Poor Gary Mckinnon

[Antaletriangle]

Everyone's entitiled to their opinions we all agree-this thread has gone nowhere fast from the initiation of this thread to these last posts everyone is still standing knee deep in water whilst the ferrry has been to the other shore and back and we're still here talking in circles.I'll just pop my head rined the corner now and again to see if everyone is still in the water.We all have so much to give to this site in lots of directions-let's get on with finding info. and post here if there are any further developments as i'm sure there will be then discuss those.

[murnut]

Originally Posted by Orion Morris

You must not understand that you will never be the same person once they have taken your life from you... Not very many people get good behavior... plus you will never be able to function in society again... nobody diserves this for a victimless crime.. Nobody!

The victim was the US military, and US tax payers.

Gary brought this on himself, and only has himself to blame for prolonging it.

If he did not want to go to jail, he should have not been hacking.

[Orion Morris]

Wow.. So when martial law breaks out and they throw you in a 6-8 cell because you broke one of the B.S. laws that they have in place I will say to you... good.. you diserve it.. you were asking for it... Its not the laws fault... or the governments fault... it is your fault for showing signs of resistance...

What is your problem? You have been fighting with people on this for days and days! You would think that you would find something else to pass your time by now.

Originally Posted by murnut

The victim was the US military, and US tax payers.

Gary brought this on himself, and only has himself to blame for prolonging it.

If he did not want to go to jail, he should have not been hacking.

[murnut]

Originally Posted by Orion Morris

Wow.. So when martial law breaks out and they throw you in a 6-8 cell because you broke one of the B.S. laws that they have in place I will say to you... good.. you diserve it.. you were asking for it... Its not the laws fault... or the governments fault... it is your fault for showing signs of resistance...

What is your problem? You have been fighting with people on this for days and days! You would think that you would find something else to pass your time by now.

When people reply to my posts...I respond...I am not fighting...merely explaining my opinion to those having difficulty understanding it.

There are plenty of BS laws I disagree with...but the way to fix them is not hacking.

I oppose UFO vigilantism.

What is so hard to understand about that?

[Orion Morris]

That is not hard to understand...
What is hard to understand is how you are beating around the fact that you are unempitetic with Gary's situation....
We could all be locked up for a BS law here very soon!

Originally Posted by murnut

When people reply to my posts...I respond...I am not fighting...merely explaining my opinion to those having difficulty understanding it.

There are plenty of BS laws I disagree with...but the way to fix them is not hacking.

I oppose UFO vigilantism.

What is so hard to understand about that?

[murnut]

Originally Posted by Orion Morris

That is not hard to understand...
What is hard to understand is how you are beating around the fact that you are unempitetic with Gary's situation....
We could all be locked up for a BS law here very soon!

No empathy?




I sympathize with the situation that Gary has put himself in.

I have cautioned the ufo community not to use Gary as a pawn, but they have anyway.

But I draw the line on the lies that Gary, or Gary's supporter, are pushing.

This type of disinfo hurts the credibility of the UFO community.

The defacto out come of this gives the public the impression that the ufo community considers itself above the law.

No wonder, a vast majority of folks outside ufo community consider it a joke.

90% plus of the citizens of the world consider themselves law abiding.

Do you?


Can the ufo community force disclosure based on lies?

Can the ufo community force disclosure on blackmail?

Can the ufo community force disclosure based on theft?

Why pray tell would anyone outside of our community ever believe "disclosure" based on the above.

They won't...so why justify it?

Gary turned down 3years...18mos in the US, 18 mos in the UK?

Whose fault is that? Mine?

At what point is Gary responsible for his own actions?

If you ask me, and I know you haven't....he has gotten terrible legal advice.

This all would have been over years ago had he plead out.

The deal offered was very fair

[murnut]

Originally Posted by Orion Morris

That is not hard to understand...
What is hard to understand is how you are beating around the fact that you are unempitetic with Gary's situation....
We could all be locked up for a BS law here very soon!

