JAMES: The WingMakers Interview on Camelot

[ENdJOY]

"Observance of Source in All Things is the principle that all manifestations of life convey an expression of First Source. It does not matter how far the unifying energy has been distorted or perverted; the Source can be observed. It is the action of perceiving the unification of energy even when the outward manifestations appear random, distorted, unrelated, or chaotic."

http://www.wingmakers.com/philosophy1.html

[Shanders]

Has anyone read the material at www.xeeatwelve.com I have found many similarities between James interview info and the material presented on this website. This website goes well into the Annunaki creators and their programmed prison that keeps light beings trapped within the system. The system is described as 12 pentagon shaped universes facing inside a dodecahedron shaped sphere creating the virtual reality's within virtual realities that James described. The light beings, who were pure and unaccustomed to deception, were tricked inside before the door slammed shut so to speak, at which time they were forced into an endless cycle of death and reincarnation.

http://www.xeeatwelve.com/articles/t...pentagons.html

It is an interesting read and while no one has the whole truth many hold a piece.

In Peace

Shanders

[Czymra]

On the issue of slaves, I've just come across this brilliant quote from Gregg Braden's Beyond Zero Point

[Blessing is] the ancient promise given by those who have come before us; that each soul survives the 'darkest' moments of life, to return home once again, intact and with grace.

I thought that's a nice round off. Then again, is this inside our outside the HMS?

[ENdJOY]

I have always thought that Gregg Braden has a Sovereign Integral's perspective. In the Q and As in the website, James says that there are less than a dozen members of the LTO scattered withIN the Hierarchy, (because they can actually make changes only if they are inside) and Gregg is doing more than any mainstream scientist, I know of, to bring religion and science together, IMO more than anyone else...sure, what Scientist would want to discover the "soul"... my money is on Gregg actually doing it... he blew my mind with the "God Code"

I think Ron Paul might have a Sovereign Integral's perspective focused on politics...wow, he is one straight shooter and appears to be bullet proof.

James also says that there are almost 100,000 incarnates here now, that loosely walking the walk... that is good to know, at least I think so and I was very encouraged when he said that we were reaching a "critical mass" in the PC interview...here is the quote, snipped from A 21

As more individual expressions align to First Source, and dedicate their self-expression as an outflow from the Sovereign Integral, this new awareness and capability transfers to all life. In other words, the Quantum Presence transmits, and as it transmits, it transforms the whole. To be sure, this is a process and takes eons of time, but it is now reaching a critical mass within Earth, Nature and humanity.

snipped from Question 17 in session 3 on the website (link below)

That said, I understand the nature of your question, and I will give you some general guidelines. There are slightly fewer than 100,000 initiates who are presently incarnated upon earth who are following the Wisdom Path loosely established by the Hierarchy. That is to say, they are following the principles as set forth by the masters and practicing these principles in their day-to-day life. Not impeccably, but with the human qualities of inconsistency.

However, within the next three generations, an influx of advanced souls will be incarnating within terra-earth. We call this influx: Symmetry of Spheres. These advanced souls (most from outside this solar system) will be encoded with predispositions of transformation. By the year 2080, they will be over 200 million strong. These are the transformers who will bring symmetry to the asymmetrical physical and emotional realms. It will be the leaders of this movement that will be responsible for the discovery and irrefutable proof of the human soul.

this comes from Answer 14

I will tell you that there are approximately 165 masters (6th initiates and above) who are physically present on terra-earth, and who operate as the vanguard of the spiritual corps, mostly through ashramic activities. There are some masters who have ventured outside of the relative anonymity and protection of the ashram, but these number less than a dozen, and apart from one name, you would not recognize them ...

http://www.wingmakers.com/answersfromjames.html

[asteram]

Transparency

I consider George Gurdjieff the "father" of my outlook towards self realization; before I came across his methods in my late teens I had already looked in a number of places that required a bit too much to be taken on faith or swallowed entire, all or nothing. Gurdjieff taught the fourth way, the way of the sly fox. One takes what one can use from whatever source.

I first heard of the Wingmakers material in 1998, gave one of the interviews a perfunctory look, and dismissed it as another of the alien contact accounts the likes of which I had read often before. Then in the summer of 2000 an old friend handed me a hardcopy printout of the interviews and supporting material from the site, saying they thought I might find it interesting. I started reading it and began to understand the story for the first time, though I didn't find it convincing or see any need to believe it or disbelieve it. I found it entertaining but not greatly so, until I came to the Life Principles of the Sovereign Integral. That got my attention, and has held it ever since:

"The entity model of expression is designed to explore new fields of vibration through biological instruments and transform through this process of discovery to a new level of understanding and expression as a Sovereign Integral. The Sovereign Integral is the fullest expression of the entity model within the time/space universes, and most closely exemplifies Source Intelligence's capabilities therein. It is also the natural state of existence of the entity that has transformed beyond the the evolution/saviorship model of existence and has removed itself from the controlling aspects of the Hierarchy through the complete activation of its embedded Source Codes. This is the level of capability that was "seeded" within the entity model of expression when it was initially conceived by Prime Creator........

The transformational experience is the realization that the entity model of expression is capable of direct access to Source Intelligence information, and that the information of Prime Creator is discovered within the entity level of the Sovereign Integral. In other words, the human instrument, complete with its biological, emotional, and mental capabilities, is not the repository of the entity's Source Codes........

....... Source Reality and sovereign reality become inseparable as wind and air. This confluence is realized only through the transformational experience, which is unlike anything known within the time-space universes.

There have been those upon terra-earth who have experienced a shallow breath of wind from this powerful tempest. Some have called it ascension, others have attributed names like illumination, vision, enlightenment, nirvana, and cosmic consciousness. While these experiences are profound in human standards, they are only the initial stirrings of the Sovereign Integral........What most species define as the ultimate bliss is merely the impression of the Sovereign Integral whispering to its outposts of form.....

The transformational experience is far beyond the calibration of the human drama much like the stars in the sky are beyond the touch of terra-earth."

What was this?? This was not anything I had been exposed to before:

transformed beyond the the evolution/saviorship model of existence?

removed itself from the controlling aspects of the Hierarchy?

the complete activation of its embedded Source Codes?

No evolution or savior needed? No Hierarchy either? And the human instrument is not the repository of what Source Codes?

This was new. This was very new. In 2000 I was 48 years old. I had read and studied hard; attended, for years, an esoteric school that imposed harsh disciplines; opened and experienced the seven seals, wandered alone in the wilderness, taken all of the plants and drugs to experience alternate doors of perception. I had never come across these concepts before.

The daring! The nerve of making the claim that the highest spiritual experiences of humanity were merely a shallow breath of wind! That one could move beyond the control of the spiritual Hierarchy! Heresy was what it was, and it charmed this born heretic to his toes. This was not your grandmother's enlightenment.

Reading further, the heresy became, well, even more heretical, culminating in this outrageous equation:

Entity + Source Intelligence = Prime Creator equality.

*******

Already this is too long a post. I'll end it with the observation that there is much, much more to the WingMakers than the criticisms being leveled here so far. What do you know of the transformation of body consciousness that happens through dancing to the music of seven chambers? Where are these Source Codes embedded if they are not embedded in the human instrument? How is the tone/vibration of equality perceived and in what direction is its source?

[milk and honey]

Originally Posted by asteram

TRANSPARENCY

I found it (WMM) entertaining but not greatly so, until I came to the Life Principles of the Sovereign Integral. That got my attention, and has held it ever since:

[I]"The entity model of expression is designed to explore new fields of vibration through biological instruments and transform through this process of discovery to a new level of understanding and expression as a Sovereign Integral."

True. Nothing new here. Elohim created billions of lifestreams in God's image. Each individal I AM Presence ("Sovereign Integral") was created as a fractal of the ONE. Each I AM Presence then projected a soul into materiality (into biological instruments) to experience the vibrational fields of matter. By doing so, each I AM Presence could express Itself Both in Spirit AND matter to the extent that the soul awakens and gives expression to it's source... the I AM.

Originally Posted by asteram

"The Sovereign Integral is the fullest expression of the entity model within the time/space universes, and most closely exemplifies Source Intelligence's capabilities therein."

True. Nothing new here either. The I AM Presence / the Father / Brahma / Sovereign Integral / is actually 'rooted' beyond the time/space universes in the spiritual universe. It's Will is to (vibrationallly) descend into the receptive soul and express the Whole Identity through the 'cup' of matter to "fill the earth (plane) with the glow-ray of the LORD" (the I AM).

