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Old 11-04-2008, 09:35 PM   #201
zorgon
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Default Re: Gary McKinnon Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by freekatz View Post
I would think that the last thing the government wants at this point is a lot of publicity, that would get the public curious.
Really? If that was true... they would have handled it quietly... simply...

All it would have taken was a deal... with a promise to never say another word or get the full sentence...

Or a car accident... or a sudden illness

The fact that they are pushing this to this point is actually BROADCASTING the affair... DELIBERATELY drawing public attention to it...

Think about that... many more important people have simply 'disappeared' in the past...


So WHEN is he actually being brought over? I though the last appeal was done?
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:40 PM   #202
Kathleen
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Default Re: Gary McKinnon Case

So you see this as prelude to disclosure? Or make an example or both?
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:45 PM   #203
murnut
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Default Re: Gary McKinnon Case

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Originally Posted by zorgon View Post
Really? If that was true... they would have handled it quietly... simply...

All it would have taken was a deal... with a promise to never say another word or get the full sentence...

Or a car accident... or a sudden illness

The fact that they are pushing this to this point is actually BROADCASTING the affair... DELIBERATELY drawing public attention to it...

Think about that... many more important people have simply 'disappeared' in the past...


So WHEN is he actually being brought over? I though the last appeal was done?
Gary has a new hope...the Saviour Obama.

If that doesn't work, he might try the Pope.

You raise some excellent points Zorgon.

At one point in time i thought Gary might be some sort of catalyst for disclosure.

But that brief moment faded when it became apparent that he was scared to face the music.

The only thing that makes sense is Gary is simply a computer hacker who got caught intruding into the US military, and they won't drop the case as much as "poor gary" wants them to.

This is all much ado about nothing more than military hacking.
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:46 PM   #204
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I hate the forum in green

how can I change it...or have I been hacked?
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:02 PM   #205
David
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I guess because this is a government offense, trial will be held behind closed doors and the public will never get to hear the true story.
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:23 PM   #206
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

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Originally Posted by David View Post
I guess because this is a government offense, trial will be held behind closed doors and the public will never get to hear the true story.
No, it will be in open court.

What Gary saw or did not see, is not what is on trial, therefore irrelevant.

Why do we feed the enigma of making this case, something that it is clearly not.
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:24 PM   #207
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Wow...the forum is back to blue.

Thank you dear PtB
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:37 PM   #208
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Default Re: Poor Gary McKinnon

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Originally Posted by Bill Ryan View Post
Hi, KL:

That is one great graphic.

May we send this to him? We're in close touch. We'd invite him to post here, but he's legally prohibited from using a computer.

As you may have read on Camelot, we've been working behind the scenes to organize him a US lawyer, and also passing on other information that might help.

You may also know that Dan Burisch and Marci McDowell have gone on record to say that they will be willing to be called to the witness box under penalty of perjury to state what they know about the secret space program. This is pretty huge... more on this later.

Very best, Bill
My gut feeling tells me they will never allow this trial to be public in any way. There is no justice in the US. They will probably lock him away in Langley for a very long time and hope interest wanes in this case.
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:40 PM   #209
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Default Re: Poor Gary McKinnon

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Originally Posted by sleepingnomore View Post
My gut feeling tells me they will never allow this trial to be public in any way. There is no justice in the US. They will probably lock him away in Langley for a very long time and hope interest wanes in this case.
dream on
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:39 AM   #210
NancyV
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I have just finished reading this entire thread and a few very good logical arguments and comments have been posted, most notably by Murnut and Zorgon (in my opinion of course). If Gary had not been an inept, stoner who seems to have been playing at this like it was a computer game, what with leaving threats on government computers and hacking from a DIAL UP computer, for heavens sake!!!!, he probably would have been "offered" a choice - go to work for the government, or be disappeared.