Oh...and by the way....Obama won't let any BS laws happen

[NancyV]

Originally Posted by martian31v

my dear nancy,
you are entirely correct about my emotions and the negative affect they played in my communications with you and murnut. one of these days i will learn that lesson. i do apologize to you both for my tone and language.

from one perspective your views on "shoulds" is appealing and admirable. not an easy perspective to live from, especially in this world. but from another perspective "shoulds" or "intentions" are the means toward creating a new realty, and a necessary aspect of our free will. if i am not satisfied with my/our reality, then i am inherently required to attempt a change. "should", then becomes the responsibility of those who seek change.

the fact that man has consistently perpetrated injustices, should not lead to the conclusion that those injustices are inevitable. we live in a reality that is constantly changing, and we have the ability to participate in that process of change. therefor, "should" is a necessary aspect of our reality. "should" is the impetus of creation.

the assumption that all humans are created equal is a necessary assumption in the process of defining human rights. if we do not start with that fundamental assumption, then it is possible for any group or individual to claim superiority over another. the fact that some humans already claim superiority over others does not negate the necessity of this assumption. if all souls are created equal and all human body's maintain a soul, then all human body's are created equal. this is true despite our actions to the contrary.

if that premise holds and you agree to the 2nd premise (sequestering of information leads to inequity of knowlege leading to inequity of power), then a conclusion of an inherent right to pursue existential information seems to naturally follow.

if interested in continuing debate, i promise to remain unattached and void of childish insults. i do apologize. thank you for calling me out, martian

You're very cute, Martian. I'm still laughing!

I have found it much easier to live in this world after I stopped worrying about "shoulds" so much. Yes, I agree that intentions are powerful and are useful in creating a new reality. But how is it free will for you if my intentions for you are that you comply with my version of reality? You may seek to change the reality of others but if they don't accept your version of what they should do or how they should be, so what? We can put out our desires for the reality we envision, but if others reject it, perhaps that is absolutely not in alignment with the lessons they are to learn at this time in their journey. If there is resistance, then it's often a good time to back off. We will not all agree about everything and that's the way it is.

I cannot make an absolute statement that all violence is bad or unjust since man has perpetrated "injustices" since time immemorial. I'm not even sure about the absolute meaning of "unjust", since it might be completely JUST that someone perpetrates violence upon another for some reason that I'm not aware of. Perhaps it might be a karmic thing, or a pre-arranged scenario agreed upon before incarnating, or many other things I can't even imagine. It seems to be part of the human equation, how can that be inherently wrong in all cases without knowing the bigger picture?

Just because I don't like people treating others cruelly does not mean that I can or should eradicate cruelty from the world, nor is it my place to tell everyone else that they "SHOULD" be peaceful and loving when I really don't know the ultimate purpose of incarnation on this earth plane. It may very well be a part of YOUR purpose that you will tell everyone else what they should do, according to your present knowledge and level of awareness, but I find that the older I get, the fewer absolute convictions I have when it comes to telling others how they should live their lives (except for my children!).

In my opinion this is a solo trip, a singular challenge. The less time I spend worrying about changing everyone else the more time I can spend thinking about what I do, what pleases me, how I should act and what I think is right for me to do and say. It's also not of concern to me what others think about me. Basically it's not any of my business what your opinion of me is. Life is so much simpler this way. I rarely get offended because I don't care what you or anyone else thinks. Sure, I care a huge amount about this whole trip here on the earthplane and the entire great journey, but I have one belief that I allow myself, and that is... that it's all working out exactly the way it's supposed to. Why?? Because it IS.

Since your basic premise is fatally flawed - that all humans are created equal - your subsequent logic is flawed. We each have built in effects from and limitations of knowledge, awareness, physical health, motivations, genetics, karmic baggage, gender, race, geographical location, parents, etc. We live in a duality. On the one hand we are unlimited and all loving. On the other hand we have many limitations, inequalities, and we are capable of hate and great violence. Until we merge our "lower self" with our "higher self" we are affected by both, and we may be affected by both even after leaving this incarnation. It depends on where your particular soul/mind resides. Yes, we are all equal as we approach the Source, but as separated parts of the Source we are not equally endowed.

I do agree that "sequestering of information leads to inequity of knowledge and inequity of power". So what? That's the way it is here. Everyone does it! It is not merely the purview of "evil government". If we were meant to know everything we would have telepathic abilities much more developed than we do. But we can and do easily fool each other and lie to each other on a daily basis in every aspect of our lives.

As far as "rights", I still maintain that the only rights you have are the ones you take for yourself and keep for yourself. We do not have the power to grant "rights" to others. I do not agree that "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." It sounds good, I LIKE it, but I don't believe it. It was agreed upon by men who signed it, after some pretty heated debates, but even many of them didn't believe we were created equal, certainly they didn't all believe that Blacks or Indians were equal. Thomas Jefferson himself stated that he believed blacks were inherently inferior to whites, and he also included Indians in that opinion.

