Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayable.

[alternative-answer]

This is not a matter of morals, we are conditioned to believe and feel morally obliged and society polices itself. Personaly I don't feel any sense of moral obligation at all, the law is the law, if you do not follow the law s we all know we would have to account for ouselves, it is no different for large companies, organisations, they also must be called to account. I don't care for ipods and delis, I do however have a sense of what is right, fair and just.

Originally Posted by alternative-answer

I do however have a sense of what is right, fair and just.

Then we have a commonality we can work from.


What is right just and fair. That sword cuts both ways.
If someone cannot believe you would repay your obligation why would they loan to you in the first place?
That is what the world wide credit crunch is all about. It starts in the hearts of men. Men set policy for institutions.

Quid pro quo.

That is my point.

Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Baggywrinkle

Then we have a commonality we can work from.


What is right just and fair. That sword cuts both ways.
If someone cannot believe you would repay your obligation why would they loan to you in the first place?
That is what the world wide credit crunch is all about. It starts in the hearts of men. Men set policy for institutions.

Quid pro quo.

That is my point.

Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

I think your point is judging, something you do really well. When people pay a debt over and over and interests rate and rules keep changing so much one cannot keep up, when people loose their homes to lies, it's time to say stop. And when banks sell loans to other banks with different rules, it's time to say stop. And when governments allow the rules to change to the detriment of a nation, it is time to say stop. And when that same government gives corporations a huge bailout to companies that have had obscene profits, it is time to say stop!!!!!!

In insiders circles, banks are known as legal thieves.

At one point, my husband had to pay a deductible of over $24,000 because he ended up in intensive care. Did we get in debt? Yes, we did. I was not about to let him die.

Get off your high horse and stop judging others.

Originally Posted by Esther

I think your point is judging, something you do really well. When people pay a debt over and over and interests rate and rules keep changing so much one cannot keep up, when people loose their homes to lies, it's time to say stop. And when banks sell loans to other banks with different rules, it's time to say stop. And when governments allow the rules to change to the detriment of a nation, it is time to say stop. And when that same government gives corporations a huge bailout to companies that have had obscene profits, it is time to say stop!!!!!!

In insiders circles, banks are known as legal thieves.

At one point, my husband had to pay a deductible of over $24,000 because he ended up in intensive care. Did we get in debt? Yes, we did. I was not about to let him die.

Get off your high horse and stop judging others.

So did you pay it? Did you make arrangement to pay eighty dollars a month taking food off the table to do it until it was paid. I have Miss Esther and I have been in your shoes. My daughter was hit by a car and we did.

Or did you cry poor mouth and skate like another poster in this thread bragging how he paid pennies on the dollar for foolish debt and offering to show others how to do it?

Don't try to play high and mighty with me till you have
paid for your neighbors medicine out of your own pocket. I work in health care and I've done that several times on occasion through the years for my patients and coworkers.

We made an interest free loan to a man who needed a leg up of two thousand dollars three years ago. He paid me a thousand dollars back when I threatened him with
the felony of grand theft. Three years later he still owes me 1000 and is full of excuses. Fifty five dollars a month
would have seen it paid by now. I'd have been happy with ten dollars a month because it shows good faith.

I don't have too much sympathy for the sense of entitlement that I see on a daily basis among the very rich and the very poor. I love and have great respect for the working stiff who comes to me who has no insurance and no respect at all for the medicare recipient that I bring gatoraide for who then complains that they wanted orange and not green. Or the man driving the jag flipping his medicare card at me

Don't talk to me about high and mighty until you have been so poor that you have to save for months to buy a pair of shoes at the good will. My wife has been. Have you ever counted potatoes to make sure you had enough to last the week? My wife has.

Buy a sixty thousand dollar home instead of a four hundred thousand dollar home just because you can.

If your government has gone rogue on you and I agree with you that it has, honey, it's your own fault. You get the government you deserve. I suggest that you scrape together the money, perhaps join with your neighbors to buy a copy of Naomi Wolfs book Give Me Liberty. Then get up off your duff and do something about it.

I'm impressed with action, not excuses. If someone has done you a favor, you are in debt. Don't pay it back, pay it forward. Do your part to make the world a better place. America's greatest generation is all but gone now.
They had ethics. They had morals, and they had honor.
Do you?