Originally Posted by asteram

"It is also the natural state of existence of the entity that has transformed beyond the the evolution/saviorship model of existence and has removed itself from the controlling aspects of the Hierarchy through the complete activation of its embedded Source Codes. This is the level of capability that was "seeded" within the entity model of expression when it was initially conceived by Prime Creator........

In this paragraph James is trying to use one concept of truth - which i've already established is nothing new - to give a backhander to 3 more concepts of truth. His desire to excise the 'familiar' is evident throughout the whole WMM. He has established his own brands for age old concepts which he has mis-defined and mis-represented with such surgical precision i am sure it's deliberate. To explain:

1) Evolution -- James speaks of the soul's spiritual awakening as the "activation of source codes" which is basically just another new brand for the chakras. The awakening of the soul (to the I AM) is a process that comes to a point of "combustion" and rapid acceleration of the evolution of the soul. In truth, the soul realises the I AM by degrees until conscious Oneness is perfected. That is why the process has been called "the Path". The soul evolves by a process of initiation to attain full realisation of the "Godhead" as Self. The chakras are activated by the spiritual self in the process.

To dismiss the concept of 'evolution' where it relates to the soul's journey back to (the self-realisation of) God is semantic rubbish. It allows James to pretend that everyone else who ever referred to the term 'evolution' for spiritual growth is less evolved than himself who, as he loves to presume, is uniquely wise in these matters.

2) Saviorship -- Although he was the "messiah" prophesied in the old texts, Jesus never taught the fundamentalist christian misunderstanding that his human personality is the "savior" of the world. He taught that the 'saviour' is within you. So, while James has every right to dismiss the fundamentalist misunderstanding of the term "savior' he has no right, in truth, to join them in fuelling a misconception which a) Jesus never taught; and b) which has already been exhaustively explained by Jesus and other adepts ever since. The inner-Christ is our saviour. Salvation (self-elevation) can only be found within, by degrees, as our souls evolve on the path of self-transcendence.

Are we to intellectually dismiss any teaching that uses concepts like 'spirit/soul/God'? evolution? Saviorship? James hopes so. "It's all passe you know. Just an "old model, time for a trade in"

Obviously it's not passe, they're just different terms describing the same ideas that James has rebranded.

3) Hierarchy -- A prior post quoted James'/WM as saying: "

... there are slightly fewer than 100,000 initiates who are presently incarnated on earth who are following the Wisdom Path loosely established by the Hierarchy, that is to say they are following the principles set forth by the masters...

He acknowledges a positive Cosmic "Hierarchy" here but in the quote above it (written in red) the 'WM' speak of the entity having transformed itself from the controlling aspects of the "Hierarchy". No differentiation is made in the 'WM' terminology between the true Cosmic Hierarchy and the controlling "false hierarchy". They are both referred to as "Hierarchy". This is unusual for the 'WM's usually technical lexicon. I believe the reason for that is deliberate but subtle.

James' 'WM' assert that everyone is "equal". (So did the Communist Manifesto if i recall.) The 'WM' refer to "Hierarchy" in the same regard, they're "equal" too. And let's not forget to include the "false hierarchy of the NWO" in the term: "Hierarchy" because they're equal too right?" They're "equal" to each other, "equal" to the true cosmic "Hierarchy" and of course "equal" to you and me. If the 'WM' are taken at 'their' word, everyone in the entire multiverse is "equal".

Of course none of that is true. After all, individual attainment is fundamental to the concept of true Hierarchy - but what wonderful fodder can be made from the concept of human "equality" based on the lie of cosmic equality. Yes, every individual and his/her works (karmic energy) is made from the same essential "stuff" and each soul has the same origin, ie... the individual I AM Presence. But each has expressed freewill differently. Consequently, quality varies enormously on earth and in the multiiverse. There is a vast difference between a demon entity in the lower astral plane who has misqualified all it's energy and a cosmic Creator in Cosmic Hierarchy who has qualified IT'S energy as intended to serve Cosmic purpose.

Why emphasise "equality" so much? Why pretend Hierarchy are "equal"?

In a nutshell the 'WM' scammers are retaining for themselves and their 'human representatives' in a NWO, the priveledge of Hierarchical position on earth - therefore they acknowledge 'Hierarchy' in their cosmology - yet they will insist on "equality" for everyone else on earth. Anyone not "for them" who raises their "unequal" heads above the mob will be accused of trying to create a "false hierarchy" when in actual fact it is they (the NWO's 'WM) who are (even now) a part of a false hierarchy. They will try to accuse you of the same thing they are doing themselves. Everyone in communist Russia and China were "equal" too, just some were more "equal" than others, if you get my drift. If you didn't swallow their whole philosophical foundation and every single policy which sprung from it YOU were labelled a "reactionary" and removed from the crowd. YOU were "weak minded", "lazy hearted", "attacking the system", "not up to the challenge" of utopia building .... yes YOU were "undiscerning".

There is no equality so the only means to pretend there is is to enforce equality.

These phony utopias always promise "equality" at a high standard of living for all but they always shatter their promises (as intended) by maintaining their own "false hierarchy" who cream the wealth as they've always done. But first they must give us a philosophy we can "believe in", something to rally around, something to feel superior about. Something "brand new."

Originally Posted by asteram

"The transformational experience is the realization that the entity model of expression is capable of direct access to Source Intelligence information, and that the information of Prime Creator is discovered within the entity level of the Sovereign Integral. In other words, the human instrument, complete with its biological, emotional, and mental capabilities, is not the repository of the entity's Source Codes........"

True. Nothing new here except another new name, "source codes". The human instrument is not the source of the I AM Presence wherein the soul has access to all information. Likewise the I AM Presence is not the source of IT'S creator.

Originally Posted by asteram

"....... Source Reality and sovereign reality become inseparable as wind and air.

The I AM Presence is one with IT'S Source. Yet the soul, haven fallen in vibration and consciousness, is not resonant and conscious of Oneness with the I AM until it changes it's negative orientation. When the soul awakens to the I AM and loves the inner Presence more that it's habitual appetites (of egoism) then the 2 will become inseperable.

Originally Posted by asteram

"This confluence is realized only through the transformational experience, which is unlike anything known within the time-space universes.'

All who've spoken of the experience of "confluence" / Oneness" have exulted in it's transformational and unique character. Some of these people have actually had the experience and others have not.

Originally Posted by asteram

"There have been those upon terra-earth who have experienced a shallow breath of wind from this powerful tempest. Some have called it ascension, others have attributed names like illumination, vision, enlightenment, nirvana, and cosmic consciousness. While these experiences are profound in human standards, they are only the initial stirrings of the Sovereign Integral........What most species define as the ultimate bliss is merely the impression of the Sovereign Integral whispering to its outposts of form....."

As the adepts have always taught. The soul is evolving on the spiritual path. The breath of spirit may be shallow at first as the soul awakens to the inner Presence. But the experience leads to greater degrees of initiation and realisation of Source. Countless souls have successfully been through that. By presuming to know the depth of others' experience James gives the impression of one who knows. Of course there's a difference between a shallow breath and the Giver of life itself. The adepts did not mistake the sun's rays for the sun itself. Jesus who ascended, Guatama who attained nirvana and Yogananda who attained cosmic-consciousness (to name 3 teachers) were all ONE with "true identity". What James refers to as the Sovereign Integral and what those 3 adepts referred to as Christ, Buddha and the Divine Beloved are one and the same "true identity". By denying that, who does James think he is fooling?

Why belittle their terms? Why pretend they experienced inferior states of consciousness to the real thing? James' assertions are clever for their purpose. First he says, "a shallow (spiritual) breath is not full realisation of the real thing." Of couse not, so that's agreeable... then it's all downhill from there. Next, "the shallow breath was really just nirvana, cosmic-consciousness, ascension" which are really "just profound by human standards but not the real thing"... "they're just the initial stirrings of the "SI". No they are not. James is trying to bellitle the adepts teachings with his superior dismissals so he can strip people of the value they may have found elsewhere. Or he's injecting triggers aimed at people who are yet to find the adepts teachings. He wants our undivided attention and will discredit anything to capture it.

Originally Posted by asteram

"The transformational experience is far beyond the calibration of the human drama much like the stars in the sky are beyond the touch of terra-earth."

I've heard that description many times.

Originally Posted by asteram

What was this?? This was not anything I had been exposed to before:

transformed beyond the the evolution/saviorship model of existence?

removed itself from the controlling aspects of the Hierarchy?

the complete activation of its embedded Source Codes?

