Poor Gary Mckinnon

murnut · 11-12-2008, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martian31v

wrong... governments are supposed to represent the rights of the people. when they don't (like withhold existential information) we have the right to oppose their oppression. exactly what gary did, therefor his actions are justified.

wrong.... there will not ALWAYS be information withheld from the public. transparency is the way of the future because transparency of information ensures equality. if you need me to elaborate on this point i can.

wrong... not a slippery slope argument. very straight forward. when an injustice is perpetrated by our government, we have a right to combat that injustice by any non-violent means necessary.

wrong... my argument does NOT imply justification for stealing from rich to give to poor. my argument dictates the right to take back what has been stolen from us.

wrong... the ufo community is not selling its soul. it is standing up for what is right. i will state the argument AGAIN. all humans have a right to equal access of existential information. in searching for that information, gary or any other sentient being is justified in their non-violent search.

wrong... in making my case i do not have to prove that all forms of govt are wrong. it is only necessary to show that their particular action of withholding existential information is wrong. therefor justifying gary's search for said infromation.

wrong... the only difference between gary and the abolitionist is that one was a physical slave, and the other a mental/existential slave. both have risked harm to self for sake of greater good.

who cares... there is no point in what gary saw. the point is his motivation for action. what he did or did not see is totally irrelevant.

subjective... the rest of your argument is subjective drivel. the usual route taken by those who fail at responding to an objective argument.

Far be it for me to rain on your fairy tale view of the world.

Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different.

Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not.

There is no equality, only equality of assimilation.

Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control.

Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything.

There a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.

So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me.

martian31v · 11-12-2008, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut

Far be it for me to rain on your fairy tale view of the world.

Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different.

Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not.

There is no equality, only equality of assimilation.

Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control.

Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything.

There a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.

So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me.

WOW, DID I STRIKE A NERVE?

"Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different."
MY POINT EXACTLY... INFORMATION IS SUPPOSED TO BE FREE FOR ALL, BUT IT"S NOT. THEREFOR, GARY'S ACTIONS ARE JUST.

"Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not."
STATING TRANSPARENCY ONLY WORKS IN A PERFECT WORLD ONLY SERVES TO PROVE ITS SUPERIORITY OVER THE LACK THEREOF.

"There is no equality, only equality of assimilation."
RU SERIOUS. BESIDES NOT RELATING AT ALL TO THE GM CASE, EQUALITY JUST IS. IF WE ARE ALL 1 (or equal parts to the whole), THEN WE JUST IS.

"Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control."
GOVERNMENTS HAVE NO RIGHT TO WITHHOLD EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION. IF WE ARE ALL EQUAL PARTS OF A WHOLE, THEN WE AS INDIVIDUALS HAVE AN EQUAL RIGHT TO THE INFORMATION RELATIVE TO THAT WHOLE. WE ARE NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROPERTY OR SLAVE. WE ARE NOT OBJECTS TO BE CONTROLLED. WE ARE TO EQUALLY CO-EXIST.

"Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything."
DUDE YOU NEED TO TAKE LOGIC 101. YES, GOVERNMENTS STEAL FROM US EVERYDAY. THEY STEAL OUR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION AND WE WANT IT BACK... IT'S ACUALY NATURAL THAT THE UFO COMMUNITY ASK FOR AND DEMAND FOR THAT WHICH IS RIGHTFULLY THEIRS. (you sound a little disgruntled with the ufo community. but thats just my opinion.)

THE REST IS MORE IRRATIONAL DRIVEL THAT MAINTAINS NO RELATION WHATSOEVER TO THE UNJUST ARREST OF GARRY McKINNON. CLASSIC SOPHISTRY. ARE YOU A LAWYER, FED, OR SOMEONE WHO JUST CANT ADMITT WHEN HE/SHE IS WRONG.

ACTUALLY READ WHAT MURNUT WRITES AFTER HIS LAST QUOTE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AN EXISTENTAIL ARGUMENT RELEVANT TO THE JUSTIFICATION OF GARY'S ACTIONS. (here is the rest of his confusion.)

"here a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.

