David Wilcock.

[Frank Samuel]

David has a strong positive outlook on life, he is a magnet of positive energy.
Barrack does not fit into the regular good ol boy club profile. I believe color, creed, religion, sexual gender should not influence the decision of choosing a candidate to become president. But listen to what some good ol boys utter
in the news. They will not vote for a BLACK MAN. Irregardless of his affiliations,this my friend is important to stop this ignorant mentality and raise this nation to another level. We "americans" have to grow up a little, spiritually America is at an all time low. So throw rocks at me but I support the black guy, 400 yrs. of slavery is enough . So be it that all politicians are the same and cannot fufill 99.9 % of the promises they make, we all know that, but I place my votes with the democrats they are a lot more fun, Republicans draw on the religious fevor to easily manipulate our children to war, death and regret.By the way today is the 911 memorial I am a native New Yorker and I know how I felt that day especially watching my friends perished and not being able to do a dam thing about it.

[Mike_Jetson]

Im pleased DW touched on the Obama stuff again as its been stressing me out somewhat lately. Lets face facts, one of them is going to get the nod, at least if we know we cannot get someone else in and we know we cant change the system this time around then we should really decide who is the least painful option. I say Obama.

And Im pleased somebody brought up the JFK issue. Even if you assume Obama doesnt know enough, that doesnt mean he wont be found and taught the truths by a white knight on the inside. Ive avoided voicing my preference to other people but I have to admit that listing to DW again about this has made me think its worth a shot, if at least to make some effort in reducing chances of McCain getting in.

And I can see some peoples point who have issues with DW. He did cover way more ground than I was expecting, a bit like the david Icke by election speech but Wilcock is only giving us what he currently believes. Our beliefs change all the time. These whistleblowers and insiders statements shouldnt be treat as written in stone. Give them a break, they are telling us what they believe, they are not trying to convert us to anything, just what they know and believe.

I for one am very thankful for such postive messages. And yes, someone said he may have over simplified things with the Rocks Vs Roths scenario and obviously its more complicated but when you talk to some friends about things and you tell them 9/11 was an inside job and they ask you who exactly did it....you cant just give them a list of names....only an overall picture of belief backed up with certain facts and/or experiences and research. Stay positive

[arcora]

I enjoyed the interview very much.

I am a bit uncomfortable with politics being discussed both in the recording and on this board.

I know we're in an election year and politics seems to be all pervasive. The people on this board ought to know better than anyone else that Presidential politics don't matter. The agenda is the agenda and it will continue no matter who is elected.

No President is going to overthrow the very system they have worked so hard to master. Focusing attention on a party or candidate just feeds their negative energy and detracts from the good that can occur here.

Can we consider a policy to leave politics at the door in this forum? There are so many places outide of here where politics can be discussed ad nauseum - do we really need it here too?

[Frank Samuel]

Sorry if what I posted sounded political what I meant is that we all have views, dreams, visions and my visions included Obama. Get out of politics and think about tolerance , unity of spirit, love compassion. I began my journey doing service in the community, the value of helping others helps our spirit to grow, you cannot fake that. What you gain far outweights the petty problems
of everyday life. Our views collide for love cannot be convey with words along
and with so much negative views about dooms day seldom do we trust each other. Love, live and have fun. Lots of kisses and laughter from my 1 1/2 yr. ol to all of you . I hope to instill a positive view, if at times I do not succeed
my heart is still reaching out to yours.

David Wilcock has aided me tremendously.

i thank David Again.

His lectures have been quite informative and interesting, aside from one
video where he channels the "Ra energies".

As much as I'm fascinated by the Egyptian achievements and culture greatly influenced by Ra, I'm still weary of any culture or doctrine condoning slavery, be it ancient Egypt, Greece, or Rome.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bill Ryan]

Hi, All:

Reading this with interest, and picking up a few odds and ends:

its too bad they havent interviewed deagle and david icke

1) We intend to. We're in touch with Bill Deagle and will be interviewing David Icke in a couple of weeks.

I'm really hoping Bill and Kerry will interview Joseph P. Ferrell.

2) We're also in touch with Joseph Farrell and hold his work in high regard. No plans for an interview at the moment.

3) This interview with David was about much more than Obama.

4) No-one's mentioned the wonderful outtake at the very end. Don't miss it!

[stefaan]

Indeed, the outtake was funny.
You must have more of the same, from other interviews.
Maybe you can make a blooper video or audio record.
It's nice to hear Kerry laughing.
It's nice to hear anyone laughing.

[Mike_Jetson]

Originally Posted by arcora

I enjoyed the interview very much.

I am a bit uncomfortable with politics being discussed both in the recording and on this board.

