Concepts of God

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

If something like a god existed would it not be incomprehensible to the human mind? Aren't all concepts of god therefore simply products of the human imagination? Is contemplating the incomprehensible productive?

It is though a person were attempting to describe an object he has never seen performing a function he doesn't understand.

The human species only exists within a tiny sliver of space-time. While we can theoretically comprehend the system to which we belong and the subsystems comprising it we are blind to the super-system in which we constitute the subordinate systems due primarily to the problem of resource limitations. We are resource limited in data and data processing capacity. As a member of the subset we cannot comprehend the superset to which we belong because we do not and can not contain the data necessary to do so.
Example: Describe the entire alphabet only using the first five letters.

So ... it would seem to me that we must as human beings accept our limitations and recognize that we cannot possibly understand or know these things about supreme beings, gods, and the like and that any concepts of them we do hold are wholey products of our imaginations and have no basis in reality. To fail to do so makes us susceptible to our imaginations and the imaginations of others from which we might construct gods and supreme beings to both frighten and console ourselves with.

I was a Christian for over 35 years before I figured out that it all had to be the product of the human imagination fueled by human need. While I found this realization extremely difficult to swallow I nevertheless had to admit to its truth and deal with it. Its just another part of being a human being.

You may argue whether I am an atheist or an agnostic. I say I'm an atheist because I view all human concepts of god as impossible on principle. You however may say I am agnostic in that I recognize the probability that the universe itself is a living being with some sort of consciousness that although not the personal god imagined by many, might fit the bill for a supreme being of some kind although it would still remain incomprehensible.

Hi Trained Observer. you are of course right. All concepts are fallacious because they are by there very nature objective, they are about the subject, they are not subjective.

Dr David Hawkins was for a long while an agnostic after being a devout Christian. He got to the point where he just could not accept a god who let pain and misery happen on a massive scale. From the depth of hell he said " If there is a God I ask him for help"
In a holy instant he was enlightened.

http://www.veritaspub.com/

Thats his publishers web site.

For my self I have had the love of God descend on me unexpectedly, it is unmistakable.

I have written an account on the "Ego what is it and how to transcend it" Several others have written there of their spiritual experiences.

Regards Chris

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by greybeard

For my self I have had the love of God descend on me unexpectedly, it is unmistakable.

I would say that you have experienced something. Certainly, I have experienced what I would have described in the same manner years ago.

When we say we have experienced the love of God we are interpreting our experience using our imaginations.

It makes more sense to me to interpret those experiences in human context in human terms. This would seem to be closer to the truth than speculating about an "other" we imagine to be all encompassing in his being and nature but which cannot know by the very definition we have attributed to "it".

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

I would say that you have experienced something. Certainly, I have experienced what I would have described in the same manner years ago.

When we say we have experienced the love of God we are interpreting our experience using our imaginations.

It makes more sense to me to interpret those experiences in human context in human terms. This would seem to be closer to the truth than speculating about an "other" we imagine to be all encompassing in his being and nature but which cannot know by the very definition we have attributed to "it".

Yes I can see where you are coming from.
However.
I had my life saved by the fellowship of AA.
If you read the history of AA you will see that alcholism is a fatal illness and beore the founder of AA had a spiritual awkening the recovery rate from alcholism was nil.

Since AA started millions of people have recovered are recovering and will recover from an un treatable disease called alcholism
The love of family friends etc will not stop the alcholic drinking, a Dr cant cure you,
The 12 step spiritual program of AA works through the power/love of God.
Every sober person in AA is a miracle.

You can trigger bliss states by activating parts of the brain, you ca get a high from drugs/alchol but that does not last.
Enlightenment does.
I wrote an account of Dr Hawkins state of enlightenment from one of his books in the ego thread . If you feel moved to do so have a look.

If your happy in your current belief thats great.

Regards Chris

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Yes I can see where you are coming from.
However.
I had my life saved by the fellowship of AA.

Which is of human origin. I mean no offense but you were saved by other human beings. All we have is other human beings. Your AA experience illustrates it perfectly. Spiritual experiences are all human experiences which are sometimes inexplicable given the available data, the human imagination will often construct various things about the experience in an attempt to understand it or simply fit it into our understanding of the world. You owe your sobriety not to some supernatural miracle experience by you or the founder of AA. You owe it to the experience and actions of other human beings. I hope you enjoy a long and fruitful sobriety.

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

Which is of human origin. I mean no offense but you were saved by other human beings. All we have is other human beings. Your AA experience illustrates it perfectly. Spiritual experiences are all human experiences which are sometimes inexplicable given the available data, the human imagination will often construct various things about the experience in an attempt to understand it or simply fit it into our understanding of the world. You owe your sobriety not to some supernatural miracle experience by you or the founder of AA. You owe it to the experience and actions of other human beings. I hope you enjoy a long and fruitful sobriety.

Yes but by the same token -- how come my friends wife kids Dr couldent get me sober?

You are welcome to your belief system as long as it works for you ,great.
Mine works for me and thats what it is a belief system

Ramesh said be clear. "The teaching of every sage is a concept"

The only thing that is valid is subjective experience.
Possibly the only one that every one can agree on is that "I" exist.

I wrote about Kundalini experience. I had a lot of the symptoms before I had read one word about Kundalini. Thats a subjective expeience.

When one thing happens its a "May be so"
When you get more that the average number of "coincidences then thats a little different

Basically I think we agree on most things except the proof of a God.

The mind does what it does I am not the mind.
The body breathes in and out by itself I cant stop it for more than a few moments.
Its not me.

The question is "What am I"

I believe what mystics have said since time immemorial.
We are all waves of the Divine ocean.

Regards Chris

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Yes but by the same token -- how come my friends wife kids Dr couldent get me sober?

The fact that AA has a method or technique that works is pretty evident by the number of people they help. They have a method that works irregardless of what you view as your "higher power" is the answer.

The mind does what it does I am not the mind.
The body breathes in and out by itself I cant stop it for more than a few moments.
Its not me.
The question is "What am I"
I believe what mystics have said since time immemorial.
We are all waves of the Divine ocean.
Regards Chris

But in truth Chris, what you think of as yourself (the illusionary perceived self) is just another part of your mind. The object and subject are in fact the same. The bit that asks "Who am I?" is just part of the mind constructed to give us our "self perspective".

Peace and all that man. Its a personal thing. Everybody has to figure this out for themselves in some way. It isn't anything that can be explained anyway it has to be personally realized. The truth about reality cannot be communicated it has to be personally experienced or realized to be understood. I think you would agree with me on that point.

Have a good one.