The Bible, Our Conclusion. by Norval and Gale

[Norval]

As this "legal case" against the nations and people is now upon all who live on this planet,
Gale and I only present what the bible has to say about it.

These points of fact from the bible are not arguable, only discussible. When ones try to
worm their way around and out of what is stated, feigning ignorance and attempting
denial, we can easily see their squirming for what it really is.

Given the hard core facts of what the bible presents will give ones the truth that can read
it.

[whitecrow]

Originally Posted by Esther

The most faithful biblical translation is the Pe****ta by Dr. George Lamsa, an Assyrian scholar, because it is directly from the Aramaic and bypasses the major difficulty proposed by using another language as an intermediary. I have read many different translations. The Pe****ta is different and better.

http://www.aramaicpe****ta.com/George%20Lamsa.htm

Thank you Esther, for a great post. I will second the Pe****ta. It was the first Bible I read cover-to-cover, back in the early 70s. It has many subtle but intriguing differences from our traditional Bible - no bombshells, just small things that make sense. For instance, instead of the camel through the eye of a needle, the Pe****ta says it's harder for a rope to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. A footnote explains that in Aramaic, the difference between camel and rope is simply a small dot like the dot on an i.

When I simply read the Bible, I find the NIV handy. It's readable and reasonably accurate. For study, though, I need every translation I have spread out on the table before me.

[100thmonkey]

"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."
-Anne Lamott

Originally Posted by arcora

"His perspective" [God's] is that he created us and, as such, we belong to Him.

Which doesn't supercede our inherent rights as sentient freewill beings...

He is sending a just, fair and incorruptible king to govern us - perhaps because we have proven ourselves unable to govern ourselves properly.

But first to wipe two thirds of us out? That's the just and fair thing?

As I say, mankind has hardly been given the chance, let alone the education, to prove ourselves. For most of humanity's history the secrets of enlightenment have been kept hidden.
Not only that but programs have been put in place to keep us that way, to play on our lower nature and stir it up to dominance, rather than putting in place education programs to specifically enlighten people.
Imagine if the Illuminati were actually open and willingly shared and helped the people they rule instead of abusing them. The world would be revolutionised, a golden age.
It's only now in the internet age that that's changing.

The thing is though, we have to do it for ourselves, in order for the final product to be stronger - and we CAN do it for ourselves. It's starting already.

For some outsider to come along and just solve it all for us defeats the point of our creation.

Anyone who is ardently opposed to being held as chattel or doesn't want to abide by the new rules can opt out of the system.

Really? I hadn't heard that part of the story yet, aside from those killed and incarcerated...?

Yet also, are you saying you're happy to be considered chattel, really?

I'm starting to lose confidence in your rationality, let alone your self-esteem (or your opinion of others around you).
Humility is one thing, but this is extreme.

It isn't our place to judge Him. It is our place to be judged by Him.
He makes the rules.

There's no basis for that claim, other than the self-proclaimed authority of the bible. The potter and clay argument. Which, in those areas, I would say is a tool for controlling populations.
With the point ultimately being to 'Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's' ...meekly.


The only judgment that matters is each individuals upon themself.
I am important and valuable to myself. No one has a right to deny that or take that from me. Any one, Creator or not, who would say to me, "No, you are not worthy, you will be forced to submit to my will..." is deluded.
Only our physical body can be constrained by force, not our eternal spirit, our true self.

There's a saying you might have heard, 'Judge not lest ye be judged'.
If someone is going to decide something for someone else they are inevitably going to be brought into question themselves by those they're imposing upon, looking for qualifications, hypocrisy, etc...

It's self-evident that the creation is based upon the creator's simple desire for experience, and that we are part of the creator.

The fact that the creator created in the first place shows that he didn't feel complete. He wasn't happy with eternal solitude and desired more. He needed further experience, and so created the mechanisms to provide that - the Universe (and being the only thing in existence, the substance he used for this creation was his own self).
Therefore, in this creation he is subject to the growth and change that it's experience inevitably brings -indeed it is the purpose (as opposed to the claimed unchangeability of the bible's 'god').

So the 'rules' are only those natural scientific laws, not moral impositions.
There is no objective basis for any higher morality from him than from ourselves - in fact the point is that he is 'hands off' in such matters.

The creator doesn't care about 'ruling'. The only thing that comes close to 'justice' in the universe is the fact he's not going to permanently harm himself (us) and we will all ultimately return to our source, through the awareness that life experience inevitably brings.