[Orion11]

Originally Posted by alternative-answer

This is not a matter of morals, we are conditioned to believe and feel morally obliged and society polices itself. Personaly I don't feel any sense of moral obligation at all, the law is the law, if you do not follow the law s we all know we would have to account for ouselves, it is no different for large companies, organisations, they also must be called to account. I don't care for ipods and delis, I do however have a sense of what is right, fair and just.

at baggy wrinkle to,
i think your still missing the point a little, but its all good.

<3 <3 <3

[Orion11]

ps... to whoever left me the -rep comment,(understandable)
but if i knew your nym i propably would contact you, but I dont know who the rep was left by, so I cannot contact the one who said "contact me i can help", thank you, Bless

[Humble Janitor]

Baggywrinkle has a good point but I wonder how he/she feels about student loans? If someone wants to pursue a higher education and they are poor, is that also considered stretching beyond your means?

[Shellie]

I agree with Baggywrinkle that this was all a choice. You CHOOSE. It's not even a matter of "simple lifestyle". It's a matter of following principles.

Look at the Islamic community in the US. They don't pay interest. They don't deal in usury. After one generation in this country, know what? Because dad didn't have to pay interest on the mortgage, he can pay cash for most of the the kids' college. The kids stay home until they are married and can afford to move out- which means their salaries get spent on essentially NOTHING. I have known many 25-30 year-olds who have written a check for the entire cost of their own home. Just think; 30 years old and no student debt, no car payments, no mortgage. They don't have credit cards either.

Originally Posted by End_Times012

Baggywrinkle has a good point but I wonder how he/she feels about student loans? If someone wants to pursue a higher education and they are poor, is that also considered stretching beyond your means?

Quid pro quo.

If you borrow it, you pay it back. Period.

Even if you thrash them in court for breaking the contract
the HONORABLE thing to do is make good on your end of
the agreement because it is the right thing to do.

I could not have graduated without student loans. It took me ten years to pay it back. We took food off the table to do it.

But then, I'm just a rambling scumbag for feeling that way.

Blessings all

[mmerlinn]

Why worry about it? - Let the government do it for you.

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pro...029&id=9333928

[alternative-answer]

I don't worry about it, it's all relative, it's just part of the experience the ride we call life.

[TAXMASTER]

here is how i see it. laws will come and laws will go, doesn't make them morally or ethically right. we reap what we sow. if we knowingly receive an item or service of value and elect to pay for it later then we have an obligation to keep that contract regardless of the law. it is called integrity. even if the banks illegally harass you when you are late, it is because you did not keep up your end of the deal.

the same justification can be used for a poor man if he wants something from a rich man so he decides to take it. it is called stealing. yet if the poor man agrees to pay in the future for an item he gets from the rich man, and he later decides that the rich man already has more money than he needs, so the poor man decides not to pay him, is this not stealing too? you received the item by deception in both instances.

i think we are all on the "rung on the ladder of life" due to our decisions. it is called free agency and we decide how prosporous we are going to be. if we cheat a man out of $50 then next week our car breaks down and it costs us $60, it is karma coming back to us. picture it as casting a stone out in the middle of a big puddle. the ripples go to the edge of the water and then the land casts the ripple back to the center where the rock landed. whatever we dish out comes back to us. jesus taught us to turn the other cheek.

if the bad banker is doing wrong, don't borrow money from him. if you do borrow, then pay it back thankfully. give your money mental energy and pay your debts with gratitude. you will find that as your ripple out changes, so will the ripple coming in.

Namaste'

[alternative-answer]

While I appreciate peoples comments, it is clearly people own conditioning that makes them keep suggesting they there is some moral and ethical obligation. They are projecting thier own conditioning out onto others. People have the right to self determine and no one should be moralising or judging. if you were truly free you would be doing the same.

Originally Posted by alternative-answer

While I appreciate peoples comments, it is clearly people own conditioning that makes them keep suggesting they there is some moral and ethical obligation. They are projecting thier own conditioning out onto others. People have the right to self determine and no one should be moralising or judging. if you were truly free you would be doing the same.

Then we can agree to disagree. You do have the right to be wrong.

[Average Joe]

I do not agree with trying to cheat your way out of debt..

You borrow money, you know the terms of repayment, you pay it back.