He's most likely only being made an example of because he's a foreigner AND he is a bungler. GREAT hackers are a true danger to the PTB, and most of them end up working FOR the government or having an accident. Inept hackers are a bother and occasionally get made examples of. Whether or not Gary was a random choice out of the many inept hackers, so what. He played the game, he took his chances knowing there were laws he was breaking that might have serious consequences, and he did it very stupidly. Far from a hero I feel that he is now just a rather pathetic pawn for both sides. He is being used as an example by the PTB and he's being used as a "hero" or cause celebre by the UFO or alternative community. He's still just a pawn, and apparently not very intelligent or he might have cut his losses when he had the chance. If you're going to play with the big boys, get ready for the backlash if you are found out.

As far as breaking laws to find out information, I have no real problem with that, but only if you're an EXPERT at finding out things and BETTER at it, than the guys who are keeping things secret. Otherwise you should stick to finding out through channels where you won't be tangling with the PTB, because they play for keeps, and for the most part the guys in the intelligence field aren't stupid just because they work for the government. Underestimating them is a sign of very poor judgement.

Gary obviously (at least to me) was a loose cannon with no finesse and no knowledge of what he was dealing with, or if he had some knowledge, maybe the dope smoking gave him a false and ignorant sense of bravado. It is imperative to truly know the scope of your own abilities. If you decide to do something illegal, no matter WHAT your motivations and whether or not you agree with the law, be prepared for the results if you get caught. That's just plain common sense.

You may think the US Government is a "terrorist" government, but they are no different than other governments. The true PTB manipulate all governments. If you want to be a counter terrorist against "terrorist" governments you darn well better train and prepare yourself instead of thinking that just because you have certain beliefs in "truth" and "goodness" that makes you better than the bad guys. You have to know how to be BADDER than the bad guys, and yes, it can endanger your own soul, at least temporarily. You will often be using the same means you despise to fight that which you wish to destroy. But it's all a game in the long run, isn't it.

That is ONE way to fight the PTB, but there is another way. Develop your innate "spiritual" powers to the point where you don't have to fight with the same tools the PTB use. Do not engage with them on their level and don't play their game. If you remain in conflict you will perpetuate the game you seem to want to escape. As Murnut says, what will you replace them with? Just more of the same. In order to end the game you may only end it for yourself! This battle will never really be a group effort. But if you do want to continue living in their world of conflict, fear, action and reaction, please at least do not be a bungler like "poor" Gary McKinnon was and still seems to be.

Nancy
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Old 11-05-2008, 04:11 AM   #211
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I do feel bad for Gary.

I know he is sick.

He is making himself sick perhaps, worrying about what was going to happen to him.

He would have been out long ago had he not just faced up to it.

There was never any threat of Guantanamo, or military tribunals, or torture.

Gary got very poor advice along the way, or maybe he got good advice that he chose to ignore.

Gary if you read this, get this over with.

Make a deal and move on with your life.

Don't listen to those that would use you to further their own cause
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:03 PM   #212
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Default Re: Ask MPs to sign Early Day Motion No. 2388 sample letter

Use this web page to find your MP and email the letter:

http://www.writetothem.com/

People need to HASSLE their MPs about this. I sent an email and got a reply from my MP the next day saying, essentially, he is not interested. So, I will be going to see him at his surgery on Friday to speak to him in person about the matter!!
Maybe you could do the same thing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by anonypony View Post
This is a sample letter asking your MP and all MPs to sign Early Day Motion No. 2388.

The best thing you can do, is write your own, second best - modify the one here to suit you view, if all of the above is not an option please feel free to use this one add mp name and you signature at the end.

BW
AP

MP -
House of Commons
London, SW1A 0AA

Dear MP

I am writing to you that you may consider and sign the Early Day Motion No. 2388 ‘Extradition of Gary McKinnon’ (brought by his local MP David Burrowes, 30/10/2008) at the earliest opportunity.