He's not coming to us, we're heading to him.
There will be no one destroyed 'forever'.

Our existence is not about judgement, just experience.

[Norval]

Esther,

"No one can teach us anything. We take ourselves through a journey. And most
importantly, the only thing that really matters is what we have within our hearts."

I, for one, am very grateful to those that have taken their time to teach me. As a retired
master shipwright in boat building and repair, or as a researcher of the bible, those that
taught me have earned my respect and gratitude. Yet in the end, yes, it is your own
"heart" that will judge you.

Whitecrow,

"When I simply read the Bible, I find the NIV handy. It's readable and reasonably
accurate. For study, though, I need every translation I have spread out on the table
before me."

Oh gawd, I remember those days of researching books on tables. There were two 1.2 m
x 2.2 m (4 foot by 8 foot) tables at the bible study center and many times they were two
books deep doing cross comparisons. I am so grateful for computers now.
You do realize that the Pe****ta was translated from the original Kione Greek new testament
writings into Aramaic, so the part you mentioned won't work in the original Greek
writings. But it is interesting, thank you. The "Needles Eye" was actually a small narrow
single person entrance along side the main gates.

Note that the Rich man getting into heaven was going to be all most impossible, as stated
in the bible. Now look at this very forum and note the many threads and readers about
Economy and Currency, ones can clearly see where people's interest lays.


There will always be a form of currency and the Kingdom is no different in that. The
whole key to understanding the bible is by accepting, or at least entertaining the thought,
that it represents the governance of the galaxies. While many attempt to twist it's simple
truths that were wrote in a language that had but four to five thousand words in them. Not
a whole lot of room for error or tampering there. The old "laws", of what is called the old
testament, are to be used as guide lines for repayment of harm. It is the attitude of the one
that caused the harm that could gain forgiveness, as taught by the writings of the new
testament. As it is written, those that do harm should be confronted first in private by the
one knowing of the wrong. If the person persists in wrong doing then the matter is taken
up with another another "neighbor" as witness. If the person still persists in wrong doing it
is brought before the community council. That is for simple matters. Matters of a more
grave harm can be dealt with swiftly and should be.

[Patrick]

Norval there are two Jesus's.
One is the physical corruptible image made by man, and the second is the SoT [Spirit of Truth] which makes up the body of the Spirit -of which God, the Father of the man Jesus -was within the flesh.
We are all the same body, and will die in this body of our death, because the Father lives in each of us.
********************
They (Serpentine Race[s]), are coming and will be quite Open about it, like in the old days.

Norval, you are helping corrupt the humble and meek souls that have been seeking wisdom.

When SoT comes in, Satan is dethroned and the host can allow the Spirit to lead it in the paths of righteousness.

You will be looking for a throne made of hands, a building, in Jerusalem.
Have you not read the simplest of Truth and that God's temple is not made of hands, but the human body, the host -seated in the humble and meek of this world?

Continue at your own loss.
Or change direction and help.
Remember your first love Norval and Gale.
***********************

pso

[Patrick]

Yes there is evidence of these wars in the heavenly bodies.
Yes, there is a war within the members of the flesh -in an effort to dethrone Satan, which is born naturally in the host.

Only SoT [Spirit of Truth] can win this spiritual Armageddon.

Your research is also misleading.

The enemy above -a macrocosm of the enemy within, will be coming in physical form.
However, if God be for you, whom can be against?
Yes , God's army is coming back, but it is not what you think.

I demand a trial.
I have a right to be in this host.
The moment they allowed this to happen, they broke their own contract.
My advocate is in the Father, my witness is in the Mother.

The only death coming will be at the hands of our own kind, and the only God[s] coming are the same usurpers as before.

There is no escape for them, but for us, when we are unclothed in this flesh, we will be secured.

And if we are alive here, when God returns, we will light up the worlds.
They will not, and so they will have nowhere to hide.

Now ask yourself, is this to hunt them down and slay them?
No, it is to be an living example.

let God be the judge and deal with them.
It is only our place to judge those WITHIN, not without.
Should I also now, judge you and Gale?

This is a property rights issue.
God is the judge for humanity, we are the judge for those which crept in unawares and misled the ignorant.


pso

[arcora]

There is ample evidence of physical 3-d beings working behind the scenes and calling the shots for the illuminati and our 'leaders'.

Why doubt that there will be a physical 3-d return of the King?

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by arcora

There is ample evidence of physical 3-d beings working behind the scenes and calling the shots for the illuminati and our 'leaders'.