I like my husband's response when asked if he's a racist. He says "I'm not a racist, I hate everyone equally!" His point being that you can find just as many vile specimens of human beings in any race and either gender. I'm sure the humor of that will escape those who think one must always be "loving".

The government has just as much "right" to hide information as you have a "right" to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We don't LIKE that the government keeps so many secrets and the government doesn't like it when people like Gary McKinnon try to hack into those secrets. Since Gary is not as strong as his government in the UK, they may force him to go to the US and accept the punishment for his actions. The US government is more powerful than Gary, so he can either fight, flee, or accept his fate for doing something ill advised with possibly harsh consequences.

What I really don't get is why the vast majority of members who have posted in this thread don't understand that Murnut is correct. He is not hostile or argumentative, although he is continuing to respond. Mainly it is his detractors who don't like anyone disagreeing with them because they believe THEY are inherently RIGHT! He has presented a logical summation of the circumstances and of Gary's choices. On the other hand we have a bunch of zealots who seem to need an iconic figure to help them in their fight for truth, justice and against the evil government. One of the funniest things I see is that Gary doesn't make a very good icon. He's a 42 year old stoner who was stupid enough to hack into the US Military with a dial up dinosaur of a computer and leave threats!!! If he didn't know about any potential consequences then he's also an ignoramus. It's not like he's a Ghandi or a Martin Luther King!

But each will have their own causes and passions. I think the whole thing is very entertaining.

Nancy

[murnut]

Thank-you Nancy

[Orion Morris]

Nancy and murnut... I am do not think that I am right... I am not sure if what Gary did even helps our situation...

What I am saying is that him breaking the "law" in the manner that he did doesnt diserve incarceration... I feel bad for him... Jail or prison is no place for anybody...

[martian31v]

thank you nancy. much better to be "very cute" than an arsss.

if your intentions for me are for me to comply with you, then the responsibility or freedom of will lies with me to intend and create something different or accept your intentions. in the same sense, if TPTB intend for our compliance to their end, then it is up to the free will of the individual to intend for something else or comply. i don't seek to change the reality of others. i seek to change my own reality that i share willingly with others. if others don't accept my intentions, then they are free to put forth their own intention. i think that is the co-creative process at work. i agree with your views on resistance, but not as an absolute. in terms of this discussion (freedom of information), i think that humanity is the natural resistance to TPTB intentions of secrecy. they are the ones who will inevitably yield to the increasing resistance of the people's inherent need to know.

i agree completely with your points on the difficulties of telling "everyone else" what they "should" do. i'm a minimalist at heart and i think we can apply a minimalist approach to our notions and expectations of what should or shouldn't be. BUT, if we are going to co-exist on this earth-plane, then we are forced to live by some rules and/or structure. i believe we are in the process of determining that structure, and everyone has a say. because of the vast differences in opinions of what "should" be, we should keep it simple.

from one perspective it is a "solo trip", but from another it is collaberative. we cannot escape the affect of our neighbor. if my neighbors dog poops on my lawn, then i am obligated to tell my neighbor what he "should" do with his dog. i also am not concerned with what others think. i am concerned with what others do, because those actions affect me. TPTB can think they are superior to me, but they cannot commit actions that oppress my will. if they do, then i will act out against them. and, i am just in opposing my oppressors, because my will is free.

the fact that we have differences, does not negate the fact that we are created equal. no matter if you're a materialist that believes we come from mindless energy, or a spiritualist that believes we are souls incarnate from a mindful source, we are inherently equal. if you believe everything including us comes from a mindful source and that source is ONE, then we are also ONE. therefor, we are created equal in the mind or structure of ONE. we are equal parts of the whole. no differences experienced in duality can negate this logic. the fact that we are currently experiencing separation from source does not negate our inherent equality. our inherent equality is not removed from us during separation, it is forgotten. how can our shared place in ONENESS be negated? only thru our collective ignorance. but ignorance of oneness, does not translate into loss of oneness. at our core we are one, and from that core principle we can devise a few basic "shoulds".

you seem to agree with premise 2. and your "that's the way it is", "everyone does it" defense is not going to work against it. i bet that defense doesn't work when your kids use it. the point is not about knowing everything. it is about everyone having equal access to the same information. the fact that our differences will limit some in their ability to interpret and utilize said information, is also not the point. the point is about an equal opportunity for all humans to access information to the best of their ability and in alignment with their free will.