The purpose of EDM 2388 is to have the current Extradition Treaty between the UK and the USA amended whereby vulnerable people, such as those with Aspergers Syndrome, a form of Autism, or other mental health issues could not be extradited to the US until they have been given express assurances from the US authorities that in the event of being found guilty, and facing a period of imprisonment, they would be immediately repatriated to serve their sentence in the UK.

Thus the vulnerable would be close to their family, and within reach of long term doctors or specialists who may have worked with them in the past and understand their requirements.

Accused by the US authorities of hacking into and damaging US military and NASA computers, Gary McKinnon admits entering their computer systems in search of information about UFO’s and free energy but denies causing damage.

Gary has recently been confirmed by a number of leading professionals in the field as having Aspergers Syndrome, a form of Autism. It was brought to his family’s attention by members of the Autism community who recognised common traits in his behaviour during recent media exposure. Unfortunately the discovery and diagnosis only came to light after the various unsuccessful appeals in the UK against his extradition.

The emphasis of my letter to you concerns Gary, yet it has far wider implications. Whether you feel Gary should be extradited or not, is it not imperative that UK citizens are protected by their country? Whilst the extradition treaty currently subjects all UK residents to the unanswerable and unproven demands of a foreign state, allowances must be made, as I believe in the Netherlands and Israel, to protect the vulnerable.

Thank you for reading this – please sign EDM 2388 and request your fellow MP’s to also sign. This issue is far too important – I urge you to view it and act with compassion.

Yours sincerely,
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:18 PM   #213
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

"Gary has has due process in his extradition process"

Really?? Because the Extradition Act 2003 does not require the US authrorities to provide the British courts with ANY evidence before demanding the extradition of a British citizen.
This is part of the fast-track extradition "treaty" between the US & Britain which was only signed by the British side and not the Americans (so not really a treaty, then).
The Extradition Act 2003 constitues TREASON by the British government, in my humble opinion, as it favours the interests of a foreign government over the interests of British citizens.

Would you like it if you faced extradition to Britain with no evidence of an alleged crime being presented by British authorities at your court hearing?

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence? The claim of a crime is now enough for British citizens to be extradited to the US.


Quote:
Originally Posted by murnut View Post
Apony,

Not exactly. Gary has has due process in his extradition process.

He has lost his appeals.

Just how many do you think are in on the "Get Gary" campaign?

Yes, he has not had his day in court yet.

But he has done nothing except try to avoid it.

I hope he gets off, I really do.

I just hope he does not further damage the credibility of the Real heroes along the way.

Paid to post my ass
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:44 PM   #214
Antaletriangle
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Recent links to Gary's plights,nov 5th news:
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articl...y-mckinnon.htm
British politicians are coming out in support of self-confessed hacker Gary McKinnon to prevent him serving a jail term in the US.

McKinnon faces imminent extradition to the US to face trial for allegedly hacking more than 73,000 computers belonging to the US Army, Navy and Department of Defense.

David Burrowes, shadow justice minister, has urged home secretary Jaqui Smith to halt McKinnon's extradition unless the US allows him to serve any sentence in Britain.

cont.on link above.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/security/0,1...9539057,00.htm
New song by gary mckinnon,'Only a fool':
Gary McKinnon, the British hacker, has been gaining support from politicians for his fight against extradition to the US, but the UFO obsessive has also won fans amonst MySpacers.

McKinnon has managed to storm the MySpace charts with a tune of his own creation called Only A Fool.

The song reached number five in the MySpace video chart within 48 hours of being posted.

"Don't stop don't say it don't matter," sings McKinnon, "If it ain't easy, try harder; Only a fool would let it go."

Hit the arrow button to hear what must be one of the most unexpected tunes of the year.


http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/ne...975/view.phtml

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Old 11-05-2008, 06:54 PM   #215
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I understand what you are saying, but extradition does not mean conviction.

Gary should NOT have admitted his guilt, but he did.

Gary, I am sure you will feel better when this is behind you.

