Concepts of God

[RedeZra]

As time and time before

God will walk the Earth

to teach Man


for there is a Righteous way to live

a life like God


All the Collective ever is a portion of God's Consciousness

what was what is and what will be


that's why He knows us better than ourselves


He is beyond the three times

past present and future

the Eternal Now


the Spirit within without above below

blowing like the wind

nowhere now here


the Mover of Man and the Motion of Nations

the Greater Sum of all the parts


the Soul's journey and joy

the ultimate Destiny


Now all is not Roses but thorns too


Our Culture of a Cross and a Crown of Thorns

Ancient premonitions and amnesty for the coming shedding of blood


for we are free to choose

but we are not free

no not at all

from the consequences of our choices


So again and again

God will descend

to show Man

the Right way

to Himself

[14 Chakras]

For me, it is a very big "Aha" understanding that "He" / "God" that will walk the earth and that is spoken of in lovely poem above, is my very own, and your very own "I AM Presence".

God will indeed walk the earth consciously, and it will do so through YOU ~ through us !

"God's" greatest desire is that we remember God lives in us and I and my Father are One and God BEs through me ~ We are the Body of God ~ As above so below ~ We will do the works that Jesus did only greater works than these we will do ~ in reality there is no separation ~ The abomination of desolation in the holy place of authority where it aught not has been removed ~ the human ego is no longer in control ~ Christ Consciousness has been born in the Suns and Daughters of God ~ The Great Awakening ~~~~~ We are Awakening to our true roles as Co-creators with the infinite ~~~~~ The eternal Now made Manifest on Earth ~~~~ Golden Age made Manifest through US ~~~~ Those who choose to BE will BE ~~~ BEing ~~~ the illusion of separation and victim consciousness has been transmuted and replaced with the Truth that has set us FREE to BE ~~~~

[RedeZra]

Originally Posted by 14 Chakras

For me, it is a very big "Aha" understanding that "He" / "God" that will walk the earth and that is spoken of in lovely poem above, is my very own, and your very own "I AM Presence".

God will indeed walk the earth consciously, and it will do so through YOU ~ through us !

Yes

Our very own

I AM Presence


Absolute and Aware


the I Am Presence within Man is easily accessible

but it is not so easy to stay aware and awake in It


the I Am Presence is wide awake above the realms of Mind

and from time to time the I Am incarnates and interacts with Man



clothing the costume of a body

looking like any other Man

while walking the Earth

to teach to culture to awake


only the Awake

can shake the sleepers and the slumbers

to the Royal state of Reality


for it's just another illusion

to believe to be awake

when one is really dreaming


God is always walking with and within Man as the I Am Presence

and Sometimes Some awakes to this Reality

and Sometimes the I Am comes to walk with Man

[RedeZra]

We do not choose

the time of life's enter and exit

these things are not entirely up to us


this is God's pastime


what on Earth are we doing here

We are gathering and burning Karma


As the saying goes

the twice born goes to perdition

for he will accumulate Karma

in an endless succession of birth and death


until he refines

[RedeZra]

the Supreme Spirit is the Sovereign


the Supreme Spirit's Great Pastime and Play is the Creativity of Creation


who am I

that is the question

that will need an answer


in the meantime enjoy the scene

for it is a play

[greybeard]

Love your way with words RedZra.
The Advaita Sage the late Ramesh Balsekar said.

God wrote the play
God produced the play
God directed the play
God is every actor in the play
God is the witness of the play.

It is up to us to enjoy the play for we are God.

Regards Chris

ps every actor has the choice as to how he plays the character in the play.

Regards Chris

[greybeard]

Perhaps we are concepts of God.
Smiling
Chris

[RedeZra]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Perhaps we are concepts of God.
Smiling
Chris

hehe I believe so

[trainedobserver]

If something like a god existed would it not be incomprehensible to the human mind? Aren't all concepts of god therefore simply products of the human imagination? Is contemplating the incomprehensible productive?

It is though a person were attempting to describe an object he has never seen performing a function he doesn't understand.