our difference on "rights" is debated in premise 1. i still maintain that our "rights" naturally extend from our core essence. if rights were relegated to the ability of one to take and hold for itself, then we would be forced to accept the determined rights of TPTB. inside your logic it would follow that someone could declare it their right to take your house and family, and keep it for themself. we might not have the power to grant rights to others, but we do have the power to agree on rights that coincide with the whole. and this can be done if we agree on the fact of inherent oneness or equality. i realize this line of thinking is ripped from the declaration, but who, when, and where the logic comes from is not relevant to the argument itself.

do you really believe that the government has just as much right to hide information as you, your children, and the rest of us has a right to life???
Hobbs also tried to argue that might makes right. but history has shown us time and again that might, when forced on the light, only creates a consolidation of power, disalignment, and disturbance to the natural flow of equality and oneness. the survival of the fittest model of governance is antiquated. time for an upgrade. a model of governance based on the simple truth of oneness. no need for iconic figures. much need for simple logic and an agreed upon truth. IF we can agree that we are equals, then we should be able to agree on our shared freedom for information. i guess it is very entertaining.

[NancyV]

Well, Martian, it looks to me like if we got together and talked this over we would probably have a lot of fun arguing the fine points but would ultimately reach agreement with each other. Great post and aside from a few fine nit-picky points which might be largely semantics, I really can't fault you in your reasoning. You're a pretty smart guy (if you're a man) so let's have a hug and call it a tie, or a win/win!

Nancy

[NancyV]

Originally Posted by Orion Morris

Nancy and murnut... I am do not think that I am right... I am not sure if what Gary did even helps our situation...

What I am saying is that him breaking the "law" in the manner that he did doesnt diserve incarceration... I feel bad for him... Jail or prison is no place for anybody...

I don't think what Gary did helps our situation, Orion, nor did it help him or his family. It brought them a lot of grief and hassles. I also feel badly for him and his family. I wish he hadn't been so stupid as to have done what he did.

He probably does have mental problems (aspergers) in addition to being a stoner, or he would have thought more about the possible consequences. Maybe they will take that into account, but probably not. Since he turned down the semi-reasonable offers of a plea bargain and continued pushing it, they are probably more inclined than ever to make an example of him.

I hope it turns out well for him because I don't see that it will do much good to put him in prison. Hopefully he's at least smart enough to never do this again and he is already reaping the consequences of his actions.

Nancy

[martian31v]

Originally Posted by NancyV

Well, Martian, it looks to me like if we got together and talked this over we would probably have a lot of fun arguing the fine points but would ultimately reach agreement with each other. Great post and aside from a few fine nit-picky points which might be largely semantics, I really can't fault you in your reasoning. You're a pretty smart guy (if you're a man) so let's have a hug and call it a tie, or a win/win!

Nancy

i love win/win experiences. thank you again for correcting my attitude.

[leeboy]

Originally Posted by murnut

1)All humans are equal under the law.

You and Gary want to choose what laws you choose to obey.

Flaw #1


2) Knowledge is power if obtained lawfully, that is if it does not infringe the rights of others.

Knowledge obtained via poisoned fruit is worthless.

The road to disclosure cannot be built on lies.

Flaw #2

YES your right knowledge IS power
Why do you think the powers that be are the only ones with knowledge. You seem to be arguing for arguments sake and straying away from the main topic of this thread.
You keep slating the ufo community yet you purport to be a believer, doesnt that make you a member of said community or are you more equal than the rest of us in your ability to disseminate fact from fiction?
DO you honestly think that we have no rights to information which may very well change our perception of each other, the earth, and the universe? I personally feel that given the fact that the only people with ths information are the military then we should certainly:
A) be worried over their ultimate intent with this knowledge
B) question why they feel they are the only ones capable of understanding and dealing with this information
or are we the ones asking questions and wanting answers ( THE UFO COMMUNITY) lesser people to them that keep us in the dark for their own benifits.

[leeboy]

posted by THEGHOST "He is facing an exceptionally extreme and illegal set of circumstances. People are committing treason to get him over to the States! Gary will be lucky if the plane he gets sent over on doesn't crash into the Atlantic."


I fear you may be closer to the truth than you may realise. The ptb are above any law and are answerable to no-one.