Get it over with, and go back to having a life.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
"Gary has has due process in his extradition process"

Really?? Because the Extradition Act 2003 does not require the US authrorities to provide the British courts with ANY evidence before demanding the extradition of a British citizen.
This is part of the fast-track extradition "treaty" between the US & Britain which was only signed by the British side and not the Americans (so not really a treaty, then).
The Extradition Act 2003 constitues TREASON by the British government, in my humble opinion, as it favours the interests of a foreign government over the interests of British citizens.

Would you like it if you faced extradition to Britain with no evidence of an alleged crime being presented by British authorities at your court hearing?

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence? The claim of a crime is now enough for British citizens to be extradited to the US.
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Old 11-05-2008, 07:04 PM   #216
Orion11
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

hi mur, well said.

and your page was really green?? lol
ive never seen that before here....
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:05 PM   #217
TheGhost
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

"extradition does not mean conviction" - he shouldn't even be facing trial in a foreign country!

"Gary, I am sure you will feel better when this is behind you." - he's facing up to seventy (70) years in prison. At what point, specifically, does he put it behind him if he is convicted and sentenced to seventy years??


I ask you again: how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?


Quote:
Originally Posted by murnut View Post
I understand what you are saying, but extradition does not mean conviction.

Gary should NOT have admitted his guilt, but he did.

Gary, I am sure you will feel better when this is behind you.

Get it over with, and go back to having a life.

Last edited by TheGhost; 11-05-2008 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:46 AM   #218
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion11 View Post
hi mur, well said.

and your page was really green?? lol
ive never seen that before here....
it was green...bright lime green
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Old 11-06-2008, 02:08 AM   #219
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
"extradition does not mean conviction" - he shouldn't even be facing trial in a foreign country!

"Gary, I am sure you will feel better when this is behind you." - he's facing up to seventy (70) years in prison. At what point, specifically, does he put it behind him if he is convicted and sentenced to seventy years??


I ask you again: how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?
The 70 years is exaggerated, 90 % of hacking crimes have sentences below 5 years, most serve less than 2, which is about what Gary was offered in a plea agreement, WHICH HE REFUSED.

Gary should not have admitted his guilt, but he did.... and his health has been made worse by the ufo community putting their concerns before Gary's.

They have urged Gary to fight their fight for them.

Shame on them!

They are just as much to blame as anyone for this debacle.

But the ultimate blame lies with Gary himself.

Make a deal Gary, you will feel so much better.

And if you want to improve your chances of a deal in your favor, stop with the insinuations of Guantanamo, torture, and tribunals.

You might catch more flies with honey.

Your offer of vinegar, has obviously not worked.

PC's offer of Danny B and Marcia M to testify in your behalf only serves the agenda of the ufo fringe, and has no legal standing in relation to the charges.

Those who get favorable plea agreements, generally apologize and are contrite.

Those that do this serve less than 18 mos on average.

Please get some competent legal advise.
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:56 PM   #220
TheGhost
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

The 70 year possibility is not an exaggeration whatsoever. He found some VERY sensitive information about the US military's capabilities (non-terrestrial officers).

The plea agreement he was offered was not legally binding for the US authroities, i.e. it wasn't worth the paper it was written on, therefore it was not an offer he could accept.

He admitted to "hacking" (and I use that term loosely) but he did not admit to causing damage to the computers, which is what the US authorities are charging him with (lo-and-behold, precisely $5,000 worth of damage per computer - the minimum necessary to bring charges).

Gary is not the one who is making insinuations. The prosecutor said he wanted to see him "fry" - insinuating the death penalty (or perhaps an acccident?).


And I ask you yet again: how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?


Quote:
Originally Posted by murnut View Post
The 70 years is exaggerated, 90 % of hacking crimes have sentences below 5 years, most serve less than 2, which is about what Gary was offered in a plea agreement, WHICH HE REFUSED.

Gary should not have admitted his guilt, but he did.... and his health has been made worse by the ufo community putting their concerns before Gary's.

They have urged Gary to fight their fight for them.

Shame on them!

