Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?

[Vidya Moksha]

Originally Posted by NorthernSantuary

One of the areas I was looking into was waste treatment; an area that can't be avoided.

Hi Northern Sanctuary,
I have designed and built a number of dry compost toilets and I can't imagine too many situations where they would not work well (flooding being the only potential problem).
It is always best if you have some land free and can build a purpose built structure to house the toilet, but this is not essential.
I have seen a number of installations fitted inside houses that also work very well (and you dont need the complication or expense of a commercially built unit - anything designed around a bucket will work perfectly well!).
The main issue is to separate solid waste from urine. Its best not to collect urine but to pipe it directly to plants/ garden / waste pipe. There are several viable strategies for separating the two.
Most people produce a small matchbox sized amount of solid waste per day once the water has been removed, its surprising how little space you actually need.
To give an idea, i built 2 waste collection areas, 1 cubic metre each. It would take 6-8 people a year (with toilet paper) to fill one cube, then switch to the other bin for a year. After year 2, the first bin could be emptied by hand, just fresh smelling compost ready for the garden.
In terms of smell, wood ash is perfect. Reduces ALL odour and adds phosphate to the compost. I have never known a smell issue with a toilet where most urine is separated, and wood ash is used. And some urine can be included in the mix, especially of toilet paper is used (and the ash soaks more liquid.)
My suggestion: keep it simple, keep it cheap and keep it dry.
om shanti
VM

[NorthernSanctuary]

Thanks for the info, planet2 and Vidya, could be useful. I'm aware of the problem mentioned about the flooding in the spring, because I noticed that went the soil gets saturated, the water in the ground can back up and flood the septic tank. Really the septic system is obsolete because quite often, it pollutes the ground.

Vidya, the simple system you mention works, but the people are still use to the convenience of indoor plumbing, so I'm trying to come up with a solution for that if possible.

The link to magnegas also triggers me to lok into the manure biogas processor, which would also provide methane for cooking. This may turn out to be the best solution, because it still provides the convenience of indoor plumbing, and there is gas for cooking and compost also for the vegetables after due process.

Some links for people interested:

An overview report:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...&client=safari

Info to build (it's also a lot cheaper than the commercial ones):
http://www.ruralcostarica.com/biogas.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...sters/MD3.html

[Unified Serenity]

Hi Northern Santuary,

This may sound ignorant, but would there be some odd smell cooking with methane?

[Vidya Moksha]

Originally Posted by NorthernSantuary

Vidya, the simple system you mention works, but the people are still use to the convenience of indoor plumbing, so I'm trying to come up with a solution for that if possible.

The link to magnegas also triggers me to lok into the manure biogas processor

For the system I am suggesting the indoor plumbing needs to be bypassed, or just used as a urine disposal system, which is kinda wasteful as diluted urine is such a good fertiliser. I have seen several approaches to indoor toilets, but all bypass the conventional toilet system. One system builds up a wooden frame around the existing toilet and utilises a bucket to collect solids. You sit or squat at some height off the floor, but this is no hardship. A bucket will need to be emptied weekly most likely, unless a larger storage unit can be used. It is always easier to leave the solid waste in situ until it has composted naturally, but this isnt always possible indoors; size being the restricting factor.
Urine, in all these sytems, is simply piped to the garden, that is a very simple job. Handwashing grey water is piped to the same source as the urine, providing the dilution, though some plants, such as comfrey, will take concentrated waste water with no difficulty.
Biogas seems like a good idea, but it is is not so simple in reality. In china they just make enough methane if they compost all vegetable and food matter AND garden compost as well as faecal material AND have a pig, with pig wastes entered into the same system. Otherwise there is simply too little methane to make the system viable. Although not always possible, wood is the best fuel for cooking and heating, and the ash is so useful for treating the composted material.
Also with biogas you need a large storage area, if you can even consider this sort of storage size then compost toilet space will be easily achieved.
VM

[artvision]

Originally Posted by Vidya Moksha

Hi Northern Sanctuary,
I have designed and built a number of dry compost toilets and I can't imagine too many situations where they would not work well (flooding being the only potential problem).
......
My suggestion: keep it simple, keep it cheap and keep it dry.
om shanti
VM

Hi Vidya Moksha, do you have some drawings, some blueprints for constructing such toilets? I would be interested in constructing myself such devices, just be able in case SHTF, repair, service and do maintenance myself.