[murnut]

Originally Posted by leeboy

YES your right knowledge IS power
Why do you think the powers that be are the only ones with knowledge. You seem to be arguing for arguments sake and straying away from the main topic of this thread.
You keep slating the ufo community yet you purport to be a believer, doesnt that make you a member of said community or are you more equal than the rest of us in your ability to disseminate fact from fiction?
DO you honestly think that we have no rights to information which may very well change our perception of each other, the earth, and the universe? I personally feel that given the fact that the only people with ths information are the military then we should certainly:
A) be worried over their ultimate intent with this knowledge
B) question why they feel they are the only ones capable of understanding and dealing with this information
or are we the ones asking questions and wanting answers ( THE UFO COMMUNITY) lesser people to them that keep us in the dark for their own benifits.

I merely responded to what was asked of me.

Certainly there much that is being kept from us...I don't like it.

But I have to ask myself, in the absence of any proof, what it is I actually believe is occurring.

Yes there is a phenomena that occurs that is unexplained to this point.

Yes, govts have secret projects, secret flying devices etc.

There is no right to know what these are, unfortunately.

Govts may have recovered crashed vehicles.

But beyond that, what is really known?

I would venture a guess that the govt knows far less about the phenomena than most here would believe.

If the govt "came clean", many here will not believe that the govt knows very little about what has occurred.

They cannot answer even the most basic questions, beyond a few.

It is a lose-lose situation for them.

Personally, I don't need disclosure.

I think that it fair to say, whatever is disclosed won't be the truth.

I don't need the govt to disclose to me that God exists, so what's the point?

Disclosure happens on a personal level....at least it did for me.

The govt is not responsible for what I choose to believe or not.

It is fine to ask questions....but it is up to the individual to find answers for themselves.

As far as how this relates to Gary...... in my opinion, he saw nothing.

Why would they crash a plane, when he could have been silenced before you ever heard his name?

The biggest secrets are not hooked up to the internet...never have been.

Gary uses the ufo community for sympathy, and the ufo community uses Gary as a push towards disclosure.

Too bad neither side is being truthful about its intentions.

[TheGhost]

"The govt is not responsible for what I choose to believe or not. "

If the government is suppressing information and/or putting out disinformation, they ARE responsible for shaping your beliefs, to an extent.

[TheGhost]

"Gary...... in my opinion, he saw nothing."

What Gary was likely to have seen would probably be the military versions / military applications of ET technology, rather than the raw ET info/ships itself.

His claim of a seeing a list of 'non-terrestrial officers' and downloading a picture of a UFO are completely believable if you consider that the military are not going to just sit on advanced technology - they are going to use it.

The picture of the UFO that he claims to have seen was not necessarily an ET one but could easily be a military one (built using ET technology).

You may be correct in your assessment, murnut, that info on aliens is not going to be deliberately accessible via the internet. However, with decades for the technology to profliferate throughout the military and very lax computer security I think it is possible for 1 or 2 files to have slipped through the net to become accessible via the web.

[leeboy]

Originally Posted by murnut

I merely responded to what was asked of me.

Certainly there much that is being kept from us...I don't like it.

But I have to ask myself, in the absence of any proof, what it is I actually believe is occurring.

Yes there is a phenomena that occurs that is unexplained to this point.

Yes, govts have secret projects, secret flying devices etc.

There is no right to know what these are, unfortunately.

Govts may have recovered crashed vehicles.

But beyond that, what is really known?

I would venture a guess that the govt knows far less about the phenomena than most here would believe.

If the govt "came clean", many here will not believe that the govt knows very little about what has occurred.

They cannot answer even the most basic questions, beyond a few.

It is a lose-lose situation for them.

Personally, I don't need disclosure.

I think that it fair to say, whatever is disclosed won't be the truth.

I don't need the govt to disclose to me that God exists, so what's the point?

Disclosure happens on a personal level....at least it did for me.

The govt is not responsible for what I choose to believe or not.

It is fine to ask questions....but it is up to the individual to find answers for themselves.

As far as how this relates to Gary...... in my opinion, he saw nothing.

Why would they crash a plane, when he could have been silenced before you ever heard his name?

The biggest secrets are not hooked up to the internet...never have been.

Gary uses the ufo community for sympathy, and the ufo community uses Gary as a push towards disclosure.