They are just as much to blame as anyone for this debacle.

But the ultimate blame lies with Gary himself.

Make a deal Gary, you will feel so much better.

And if you want to improve your chances of a deal in your favor, stop with the insinuations of Guantanamo, torture, and tribunals.

You might catch more flies with honey.

Your offer of vinegar, has obviously not worked.

PC's offer of Danny B and Marcia M to testify in your behalf only serves the agenda of the ufo fringe, and has no legal standing in relation to the charges.

Those who get favorable plea agreements, generally apologize and are contrite.

Those that do this serve less than 18 mos on average.

Please get some competent legal advise.
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Old 11-06-2008, 02:33 PM   #221
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
The 70 year possibility is not an exaggeration whatsoever. He found some VERY sensitive information about the US military's capabilities (non-terrestrial officers).

The plea agreement he was offered was not legally binding for the US authroities, i.e. it wasn't worth the paper it was written on, therefore it was not an offer he could accept.

He admitted to "hacking" (and I use that term loosely) but he did not admit to causing damage to the computers, which is what the US authorities are charging him with (lo-and-behold, precisely $5,000 worth of damage per computer - the minimum necessary to bring charges).

Gary is not the one who is making insinuations. The prosecutor said he wanted to see him "fry" - insinuating the death penalty (or perhaps an acccident?).


And I ask you yet again: how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?
First you hire a competent attorney, then at the trial you put on a defense.

But if he was smart, he would plead.

That is what most caught hackers do.



Garys lawyers have exhausted his legal options in fighting the extradition charges.

How many appeals has he had? 3? 4? Is everyone out to get Gary?

Think about that.


You my friend, have been sold on the hype.

But if he is actually foolish enough to go to trial, then his lawyers will put on the best defense he can....which is what exactly?

The evil PtB defense?

The Danny B defense?


In fact Gary has no defense other than to ask for proof of the damage....since he already admitted the hacking.

The anti American statements did not help either.

Guess what, they have the a paper trail of repair receipts.

Then you may say that all of the evidence is faked.

But where is the evidence that supports Gary innocence?

Even if he really saw what he says he saw, and he had evidence, this would only be evidence of his guilt.

I still maintain that this info Gary claims to have seen, has never been on open servers.

Last edited by murnut; 11-06-2008 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 11-06-2008, 06:36 PM   #222
TheGhost
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

"Is everyone out to get Gary?" - no, the US military/Shadow Government is out to get him and they are exerting pressure on others so that they can get their hands on him.
Asking the question "Is everyone out to get Gary?" suggests you think my arguments mean there must be a vast conspiracy involving thousands of people, or something. Obviously this is not the case.
You appear to be resorting to the arguemnet that if I believe he is being treated unfairly or even illegally it must be because I think it is being done by a vast network of people and it is unthinkable that a vast network of people could/would be out to get him and so I must be wrong. This is a very poor argument.

You seem to think that he should/deserves to be in this situation.
1) the alleged crimes occurred on British soil and so if any charges are brought it should be under British law in a British court,
2) the Extradition Act 2003 is essentially a treasonous document - selling out the rights of British citizens in favour of a foreign government.
He should not be faced with extradition to and trial in a foreign country, whatsoever.

"You my friend, have been sold on the hype." - I've been sold on the hype?!? You do not (or cannot) give me any counter arguments to the points I have made and so you resort to ridiculous statements like that.

"if he is actually foolish enough to go to trial" - it's foolish to defend oneself, is it?? Wow, that is a very big statement. I wonder what kind of justice would be served if you created the laws of the land!