All the best!

[Carmen]

I have a great book(everyone who knows me knows I have a book on Everything!!!). Anyway this book is called "The Humanure Handbook" by Joseph Jenkins. Its fabulous (if any book on poos can be fabulous!)Covers all aspects of dealing with human waste by a person who has been using these systems for years. Told with knowledge and humour.

Cheers

Carmen

[artvision]

Originally Posted by Carmen

I have a great book(everyone who knows me knows I have a book on Everything!!!). Anyway this book is called "The Humanure Handbook" by Joseph Jenkins. Its fabulous (if any book on poos can be fabulous!)Covers all aspects of dealing with human waste by a person who has been using these systems for years. Told with knowledge and humour.

Cheers

Carmen

Thanks Carmen, I found the book on Scribd, for who is interested:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/270721/Humanure-Handbook

Though, we would appreciate the things tried by our fellows Avalonians, they say are working fine.

[NorthernSanctuary]

Hi Northern Santuary,

This may sound ignorant, but would there be some odd smell cooking with methane?

Natural gas is essential methane; it's colorless and odorless. It's the hydrogen sulfate compounds that give the rotten egg smell, if it exists.

Vidya, your picture is worth a thousand words. By myself, I was using that (a toilet seat on top of a hole in the ground), but for 40 people it's a bigger problem. The biogas digester can be made to work in a commuity; I'll have to investigate it, but some forum people here have the know how.

/NS

[TtC]

Biogas reclamation is by no means hard; you just have to know what you're doing and make sure the calculations are correct. It also helps if you have the space as well as a population to feed it.

[Vidya Moksha]

Originally Posted by NorthernSantuary

[COLOR="Cyan"][I]Hi Northern Santuary,


Vidya, your picture is worth a thousand words. By myself, I was using that (a toilet seat on top of a hole in the ground), but for 40 people it's a bigger problem. The biogas digester can be made to work in a commuity; I'll have to investigate it, but some forum people here have the know how.

/NS

with 40 people biogas may be an option, i would guess that centralizing the waste will be the biggest problem, handling fresh faecal matter should be avoided.
With so many people a compost sytem would work really well. I had originally thought to use the compost on my farm, but was amazed just how little volume it produced.
I would think with 40 people the construction of a toilet block would be particularly easy. Just double the bins in each cubicle. So for example, in one block have 3 toilets, thats 6 bins, 3 active, 3 in storage. As a rule of thumb it will take 6 people 1 year to fill one 1m3 collector. Asuming half male and female (if you want to separate the block) then 2 toilet blocks each with 3 toilets (6 bins) would be about right (you need a year really for the compost to activate, unless you employ solar collectors). This would rquire a structure 6 m long and at least 1m deep, not such a big structure really. Of couse several smaller units could be used, but 40 people would work best with 6 toilets.

[NorthernSanctuary]

Hi Vidya,

This is in Canada, so there is the cold if you go outside. Most of the people are coming from the city, so prefer access from their own units (if it is a family unit). I was thinking of using a duel low flush toilet system (6 /3 pints) or separating the urine out completely. There will also be vegetable compost going into the digester, so should be able to enhance the slush consistency, also temperature control (insulated and heated) for optimum production.

/NS

[Vidya Moksha]

Originally Posted by NorthernSantuary

Hi Vidya,

This is in Canada, so there is the cold if you go outside. Most of the people are coming from the city, so prefer access from their own units (if it is a family unit). I was thinking of using a duel low flush toilet system (6 /3 pints) or separating the urine out completely. There will also be vegetable compost going into the digester, so should be able to enhance the slush consistency, also temperature control (insulated and heated) for optimum production.