So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me."[/QUOTE]

ARE YOU KIDDING. NO PROOF TO U.S COMPLICITY IN WITHHOLDING INFORMATION REGARDING UFO"S??? ARE YOU REALLY GOING STATE THAT??HOW MANY DOCUMENTS DO YOU WANT??? REVERTING BACK TO THAT POSITION, IS TANTAMOUNT TO A COLLEGE GRADUATE GOING BACK TO 1ST GRADE.

GARY IS A SLAVE WHO GOT CAUGHT TRYING TO FLEE HIS SELF-APPOINTED MASTER. WE ARE FELLOW SLAVES WHO SHOULD STAND IN SUPPORT FOR GARY>

WHOEVER YOU ARE. YOU ARE WELL DIS-INFORMED. AND YOUR LAST STATEMENT IMPLYS THAT YOUR LYING.

gary's actions were just. contact Mr Podesta at http://change.gov/page/s/contact

Antaletriangle · 11-12-2008, 07:27 AM

Everyone has their own opinions on such matters;mine being i think it's a harsh treatment -he's probably already served a life sentence through worry and anxiety.O.K. he's 'done wrong'-i feel this is blown way out of proportion-and where's human compasssion?-This lad's beng tortured for essentially being found out and telling the truth;people talk about setting examples to the younger sector of the populace?-well, i feel the govts. on both sides of 'the pond' aren't setting any precedents for civilised behaviour.Where have the qualities formally known as compassion and understanding vanished to?
With this in mind i find it astonishing that we can call the west a democracy and a civilised community when the very act of running it is based on fear.
He owned up to his activities from the outset and he wishes to serve a sentence for it-now, i think that alone should command at least a little justice in terms of where his trial should be held-it's not asking for the crown jewels!
As far as Jacqui Smith stands, i find her actions highly distasteful as a 'labour' minister and a citizen of the U.K.
She hasn't a clue on the morals of socialism.
Apologies for any negative vibe from this post but everyone has their opinion and i'm with a fair trial in his own country.
it appears that the 'fear factory' is still in full production from how it currently stands.

TheGhost · 11-12-2008, 02:27 PM

Good luck, everybody, arguing with Murnut! lol

This guy clearly just doesn't get it. He equates computer hacking with evil, for crying out loud! And he probably thinks we should take his arguments seriously.

Murnut, you really shouldn't confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal, and you shouldn't confuse legal and illegal with lawful and unlawful.

The ends DO justify the means to a certain extent. Every civil right we have was once illegal. Trade unions, civil rights organisation, etc, etc, FOUGHT (physically usually) with police and the authorities to obtain the freedom and rights we enjoy today.

Governments are not benevolent (even the democratic [sic] ones). They do not bestow rights upon their people. Their raison d'être is control and they are constantly trying to tighten the noose around our necks - and are succeeding.

Murnut, you appear to be equating anyone who stands up to the PTB as evil; any action taken against them is evil. Those who stand up to them are as bad as they are. Are you serious, dude??

How many wars has Gary McKinnon started?
How many innocent civilians has he killed through sanctions?
How many people has Gary used as human guinea pigs for experimentation?
How many people (children in particular) have been kidnapped, tortured, raped and ritually sacrificed by Gary?

You imply that he or anyone who stands up to the PTB is evil. What is your definition of evil, please??

NOTHING that ANY of US could EVER do will EVER come close to even being compared in the same sentence to the EVIL that has been and is being committed by the PTB.

Murnut, I think you need a period of serious re-evaluation of your point of view.

murnut · 11-12-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost

Good luck, everybody, arguing with Murnut! lol

This guy clearly just doesn't get it. He equates computer hacking with evil, for crying out loud! And he probably thinks we should take his arguments seriously.

Murnut, you really shouldn't confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal, and you shouldn't confuse legal and illegal with lawful and unlawful.

The ends DO justify the means to a certain extent. Every civil right we have was once illegal. Trade unions, civil rights organisation, etc, etc, FOUGHT (physically usually) with police and the authorities to obtain the freedom and rights we enjoy today.

Governments are not benevolent (even the democratic [sic] ones). They do not bestow rights upon their people. Their raison d'être is control and they are constantly trying to tighten the noose around our necks - and are succeeding.