I know we're in an election year and politics seems to be all pervasive. The people on this board ought to know better than anyone else that Presidential politics don't matter. The agenda is the agenda and it will continue no matter who is elected.

No President is going to overthrow the very system they have worked so hard to master. Focusing attention on a party or candidate just feeds their negative energy and detracts from the good that can occur here.

Can we consider a policy to leave politics at the door in this forum? There are so many places outide of here where politics can be discussed ad nauseum - do we really need it here too?

I fully understand where youre coming from but if enough people focus on positive changes within politics theres a good chance we can influence this. Hitler went against the PTB, McCain has clearly done the same with Palin. Even though we know the chances are extremely high that all politicians are under control we should never ever ever give up hope on politics. Again and again we can use JFK as an example. Its much more complicated than saying all politicians are under control of a certain group as we know there are many groups vying for power. I strongly oppose avoiding any subject here but I agree that I/we shouldnt really try to endorse anybody in particular. This is made harder when the people who we research and look to to learn from give us snippets of hope in the political arena.

We KNOW that their power is crumbling, we know the truth is rising, we know the postiveness of the people around the world is working and forcing the hands of the PTB, therefore I plead with you not to want us to restrict our political thoughts. Sure id rather Ron Paul was in the running but im trying to be a realist as well as fully optimistic

[jopublic]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David Wilcock's interview disappointed me in several ways; firstly the references to the fact he watches CNN and Fux news, hmmm.
Secondly the constant reminders about his own personal life cycle periods and his dreams that are not of any real relevance to anyone except to him.
Thirdly and perhaps most annoyingly I was expecting some talk of the long awaited Convergence the movie, it was teasingly hinted at right at the end of the audio but was not expanded upon, (the audio ends).
Also it would have been nice to learn of his thoughts concerning the LHC experiments at CERN and how they might tie-in with looking glass/jumprooms/other dimensional travel etc.
I was confused at his definitions of visiting/resident aliens especially after Kerry challenged him about that aswell.
All in all not much to shout about concerning the crop circles either with respect to his numerology calculations for the 16th august. (maybe four windmills mean a cat 4 hurricane/Tsunami somewhere?)
If he is correct and the Russians do indeed have posession of top secret U.S. plans etc, it does somehow beg the question 'they weren't left on purpose as a diversionary tactic?' or 'how would the russians (a) declare such plans convincingly, and (b) who will believe them (Russians) and have the power to act upon them,(plans) with any measurable outcome?
Maybe Ben Fulford's boys could get involved...
I find the Rothschild/Rockerfeller split a little implausable too...
I did find David's (Wilcock) earlier interviews on Project Camelot extremely insightful, well presented and educational. I'm frustrated that he has not thus far, (considering his extensive knowledge concerning the pineal gland and DNA manipulation), offered any possible solutions to these phenomena, i.e. if DNA is able to be manipulated by external and internal forces, why isn't there a procedure to reboot it or indeed repair it to it's original and intended manifestation. Is this what 2012 convergence is really about?
In any case I do still consider David Wilcock to be an incredible human being and I admire his knowledge and passion, a lot of questions still remain though.
I sincerely hope that he continues unhindered in his quest for more of the answers and can share his findings with the rest of us as always.

Originally Posted by Bill Ryan

4) No-one's mentioned the wonderful outtake at the very end. Don't miss it!

I didn't miss it.
BUT, you cut out the 'Wardrobe Malfunction' though....haha!
Just kidding around...

[tonyob1]

great interview with david offers a glimmer of hope...i am hoping for a coo data of the neo cons

but 1 thing what documents do we think the russians have got hold of....surly they would not leave such documents behind when they fled...lets hope evidence of who was behing 9/11

tony

[atom.Man]

First, i have a great deal of respect for David and all the other researchers. These people are such incredible sources of knowledge, folks like Icke, Wilcox, Mutwa, Casbolt, Maars, Maxwell and of course Kerry and Bill and so many others. Hat's off!

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer by a long shot, but here's my take on the 9-sep-08 interview:

I think David places to much importance on what appears to me as pseudo-math, if you will. For instance, he takes a number, divides it by another and then ties some sort of significance to the result. He also mentioned the "bible code" which, to my knowledge (i did some research on this), is a complete fallacy. Mathematicians have done the same thing with Moby Dick and produced similar results. Here's one example.