Why doubt that there will be a physical 3-d return of the King?

There is no doubt there will be such a return.
But it is the flesh that will rule the flesh, and their hope -permanently -the spirit.

IF we collectively give consent for their rule, then we give up our rights, all of them.

the true King is what Jesus taught, is within us.
These are my brothers and sisters, mothers, and fathers...

His death was /is our death.
His cross is/was our cross.

Until we see the host as a physical manifestation of the Spirit within, and not the other way around, we will be duped and subjected to tyrants.

******************
The 3d World is just that, the World.
We are in the world, not of it.

That si the message of Jesus
Not the idolized corrupted image of a god-man, but of a flesh and blood human which understood that only way for God to free humanity, was to become humanity.

We are that humanity.
They will not succeed.
we know this because we will transmogrify, while they will wither and die.

**********************

[Norval]

It seems to me that this physical world suits my physical body just fine. I greatly enjoy all
my tactile sensations this body provides. Should I be changed in the blink of an eye to
another physical form, I am reassured by what is also written that it too will be a physical
one.

Transmogrify
to change in appearance or form, esp. strangely or grotesquely; transform.

Transform
1. to change in form, appearance, or structure; metamorphose.
2. to change in condition, nature, or character; convert.

Your choice I guess.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Norval

Esther,


I, for one, am very grateful to those that have taken their time to teach me. As a retired master shipwright in boat building and repair, or as a researcher of the bible, those that taught me have earned my respect and gratitude. Yet in the end, yes, it is your own "heart" that will judge you.

You were ready, otherwise the teaching would not have occurred. I am grateful as well, but I was ready.

Originally Posted by Norval

Whitecrow,


Oh gawd, I remember those days of researching books on tables. There were two 1.2 m x 2.2 m (4 foot by 8 foot) tables at the bible study center and many times they were two books deep doing cross comparisons. I am so grateful for computers now. You do realize that the Pe****ta was translated from the original Kione Greek new testament writings into Aramaic, so the part you mentioned won't work in the original Greek
writings. But it is interesting, thank you. The "Needles Eye" was actually a small narrow single person entrance along side the main gates.

"These are claims that are highly contested in Western Christianity. The common misconception that the New Testament was originally penned in Greek still persists today in a vast majority of Christian denominations. Most scholars and theologians acknowledge that Eshoo Mshikha, the Apostles, and the Jews in general spoke Aramaic indeed many instances of Aramaic survive in the Greek New testament manuscripts. However, they still maintain that the New Testament was penned in Greek by the Apostles and disciples of Mshikha.

Aramaic Lectionary - about
A.D. 550. Pierpont Morgan Library
New York, N.Y.

The Church of the East has always rejected this claim. We believe that the Books of the New Testament were originally penned in Aramaic, and later translated into Greek by first-century Gentile Christians in the West, but never in the East, where the Aramaic was the Lingua Franca of the Persian Empire. We also hold and maintain that after the books were translated into Greek, the Aramaic originals were discarded, for by now the Church in the West was almost completely Gentile and Greek-speaking. This was not the case in the East, which had a Jewish majority (especially in Babylon and Adiabene) for a much longer period. Even when the Church of the East became mostly Gentile, the Aramaic was preserved and used rather than translated into the various vernacular languages of the regions to the East of the Euphrates river."

http://www.pe****ta.org/initial/pe****ta.html

These regions have been isolated for hundreds of years and their language and history has been preserved, regardless of the West's misconception and erroneous concept that only Western theories are valid.

[Norval]

Then I guess the choice is ours.

[100thmonkey]

Originally Posted by Norval

The whole key to understanding the bible is by accepting, or at least entertaining the thought, that it represents the governance of the galaxies.

Originally Posted by arcora

Why doubt that there will be a physical 3-d return of the King?

There likely will be a revelation, or arrival, of ET's on Earth sometime, maybe soon, and they may well be from some Galactic Federation or Council or similar. I wouldn't deny that.

However, any claims by them to have the authority of the Creator himself, or by their King to be the Creator incarnate, are no more valid than can be claimed by the rest of us, as either individuals or communities.

We are all the Creator incarnate, we all have freedom and authority over our own minds.

If ET's arrived I'd be the first to want to greet them.
If they start trying to impose their own laws then that's another thing. It would then have to be an invasion and conquest for them to claim any 'authority' greater than the one's already in place over us.