Too bad neither side is being truthful about its intentions.

your right the governments may know little but thats because they are the "front men", so to speak and like us have very little knowledge themselves. The basics of compartmentalisation. Or to quote a film "plausible denyability"
The biggest secrets will be hooked up to the internet because in its early days the internet was designed for military use only, and paper files are a very bulky item to store and easily destroyed, whereas computer files can, and are, backed up many many times.
Im afraid that at present the masses are not yet ready for any disclosure wether it be planned by the ptb or others "off world". Simply because of religion, any advanced race that wanted to create a following on this planet could very easily perform the miracles that jesus did in the bible and hey presto the religion that only existed upto that point in a book is suddenly in front of your eyes and something tangible that you can touch and see. Imagine what this would do to the vatican and the power that they hold over the masses (just one example) The flip side of this is a race that could do these miraculuos acts would be looked upon as deities and they may NOT want that, given that we should be expanding our knowledge of self and the universe, pretty hard to do when your on your knees praying.

[murnut]

Originally Posted by TheGhost

"The govt is not responsible for what I choose to believe or not. "

If the government is suppressing information and/or putting out disinformation, they ARE responsible for shaping your beliefs, to an extent.

What the govt does or says doesn't affect my beliefs at all.

It should not affect yours either

[murnut]

Originally Posted by TheGhost

"Gary...... in my opinion, he saw nothing."

What Gary was likely to have seen would probably be the military versions / military applications of ET technology, rather than the raw ET info/ships itself.

His claim of a seeing a list of 'non-terrestrial officers' and downloading a picture of a UFO are completely believable if you consider that the military are not going to just sit on advanced technology - they are going to use it.

The picture of the UFO that he claims to have seen was not necessarily an ET one but could easily be a military one (built using ET technology).

You may be correct in your assessment, murnut, that info on aliens is not going to be deliberately accessible via the internet. However, with decades for the technology to profliferate throughout the military and very lax computer security I think it is possible for 1 or 2 files to have slipped through the net to become accessible via the web.

I doubt it.

Anything at all "found" is because the govt wants it "found"

My opinion is (sorry for repeating myself) govts know far less than what the ufo community is willing to believe

[murnut]

Originally Posted by leeboy

your right the governments may know little but thats because they are the "front men", so to speak and like us have very little knowledge themselves. The basics of compartmentalisation. Or to quote a film "plausible denyability"
The biggest secrets will be hooked up to the internet because in its early days the internet was designed for military use only, and paper files are a very bulky item to store and easily destroyed, whereas computer files can, and are, backed up many many times.
Im afraid that at present the masses are not yet ready for any disclosure wether it be planned by the ptb or others "off world". Simply because of religion, any advanced race that wanted to create a following on this planet could very easily perform the miracles that jesus did in the bible and hey presto the religion that only existed upto that point in a book is suddenly in front of your eyes and something tangible that you can touch and see. Imagine what this would do to the vatican and the power that they hold over the masses (just one example) The flip side of this is a race that could do these miraculuos acts would be looked upon as deities and they may NOT want that, given that we should be expanding our knowledge of self and the universe, pretty hard to do when your on your knees praying.

Many will bow down before these beings.

That's the problem

But back to the topic.....the cover up has work for so long and so well, that I doubt there is really much to it.

The govt knows far too little, than what you or most would believe.

If there was something tangible, it would have leaked with proof.

It hasn't.

IMO


This is why I say Gary saw nothing....this and the fact that Gary's name is public.

I mean if Gary really did see what he claims, we would have never ever even heard of him.

The PtB can't be so smart and so stupid at the same time.

[King Lear]

WOW Murnut you have already 150 posts!
I bet they are only in this thread

Why are you such a Gary-stalker? Did he hack your bank account?


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[Subsonik]

Murnut, I have to wonder why you feel so incredibly strongly towards something that is so obovioulsy wrong. There is no way that Gary did $5000 of so called damage to all those computers he used and you're acting like it somehow affects you personally. What side are you on here?

These people use the dirtiest tactics in the book and out of the book, including hacking, assassination, abduction and for them it is somehow legal - even though their hackers are malicious and steal secret info that really does has to do with other country's national security. They are going to take down Gary as hard as they possibly can and that is the reason they want him in the US. Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire. I completely sympethise with the guy - he did what was right in his heart.

And something you said made me laugh - 90% of citizens believe they're within the law - what are you, a politician? Did you just pluck the figure from the air?