Interestingly, David seems to convey that there really is a great significance regarding the outcome of the upcoming US presidential [s]election and the effect it will have on our future. Knowing a bit about governments within governments (secret government), secret societies, bankers, the UN, intel communities, bankers, etc., etc., etc., i wonder how accurate he is -- in other words, what influence do elected officials have on issues that are really important when they're not the ones in control anyway? From my point of view, i see little or no significance as all of the mainstream candidates are tied to the same organizations/corporations/societies that have influenced government for many years. Even if Ron Paul were elected, there is little he could do without the support of Congress, the courts (which are insanely corrupt) and many others.

Truth be told, i think Obama (or "O'drama", as i call him) may be the least of the evils, but i'm tired of having to choose the least evil. I will not vote for him and can see no truth in his claims of "change", especially when i look at his voting record and association with the UN, as well as considering what he has said regarding military force in Iran, Afghanistan and the ME in general. The Larry Sinclair thing is also an interesting tidbit to me because, if his claims are accurate, and i tend to think they are, this says a lot about Obama's integrity, or lack thereof.

As far as David's thinking that Obama chose Biden to keep his enemies close at hand, i hope he's right, but i see 2 possibilities that seem more likely; 1) Biden was picked for him by the neo-cons and 2) Obama is no different than the rest of the war mongers. I'll go with the latter and hope that i am dead wrong. McCain's VP "choice" is equally interesting.

At any rate, we will be stuck, yet again, with the same people and the same mess. Just because someone doesn't get elected (such as Hillery (read: Hitlery)) doesn't necessarily mean they are less influential. One only needs to poke at the Carlyle Group to see why.

ET's: Man, i have a lot of trouble wrapping my head around this stuff. I can accept that human development was the result of ET influence (including blacks, though David seems to feel they may be the only indignant race on the planet). ET influence makes sense to me for a variety of reasons, but one especially: we simply don't "fit" -- we're the only animal on the planet that is hell bent on destroying everything and are totally out of tune with nature. However, when folks mention the different ET races, ET's in DUMB's, etc., this is where i begin to choke. I'm not saying i refuse to believe, just that it's difficult (haven't done enough homework in this area yet). Credo Mutwa is a fascinating man to listen to regarding this stuff though. If you haven't seen this interview conducted by David Icke, YOU MUST SEE IT!

As for the bulk of David's testimony however, i tend to agree with him on many points because i've come across many other people and news stories which corroborate what David says. The worst part of the whole thing is how useless i feel in so far as effecting real change, but, then again, maybe we ARE having a dramatic effect because of the ability to publish and share information vie the internet, thus exposing these criminals.

I hope David's cautious optimism is well placed. I would rather we get to pick and choose how we want to organize and meet, rather than being forced to network at a FEMA camp

[stefaan]

David tells us the Rotschilds are in trouble. That's hard to believe. The power of the Rotschilds is so big, they never get in trouble. On the outside maybe they play a part designed to make us believe they're in trouble.
David also tells us the Rotschilds and the Rockefellers are opponents in a battle. Again this is hard to believe. Where does this information come from?

[stefaan]

Look what I find in some minutes:

At the Bilderberg Conference on June 6 to 9 of this year(1991), in Baden-Baden, Germany, David Rockefeller (a Rothschild) made the following statement,

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time Magazine, and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost 40 years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world, if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years.
But the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The super-national sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practised in past centuries."

This quot comes out of The Rotschilds Timeline

What battle can there be between the Rotschilds and the Rockefellers?

[Mike_Jetson]

To believe that the powerful families all get on and have the same goal is ridiculous to believe so I never understand when people simply say 'Illuminati' or 'NWO' or whatever and then proceed to put everyone they think is bad into the same basket with the same views and goals. The fact Rockefellers and Rothschilds have a diff family name should help you to slightly consider they have opposing views and have certain members of their group that share the same policies and goals and some that despise each other. Jeeez...

[stefaan]

Originally Posted by Mike_Jetson

The fact Rockefellers and Rothschilds have a diff family name should...

They have intermarried in the beginning of the 20th century, so they are family. Still, the Rockefellers always have been marionettes. The Rotschilds were the boss...

And ok. Even in the best families you can have troubles, quarrels.


Don't Jeeez... people, it's not nice.

[truthseeker]

Hi Guys,

I would first like to thank Kerry and Bill making this forum possible. So far it is has been a resounding success. I suspect that it has surpassed even their expectations.

This is my first post on this forum. I have decided to post it on both the Michael St. Clair and David Wilcock threads because the first part at least concerns both of these extremely intuitive and spiritual men. Be warned it is going to be a rather long, but important, comment. It may also provoke some conflict and discussion, though really it is only bringing to the fore the differences between the St. Clair and Wilcock frameworks. I have also written my own take on the Mayan Long Count Calendar end date and galactic alignment in this post. I hope it will help to dispel some of the frequently repeated errors made by many researchers writing on this subject.