No evolution or savior needed? No Hierarchy either? And the human instrument is not the repository of what Source Codes?

We have not been exposed to such distortion, theft and discredting of so many well established truth concepts in a while, thats for sure.

Originally Posted by asteram

This was new. This was very new. In 2000 I was 48 years old. I had read and studied hard; attended, for years, an esoteric school that imposed harsh disciplines; opened and experienced the seven seals, wandered alone in the wilderness, taken all of the plants and drugs to experience alternate doors of perception. I had never come across these concepts before.

The daring! The nerve of making the claim that the highest spiritual experiences of humanity were merely a shallow breath of wind! That one could move beyond the control of the spiritual Hierarchy! Heresy was what it was, and it charmed this born heretic to his toes. This was not your grandmother's enlightenment.

Maybe you only found false teachers who misrepresented the truth of the ages. Your grandmother probably knows better than James.

The nerve alright. I'd have said "The gaul".

You won't move beyond the spiritual Hierarchy, you will take your place in it. You will hopefully move beyond the false hierarchy though. ie, the NWO, their astral counterparts and all imposters of the true Hierarchy on earth.

Originally Posted by asteram

Reading further, the heresy became, well, even more heretical, culminating in this outrageous equation:

Entity + Source Intelligence = Prime Creator equality.

This is not exactly heresy. You will reach the attainment of your Creator. Your Creator will have moved on to greater attainment. We are part of the 'Tree of Life'. All are growing. The same river runs through all. But equality is an illusion in a universe of freewill and growth.

*******

[milk and honey]

I finished and edited the above post after it submitted itself when only half finished.

[ENdJOY]

It may be, that some are confusing "equality" with "sameness"... and while the Entity (fragmented, individulated consciousness of FS) is identical ... by design, it is just as Unique as FS.

The fragmentation of FS, allowed it to have unique experiences, through out the process we call evolution. One lifetime contributes to the wholeness of the individual's uniqueness, which in turn contributes to the expansion and evolution of First Source Intelligence.

Without you I am unable to evolve. Without me, you are unable to exist. This is our eternal bond. It was and is my desire to evolve that gave you existence. We, collectively, are the conjoint vessel of creation and exploration. We are the boldness of the uncharted journey and the imaginative energy of the out-picturing of new realities. We are the image of an ascending, infinite, expanding spiral that is created segment by segment by itself. We are inseparable – each the window of the other.

http://www.wingmakers.com/mycentralpurpose.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am not familiar with this quote you ascribe to James:

James hopes so. "It's all passe you know. Just an "old model, time for a trade in"

please tell us where it can be found

While it is true, that the WMMs, suggest that we adopt a "new model of existence"... that model is inclusive of others, with the exception of not being tied or limited by them.

This is the experiment of transformation verses evolution. Evolution is the arduous and ongoing process of shifting positions within the hierarchy -- always assessing your present position in relation to a new one that beckons you. Transformation is simply the recognition that there are accelerated pathways that bypass the hierarchy leading to sovereign mastership rather than interdependent saviorship, and that these new pathways can be accessed through direct experience of the equality tone-vibration that is present within all entities.

(same link as above)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The WMMs are not exclusive, nor are they forced upon anyone:

Every human is able, in varying degrees, to peer beneath the surface reality of life and perceive and express their personal interpretations of the Universe of Wholeness. They require only the time and intention to develop their own interpretations. And this is precisely what all the great spiritual leaders have taught. Life's deeper meaning is not an absolute to be experienced by the chosen few, but an evolving, dynamic intelligence that wears as many faces as there are life forms. No life form or species has the exclusive portal into the Universe of Wholeness in which First Source expresses ITSELF in all ITS majesty. The portal is shared with all because First Source is within all things.

(same link as above)

Acquiring a Sovereign Integral's consciousness/perspective, is the results of free will... it does not just "happen" as we evolve...it is intitiated when we are evolved...by those who desire to progress.

Nevertheless, the human instrument is critical in facilitating the transformational experience and causing it to trigger -- like a metamorphosis -- the integration of the formful identities into the Sovereign Integral. This is the next stage of perception and expression for the entity model, and it is activated when the entity designs its reality from life principles that are symbolic of Source Reality, as opposed to the reality of an external source that is bound to the evolution/saviorship model of existence.

http://www.wingmakers.com/philosophy1.html


the "formful identities" of the SI are revealed here: Body (Human Instrument), Soul (spirit Entity consciousness), Wholeness Navigator (god fragment) Remnant Imprint (program), Phantom Core (scribe) Sovereign Integral (original design template)

http://www.wingmakers.com/anatomyofi...ciousness.html

this is what has been altered by immersing oneself in the Human Instrument

When the entity initially enters a human instrument at birth, it is immediately fragmented into a physical, emotional, and mental spectrum of perception and expression. From that day forward the entity is carefully conditioned to adapt into, and navigate within, the three-dimensional, five-sensory context of terra-earth. In effect, the entity purposely fragments its consciousness in order to experience separation from wholeness.

In this state of separation, the entity has handicapped itself for the purpose of new experience and a deeper understanding of the Primal Blueprint or grand vision of First Source. Through this deeper understanding, the entity can, through the human instrument, transform the three-dimensional context into a self-aware, integrated component of the Universe of Wholeness. This magnificent and purposeful endeavor produces the urge within the human instrument to seek out its wholeness and re-experience its divine connection to First Source.

The Entities desire to progress is based upon Free Will

Free will is not obscured simply because an entity is presented with alternative realities or relative truths that delay its realization of Source equality. It is the choice of the entity to invest itself in external accounts of reality instead of delving within its own resources and creating a reality that is sovereign. The value of free will is always expanding as you move towards sovereignty, and in like manner, is always diminishing as you move towards external dependence. The choice between sovereignty or external dependence is the basis of free will, and there is no structure or external source that can eliminate this basic choice. It is an inward choice that, regardless of outward circumstance, is incapable of being denied by anything external.

"The time has come to integrate the dominant model of the hierarchy (evolution/saviorship) with the dominant model of Source Intelligence (transformation/mastership). This integration can only be achieved at the level of the entity. It cannot occur within the context of a human instrument or an aspect of the hierarchy. Only the entity -- the wholeness of inter-dimensional sovereignty imbued with Source Intelligence -- can facilitate and fully experience the integration of these two models of existence.

This form of integration occurs when the entity fully explores the two models and develops a synthesis model that positions saviorship as an internal role of the entity to "save" itself, and not rely upon externals to perform this liberating task. This act of self-sufficiency begins to integrate the saviorship idea with the mastership realization. The next step is to integrate the time-based incremental progress of the evolutionary model with the realization-based acceptance of the transformation model. This is done when the entity is thoroughly convinced that experience and utilization of its wholeness can only occur when it is completely detached from the various structures of the hierarchy" http://www.wingmakers.com/philosophy2.html

[asteram]

milk and honey-

Thank you for the effort that you put into your well written reply. I have read it and I understand your points, but I don't find that it is relevant to my level of understanding. I'm not trying to convert or assuage anyone's skepticism. Skepticism is very healthy and I practice it regularly. The purpose of my previous post was to point out what I found intriguing when I first really read a few dozen pages of the WM material 8 1/2 years ago.


It does not appear that you have studied the WingMakers material in any depth, but that you are selecting and critiquing various small parts of a rather large body of information that has been added to regularly over a period of ten years. For example, there is no differentiation between the "true cosmic hierarchy" and your postulated false hierarchy. The hierarchy referred to is the hierarchy we know, and the slightly fewer than 100,000 initiates mentioned as following the path laid down by the masters are following exactly that traditional path, as yours truly has done, and as I would assume you are doing.

Just because I am looking beyond the hierarchy does not mean that my teachers within the hierarchy were or are charlatans. Far from it. Nor do I reject or devalue the love and effort they put into teaching me.

The Source Codes are not the Chakras. Chakra is another term for what I refer to as the seven seals. I know them from personal experience, one through seven. What the Source Codes are is what I am working on "figuring out", so to speak. It is clear to me that they are not DNA, and I have found no reference to them other than through the WingMakers materials.

Consider what the WingMakers are saying through their representative: The entire spiritual path and organization that we are referring to as the hierarchy, with all of its dimensional permutations throughout the time/space universes, is a construct. Is there anything possibly beyond that construct, so far beyond it, for instance, that even energy doesn't exist? So far outside it that all of the construct could be bypassed?