/NS

Good Luck with it. Separating urine is always a good idea. My last 2 cents: One compost toilet per unit will need wood ash to remove the smell. The unit would be raised off the ground, could include bathroom. Pros: cheap, very easy, nothing to go wrong, non polluting, 'install and forget'; one unit will take a couple of years to fill it.
The digester should work also, but more complicated, more expensive, not a passive system (will need maintenance), produces a toxic sludge...but gives you methane.
If you have a ready supply of tree wood (forest garden anyone?) then I wouldnt even consider the digester. Keep it simple, keep it cheap, always a good mantra when building.

[NorthernSanctuary]

Vidya:Keep it simple, keep it cheap, always a good mantra when building


Keeping it simple is good too. Here's a commercial product of what I think you're talking about, but I couldn't believe it is close to $1000 CAN.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007...oop_on_com.php

I didn't understand why the digester output would be toxic.

[Vidya Moksha]

Originally Posted by NorthernSantuary

Vidya:Keep it simple, keep it cheap, always a good mantra when building


Keeping it simple is good too. Here's a commercial product of what I think you're talking about, but I couldn't believe it is close to $1000 CAN.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007...oop_on_com.php

I didn't understand why the digester output would be toxic.

When the sludge has 'finished' it shouldnt be toxic, but won't it be a constant feed? fresh sewage mixed with water is a toxic mix. Any seepage from the digester will contaminate the area around the storage unit, then it depends on local geology as to how far the polluted area spreads.

I would always build my own toilet, its simple woodwork, or simple wood and brick work. I wouldnt buy any commercial products - but thats just me. Dont collect urine, it needs to be a passive process (it's fun for a while then its just another chore, when there is much more to do!), pipe it to the garden directly.

For a year or so, while I was building up my farm, I just used a plank of wood with a hole cut in it over a bucket. It wasnt laziness that it wasnt upgraded, but usefulness. We would plan out our tree planting and dig a 1 m hole, half fill with the bucket contents and then with soil, and then plant a tree on top. Simple, incredibly cheap and most effective/ useful. Wood ash negates all smell. I only ended up building up the toilet block for the indoor shower/bath option.

[TtC]

Originally Posted by NorthernSantuary

I didn't understand why the digester output would be toxic.

It depends what is meant by "toxic." It is a matter of perspective. It would most likely be toxic to humans and most mammals as well as fish, but not to worms, bacteria, some insects, and the like.

Large quantities of waste, human or otherwise, have been know to produce H2S (hydrogen sulfide gas) which is extremely dangerous. I used to have to wear a detector in sour gas plants for just such a reason. H2S is colorless, odorless, and a little heavier than air, so short people suffocate first. It's supposed to be like going to sleep.

I even designed an extraction process so H2S could be removed from the methane for cooking and heating on biomass reclamation units. It's about 98% efficient and doesn't take up too much space.

[THE eXchanger]

i have a property, i need to get out of in canada
it needs a little work,
so, i can maximize my profits getting out

then, i'd have money - lots of it

to create a radiant zone, here in canada
and/or align with the project in PQ
(or do both) or, perhaps, consider another alternative
if anyone is at lose ends - and, has skills for renos
(floors/painting - simple stuff)
and, need a place in canada, to run to,
this could be a good option for them

[ solicitation is not permitted here, so the bulk of the post has been removed if you want to help Susan contact her at workingwonders@aol.com - A.. ]

[Vidya Moksha]

Originally Posted by TtC

It depends what is meant by "toxic." It is a matter of perspective. It would most likely be toxic to humans and most mammals as well as fish, but not to worms, bacteria, some insects, and the like.