Murnut, you appear to be equating anyone who stands up to the PTB as evil; any action taken against them is evil. Those who stand up to them are as bad as they are. Are you serious, dude??

How many wars has Gary McKinnon started?
How many innocent civilians has he killed through sanctions?
How many people has Gary used as human guinea pigs for experimentation?How many people (children in particular) have been kidnapped, tortured, raped and ritually sacrificed by Gary?

You imply that he or anyone who stands up to the PTB is evil. What is your definition of evil, please??

NOTHING that ANY of US could EVER do will EVER come close to even being compared in the same sentence to the EVIL that has been and is being committed by the PTB.

Murnut, I think you need a period of serious re-evaluation of your point of view.

I don't claim that to stand up is wrong...but is that really the message Gary is sending?

He stood up to the point that he decided he did not like the outcome of his actions.

To call him a hero is a disgrace to all the serious researchers.

Anointing Gary as a hero has set back the credibility of serious researchers by years.

================================================== ========

How many here pay their taxes?

Nobody likes to pay them, one might say that we fund the PtB.

So should we just stop paying are taxes because it is "justified"

Or should we work within the law to reduce the burden on us?

Which way is more credible do you think?

martian31v · 11-12-2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost

Good luck, everybody, arguing with Murnut! lol

This guy clearly just doesn't get it. He equates computer hacking with evil, for crying out loud! And he probably thinks we should take his arguments seriously.

Murnut, you really shouldn't confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal, and you shouldn't confuse legal and illegal with lawful and unlawful.

The ends DO justify the means to a certain extent. Every civil right we have was once illegal. Trade unions, civil rights organisation, etc, etc, FOUGHT (physically usually) with police and the authorities to obtain the freedom and rights we enjoy today.

Governments are not benevolent (even the democratic [sic] ones). They do not bestow rights upon their people. Their raison d'être is control and they are constantly trying to tighten the noose around our necks - and are succeeding.

Murnut, you appear to be equating anyone who stands up to the PTB as evil; any action taken against them is evil. Those who stand up to them are as bad as they are. Are you serious, dude??

How many wars has Gary McKinnon started?
How many innocent civilians has he killed through sanctions?
How many people has Gary used as human guinea pigs for experimentation?
How many people (children in particular) have been kidnapped, tortured, raped and ritually sacrificed by Gary?

You imply that he or anyone who stands up to the PTB is evil. What is your definition of evil, please??

NOTHING that ANY of US could EVER do will EVER come close to even being compared in the same sentence to the EVIL that has been and is being committed by the PTB.

Murnut, I think you need a period of serious re-evaluation of your point of view.

THANKS GHOST. I NORMALLY WOULDN'T GET INTO ARGUMENTS WITH SOMEONE INCAPABLE OF RATIONAL DIALOG. BUT AFTER READING CLOSE TO 50 ANTI GARY POSTS (here and at open minds) I FELT IT NECESSARY TO PUT AN END TO HIS NONSENSE. MOST OF HIS STATEMENTS ARE COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THE FUNDAMENTAL POINTS SURROUNDING GARY'S HISTORICAL CASE. HOPE YOU CONTINUE TO CORRECT OUR FRIEND UNTIL HE CONCEEDS.

THE eXchanger · 11-12-2008, 08:29 PM

i wonder if Bill & Kerry are still helping him out ???

Antaletriangle · 11-12-2008, 08:34 PM

As far as i know they're trying but Gary and his lawyer have opted for the asperger's option-i think Kerry and Bill wanted him to try the approach of the essence of discovering hidden info.and hitting on a raw nerve with the american govt.approach-i'm sure they will provide an update soon on this.

murnut · 11-13-2008, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antaletriangle

As far as i know they're trying but Gary and his lawyer have opted for the asperger's option-i think Kerry and Bill wanted him to try the approach of the essence of discovering hidden info.and hitting on a raw nerve with the american govt.approach-i'm sure they will provide an update soon on this.

Example of the ufo community using Gary as a pawn to push their agenda before of Gary's best interests.