If indeed they start claiming ties to the bible and judaeo-christian mythology for legitimacy in this, then I would see that as a warning sign that these could well be our own NWO types raising a false flag - following the script given in the bible, which they know many are expecting to be fulfilled.


If, on the other hand, they arrived and liberated mankind from it's present domination, bringing enlightenment, etc. I couldn't complain, yet even then it would have to be done tactfully, carefully and through open negotiation rather than military force, as between any peaceloving countries here on Earth (I know, I know...).

So I do agree that this is firstly an Exopolitical situation, which is a whole 'nother level of complexity.
I also believe there is truth to the bible stories, of ET contact, etc, but the bible is not alone, as other cultures and mythologies have just as much to offer in that regard - and the bible itself is a distillation of many of these, albeit twisted by religious/control motives, etc. as you suggest.

[warngen]

Originally Posted by 100thmonkey

There likely will be a revelation, or arrival, of ET's on Earth sometime, maybe soon, and they may well be from some Galactic Federation or Council or similar. I wouldn't deny that.

However, any claims by them to have the authority of the Creator himself, or by their King to be the Creator incarnate, are no more valid than can be claimed by the rest of us, as either individuals or communities.

We are all the Creator incarnate, we all have freedom and authority over our own minds.

If ET's arrived I'd be the first to want to greet them.
If they start trying to impose their own laws then that's another thing. It would then have to be an invasion and conquest for them to claim any 'authority' greater than the one's already in place over us.

If indeed they start claiming ties to the bible and judaeo-christian mythology for legitimacy in this, then I would see that as a warning sign that these could well be our own NWO types raising a false flag - following the script given in the bible, which they know many are expecting to be fulfilled.


If, on the other hand, they arrived and liberated mankind from it's present domination, bringing enlightenment, etc. I couldn't complain, yet even then it would have to be done tactfully, carefully and through open negotiation rather than military force, as between any peaceloving countries here on Earth (I know, I know...).

So I do agree that this is firstly an Exopolitical situation, which is a whole 'nother level of complexity.
I also believe there is truth to the bible stories, of ET contact, etc, but the bible is not alone, as other cultures and mythologies have just as much to offer in that regard - and the bible itself is a distillation of many of these, albeit twisted by religious/control motives, etc. as you suggest.

Excellent post!

[Gale]

Monkey and warngen, already asked and answered.

Originally Posted by Norval

Monkey, for the One Hundredth Time
We have stated, several times, the outcome of ones actions is what judges ones self. So,
your choice, is it not? You live under the laws/rules/codes, of Australia, do you not? It
will be your choice to accept the coming governance by an intergalactic King, will it not?

Personally, myself, after having studied the codes of the Kingdom as stated in the bible,
have agreed to what it says and will lay down my life for that government. The
government, of which I live under here in the usa, bestowed upon me diplomatic
immunity, by reason of impartiality, as a representative of the Kingdom of the Universe. It
was not my call, it was by decree of the usa government. We pose no threat to them and
do not condone any physical action against the governments of this world at this time, and
they know that. Gale and I are only investigators, researchers, someone that wanted to
find out what was going on. We did.

Everyone has the choice to decide for themselves when events happen, what to do. You,
your neighbor, the ones down the block, and across town. All will decide for themselves.

Thank you Esther.

[BeaTnik-BandiT]

Originally Posted by 100thmonkey

There likely will be a revelation, or arrival, of ET's on Earth sometime, maybe soon, and they may well be from some Galactic Federation or Council or similar. I wouldn't deny that.

However, any claims by them to have the authority of the Creator himself, or by their King to be the Creator incarnate, are no more valid than can be claimed by the rest of us, as either individuals or communities.

We are all the Creator incarnate, we all have freedom and authority over our own minds.

If ET's arrived I'd be the first to want to greet them.
If they start trying to impose their own laws then that's another thing. It would then have to be an invasion and conquest for them to claim any 'authority' greater than the one's already in place over us.

If indeed they start claiming ties to the bible and judaeo-christian mythology for legitimacy in this, then I would see that as a warning sign that these could well be our own NWO types raising a false flag - following the script given in the bible, which they know many are expecting to be fulfilled.


If, on the other hand, they arrived and liberated mankind from it's present domination, bringing enlightenment, etc. I couldn't complain, yet even then it would have to be done tactfully, carefully and through open negotiation rather than military force, as between any peaceloving countries here on Earth (I know, I know...).