Evolution/saviorship is one path, the path of the hierarchy, and one that is known to those of us who have studied and walked that path.

The WingMakers are saying that transformation/mastership is a very different route, and it is that one that I am pursuing. If it is a sham, I will figure that out eventually, don't you think? I am no longer easily fooled regarding such matters.

[milk and honey]

Originally Posted by asteram

milk and honey-

Thank you for the effort that you put into your well written reply. I have read it and I understand your points, but I don't find that it is relevant to my level of understanding. I'm not trying to convert or assuage anyone's skepticism. Skepticism is very healthy and I practice it regularly. The purpose of my previous post was to point out what I found intriguing when I first really read a few dozen pages of the WM material 8 1/2 years ago.

Understood asteram. I appreciate you were speaking of your own first impressions. James' quotes were there so i discussed his own words.

Originally Posted by asteram

It does not appear that you have studied the WingMakers material in any depth, but that you are selecting and critiquing various small parts of a rather large body of information that has been added to regularly over a period of ten years. For example, there is no differentiation between the "true cosmic hierarchy" and your postulated false hierarchy. The hierarchy referred to is the hierarchy we know, and the slightly fewer than 100,000 initiates mentioned as following the path laid down by the masters are following exactly that traditional path, as yours truly has done, and as I would assume you are doing.

The "false hierarchy" is not merely my own potulate. It exists. The entities who comprise the "false hierarchy" are differentiated from the true christic Hierarchy by their negative orientation and vibration of anti-christ. Anywhere you care to look you will discover evidence for their abuse of power on earth through a pyramidal structure of elite families and organisations. I am speaking of the 'NWO' and all it's secret and open vassals in church and state, media, medicine, business, science, education, etc. That beast includes non-physical entities who are also hierarchically organised, worshipped by the top of the 'NWO' hierarchy and fed by the mass-consciousness.

By virtue of it's 'service to self' orientation the 'false hierarchy' has severed itself from the flow of the christ energy (within) and consequently it seeks to devour the lifeforce of all who are still receptive to source. The false hierarchy appeals to the vanity and passion of our egos in order to induce us to squander our sacred energies which re-inforces the corpse of their death paradigm. So long as we fail to identify them and their MO we will continue to reinforce it.

Originally Posted by asteram

Just because I am looking beyond the hierarchy does not mean that my teachers within the hierarchy were or are charlatans. Far from it. Nor do I reject or devalue the love and effort they put into teaching me.

I appreciate that. It's a matter of identifying the false from the true Hierarchy. You might consider the possibility that James' 'WM' are a part of the false hierarchy for the simple reason that no true spiritual teacher would misrepresent others or assert themselves utterly unique in all the personal 'powers' or assert themselves beyond true Hierarchy or teach that you yourself could do so, or sell a crowd or agenda like the 'NWO'.

The false hierarchy rarely appear as they are. They have established a familiar MO which always seems to work for them. They have always masked their activities behind a veneer of singular righteousness and service to others. Given that human beings have been largely stripped of "true identity" we tend to rely on external forces for guidance and sustenance so we have always fallen for their personalities and philosophies. They invariably veil their agenda behind props of piety and lofty principles. Should they fail to destroy a principle of truth which the people hold as axiomatic they will feign sympathy for it and add it to their own repertoir. Anything to appeal to their prey. Everything is fair game and useable as a hook to catch their prey. They have their finger on the popular pulse while spoonfeeding it with lies, feeding the soul unstoppable truths and telling us what we want to hear. Such a versatile and resposive beast will appear as it must to serve itself.

Originally Posted by asteram

The Source Codes are not the Chakras.

Not exclusively, no, but the chakras have been anchored in the 'human instrument' by the I AM and they are encoded with the I AM consciousness. In most people, except to generate negative energy, the chakras are inactive.

Originally Posted by asteram

Chakra is another term for what I refer to as the seven seals. I know them from personal experience, one through seven. What the Source Codes are is what I am working on "figuring out", so to speak. It is clear to me that they are not DNA, and I have found no reference to them other than through the WingMakers materials.

You have a sincere vibe asteram. You haven't taken offence and i appreciate it. It makes our 'figuring' a pleasure. Mostly James makes clear what he means. To me that includes his subtext which we may not agree on. Anyway, i share your understanding that "source codes" are not DNA but i believe i know what James is getting at. That's why i referred to the chakras.

Firstly, i'm sure there is nothing new in this concept of 'Source Codes' because there is nothing new in the "Divine Anatomy" of the individual. It has been well explored and well mapped. To me it's just a matter of translating his terminology for what is already understood in the experience of those who know and can be found in concepts already given. So...

"Source Codes" clearly originate in Source. What doesn't? But if the soul in the human instrument is to be activated by 'codes' what is the 'anatomy' of activation and reception? We know the 'codes' must originate in Source and are activated by same. How do the 'codes' awaken to the coscious awareness of the soul in the human instrument? The reason i referred to the chakras is because we obviously need to expand the definition of the 'human instrument' beyond a mere 'biological instrument'. And we have to take account of our own inner experience and the associated concepts already established to provide an explanation. That is what i've done, so i refer to the 'spiritual circuitry' in higher octaves of the 'human instrument' to explain how Source can activate it's 'codes' within the 'human instrument' which includes the "7 chakras" and the 3 subtle bodies beyond the biological form.

All information is code. The I AM Presence communicates coded information to the soul in matter through 'spiritual circuitry' of the 'human instrument'. And each subtle body within the circuit is "buttoned" together by the 7 major chakras to form an integrated circuit for the transfer of encoded information.

To put it only slightly differently...... In the Presence of the I AM, the white light of spirit - encoded with information - is transmitted through a cascading projection of light descending through the circuit of the 'human instrument'. When the encoded light first contacts the etheric body it refracts through the 7 chakras which are anchored at the etheric level of the 'human instrument'. Each of the 3 subtle bodies are integrated by the 7 chakras so that all bodies in the circuit contact each other at those centers and are receptive thereby to the spiritual impulse. Ideally, this is the way the I AM Presence communicates with the soul. The circuitry (source codes?) is created by the I AM.

By this point, the spiritual reception is very poor in most people because the chakras and subtle bodies have become distorted over aeons of incarnations. Because the individual has expressed so much physical, mental and emotional violence there are serious blockages of negative energy in and surrounding the chakras and subtle bodies which have disfigured the original symmetry and perfection of the whole instrument. Think of Krishna's flute. Krishna is "true identity", the flute is the 'human instrument' and the holes in the flute are the chakras through which the divine breath (encoded with Divine Song) is meant to flow. Originally Krishna fashioned them perfectly. Imagine that the holes in the flute become so clogged they occlude the flow of breath through the instrument almost entirely. The Divine One can no longer express Him / Herself through the instrument. Awful tones and horrid sounds replace the once glorious music.

In the majority of people the chakras are dark, dormant and in need of spiritual activation and cleansing. The physical brain and glandular system have consequently been so starved of spiritual communion that important glandular centres lay largely dormant for lack of spiritual stimulation. They too are in need of activation. Only the soul's source can restore the 'human instrument' / flute to it's original symmetry and perfection.

All of these self-inflicted wounds are the prison walls of the soul. All of this negative karmic energy blocking the subconscious regions of the 'human instrument' must be transmuted and changed so that we can freely breathe the breath of the holy spirit again within us. When the petals of each chakra are activated once again and are luminous with the perfume of spiritual light the karmic weight of the ages will melt away from the soul.

As you can see there is a lot to 'activate'. Are they 'source codes'? I know one thing; Spirit is the soul's source. Each element of the anatomy of self which i described is Spirit 'in-form'. The soul itself is Spirit in-form. The petals of the chakras are 'in-form-ation', the brain and glandular system are 'in-form-ation'. All in-form-ation is encoded light. There is no new thing under the sun presence of the I AM; except new brands.

Originally Posted by asteram

Consider what the WingMakers are saying through their representative: The entire spiritual path and organization that we are referring to as the hierarchy, with all of its dimensional permutations throughout the time/space universes, is a construct. Is there anything possibly beyond that construct, so far beyond it, for instance, that even energy doesn't exist? So far outside it that all of the construct could be bypassed?

Firstly, which Hierarchy is he referring to? If it is the "false hierarchy" then yes it is a false construct based on the illusion of anti-christ and consequently it can be by-passed to the spiritual realm beyond it where most of true Hierarchy dwell.