It is embarrassing

martian31v · 11-12-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXchanger

i wonder if Bill & Kerry are still helping him out ???

i think they are??? but so are many within the ufo community. (disclosure project, exopolitics group, eceti james gilliland.) but everyone needs to chip in and write to the obama transition team. http://change.gov/page/s/contact

Antaletriangle · 11-12-2008, 09:38 PM

Ross hemsworth on 'now that's weird':
There is finally some LIGHT at the end of the tunnel for Gary...

I have just heard back from my own local MP who says that many "front bench Conservatives" are outraged by the current UK/US extradition treaty and are calling for a debate in the house to have this one sided document changed! There seems to be a growing tide of MP's who feel that it does not protect UK citizens - and about bloody time too! We have been saying that for ages! Let's hope finally, Parliament gets its act together and stops the extradition of Gary McKinnon.

Ross
http://www.nowthatsweird.co.uk/news.php?readmore=38

freekatz · 11-13-2008, 04:38 AM

Now THAT'S some encouraging news. hopefully great news for Gary, but also for the rest of us. It's about time our feeble minded politicians stood up and stopped kowtowing to America...thanks for giving us this information

I really believe that hearing hopeful news can strengthen us on an energetic level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antaletriangle

Ross hemsworth on 'now that's weird':
There is finally some LIGHT at the end of the tunnel for Gary...

I have just heard back from my own local MP who says that many "front bench Conservatives" are outraged by the current UK/US extradition treaty and are calling for a debate in the house to have this one sided document changed! There seems to be a growing tide of MP's who feel that it does not protect UK citizens - and about bloody time too! We have been saying that for ages! Let's hope finally, Parliament gets its act together and stops the extradition of Gary McKinnon.

Ross
http://www.nowthatsweird.co.uk/news.php?readmore=38

THE eXchanger · 11-13-2008, 04:41 AM

well, i am sure, this whole thing
has been very hard on Gary,
and, his family --
there should NOT be secrets !!!

murnut · 11-13-2008, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXchanger

well, i am sure, this whole thing
has been very hard on Gary,
and, his family --
there should NOT be secrets !!!

Or income tax, or electric bills.....

Gary would have served his time by now, and would have been a free man for the last 3 years.

He bears the responsibility for his own actions

TheGhost · 11-13-2008, 02:04 PM

You're right murnut, there shouldn't be income tax. There is no law specifically requiring citizens of the UK or US to pay income tax.

It only goes to the central banks, anyway; it doesn't go towards paying for any services. Other taxes (property taxes, for example and council taxes) pay for our services, as well as VAT.

As for electricity bills: if the free energy technology that Gary was looking for was released, there would be no electricity bills!

Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut

Or income tax, or electric bills.....

Gary would have served his time by now, and would have been a free man for the last 3 years.

He bears the responsibility for his own actions

Antaletriangle · 11-13-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost

You're right murnut, there shouldn't be income tax. There is no law specifically requiring citizens of the UK or US to pay income tax.

It only goes to the central banks, anyway; it doesn't go towards paying for any services. Other taxes (property taxes, for example and council taxes) pay for our services, as well as VAT.

As for electricity bills: if the free energy technology that Gary was looking for was released, there would be no electricity bills!

Full agreement that was the main concern he had believe it or not-it's not so much the ET craft and entire UFO cachee it's the free nergy that has the govt. rumbled.

NancyV · 11-13-2008, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martian31v

i think they are??? but so are many within the ufo community. (disclosure project, exopolitics group, eceti james gilliland.) but everyone needs to chip in and write to the obama transition team. http://change.gov/page/s/contact

Why on earth would the Obama team be sympathetic with someone who hacked into military computers? Do you think a President Obama could possibly say it's okay for people to hack into secrets that they have no intention of releasing?

Nancy

martian31v · 11-13-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NancyV

Why on earth would the Obama team be sympathetic with someone who hacked into military computers? Do you think a President Obama could possibly say it's okay for people to hack into secrets that they have no intention of releasing?