Of course. I wasnt sure of the depth of inquiry in the first question...its toxic in the sense that it contains gut bacteria (eg E.coli) which are directly harmful to humans and other vertebrates if ingested. The usual source of ingestion is polluted water supply. It is also possible for some nasty viruses to be present.
In another sense it is 'toxic' because it has a high BOD and COD (Biological and Chemical Oxygen Demand) which means bacteria and certain chemicals 'digest' (or oxidize) the faecal matter, and in so doing the use up all available oxygen, which is why most aquatic organisms suffer, many are extremely sensitive to reduced oxygen levels.
On the other hand, many animals thrive in such conditions, they see the sewage as food and they dont mind the reduced oxygen so much.
The 'toxic' elements are contained within the sewage water, so when this contaminated water seeps, or leaks from the digester it spreads to the surrounding area. This is no real problem unless local groundwater is contaminated in the process.
Mixing sewage with water is always potentially hazardous, and always wasteful of water. Dry toilets are the better solution, i believe.

[TtC]

If done properly, there should be no leaks from the digester, whatsoever. And I have removed the hazardous issues from my system.

[Vidya Moksha]

Originally Posted by TtC

If done properly, there should be no leaks from the digester, whatsoever. And I have removed the hazardous issues from my system.

I dont know the system. Surely the water is just a carrier of the faecal matter, and its the faecal material that produces the methane. But the digester must be a finite size that will soon be filled with water from the toilets? what then? surely there must be an overflow of some kind, or the water must be separated at some point in the process, and this will be contaminated water...of course this could be easily piped to a reed bed...
In China they use dry toilets, then they manually transfer the faecal matter to a pit, which I suppose is the 'digester' in that system. When the pit material is spent they ship it onto the land for fertilizer and start a new pit. But this system is labour intensive and potentially hazardous as raw faecal material is constantly being handled.

[TtC]

Originally Posted by Vidya Moksha

I dont know the system. Surely the water is just a carrier of the faecal matter, and its the faecal material that produces the methane. But the digester must be a finite size that will soon be filled with water from the toilets? what then? surely there must be an overflow of some kind, or the water must be separated at some point in the process, and this will be contaminated water...of course this could be easily piped to a reed bed...
In China they use dry toilets, then they manually transfer the faecal matter to a pit, which I suppose is the 'digester' in that system. When the pit material is spent they ship it onto the land for fertilizer and start a new pit. But this system is labour intensive and potentially hazardous as raw faecal material is constantly being handled.

Of course it's potentially hazardous, but it seems everyone wants to think inside the box, still. I, on the other hand, have thought of something entirely different.

It took me six months to design my system and another three for a working prototype. Now it's patent pending. What is more than just a carrier, it's life.

[NorthernSanctuary]

Hi Vidya, what you describer is what they call a batch process, which is labor intensive. The other is a continuous load process, which is what TtC is describing, I believe. Sounds like an ideal biological machine/process. The end product of the process has to be biologically safe for humans to be released into the environment.

It was good to have this discussion. Thanks to all the post contributors.

[mudra]

Friends,

I am back and so pleased to find this thread so alive and filled with strong positive energy.
Great to see new people posting here .
Looking at it from the outside I see hearts at work here and clean minds .
The feeling I get is that everyone is fitting in the right place and that was is being built
is going upwards spirit, mind and body aligned .
This alignment in itself everyone working from his heartfelt truth including all is a sign
that a shift has already taken place .
Blessed be your journey and thank you for being who you are.

mudra

[mudra]

We cannot stop in our progress with organizations and systems either orthodox or metaphysical for they are sectional, sectarian, and teach a doctrine that is more or less involved with the idea of separations. They are only steps in the process of man's discovery of himself. We cannot stop at any point without becoming orthodox. That prevents further progress until we break away.

- Baird T. Spaulding

[THE eXchanger]

Originally Posted by mudra

- Baird T. Spaulding

funny thing-this morning his set of 5 books
found their way, from the book shelf to the floor -
thanks for sharing this quote mudra

[rhythm]

The solution is simple

get out of the system ....

and show that it can be done ......to the rest ...

llive in balance and harmony

live off the land return to

the connection with the earth

give and recieve

give respect back to the real giver and provider

you know the lies

know live the truth

got eny better ideas !!!!!

i here some say they will stick with it

will not leave the rest


i wish them luck as they will need it ....

imagine being free ...

show it can be done ... be the example

so others can see hey there is a way off this wheel ...


then who will be there to be led like lambs ...

no slaves no masters (wake up calls )