Obviously people can get into difficulties due to changes in income etc, and have to sometimes go bankrupt, or renegotiate their debt, and that is the risk the lenders take.

But I find the idea of for arguments sake, trying to get a £10,000 car loan written off because somebody didn't dot an i or cross a t, absolutely morally repulsive. YOU KNOW you borrowed that money and are trying to cheat your way out of it.

The main reason we have the credit crisis, is a) banks lending to much money, and b) people not paying back because they can't afford it or are trying to dodge out of it.

Some will say "serves the banks right" and maybe so, but doing this makes you no better than them.

I thought the people on this forum would have morals and standards and and understanding of what is right and what is wrong considering all the love, light and peace flying around.

I completely agree with baggywrinkle.

[Mike_Jetson]

Soooooooo many people completely missing the point and its not your fault, you just dont understand the intricate law breaking the banks do to create the debt.

If you understood how the banks use your agreement to create money and then use this money to pay retailers before you have even got home then you may understand.

Obviously you know yourself you have borrowed money that should be paid back but what you dont know is that in effect, the bank has created an account in your name using your signed agreement and a nice slight of hand trick. This account is then used to pay for your purchases. Then they send you a bill. They use YOU to create money that belongs to YOU and then BILL YOU after youve spent it, thus technically paying for it twice. Once to the retailer and once to the bank, plus the interest if you dont pay it off short term. They even sell certain papers that were used to create this debt at near full value so they dont give a toss if you default. Why do you think they SELL your debt to third parties? Because they make even more money. If they were being ethical this information would be disclosed on your credit agreement but then you wouldnt sign it. Also they would state on this agreement which asset of theirs was used to fund the debt. Therefore if you dont pay, the loss would be allocated.....which it most certainly is not. The curtains are getting drawn back folks and the battles will be big

Regardless of how this thread started and the companies out there than class your debt as unenforcable, what myself and other freedom seeking individuals do is different and when you realise what the **** is going on youll soon see the ethical side is firmly with us.

Now anyone who wants to know more can find me on facebook at:-

The Liberty Wealth Club - http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=30880572383

soon to go online - http://www.freedomandwealth.net

and club site http://www.libertywealthclub.com


average Joe those 2 reasons for banking crisis are unfortunately nowhere near correct

[Average Joe]

Well Mike you seem to know a lot more about the banking crisis than me, so what do you reckon is the causes.

As for what you said about what banks do.....well nobody said they were saints and the are in it for maximum profit are they not? We know this when we take a loan. What you said, if correct...and sounds good...does seem a bit unethical, but really what difference does this make to you or me if we borrow money?

If you want to borrow money and the rate of repayment is acceptable, that is your only concern surely?

I've had debts before, and suffered with them due to the way they spiral, due to borrowing more to live on because too much income was servicing debts, and it went on. Yeah they made some money out of me alright.

I got out of that situation, it is very doable if you can negotiate the freezing of interest on your cards etc, but I couldn't sleep at night if I basically tried to get it completely written off on technicalities.

Whether the banks deserve it or not is irrelevant to me, morally I wouldn't go down that route.

[THE eXchanger]

if you "borrow" from anyone ...
then you should "pay it back"

if you short change someone...
somewhere, you will end up getting short changed back

getting things,
before you earn the things,
is a costly way of having things,
esp. since, if you did NOT do the right energetic things,
to deserve them in the first place

i believe in borrowing money for three things

1) school

2) a house

3) a car, is you need it, to do what earns you a living,
and, you can absolutely NOT, be without one
(1,000,000's of professionals, in new york/toronto/london,
etc., live without having a car)
and, you rent one, when you absolutely need to have one

if you are into your credit cards/and,
that is how you live - month to month
minimum payment to minimum payment
it is a good idea to realise,
that money is energy, and, energy can be raised,
and, normally, if you raise your energy,
and, order up the universe,
by offering "good exchange",
all that you require, will be given to you

i also agree with "baggywrinkle"

on the topic of "the money exchangers-or banks"
they thrive on your greed, and, your ability to say
charge it, when you can NOT afford to charge it
you are an asset to them, as long as you pay
you are a liability to them, if you do NOT pay
but, either way,
it is a liability to you/and, rarely are assets you acquire
on time, worth the price you pay to get them that way,
they are normally worn out/and, useless,
by the time, you ever get around to paying them off