Our work is to prepare, by loving service and meditation, to become the conscious instrument of the I AM in the world of form. And when we pass on, to rise above the karmic necessity of perpetual re-incarnation.... To stay in the higher etheric realms for further development or to ascend to permanent fusion to the I AM and whatever adventures of total liberty await. Beyond that? I have enough on my plate for now, but "true identity" is no illusion. If it can be termed a "construct" then it has been "constructed" by Great Being. All can grow into their Creator and to whatever is beyond, add infinitum.

Originally Posted by asteram

Evolution/saviorship is one path, the path of the hierarchy, and one that is known to those of us who have studied and walked that path.

Those who have studied and walked that path to it's pinnacle teach that the 'savior' is one's "true identity" within. On the evolutionary path of the soul they arrived at that point of "combustion" and rapid acceleration to full identification with the I AM. They transformed themselves by the transforming power of Spiritual Identity. They attained mastership, no less.

Originally Posted by asteram

The WingMakers are saying that transformation/mastership is a very different route, and it is that one that I am pursuing. If it is a sham, I will figure that out eventually, don't you think? I am no longer easily fooled regarding such matters.

I hope so.

James is trading on semantic differences here to assert that somehow one can leapfrog the true spiritual Hierarchy into a state of Being beyond them? It betrays his fundamental ignorance, or worse.

[Czymra]

Half of the time you simply lose me with what seems to be finickiness. There is too much terminology in most of what is thrown about here, and something just doesn't feel right about it.
Nevertheless, this post was VERY enlightening. Asteram might be just the right catalyst this discussion needs.

I am not able to present my own 'system of belief' in any depth or profoundness as either of you are, and I think that is good. I have a problem with dogmas, fixed values and the idea of 'good and bad'.

So let me ask you a few questions in the hope you can give me some answers to make my own path:

As mentioned, I struggle with 'good or bad' and what you describe falls quite clearly into those categories. There is a true and a false hierarchy. There is a Christ and an Anti-Christ, there is negative energy and positive energy.
I can see how these polarities are of importance on our 'plane' but always considered that once you leave the lower planes everything just 'is'. I'm told that the spiritual masters sit there doing nothing because 'everything will be fine, it all goes it's due course. The negative and the positive play their roles to lead everybody to their realisation, eventually they are of no importance since we are all immortal anyway.'

This leads directly into what I think is called the Buddahood, the Satori or similar and as I also mentioned before this seems to tie in with Zen or Buddhism in general. It is thus exemplified that one does not ascend, one just works toward the gateless gate (James' invisible prison) and being able to pass through it. Maybe I'm just hung up with the beauty of that idea, but why is that 'wrong'?

Lastly, why is it Christ here and Krishna there and I AM in the end? Patchwork-spiritualism is clearly the nature of true discernment but you seem to be quite decisive in your terminology. Does it matter? Do words matter? Is Rock'n Roll Music really there to further satan and how could it be that those spells work? This doesn't seem to fit with the well established spiritual philosophies propagated so far, at all for the simple reason that they say 'all is one', how can you then reject another? You do not seem to be interested at all in the concept of 'the world is your mirror'.

Nevertheless, I have come to be convinced that evil cloaks in the most positive dresses and I am thus extremely weary. This section expresses my thoughts on this better than I could do it myself.

The false hierarchy rarely appear as they are. They have established a familiar MO which always seems to work for them. They have always masked their activities behind a veneer of singular righteousness and service to others. Given that human beings have been largely stripped of "true identity" we tend to rely on external forces for guidance and sustenance so we have always fallen for their personalities and philosophies. They invariably veil their agenda behind props of piety and lofty principles. Should they fail to destroy a principle of truth which the people hold as axiomatic they will feign sympathy for it and add it to their own repertoir. Anything to appeal to their prey. Everything is fair game and useable as a hook to catch their prey. They have their finger on the popular pulse while spoonfeeding it with lies, feeding the soul unstoppable truths and telling us what we want to hear. Such a versatile and resposive beast will appear as it must to serve itself.

You say to identify the 'false hierarchy' and I completely with you on that regard. However, what then?

Thanks,
Czymra

[ENdJOY]

a prerequisite to the Sovereign Integrals' perspective, is to shift ones self from the savior/student model of existence, by releasing one's dependency upon any hierarchy... this means moving into the Mastership model of existence where the indiviual is no longer "stuck" in a dualistic world... there is no good or bad, dark or light, everything is manifested from the same matter by the same energy... they are two sides of ONE coin.

good and bad are values your perspective/experience/programing gives via judgment to any given issue... there is good and bad in everything...it just depends upon what you are looking for

The "trick" is to appreciate that everything serves a purpose, and finding that purpose in you life. There is an old saying that "what we resists, persists" and resisting the awareness that there is no difference between what should be and what IS... is what makes life a learning process. The ultimate goal of the Master is a Wholeness perspective.

Wholeness Perspective

The human instrument, because it is fragmented and limited to five-senses, truly desires the Wholeness Perspective; a way to absorb life experience, process it, and move on to the next thing with grace and ease. This is what is desired, no matter what name is used to describe it. Wholeness is accepting all realities and moving through them with a feeling of integration, unity, equality, and non-judgment. It means there are no dualities that are real. It means that all experience is equal and grounded in the transcendent reality of the One That Is All. And most importantly, it means that the One That Is All is you, me, him, her, it, that, and those. Nothing is excluded or rejected.

http://www.wingmakers.com/glossary.html

[asteram]

Thanks, milk and honey, for your definition of false hierarchy. It appears to me that a hierarchy is a hierarchy, so perhaps it would be more accurate to say dark vs light hierarchy or service to self vs service to others hierarchy. Polarities again. Obviously polarities have their place and function or they wouldn't exist. Sitting around on clouds playing the harp would get old pretty fast for me.

Polarity is the same as duality and if all is one, and all is from the same source, then both polarities are necessary and were created of some necessity. I don't get far with God created good and Satan created bad.

I understand that you are offended by the, as you put it, "gall" of the equation

Entity + Source Intelligence = Prime Creator equality

I am not offended at all. I think it's charming.

The WingMakers site does not say that the hierarchy is bad or good. It has a place and function and will continue to do so. The Wingmakers are saying that it is time for a new factor to enter the picture. I'm doing my best to keep this in my own words, but the phrase that is used is something like "First Source is now bursting forth at the foundations", meaning right here on the most dense of all planes.

It will be difficult to discuss this with you if you insist in morphing it into your own mold without having studied the material. I think you should realize that associating anything new you hear with something you already know is a trap. I do see how threatening these Sovereign Integral concepts are to past systems and dogma, but that's how it is. Your arguments so far have a strong resemblance to the sort of fundamentalist thought that I am too familiar with, e.g. anything that disagrees with my dogma is of the devil and evil.

I'm reminded of a conversation I had a couple of months ago with a very intelligent but poorly informed Christian. I brought up the subject of Krishna and Arjuna, which raised his hackles, but all I wished to talk about was the esoteric meaning behind the battle portrayed in the Bhagavad Gita. Well, that set him off even more, as he well knew that anything not of Christian origin was evil, and he associated the Bhagavad Gita with people in orange bedsheets chanting Hare Krishna; to him obviously evil and satanic. His arguments were not informed, nor did he wish to be informed. As for me, I could not care less whether Krishna or Jesus existed as real people or not; that's not important to me, it's the concepts and ideas behind the myths and stories that interest me.

Your attempts to fit the concept of Source Codes into the seven chakras/three subtle bodies mold also shows that you have not studied the WingMakers material, and remember so far we haven't even gotten far into the first few pages of it from ten years ago. You know little more about it than my friend Nigel knows about Krishna and Arjuna; you have simply decided a priori that you don't like it and are attempting to warn me and others away from something you know little about.

So, if you would like to continue the discussion with a little more background, here is a link to a few pages of what I read in the summer of 2000. Its title is "The Shifting Models of Existence" and it compares and contrasts the perspective of the Sovereign Integral with that of the Hierarchy:

http://wingmakers.com/philosophy2.html


Informed opinions carry more weight from my point of view. Please do your best to read it with an open mind, at least the first time through, and not simply as a source of ammunition.

[asteram]

Quantum

Quantum breathing. Quantum pause. These phrases sound rather advanced and esoteric to us moderns only because of the association of the word "quantum" over the past century with the term "quantum physics". The terms are not really esoteric.