The human species only exists within a tiny sliver of space-time. While we can theoretically comprehend the system to which we belong and the subsystems comprising it we are blind to the super-system in which we constitute the subordinate systems due primarily to the problem of resource limitations. We are resource limited in data and data processing capacity. As a member of the subset we cannot comprehend the superset to which we belong because we do not and can not contain the data necessary to do so.
Example: Describe the entire alphabet only using the first five letters.

So ... it would seem to me that we must as human beings accept our limitations and recognize that we cannot possibly understand or know these things about supreme beings, gods, and the like and that any concepts of them we do hold are wholey products of our imaginations and have no basis in reality. To fail to do so makes us susceptible to our imaginations and the imaginations of others from which we might construct gods and supreme beings to both frighten and console ourselves with.

I was a Christian for over 35 years before I figured out that it all had to be the product of the human imagination fueled by human need. While I found this realization extremely difficult to swallow I nevertheless had to admit to its truth and deal with it. Its just another part of being a human being.

You may argue whether I am an atheist or an agnostic. I say I'm an atheist because I view all human concepts of god as impossible on principle. You however may say I am agnostic in that I recognize the probability that the universe itself is a living being with some sort of consciousness that although not the personal god imagined by many, might fit the bill for a supreme being of some kind although it would still remain incomprehensible.

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

If something like a god existed would it not be incomprehensible to the human mind? Aren't all concepts of god therefore simply products of the human imagination? Is contemplating the incomprehensible productive?

It is though a person were attempting to describe an object he has never seen performing a function he doesn't understand.

The human species only exists within a tiny sliver of space-time. While we can theoretically comprehend the system to which we belong and the subsystems comprising it we are blind to the super-system in which we constitute the subordinate systems due primarily to the problem of resource limitations. We are resource limited in data and data processing capacity. As a member of the subset we cannot comprehend the superset to which we belong because we do not and can not contain the data necessary to do so.
Example: Describe the entire alphabet only using the first five letters.

So ... it would seem to me that we must as human beings accept our limitations and recognize that we cannot possibly understand or know these things about supreme beings, gods, and the like and that any concepts of them we do hold are wholey products of our imaginations and have no basis in reality. To fail to do so makes us susceptible to our imaginations and the imaginations of others from which we might construct gods and supreme beings to both frighten and console ourselves with.

I was a Christian for over 35 years before I figured out that it all had to be the product of the human imagination fueled by human need. While I found this realization extremely difficult to swallow I nevertheless had to admit to its truth and deal with it. Its just another part of being a human being.

You may argue whether I am an atheist or an agnostic. I say I'm an atheist because I view all human concepts of god as impossible on principle. You however may say I am agnostic in that I recognize the probability that the universe itself is a living being with some sort of consciousness that although not the personal god imagined by many, might fit the bill for a supreme being of some kind although it would still remain incomprehensible.

Hi Trained Observer. you are of course right. All concepts are fallacious because they are by there very nature objective, they are about the subject, they are not subjective.

Dr David Hawkins was for a long while an agnostic after being a devout Christian. He got to the point where he just could not accept a god who let pain and misery happen on a massive scale. From the depth of hell he said " If there is a God I ask him for help"
In a holy instant he was enlightened.

http://www.veritaspub.com/

Thats his publishers web site.

For my self I have had the love of God descend on me unexpectedly, it is unmistakable.

I have written an account on the "Ego what is it and how to transcend it" Several others have written there of their spiritual experiences.

Regards Chris

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by greybeard

For my self I have had the love of God descend on me unexpectedly, it is unmistakable.

I would say that you have experienced something. Certainly, I have experienced what I would have described in the same manner years ago.

When we say we have experienced the love of God we are interpreting our experience using our imaginations.

It makes more sense to me to interpret those experiences in human context in human terms. This would seem to be closer to the truth than speculating about an "other" we imagine to be all encompassing in his being and nature but which cannot know by the very definition we have attributed to "it".

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

I would say that you have experienced something. Certainly, I have experienced what I would have described in the same manner years ago.

When we say we have experienced the love of God we are interpreting our experience using our imaginations.

It makes more sense to me to interpret those experiences in human context in human terms. This would seem to be closer to the truth than speculating about an "other" we imagine to be all encompassing in his being and nature but which cannot know by the very definition we have attributed to "it".