if you have bad debt / consolidate it
and, then, if you do NOT want to pay cash for something,
then, do without it

at this point, the only thing i have,
is a mortgage, and, i hope to soon get rid of that,
by paying off 25% of the balance of it,
once a year
(yup...you can pay off a house in 5 years,
if you really focus on it)

also, perhaps more of us,
need to explore private mortgages,
instead of bank ones

my great-great grandfather was a money lender/
and, helped many immigrants, get into business/and, into houses/and, farms, esp. since banks would NOT help them,
and, he never charged anyone a lot of interest,
his rates, were 1% less than the bank--
and, where quite appealing to many people,
also, he never had to take anyone to court,
and, no one ever took him to court,
which says, a great deal about what a true money lender,
is all about

we need to exchange with one another,
and, side-swipe the bandits !!!

learn to barter/
and, trade with your neighbours
pass on things that you no longer use to someone else
buy somethings you need second hand

cheers/
susan
the eXchanger

[Average Joe]

After my experiences I don't believe in borrowing money period. Not anymore.

I don't have a mortgage, never took one out, partly because I had so much debt at the time when I was interested in buying a house, and then house prices shot up, which took mortgage affordability above my disposable income at that time.

I could afford a mortgage now and if I was ever going to borrow money ever again, I would only consider a mortgage, nothing else.

But I just don't want to go down that route again.

I have no loans, no credit cards, no store cards anymore, everything I buy these days is cash. My current car was bought cash etc. Everything, new TV, new cooker, redecorating, clothes, whatever, cash. If I don't happen to have the cash I don't buy it.

The banks do not control me anymore. Its liberating and satisfying.

[THE eXchanger]

that is great "average joe"
who is NOT really an "average" joe
i think he is a way "above average" joe

love/susan
the eXchanger

[Average Joe]

Originally Posted by eXchanger

that is great "average joe"
who is NOT really an "average" joe
i think he is a way "above average" joe

love/susan
the eXchanger

Thank you susan.

I think average joe suits me though.

[isotelesis]

Check this out:

http://www.the7thfire.com/debt_elimination/media.htm#01

[alternative-answer]

Excellent, we should have the right to challenge bad practise, it is about recognising our own power and worth in effecting change on an individual and global level.

[Average Joe]

Recognising your own power and worth by ripping off creditors, and that is effectively what you are doing, negates everything about what you want to become and who you are.

Like I said, personally I couldn't sleep at night if I took the opportunity to walk away from owing a company x amount of money, knowing full well that we had an agreement.

These alleged bad practices by banks are no excuse for doing this, IMO.

Lets think of it this way, a person wants to be a good person and spread love and light, yet on the other hand wants to rip off or steal money that they owe out. That is hypocritical.

What is it that people say? I can think of two things that usually hold fairly true....

1 "Treat others as you would wish them to treat you"

2 "What goes around comes around"

In other words, going down this route to free yourself of debt, may give you a temporary feeling of empowerment and satisfaction, but I just feel you are going to be laying yourself open to a whole lot of trouble just waiting to come back at you later down the line.

Love, light, peace to you all but beware if I owe you money I'll try and rip you off.

Joe.

[QueenOfLeon]

These criminals have been robbing us for years. Literally taking the food out of babies mouths and feeding it to the fat cats! The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, it was engineered that way, so if I can finda loop hole to stop filling there pockets, phuck yeah im gonna take it! Now, my debts were run up by the fact that I had no disposable income at all and had to live off my credit card, its not as if I was going out and buying gucci handbags!! Also I ahve never defaulted and am always consious of my bills, they always get paid and I have always felt that I should pay it back, HOWEVER, now I know how utterly corrupt it all is, and how we have been manipulated, I say they can swivel.

It should be our god given right to have shelter and food without having to ask for pay outs and die through stress in the process of providing for our families! Meanwhile sickingly rich people get things free!!

They want the banks to fail, they set up this system so that it will be brought down so I say help them. If they are that bloody concerened why dont they just right off everyones mortgage and freeze interest. Yeah they will lose alot, but not everything!!
But they want it to fail.

PROBLEM, REACTION, SOLUTION.