Nancy

the obama team should be sympathetic to gary's case, because it represents a response (by gary) to an injustice perpetrated by factions within the U.S govn. yes, a president or any other rational/honest being should justify gary's actions for the reasons stated in the argument below. you know, the argument you tried to refute, but failed.

martian31v · 11-13-2008, 05:57 PM

i'll state it one more time for nancy and murnut.

BASIS FOR FREEDOM OF EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION
PREMIS 1. ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL.
PREMIS 2. EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE GIVES ADVANTAGE TO THE KNOWER. (I.E. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER)

CONCLUSION 1. ALL EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL HUMANS.

CONCLUSION 2. GARY IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SEARCH FOR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION.

IF AGREE THEN SEND ARGUMENT TO MR PODESTA AT http://change.gov/page/s/contact

IF NOT, THEN PLEASE IDENTIFY A FALSE PREMISE OR FAILURE OF PRIMES LEADING TO CONCLUSION

11-13-2008, 06:56 PM

murnut,

Thank you for providiing the link and summary. Being familiar with the govt, military, current administration and legal system I think I'll wait to see if this trial is really public and view the evidence presented before I make up my mind.

murnut · 11-13-2008, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martian31v

i'll state it one more time for nancy and murnut.

BASIS FOR FREEDOM OF EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION
PREMIS 1. ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL.
PREMIS 2. EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE GIVES ADVANTAGE TO THE KNOWER. (I.E. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER)

CONCLUSION 1. ALL EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL HUMANS.

CONCLUSION 2. GARY IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SEARCH FOR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION.

1)All humans are equal under the law.

You and Gary want to choose what laws you choose to obey.

Flaw #1

2) Knowledge is power if obtained lawfully, that is if it does not infringe the rights of others.

Knowledge obtained via poisoned fruit is worthless.

The road to disclosure cannot be built on lies.

Flaw #2

martian31v · 11-13-2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut

1)All humans are equal under the law.

You and Gary want to choose what laws you choose to obey.

Flaw #1

2) Knowledge is power if obtained lawfully, that is if it does not infringe the rights of others.

Knowledge obtained via poisoned fruit is worthless.

The road to disclosure cannot be built on lies.

Flaw #2

hi murnut. thank you for responding directly to the argument. but, i still disagree with your position. all humans are NOT created equally "under the law". if this were true, then during the time of legal slavery, slaves and non-slaves would be equal. the law does not make us equal. our nature makes us equal. we are equals apriori (before experience) not after.

YES, gary and i choose to disobey the inhumane practice of sequestering existential information. we are just in doing so because we are all equal, and the sequestering of existential informations negates that equality.

knowledge creates a disparity in power only when it is held in isolation from the whole of humanity. TPTB decided they were above the whole and kept the knowledge from us. this knowledge is rightfully OURS. therefor, any (non-violent) attempt at reclaiming it is just. ghost was spot on when he stated you were confusing the law with "what is right". the knowledge obtained by TPTB is poisoned, because they chose to withhold it from the whole. the road to disclosure is not based on lies, it is based on OUR fundamental right to KNOW our reality.

murnut · 11-14-2008, 12:57 AM

Believe me Martian...I know what you are saying, I used to feel the same way.

But the ufo community forfeits whatever "moral authority" it has when it attempts to take the law, even a flawed one, into it's own hands.

Whatever benefit comes of this, is tarnished, and will be disregarded by the public at large.

Believe it or not, the ufo community suffers from a lack of credibility.

Taking the "law" into ones own hands hurts the credibility of all of us.

I agree that there is a time and a place to disobey.

But at least have the courage to stand up for what you believe is right..(Gary)

Admittedly, he knew what he did was wrong, but did not think through the possible consequences.

If you want to make the case that he is entitled to look for the hidden knowledge, then I can make a case that he should have only hacked UK military targets.

All those who stood up against slavery and died, are diminished by your comparison to Gary.

They gave the ultimate sacrifice.

Gary has given nothing except cowardice, and my opinion is that he is probably lying, about seeing any Secret info, given the misinformation in the other parts of his defense.

I maintain that the biggest secret in the history of the world was not, is not hooked up to the internet.

He can be your hero.