"The evil PtB defense? The Danny B defense?" - there is a provision in law that says, essentially, that if the authorities have gone to excessive lengths (disproportionate to the alleged offence) to pursue the alleged criminal then the jury can find the defendant not guilty even if they think he did commit the crime. It is a way of telling the authorities that the jury thinks their money can be better spent (catching real criminals)! So, to some extent, yes, the "evil PtB" defence could be employed.
Because the authorities have pursued Gary so long and arduously the jury may very well be interested in the content of what he found as it is undoubtedly the reason why the authorities want him so badly. If Gary had hacked into a toy store's database of merchandise no-one would ever have heard his name. It could therefore be a factor in his defence.
When the jury hear about what he found, possibly corroborated by Dan Burisch/Marcia McDowell, it may persuade them to find him not guilty as a way of sending a message to the "evil PtB" that they want the UFO/free-energy information released to the public.

"paper trail of repair receipts" - are you serious?? Seriously, are you serious??

"where is the evidence that supports Gary innocence?" - defendants are not required to prove their innocence. What country/legal system are you in??

"Even if he really saw what he says he saw, and he had evidence, this would only be evidence of his guilt." - it would be evidence that he is telling the truth about hacking into the systems and finding some very interesting information about off-planet activity (which is something he has already admitted). It would NOT be evidence of causing precisely $5,000 worth of damage per computer (which is what he is being charged with).

"I still maintain that this info Gary claims to have seen, has never been on open servers." - why do you asert this? Who are you? Were they 'open' servers, if it is necessary to hack into them?


Murnut, are you really unable to figure out on your own that the charges against him are trumped up? $5,000 worth of damage per computer - the minimum necessary to bring charges. Not $6,500 here, $7,000 there; no, $5,000 each. Think about it.

I'll ask you once again (with regard to his extradition hearing): how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide any evidence?




Quote:
Originally Posted by murnut View Post
First you hire a competent attorney, then at the trial you put on a defense.

But if he was smart, he would plead.

That is what most caught hackers do.



Garys lawyers have exhausted his legal options in fighting the extradition charges.

How many appeals has he had? 3? 4? Is everyone out to get Gary?

Think about that.


You my friend, have been sold on the hype.

But if he is actually foolish enough to go to trial, then his lawyers will put on the best defense he can....which is what exactly?

The evil PtB defense?

The Danny B defense?


In fact Gary has no defense other than to ask for proof of the damage....since he already admitted the hacking.

The anti American statements did not help either.

Guess what, they have the a paper trail of repair receipts.

Then you may say that all of the evidence is faked.

But where is the evidence that supports Gary innocence?

Even if he really saw what he says he saw, and he had evidence, this would only be evidence of his guilt.

I still maintain that this info Gary claims to have seen, has never been on open servers.

Last edited by TheGhost; 11-06-2008 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 11-06-2008, 06:45 PM   #223
freekatz
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

If all this information that Gary accessed is so top secret and hidden for our own "good" , shouldn't the people whose job it was to protect this vitally "dangerous for the public" information be the ones being prosecuted? For their utter incomptence? Surely these people should be the ones on trial...not Gary.
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Old 11-06-2008, 07:21 PM   #224
leeboy
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by murnut View Post
i agree....since when is a common hacker some kind of ufo hero?

Are ufologists above the law?
do any of you remember or know of robin hood? For those who dont, he basically fought the establishment stole there food and money and dished it out to the poor so they could survive. Isnt what gary did or tried to do a mere modern day version of this. Robin hood is considered a hero of the people. Sometimes we all have to do things that are against the rules to get what we feel in our hearts is right.instead of people judging him and saying he got what he deserved when will the d***heads who are keeping this info to themselves get what they deserve?
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Old 11-06-2008, 07:26 PM   #225
Antaletriangle
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: U.K.
Posts: 3,380
Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeboy View Post
do any of you remember or know of robin hood? For those who dont, he basically fought the establishment stole there food and money and dished it out to the poor so they could survive. Isnt what gary did or tried to do a mere modern day version of this. Robin hood is considered a hero of the people. Sometimes we all have to do things that are against the rules to get what we feel in our hearts is right.instead of people judging him and saying he got what he deserved when will the d***heads who are keeping this info to themselves get what they deserve?
Along these lines?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OnkWvh1pvU8
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