Quantum (plural quanta) comes from the Latin base quantus meaning "how much". The Random House Unabridged second edition gives the first meaning of quantum as "quantity or amount" and definition 2 is "a particular amount". That is really all a quantum is, a fixed, specific, or particular amount. A pound, an ounce, or a kilogram are each a quantum, as is a minute or an hour. The term need not be even that exact: one apple is a quantum; a dozen eggs is a quantum, a lifetime is a quantum.

The association with mysterious and advanced physics came about in the early 1900s when scientists studying atomic structure discovered that energy came in packets of an exact size, a particular amount. In Bohr's atomic model, called the planetary model, electrons orbit the nucleus of an atom like planets orbit the sun, and they orbit at specific distances from the nucleus. The scientists discovered that when an electron lost energy and dropped to a lower orbit closer to the nucleus it emitted a photon, and that the photon was an exact quantity of energy, no more, no less. One does not encounter half of a photon. They called this specific amount of energy a quantum or quantum packet of energy.

I'm bringing this up because I think that the association with quantum physics might be too complex an association to make with the breathing and perception exercises that James has suggested in the Camelot interview. It appears to me that in the quantum breathing exercise there are four quanta or specific stages involved, each of them a quantum of three, four, or five "beats". For example: Breathe in to a count of four, hold in to a count of four, breathe out to a count of four, hold out to a count of four, repeated three times and then followed by a quantum of unspecified length, a pause, to observe the thoughts that drift up into consciousness. All together the three sets of breathing plus the pause make another quantum of four. Very simple: a certain amount of breaths, a certain amount of repetitions, a certain amount of pauses. Quantum breathing.

James also suggests breaking ones day up into quanta of experience, for example the time between waking up and sitting down for breakfast, in which one washes up and brushes their teeth, combs their hair, gets dressed etc. Of course each of these can be further broken up into quanta. He suggests the duration of a phone call as a quantum amount. Reading and answering an email would be another example. Note that none of these consist of any fixed duration, or necessarily any exact repetition, but they can be perceived as and broken up into quanta.

So far I have little idea what the purpose is behind "quantizing" one's day in this way, but it occurs to me that it does increase awareness of the intervals and actions, and those intervals are not regulated by the measurements of "clock time", nor even the movements of the sun, stars, daylight or night time. These quanta are solely subjective; for instance "brushing ones teeth" is a quantum but in no ordinary way is it a measure of time, rather it is a quantum of experience. As the goal seems to be to get the attention of the core entity, perhaps this is closer to the way the entity measures experience.

[ENdJOY]

Thank you for sharing your understanding of quantum here...I was not familiar with that particular perspective and it enhances my ability to grasp more fully what a gift the "Quantum Pause" is

I also appreciate your obvious familiarity/ experience with the WMMs...having it lumped into the New Age bag is just so disappointing. I was not aware of how much fear is attached to stepping outside of the "Christian" box until I listened to that google movie (Gods of the New Age) suggested in another post...and can see now, where these idea are coming from...even though I do not understand how the Wingmakers got drug into that bonfire, since they have nothing in common with any of the other teachings mentioned.

I never did understand why christians are so afraid of other teachings...even if the WMMs were not associated with Jesus...they are all going to be raptured away... so what do they care what others believe. They seem to have forgotten that what Jesus taught was "not original" either, yet it was New (to that) Age - having been buried in religion's dogma...I have found nothing in the WMMs that conflict with what he taught in the brief 3 years he was allowed to teach...in fact, I am sure that what James is revealing is what he would have taught us if he had more time...and if his followers minds were more open.

[Czymra]

It will be difficult to discuss this with you if you insist in morphing it into your own mold without having studied the material. I think you should realize that associating anything new you hear with something you already know is a trap. I do see how threatening these Sovereign Integral concepts are to past systems and dogma, but that's how it is. Your arguments so far have a strong resemblance to the sort of fundamentalist thought that I am too familiar with, e.g. anything that disagrees with my dogma is of the devil and evil.

Could I request some explanation on that. As I just mentioned in my last post, I do not like any dogmas (is that the English plural of it?). However I do understand that one cannot just equate the new system with the old i.e. force those principles through the grid of an old system.
However, with the right open mind mind and attitude, that means that the previously learned isn't a system, but rather a pool of knowledge, the new information can easily be merged and embedded alongside the old, as they organically reference each other (or not) and by that very nature help redefine the old AND the new.
I think this is so with most 'spiritual' arts, they are dynamically self-arranging if one allows them to be fluid.
Just imagine how when listening to music, you only hear a single instant (note) in the now, but your understanding of the melody is formed by the memory of the music just passed and the anticipation of the sounds to come. It is thus self-arranging and in fact has a reciprocal effect on the music of the past as each new note isn't just added in the grid of the old, but rather redefines all the past melodies heard.

[asteram]

ENdJOY--

I think the WM material is here now because humanity on planet Earth is ready for it, and it's "time" to access the Grand Portal. The existence of the internet is a necessary prerequisite, because of its ability to unify and spread information to a large segment of the population and from there the collective consciousness. One can access the internet from Mount Everest, the Amazon jungle, or the hinterlands of Mongolia. The days of being able to lie to and keep a large segment of the population in ignorance are coming to an end; these days one needs to put effort into remaining ignorant.

As to the quantum definition, I have learned that it's necessary from experience with people babbling on about quantum physics in some fashion without even knowing what a quantum is. First things first: we define what we mean by the term.

RE the rapture, James mentioned in the interview that Nibiru is not coming back, nor is Anu going to make his second coming. Does this mean the rapture is called off too? If so, dang; we are just going to have to deal with the fundie fanatics I guess.

[asteram]

Czymra-

Yes, dogmas is plural. Dogmata is also an accepted plural.

Clarifying my point, what I was attempting to say was that the approach reminds me of those who say "anything that disagrees with my dogma is of the devil and evil." I don't have much use for dogma either, my definition of dogma being "accepted truths that may not be questioned". In the case of religious law, one who openly questions dogma is a heretic. I question everything, and though I accept certain things as proven to my satisfaction, they are still open to question.

For instance, the statement "I am alive" appears obvious, but am I really alive and experiencing my life right now, or am I already dead and experiencing a life review?

From your previous post:

"However, with the right open mind mind and attitude, that means that the previously learned isn't a system, but rather a pool of knowledge, the new information can easily be merged and embedded alongside the old, as they organically reference each other (or not) and by that very nature help redefine the old AND the new."

I agree with you completely on this. Life, knowledge, wisdom, and understanding are cumulative, or at least should be. Even things that I have learned in the past that have turned out to be wrong in a general sense often have parts that are right in a particular sense. I do not reject the things of value that I learned when I was coerced into becoming a born-again Christian as a young boy. I reject the dogma of sin and salvation, but even that part I recognize for its underlying symbolism and truth.

The goal is self-realization at the highest level of which I am capable, and I will gladly use whatever tools present themselves as long as they do not conflict with my inner compass and conscience. What I mean by that is that I will not use a "tool" that knowingly causes or allows harm to come to another in order to benefit myself.

Everything else is open, and I do mean everything.

[asteram]

~

[EarthBowl]

Originally Posted by asteram

Quantum



So far I have little idea what the purpose is behind in this way, but it occurs to me that it does increase awareness of the intervals and actions, and those intervals are not regulated by the measurements of "clock time", nor even the movements of the sun, stars, daylight or night time. These quanta are solely subjective; for instance "brushing ones teeth" is a quantum but in no ordinary way is it a measure of time, rather it is a quantum of experience. As the goal seems to be to get the attention of the core entity, perhaps this is closer to the way the entity measures experience.

Great thoughts. Yes.. As we do this '"quantizing" of one's day' ... we are * ...focusing in the now, * ...are reminded and aware of the SI in all that we do, * ....are aware of an alternative way to experience 'time' ( maybe we are even released, in a sense, of times hold on us). Doing this causes us to focus our attention and intention to align - honor- respect - desire - share and know the SI.
Thanks for this discussion

[milk and honey]

Originally Posted by Czymra

Half of the time you simply lose me with what seems to be finickiness. There is too much terminology in most of what is thrown about here, and something just doesn't feel right about it.
Nevertheless, this post was VERY enlightening. Asteram might be just the right catalyst this discussion needs.

Guess everyone has their own view of 'finicky'. The reason i meet James' terminology with terminology is to show that his "new" concepts have been explored and mapped forever. There seems no way around explaining what he's done without illustrating with various examples.

Originally Posted by Czymra

I am not able to present my own 'system of belief' in any depth or profoundness as either of you are, and I think that is good. I have a problem with dogmas, fixed values and the idea of 'good and bad'.