So I do agree that this is firstly an Exopolitical situation, which is a whole 'nother level of complexity.
I also believe there is truth to the bible stories, of ET contact, etc, but the bible is not alone, as other cultures and mythologies have just as much to offer in that regard - and the bible itself is a distillation of many of these, albeit twisted by religious/control motives, etc. as you suggest.

100thmonkey, Excellent post !

I would like to add that POSITIVE ETs, will never intervene in human business,
and to such extent, that they would even let us enslave ourselves if we choose it, just to respect our FREEWILL.

salute.

[Norval]

While Gale and I may have not been the first to alert the PTB, governments and so on,
about the bible ET connection back in 2002 with out the religious implications, we are not
the last to have made, or are making, this connection. Good questions and thoughts
Monkey, yet we have already answered those questions and ideas if you but read our
threads and posts about what the bible says.

It is good that many would question these things about who has what authority over
whom. We could entertain many ideas or philosophies yet it comes down to this simple
point. Mankind has been given ample time to read the document submitted by that
Kingdom authority (bible) and today is about to be held accountable to it's codes and
laws, just as the rest of the sentient intelligent life of the universe does, and have agreed
upon.

We are to look at all the evidence around us, what we see is the evidence of design and
incredible engineering, and all for us. Then we have the "us" a created sentient intelligent
life form called mankind or human. This, the document clearly states. Mankind were all
born under that Kingdom governance, but because of our being created with the qualities
we possess it was demanded by some that we be tested as to those qualities. A major
part of that testing is now over and we are about to enter into full blown membership in
that Intergalactic Kingdom.

Those that opposed this governance by a King have attempted to make their point and
have lost, both in thought and deed. The majority of the peoples of the galaxies have
agreed to this governance by a King, now that same choice has been offered to mankind.
It is as simple as being in truth to your heart that you ARE a good neighbor and will
conduct yourselves accordingly towards all sentient intelligent life forms of like mind. If
not, and you decide to do harm, be assured there is someone with the authority and
power necessary, appointed to this position, that will do what is necessary if your
neighbors don't, and then deal with why the neighbors didn't deal with it.

Simple codes to live by and apply to every sentient intelligent life form in the galaxies. Our
choices to make, the decision is for each and every person to make for themselves. The
document is in most peoples hands around the world today or is now easily obtainable for
most. Mankind can now comprehend that document, the bible, for we all can entertain
the ideas of an intergalactic government, because of our technological achievements and
our knowledge of the sciences, and some of "theirs".

[alice goes nuts....]

i wonder sometimes how many strange ways and directions an ego can take just to become satisfied, how is it possible to create so many crappy theories.....i m impressed, but not in the good way!!!!

[unloadedgunn]

I have to chime in here, 100th Monkey, that YOU are more lucid, enlightened, and objective on the issues at hand than the so called, or should I say "self proclaimed" experts. I see someone here in Norval who would have us all believe he has eschewed "religious BS", and yet speaks in the same totalitarian terms as any bible thumper you would ever hope to meet.

It seems he already has his place in the New Galactic Order (or whatever this agenda being ramrodded down all our throats is called) and has no problem with the new version of the same old thing because he himself is an insider. All we need is another "concerned theological educator" to help the PTB along on their goose stepping march of manifest destiny. I am personally saddened that I have not read the word "sovereignty" in this thread once (maybe I missed it).

Seems like we are throwing out the bathwater, and replacing it with koolaid.

The bottom line for me is simple...we all have an internal compass, and inherently know right from wrong...PERIOD. WE DO NOT need a descended alien king in our affairs any more than we need a pedophile priest, a child sacrificing pope, or an adulteress stoning imam. The days of giving over our rightful birthright (or own personal godhood) to others are OVER, spread the word.

[BeaTnik-BandiT]

Hum....this reminds me a movie, hum wait......

......OK got it !

STAR WARS ! with Darth Vader and friends !

(By the way, the Death-Star in the movie looks pretty much like Iapetus, strange, isn't it ?)

salute.

[BeaTnik-BandiT]

Originally Posted by unloadedgunn

I have to chime in here, 100th Monkey, that YOU are more lucid, enlightened, and objective on the issues at hand than the so called, or should I say "self proclaimed" experts. I see someone here in Norval who would have us all believe he has eschewed "religious BS", and yet speaks in the same totalitarian terms as any bible thumper you would ever hope to meet.