Yes I can see where you are coming from.
However.
I had my life saved by the fellowship of AA.
If you read the history of AA you will see that alcholism is a fatal illness and beore the founder of AA had a spiritual awkening the recovery rate from alcholism was nil.

Since AA started millions of people have recovered are recovering and will recover from an un treatable disease called alcholism
The love of family friends etc will not stop the alcholic drinking, a Dr cant cure you,
The 12 step spiritual program of AA works through the power/love of God.
Every sober person in AA is a miracle.

You can trigger bliss states by activating parts of the brain, you ca get a high from drugs/alchol but that does not last.
Enlightenment does.
I wrote an account of Dr Hawkins state of enlightenment from one of his books in the ego thread . If you feel moved to do so have a look.

If your happy in your current belief thats great.

Regards Chris

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Yes I can see where you are coming from.
However.
I had my life saved by the fellowship of AA.

Which is of human origin. I mean no offense but you were saved by other human beings. All we have is other human beings. Your AA experience illustrates it perfectly. Spiritual experiences are all human experiences which are sometimes inexplicable given the available data, the human imagination will often construct various things about the experience in an attempt to understand it or simply fit it into our understanding of the world. You owe your sobriety not to some supernatural miracle experience by you or the founder of AA. You owe it to the experience and actions of other human beings. I hope you enjoy a long and fruitful sobriety.

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

Which is of human origin. I mean no offense but you were saved by other human beings. All we have is other human beings. Your AA experience illustrates it perfectly. Spiritual experiences are all human experiences which are sometimes inexplicable given the available data, the human imagination will often construct various things about the experience in an attempt to understand it or simply fit it into our understanding of the world. You owe your sobriety not to some supernatural miracle experience by you or the founder of AA. You owe it to the experience and actions of other human beings. I hope you enjoy a long and fruitful sobriety.

Yes but by the same token -- how come my friends wife kids Dr couldent get me sober?

You are welcome to your belief system as long as it works for you ,great.
Mine works for me and thats what it is a belief system

Ramesh said be clear. "The teaching of every sage is a concept"

The only thing that is valid is subjective experience.
Possibly the only one that every one can agree on is that "I" exist.

I wrote about Kundalini experience. I had a lot of the symptoms before I had read one word about Kundalini. Thats a subjective expeience.

When one thing happens its a "May be so"
When you get more that the average number of "coincidences then thats a little different

Basically I think we agree on most things except the proof of a God.

The mind does what it does I am not the mind.
The body breathes in and out by itself I cant stop it for more than a few moments.
Its not me.

The question is "What am I"

I believe what mystics have said since time immemorial.
We are all waves of the Divine ocean.

Regards Chris

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Yes but by the same token -- how come my friends wife kids Dr couldent get me sober?

The fact that AA has a method or technique that works is pretty evident by the number of people they help. They have a method that works irregardless of what you view as your "higher power" is the answer.

The mind does what it does I am not the mind.
The body breathes in and out by itself I cant stop it for more than a few moments.
Its not me.
The question is "What am I"
I believe what mystics have said since time immemorial.
We are all waves of the Divine ocean.
Regards Chris

But in truth Chris, what you think of as yourself (the illusionary perceived self) is just another part of your mind. The object and subject are in fact the same. The bit that asks "Who am I?" is just part of the mind constructed to give us our "self perspective".

Peace and all that man. Its a personal thing. Everybody has to figure this out for themselves in some way. It isn't anything that can be explained anyway it has to be personally realized. The truth about reality cannot be communicated it has to be personally experienced or realized to be understood. I think you would agree with me on that point.

Have a good one.

[RedeZra]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

If something like a god existed would it not be incomprehensible to the human mind?

yes

but to be incomprehensible to the human mind

does not exclude the existence

of what we cannot comprehend

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by RedeZra

yes

but to be incomprehensible to the human mind

does not exclude the existence

of what we cannot comprehend

If we cannot comprehend something then we cannot know of its existence. If we construct something that we can comprehend, like all known concepts of god, then by simple virtue of its nature it cannot be a true representation of that which we seek to describe. It is a logical if not a mathematical impossibility. To spend much time contemplating things (our placing our hopes in them) that might exist outside of our ability to comprehend might be an amusing exercise but certainly no real actionable data can be extracted from it and I don't see that it helps me personally cope with the reality I have to deal with day to day.