I try to point out the difference between reflections of 'reality' and 'unreality'. The way to prove 'unreality' is to see it for what it is. The vibrations of 'reality' and 'unreality' are discernable and therefore identifiable. For the purpose of discussion it is necessary to conceptually identify both and then to compare and contrast the differences as i see them.

Same with the concept of values'. The vibration of ideas that originate in "true identity" is discernably different to those that originate in the outer mind. I value one over the other in myself and outside myself. The difficulty presented by our need to conceptualise is that we must use 'names' to explain our perception to each other. Thus 'good' and 'bad' are relative to individual orientation and POV. I'd rather be free than be a slave. Someone else would rather enslave me... We may not agree on the idea of 'good' and 'bad' in that case due to our relaive POV. But i can act to ensure i am not enslaved by discerning motive, intent and MO. Like everyone else here i commit my perception to 'paper' and leave it to others to determine value. Is it merely a system of my own dogmatic beliefs? Or am i seeing things as they are?

Originally Posted by Czymra

So let me ask you a few questions in the hope you can give me some answers to make my own path:

As mentioned, I struggle with 'good or bad' and what you describe falls quite clearly into those categories. There is a true and a false hierarchy. There is a Christ and an Anti-Christ, there is negative energy and positive energy.
I can see how these polarities are of importance on our 'plane' but always considered that once you leave the lower planes everything just 'is'. I'm told that the spiritual masters sit there doing nothing because 'everything will be fine, it all goes it's due course. The negative and the positive play their roles to lead everybody to their realisation, eventually they are of no importance since we are all immortal anyway.'

The immortal Self is "true identity". The soul was created by "true identity" to fulfill a creative purpose in matter. It attains immortality IF it fulfills it's creative purpose but, having freewill, this is not guaranteed. The soul can rebel. It can maintain that attitude until it's creative opportunity expires.

The false hierarchy have fostered the idea that all roads lead to Union with "true identity". They would have us believe that the pettiness of the mind of anti-christ is one polarity of the true nature of the ONE. And that therefore it can be chosen as a valid route to Oneness. It is a bald lie and one which is more likely to lead 'believers' to a state of demonhood than buddhahood. Sure everything IS what it IS. Will you choose the low road and sever yourself from "true identity"? Or the high road to conscious Union with "true identity"? That is the real choice. I know you're not suggesting this Czyrma but if all roads led to the same destination (in consciousness) there would be no necessity to exercise freewill and choice. And no need for true teachers to make the choices and the consequences plain to all.

"Master teachers have attained the fruit of discernment... that is, Self-realisation". Discernment leads to enlightened choices which awaken full Self-realisation. Non-discernment results in poor choices which can lead to self-annihilation.

No master sits around 'doing nothing' if "true identity" calls for action. There are cycles of going within followed by cycles of action in the material world. That is the balance of life. The master Jesus demonstrated that balance. He got off his meditation matt and hit the street. He could not choose a life of private bliss while humanity suffered ignorance. He could not remain silent in the face of the abuses of the false hierarchy so he challenged them directly. He 'called out' the false priests on their hypocrisy and exposed their distorted philosophy. He was a man of rare discernment and courage who knew what he was talking about. Guatama attained the enlightenment of "true identity" then likewise got off his matt and travelled far and wide with the message of salvation. He discoursed extensively for ~ 40 years drawing crowds everywhere he went. He taught the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path of right action. Why did they (and many others) bother if all paths lead to Oneness? If change is to manifest in this world it will come through a changed heart and the actions which spring from it. It won't happen by thought alone or meditation alone or by ignoring the objective manifestations of anti-christ who act in concert to enslave humanity.

Originally Posted by Czyrma

This leads directly into what I think is called the Buddahood, the Satori or similar and as I also mentioned before this seems to tie in with Zen or Buddhism in general.

There is much sectarianism and dissagreement in the buddhist world and the christian world. But here is the kernal of it. Both adepts taught that Buddha and Christ were 'within you' as "true identity". They both self-realised what James is renaming the 'Sovereign Integral'. Like Jesus and Guatama, James teaches that we can manifest "true identity" on this plane of action through the 'human instrument'. Jesus and Guatama demonstrated exactly what that means. Observe the lives of these 2 adepts and you will see the 'Sovereign Integral" / Christ / Buddha in action. Observe their confrontations with the True and false hierarchies, their words and deeds. Then you will see that "true identity" is a revolutionary force for change. If things are out of alignment with cosmic truth -- such as the mass-consciousness, philosophies, systems, institutions -- then "true identity" does not leave things the way IT finds them. IT is not a passive force. IT is a transforming power. IT acts to re-align the outer worlds to inner truth.

Originally Posted by Czyrma

It is thus exemplified that one does not ascend, one just works toward (the gateless gate (James' invisible prison) and being able to pass through it.

"Working toward the gate" leads to ascension. The soul must 'ascend' in vibration to be an instrument of "true identity" else there is no vibrational resonance in matter for conscious Union. It has been variously termed "self-transcendence", "the Divine embrace", the "transmutative epic", "the trial by fire", etc. When the work of Union in matter is complete, the (vibrationally) perfected soul ascends to permanent Union with "true identity" ... "never more to go out or in" ... the two become inseperably ONE. All this should suggest too that the path of 'service to self' is not a path to Union but a vibrational dead end to no-where. It can only re-inforce the low vibration and disorientation of the individual. Until it is forsaken it postpones the day of passing through the gate. The problem with it is that the more it is engaged the more difficult it is to extract oneself from it. The 'gravity' of selfish acts increase the karmic weight of the soul which lead over and again to the 'grave'. All of the harm done must be faced up to in interminable lifetimes and service rendered to balance it.

Originally Posted by Czyrma

Maybe I'm just hung up with the beauty of that idea, but why is that 'wrong'?

It's not wrong, it's beautiful. See the example of Jesus and Guatama; how they demonstrated non-attachment yet both acted with the zeal of "true identity". They were opposed by dark forces but they were not stuck themselves in an oppositional mindset. They asserted truth to the lie and responded to attacks on themselves and others but they were not acting from the level of the lower-ego. They had extinguished the ignorance of the egoic mind and were acting from a higher level of Being. In the center of being there is non-attachment to the fruit of action BUT THERE IS ACTION. While there were apparent struggles in an outer sense - from the egoistic POV of others - the masters acted always from the peaceful heart of true being. There is no fear or agression there. But there is assertive force. See how one can be beyond human notions of "good" and "bad" yet act decisively according to the WILL of "true identity"?

Originally Posted by Czyrma

Lastly, why is it Christ here and Krishna there and I AM in the end? Patchwork-spiritualism is clearly the nature of true discernment but you seem to be quite decisive in your terminology. Does it matter? Do words matter?

I'm with you. I say they don't matter unless they're being discredited through ignorance or malice. You must concede that if i'm going to illustrate James' hollow assertion of "newness" -- of everything including his claimed personal powers -- then my presentation of a historical lexicon of terms and concepts is unavoidable.

Originally Posted by Czyrma

Is Rock'n Roll Music really there to further satan and how could it be that those spells work? This doesn't seem to fit with the well established spiritual philosophies propagated so far, at all for the simple reason that they say 'all is one', how can you then reject another?

All is ONE. Doesn't mean we should present ourselves a doormat for others to wipe their feet on. We have a right to freely walk our path. It is not a right respected by all. Some would utterly enslave us. Consequently, we have to defend the liberty we have. While we all originate in the ONE they exclude themselves from fraternity with us by vibration and intent. First, let them submit to the same path of Oneness with the light. Let them drink from the same fount within themselves. Let them forsake their feeding frenzy on humanity and act like human beings instead of vampires.

We are All One at the level of the Christ-Self. At that level we KNOW Oneness with all life. But we are not obliged to pour the light down the beast's throat in order to 'prove' we love. Nor embrace those who have an implacable hatred of the light and the light bearer. Mind i'm not speaking of relative good and evil. Most people on earth are relatively good and relatively evil. I'm speaking of absolute evil. It exists on earth and it gets away with a lot - in the eyes of man - because it generally is not seen for what it is.

Originally Posted by Czymra

You do not seem to be interested at all in the concept of 'the world is your mirror'.

Just because i have exposed something as i see it, doesn't mean i don't share some responsibility for it's appearance in the cosmic mirror. If i were free of evil i would either be invulnerable in this world or safe in the next. But the objective manifestation of evil would still be in this world whether or not i myself still was. Dark forces don't rely on me for their objective personalities or for the choices they make in this world. That suggests of course that we don't all evolve together. We should, but we don't. Each expresses freewill as one chooses.