He is not mine

martian31v · 11-14-2008, 01:32 AM

murnut, the ufo community or any human being forfeits nothing when it attempts to search for information that has been stolen from us. paraphrasing Ghost, all human/civil rights movements have been forced to break inhumane laws in order to achieve justice. i am not concerned with Gary admitting his guilt. i would make the same argument against his admittion. And no, you cannot make a case for limiting his search to U.K targets. Whomever witholds existential information from the public is subject to OUR inquiry.

None who stood up against slavery or any other civil/human injustice are diminished by my comparison. they stand beside gary and support his dissent from tyranny. the oppression suffered by slaves differs from our current oppression only by degree, not in kind. they experienced physical and mental oppression. while we experience mental oppression. both forms are oppressive, and both forms deserve our vigilant opposition. you can have your opinions about whether or not gary is lying about what he found. those opinions are irrelevant to my argument.

support gary mckinnon write the obama transition team today
http://change.gov/page/s/contact

murnut · 11-14-2008, 01:37 AM

We disagree Martian

11-12-2008, 07:27 AM	#3
Antaletriangle Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: U.K. Posts: 3,380	Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon Everyone has their own opinions on such matters;mine being i think it's a harsh treatment -he's probably already served a life sentence through worry and anxiety.O.K. he's 'done wrong'-i feel this is blown way out of proportion-and where's human compasssion?-This lad's beng tortured for essentially being found out and telling the truth;people talk about setting examples to the younger sector of the populace?-well, i feel the govts. on both sides of 'the pond' aren't setting any precedents for civilised behaviour.Where have the qualities formally known as compassion and understanding vanished to? With this in mind i find it astonishing that we can call the west a democracy and a civilised community when the very act of running it is based on fear. He owned up to his activities from the outset and he wishes to serve a sentence for it-now, i think that alone should command at least a little justice in terms of where his trial should be held-it's not asking for the crown jewels! As far as Jacqui Smith stands, i find her actions highly distasteful as a 'labour' minister and a citizen of the U.K. She hasn't a clue on the morals of socialism. Apologies for any negative vibe from this post but everyone has their opinion and i'm with a fair trial in his own country. it appears that the 'fear factory' is still in full production from how it currently stands.

11-12-2008, 02:27 PM	#4
TheGhost Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Merseyside, England Posts: 50	Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon Good luck, everybody, arguing with Murnut! lol This guy clearly just doesn't get it. He equates computer hacking with evil, for crying out loud! And he probably thinks we should take his arguments seriously. Murnut, you really shouldn't confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal, and you shouldn't confuse legal and illegal with lawful and unlawful. The ends DO justify the means to a certain extent. Every civil right we have was once illegal. Trade unions, civil rights organisation, etc, etc, FOUGHT (physically usually) with police and the authorities to obtain the freedom and rights we enjoy today. Governments are not benevolent (even the democratic [sic] ones). They do not bestow rights upon their people. Their raison d'être is control and they are constantly trying to tighten the noose around our necks - and are succeeding. Murnut, you appear to be equating anyone who stands up to the PTB as evil; any action taken against them is evil. Those who stand up to them are as bad as they are. Are you serious, dude?? How many wars has Gary McKinnon started? How many innocent civilians has he killed through sanctions? How many people has Gary used as human guinea pigs for experimentation? How many people (children in particular) have been kidnapped, tortured, raped and ritually sacrificed by Gary? You imply that he or anyone who stands up to the PTB is evil. What is your definition of evil, please?? NOTHING that ANY of US could EVER do will EVER come close to even being compared in the same sentence to the EVIL that has been and is being committed by the PTB. Murnut, I think you need a period of serious re-evaluation of your point of view. Last edited by TheGhost; 11-12-2008 at 05:55 PM.

11-12-2008, 08:29 PM	#7
THE eXchanger Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Spiritual eXplorer-Canada Posts: 4,915	Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon i wonder if Bill & Kerry are still helping him out ???

11-12-2008, 08:34 PM	#8
Antaletriangle Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: U.K. Posts: 3,380	Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon As far as i know they're trying but Gary and his lawyer have opted for the asperger's option-i think Kerry and Bill wanted him to try the approach of the essence of discovering hidden info.and hitting on a raw nerve with the american govt.approach-i'm sure they will provide an update soon on this.