[RedeZra]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

If we cannot comprehend something then we cannot know of its existence.

we cannot comprehend energy still we can make practical use of it

I say the Sages make practical use of God

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by RedeZra

we cannot comprehend energy still we can make practical use of it

I say the Sages make practical use of God

And I would say that the Sages make a practical use out of a human concept which has no bearing on reality outside of the human mind. God is just another tool (a humanly constructed thing than can be utilized to perform work) the human being uses to make sense out of reality.

[RedeZra]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

And I would say that the Sages make a practical use out of a human concept which has no bearing on reality outside of the human mind.

I know you would say that

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by RedeZra

I know you would say that

Peace.

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

Peace.

We are having fun.

How about the Hindenburg principal?
The moment an experiment is observed it changes.
The wave factor collapses.
The non linear becomes linear.
The un-manifest becomes manifest.

The only thing that dosent change is that which looks through the eyes

How about the intelligence that creates the body? The nose ends up where it is supposed to be.

What about atoms in movement? The stone is alive -- or at least composed of moving atoms.

If we think we created ourselves and everything in the universe thats extreme vanity ie ego. If we thing it came about without supreme intelligence just a random happening thats ignorance..

Anyway I am just enjoying the eternal moment.
I dont mind what anyone else believes. I know what I know.

Thanks for wishing me well with sobriety Trained Observer 35 years now.
I am so fortunate.


Regards Chris

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by greybeard

The only thing that dosent change is that which looks through the eyes

I am familiar with this teaching but I have come to think that is not true. It is an illusion. The observer (that which looks through the eyes) is merely another part of the mind itself. The mind is created moment by moment by the human brain/nervous system. The 3D virtual reality we experience which is made up of the perceived world, the perceived physical self, the perceived inner mental dialog, and the perceived observer (that which looks through the eyes) are all one and the same mind constructed of brain/mind-stuff. One can enter into dis-associative states that can intensify the sensation of separateness but this is not true illumination or enlightenment. True 'enlightenment' (IMHO) is seeing these apparent separate parts as one and yourself.

How about the intelligence that creates the body? The nose ends up where it is supposed to be.

Evolutionary processes is the short answer.

What about atoms in movement? The stone is alive -- or at least composed of moving atoms.

Short answer - The true nature of the real world on the other side of senses is truly unknown since we cannot directly experience it.

If we think we created ourselves and everything in the universe thats extreme vanity ie ego.

I certainly don't think we created ourselves.

If we thing it came about without supreme intelligence just a random happening thats ignorance..

That's your opinion and you are welcome to it my friend. I do not hold that opinion myself. If there is a 'supreme intelligence' it most certainly is nothing like anything the human brain has dreamed up. How could it be? Human beings discussing 'supreme intelligences' and the like is akin to the Society for the Blind and Deaf reviewing the movie Avatar. No valid frame of reference exists.

[greybeard]

Quote from my friend.
That's your opinion and you are welcome to it my friend. I do not hold that opinion myself. If there is a 'supreme intelligence' it most certainly is nothing like anything the human brain has dreamed up. How could it be? Human beings discussing 'supreme intelligences' and the like is akin to the Society for the Blind and Deaf reviewing the movie Avatar. No valid frame of reference exists.

Yes no human valid frame of reference is possible --- thats the point.

No words can do justice to whatever brought about evolution creation life itself.

Language is just pointing to it is not it.
You may well give an accurate description of the taste pf a banana but till you experience for your self its really meaning less and even then its what your mind tells you, being aware without comment is a different state.

Regards Chris

[mudra]

I tried to find Him on the Christian cross, but He was not there; I went to the Temple of the Hindus and to the old pagoda, but I could not find a trace of Him anywhere.

I searched the mountains and the valleys but neither in the heights nor in the depths was I able to find Him. I went to the Kaaba in Mecca, but He was not there either.

I questioned the scholars and philosophers, but He was beyond their understanding.

I then looked into my heart and it was there where He dwelled that I saw him; He was nowhere else to be found.

Jalaluddin Rumi

What the mind does'nt understand the heart will

Love from me
mudra