Originally Posted by Czyrma

Nevertheless, I have come to be convinced that evil cloaks in the most positive dresses and I am thus extremely weary. This section expresses my thoughts on this better than I could do it myself.
You say to identify the 'false hierarchy' and I completely with you on that regard. However, what then?

Thanks,
Czymra

What then? The Way to achieve invulnerability and to serve in that capacity at any level of reality is to realise "true identity" within. The fullness of that Presence is your shield and your s-word. (your sacred-word). Who knows how and where you are called to serve? Only You.

[milk and honey]

Originally Posted by ENdJOY

a prerequisite to the Sovereign Integrals' perspective, is to shift ones self from the savior/student model of existence,

The 'savior' is within. Don't wan't to release yourself from that. You are a student of that and your outer teacher, James. That is your choice. But let's not pretend savior/student is old hat. The misconception of it is old hat and James is perpetuating it.

by releasing one's dependency upon any hierarchy

The true Hierarchy have never encouraged dependency. So there is no need for a 'divorce' from a limiting force. True Hierarchy is unlimited, respectful of our freewill and still has a lot to offer. Release yourself from their positive influence if you will.

... this means moving into the Mastership model of existence where the indiviual is no longer "stuck" in a dualistic world...

Exactly what the Masters Jesus and Guatama taught. They both called it "The Way". Your 'savior' is yourself. Realise self-mastery by externalising "true identity" through the human instrument. Both proved it could be done thousands of years ago. So have many others.

there is no good or bad,

--- Relative egoistic notions defined by the lower-ego.(ie, the mind of anti-christ). However, there are vibrations of reality and unreality defined by the Mind of Christ within... ie, Not defined by the egoic-mind as you agree.

The ultimate goal of the Master is a Wholeness perspective.

It is a misconception to suggest that Wholeness is some kind of balance of light and dark forces within one's being. Complete Wholeness is only attained by the transformation of all negative energy in one's personal energy field. The soul otherwise cannot rise in vibration and resonance with "true identity" . Mastership is mastering the free flow of Christ energy through all levels of being.... All the chakras and All the subtle bodies must be unimpeded by negative energy to allow that. All inner resistance to the flow must be identified and surrendered because we are not seeking to retain a balance of oppositional forces in our being. That oppositional state is merely a definition of the dualistic ego. It is not real. We are not seeking merely to live with opposing forces. Beyond those opposing forces -- in the realm of "true identity" -- the complementary forces of spirit seek to FILL the the 'human instrument'. The Way must be cleared.

[Czymra]

Ah, this was most enlightening. Thank you so much, EndJoy, Asteram, Milk and Honey.

I do think you are talking about the same thing however, it's just a matter of wording. Ignoring whether James' newness is justified or not, maybe he does his part in allowing those drawn to his Material (which I partly am) to feel that 'speciality' we all need to get to believe.
Now give each other a hug.

[cway]

Kerry Cassidy's interview on X2 radio
http://x2-radio.mypodcast.com/2008/0...dio-70482.html

[ENdJOY]

Originally Posted by milk and honey

The 'savior' is within. Don't wan't to release yourself from that. You are a student of that and your outer teacher, James. That is your choice. But let's not pretend savior/student is old hat. The misconception of it is old hat and James is perpetuating it.
well then, if the savior is within (which is exactlly what the WMMs teach) , there there is no need for a search for a savior, at what point does one become the teacher...or are you suggesting that we never become capable of teaching ourselves, or mastering our selves...or bottom line "saving ourselves"?? James is not a teacher, he only releases data ... he teaches no one, and no one is his student....when are you going to get that straight...all James does is translate materials and release them over the web. I teach myself...my SELF is my greatest teacher...that and the Universe...the study of the WMMs is cosmology...nothing less.


The true Hierarchy have never encouraged dependency. So there is no need for a 'divorce' from a limiting force. True Hierarchy is unlimited, respectful of our freewill and still has a lot to offer. Release yourself from their positive influence if you will. Please define "true Hierarchy....there are many hierarchal seats of power, Religion, Science, Politics, Culture...which of these is the "True" one in your mind? You have to be kidding about "never encouraged dependency"... that is all they do...they were created to control, they are self serving, and with hold information or favors, for the "worthy" which generally means those who comply and contribute the most to thier system. Hierarchy not only limits but it fragments society...take Religion for example...how many different religions and sub demoninations of religion are there? all preaching they are the "true church" and that others are less than true, so you will lend your support to them...when in fact none of them are true and if Jesus came today he would not go to any church. I find NOTHING positive about their influence on my life...other than fellowship and networking which I get from my family.

Exactly what the Masters Jesus and Guatama taught. They both called it "The Way". Your 'savior' is yourself. Realise self-mastery by externalising "true identity" through the human instrument. Both proved it could be done thousands of years ago. So have many others. Yes, this is exactaly what the WMMs promote...activate the Sovereign Integral consciousness...ie Christ Consciousness. Why would Jesus teach anything else...remember he is the head of the Lyricus Teaching Order...he wrote the WMMs

--- Relative egoistic notions defined by the lower-ego.(ie, the mind of anti-christ). However, there are vibrations of reality and unreality defined by the Mind of Christ within... ie, Not defined by the egoic-mind as you agree.
The ego is the "lower mind" limited by the HMS -stuck in duality... that is programed by parents, schools, church and the Genetic mind, to forget one's true Identity. Even those who refuse to conform are still programed by the very world in which they live.


It is a misconception to suggest that Wholeness is some kind of balance of light and dark forces within one's being. No it isn't it is programing that demands that you judge an issue one way or the other there is no difference (two sides of the same coin) Complete Wholeness is only attained by the transformation of all negative energy in one's personal energy field. There is no such thing as "negative energy"...that is a value YOU have given it ...it is energyThe soul otherwise cannot rise in vibration and resonance with "true identity" .The soul doesn't need to "rise"...it is the true idenity, always has been always will be Mastership is mastering the free flow of Christ energy through all levels of being....Mastry is over HMS that associates trigger words with emotional responses...when you reprogram your responses to express your TRUE Identity, and allow the virtues of the Heart to flow from you...then you have refined your ego and your perceptions are enhanced with Christ Consciousness nothing prevents you from doing this All the chakras and All the subtle bodies must be unimpeded by negative energy to allow that. again there is no negative energy...especially not in the soul ... all energy springs from the same SOURCE...you are the one who gives it a negative or positive value All inner resistance to the flow must be identified and surrendered because we are not seeking to retain a balance of oppositional forces in our being. of course We are seeking balance - anything else would be UN-BALANCEd lol... first, as a human, and then to be "centered" as the Sovereign Integral ... and being blanced means, as you well know, having equal portions of experience, on either side of the scale. That oppositional state is merely a definition of the dualistic ego. It is not real. Exactly...now you are talking truth We are not seeking merely to live with opposing forces. Beyond those opposing forces -- in the realm of "true identity" -- the complementary forces of spirit seek to FILL the the 'human instrument'. The Way must be cleared. Yes, the way must be cleared by letting go of any dependency one has upon the Hierarchy (external teacher/savior) and to experience the zero point of balance, so that the soul can express it SELF via the Human Instrument...as our TRUE Identity/Christ Consciousness/Sovereign Integral state of consciousness

I hate to restort to this kind of reply...it is less than "whole"... but that seems to be your prefered way to communicate... The thing that you need to get clear in your mind is that James is not teaching us anything, he is giving us a set of blueprints upon which we can create our own structure....He is expressing a Sovereign Integral's consciousness, as an example of following this "proven way"... which the WMs offered him, and are now offering every one of us... not on conditions of worthyness, but willingness to free ourselves...not from the Human Instrument, but from the Human MIND SYSTEM that is embedded into this body, altered by ANU.... The WMMs offer us the "tools" that will accelerate that process, or we can just "evolve" to that state of consciousness along with the rest of the species...thanks to those who "transform" and relay that information to us, via our interconnection or Oneness as a species.

I, personally welcome this opportunity to free myself from the HMS...others are quite content to support this system and appear completely unaware that it exists. The choice is yours... no one can do it for you, not even God will take away your free will.

the truth shall set you free...and the truth is YOU are a Sovereign Integral, wearing a body that suppresses that truth (via its limited mind), until you transform it (restore its original template) so that it can express your true identity.