11-12-2008, 09:38 PM	#11
Antaletriangle Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: U.K. Posts: 3,380	Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon Ross hemsworth on 'now that's weird': There is finally some LIGHT at the end of the tunnel for Gary... I have just heard back from my own local MP who says that many "front bench Conservatives" are outraged by the current UK/US extradition treaty and are calling for a debate in the house to have this one sided document changed! There seems to be a growing tide of MP's who feel that it does not protect UK citizens - and about bloody time too! We have been saying that for ages! Let's hope finally, Parliament gets its act together and stops the extradition of Gary McKinnon. Ross http://www.nowthatsweird.co.uk/news.php?readmore=38

11-13-2008, 04:41 AM	#13
THE eXchanger Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Spiritual eXplorer-Canada Posts: 4,915	Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon well, i am sure, this whole thing has been very hard on Gary, and, his family -- there should NOT be secrets !!!

11-13-2008, 05:57 PM	#19
martian31v Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 63	Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon i'll state it one more time for nancy and murnut. BASIS FOR FREEDOM OF EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION PREMIS 1. ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL. PREMIS 2. EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE GIVES ADVANTAGE TO THE KNOWER. (I.E. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER) CONCLUSION 1. ALL EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL HUMANS. CONCLUSION 2. GARY IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SEARCH FOR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION. IF AGREE THEN SEND ARGUMENT TO MR PODESTA AT http://change.gov/page/s/contact IF NOT, THEN PLEASE IDENTIFY A FALSE PREMISE OR FAILURE OF PRIMES LEADING TO CONCLUSION

11-13-2008, 06:56 PM	#20
sleepingnomore Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon murnut, Thank you for providiing the link and summary. Being familiar with the govt, military, current administration and legal system I think I'll wait to see if this trial is really public and view the evidence presented before I make up my mind.

11-14-2008, 12:57 AM	#23
murnut Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Philly Posts: 179	Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon Believe me Martian...I know what you are saying, I used to feel the same way. But the ufo community forfeits whatever "moral authority" it has when it attempts to take the law, even a flawed one, into it's own hands. Whatever benefit comes of this, is tarnished, and will be disregarded by the public at large. Believe it or not, the ufo community suffers from a lack of credibility. Taking the "law" into ones own hands hurts the credibility of all of us. I agree that there is a time and a place to disobey. But at least have the courage to stand up for what you believe is right..(Gary) Admittedly, he knew what he did was wrong, but did not think through the possible consequences. If you want to make the case that he is entitled to look for the hidden knowledge, then I can make a case that he should have only hacked UK military targets. All those who stood up against slavery and died, are diminished by your comparison to Gary. They gave the ultimate sacrifice. Gary has given nothing except cowardice, and my opinion is that he is probably lying, about seeing any Secret info, given the misinformation in the other parts of his defense. I maintain that the biggest secret in the history of the world was not, is not hooked up to the internet. He can be your hero. He is not mine

11-14-2008, 01:32 AM	#24
martian31v Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 63	Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon murnut, the ufo community or any human being forfeits nothing when it attempts to search for information that has been stolen from us. paraphrasing Ghost, all human/civil rights movements have been forced to break inhumane laws in order to achieve justice. i am not concerned with Gary admitting his guilt. i would make the same argument against his admittion. And no, you cannot make a case for limiting his search to U.K targets. Whomever witholds existential information from the public is subject to OUR inquiry. None who stood up against slavery or any other civil/human injustice are diminished by my comparison. they stand beside gary and support his dissent from tyranny. the oppression suffered by slaves differs from our current oppression only by degree, not in kind. they experienced physical and mental oppression. while we experience mental oppression. both forms are oppressive, and both forms deserve our vigilant opposition. you can have your opinions about whether or not gary is lying about what he found. those opinions are irrelevant to my argument. support gary mckinnon write the obama transition team today http://change.gov/page/s/contact Last edited by martian31v; 11-14-2008 at 01:36 AM.

11-14-2008, 01:37 AM	#25
murnut Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Philly Posts: 179	Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon We disagree Martian