It seems he already has his place in the New Galactic Order (or whatever this agenda being ramrodded down all our throats is called) and has no problem with the new version of the same old thing because he himself is an insider. All we need is another "concerned theological educator" to help the PTB along on their goose stepping march of manifest destiny. I am personally saddened that I have not read the word "sovereignty" in this thread once (maybe I missed it).

Seems like we are throwing out the bathwater, and replacing it with koolaid.

The bottom line for me is simple...we all have an internal compass, and inherently know right from wrong...PERIOD. WE DO NOT need a descended alien king in our affairs any more than we need a pedophile priest, a child sacrificing pope, or an adulteress stoning imam. The days of giving over our rightful birthright (or own personal godhood) to others are OVER, spread the word.

I agree wholeheartedly.

take care.

[unloadedgunn]

Glad to hear that bandit. That one book written and compiled by men, which contradicts itself COUNTLESS times, which was assembled by a cabal of like-minded, power hungry despots at the council of Nicea, could possibly contain more than a glimmer of truth is absurd. Anyone thinking "just embrace my book, and nobody gets hurt!" is inherently wrong, and if you are not yet aware of this spiritual axiom and its TRUTH, then you probably need to work on your OWN moral compass, discernment, etc.

It is all a bunch of dogma masquerading as new age spirituality, and how appropriate in light of it being Halloween and all. I can only hope is is well intentioned misdirection. Perhaps the neighbors we should be worried about have originated this thread???

[Norval]

Glad to hear we are getting our points across.

[BeaTnik-BandiT]

Originally Posted by unloadedgunn

Glad to hear that bandit. That one book written and compiled by men, which contradicts itself COUNTLESS times, which was assembled by a cabal of like-minded, power hungry despots at the council of Nicea, could possibly contain more than a glimmer of truth is absurd. Anyone thinking "just embrace my book, and nobody gets hurt!" is inherently wrong, and if you are not yet aware of this spiritual axiom and its TRUTH, then you probably need to work on your OWN moral compass, discernment, etc.

It is all a bunch of dogma masquerading as new age spirituality, and how appropriate in light of it being Halloween and all. I can only hope is is well intentioned misdirection. Perhaps the neighbors we should be worried about have originated this thread???

Halloween ? hehe, yeah unloadedgunn, appropriate.

Discernment is of prime importance.

Your are correct, The 'Dark Side' are masquerading as saviors, and their plan will NOT work as long as Humanity is informed and gets rid of it's victim mentality.

There are Universal laws that are at work in the Universe, whether we believe in them or not.
I have talked about this on another thread, but it's good to put it back:
The Universe works like a homeostatic system: it always self adjusts to keep
it's state of equilibrium:

In humanity's case, if we have a victim mentality, we will inevitably attract oppressors, parasites, dictators...etc
This is not going to work, if we choose to 'save ourselves', to get rid of that old habit of counting on someone else word, will, institutions..etc

Same thing as for a Staged Second Coming, the PTBs count on a Human majority brainwashed in believing that an embodied 'spiritual master' is coming to herd them.
It's good to remember that too many lives were taken in the past for not giving allegiance to a book ! (here the Bible).
All this sickness was imposed by force. (See FEAR)
And then they created their own system of laws to support their power and keep us in 'obedience'.

Because of our 'duality', the trick to get out of this cycle, is to stay 'balanced' and connected with the Source.
Simple as that.

For the OPs intentions?.....time will tell.

salute.

[unloadedgunn]

The only "points" you are getting across are these: 1) That you have read volumes about the Christian faith, and obviously this written hodge-podge of contradiction fills an emptiness in you like nothing else. Were this not the case you would not be an ordained minister. Your references to a god who is an "engineer" is very patriarchal and Judeo-Christian sounding, but what would one expect from a minister? 2) That despite the mutual admiration society that you have going there with your fellow researcher, for what you perceive (mistakenly) as new and different insights about the bible, you are spewing the same medieval subservience that has gotten all of humanity into the mess we most certainly are in NOW. 3) Anyone gravitating toward scripture which has been used as the justification of untold millions of deaths, for use as anything other that the toilet paper it obviously is, needs some help.

The aforementioned was written with all due respect. I apologize for my strong words, but all the lucid literature I have been reading of late tells me to speak up LOUD AND CLEAR and denounce BS when I see it. It is time that this stuff gets called out. I'm sure the world is full of regretful people who wished they had spoken out about their respective truths, and I won't be one of them. Nor does it seem that either Norval or Gale will be.

[unloadedgunn]

A great big "amen" to ya bandit!!!