I have listened to all of Michael and David’s interviews on Project Camelot and have been impressed by both of them. I am a regular visitor to David’s website and am probably a little more familiar with his work than with Michael’s. However, I have also been to Michael’s site and read two of his books (‘Zen of the Stars’ and ‘Foreseen’). I also have another commonality with Michael, as I have been a keen student of astrology for the past 20 years or so. I have found his astrological forecasts very inspiring and can see that he is clearly a master of this fascinating symbolic system. Michael’s threads on this new forum have been amongst my favourites, particularly those on astrology and the Wingmakers.

However, I am slightly troubled by what I am beginning to see as a polarisation between the views of David and Michael. I sense that quite a lot of folk here are either becoming ‘Wilcockian’ or ‘St. Clairian’ in their spiritual and philosophical perspectives of past, present and future. Maybe this, to some degree reflects, the up and coming opposition between Uranus and Saturn that Michael has been expounding upon. I would love to hear both Michael and David in dialogue with each other, as their views seem pretty irreconcilable in at least two areas. Firstly, in terms of their favoured political candidates in the up and coming US elections, and secondly, but more significantly, in terms of the imminence of humanity’s ascension into a higher density of being. I do not doubt the integrity of either of these men. Both believe that their intuitive and spiritual sources can be relied upon. However, these separate sources appear to be totally at odds with each other. Despite their commitment to certain sources, frameworks and philosophy’s, I have some significant doubts and questions on both counts.

Let us deal first with the lesser problem of their polar opposite political forecasts on the up and coming US elections. Like so many others here I personally I have severe doubts about both presidential candidates, together with their running mates and backers. It seems to me, that like virtually every other world leader in recent history, they completely buy into the system that appears to be destroying both us and our planet. Having said that, if by some miracle any one of the candidates or their running mates can truly transcend and transform the current system, then bring them on! For Michael, McCain and Palin are favoured, particularly the latter. Michael’s arguments for Palin seem to be rooted in his understanding of her birth chart with a strong Aquarian stellium of planets. He feels she is a free spirit with a mind of her own. He believes that Obama is completely bought by the PTB and that this is reinforced by his running mate, Biden, and his chief backer, Brzezinski, both of whom are well and truly part of the corporate elite. I have not studied any of these political figures well enough to really know the truth about them. However, I find his confidence in the Fundamentalist Christian, Palin, who probably awaits an imminent rapture and judgement day, somewhat surprising. Unless, she undergoes a major transformation in her thinking, then I severely doubt she is going to be good for either America or the world. David, on the other hand is really pushing for Obama. His dreams seem to have given him a clear message that despite appearances, Obama as president will be good news for the USA and the world. I find this almost as hard to believe as Michael’s faith in Palin. David suggests that Obama is keeping his enemies (i.e. the likes of Biden and Brzezinski) close to him so that he can turn the tables on mainstream politics when the time is right. I am a fraid I need a lot of convincing on that one. I suppose he too could undergo a major transformation, but from where I am standing (which is admitedly on the otherside of the Atlantic, in the UK), this does not seem very likely. So I am not holding my breath for either Palin or Obama, though I would love to be wrong about either one or both of them.

I would be less bothered by all this were Michael and David not so convinced about what they were saying. But they both seem so sure of themselves. They can’t both be right can they? Maybe they can? Maybe we will end up with a US leadership with them working together to transform the world? Not very likely me thinks!

Anyway, that’s the more minor polarity of thinking between these two incredibly intuitive men. Now onto the bigger and more important stuff regarding our spiritual destiny as both a species and a planetary civilization. The bigger issue for me is really their very different visions on the future for humanity and planet Earth.

David seems convinced, mainly from his ‘Law of One’ source (The ‘Ra’ material) that humanity is facing ascencion on or around the end of the Mayan Long Count calendar on 21st December 2012. Apparently, those of us that are 51% or more in ‘service to others’, as opposed to ‘service to self’ will ascend from a 3rd to 4th Density of being during that short time window. This is because the entire planet, according to David, will be ascending into 4th Density at that time. The rest of humanity, it seems, will either reincarnate on another 3rd Density planet elsewhere in the galaxy, or a relatively small number (mainly those within the current elite groups) will survive in undergound bases as 3rd Density beings. The latter will eventually evolve into the J-Rods (i.e. the Grey’s) who will one day come back to visit us from the distant future (see also the Dan Burish material). Generally, though it appears that it will be difficult, if not impossible for 3rd Density human beings to survive on the surface of the Earth. So, that is roughly David’s very soon to occur ascension scenario.
Just a side note here. Following David’s scenario, I have often wondered what will happen to all the plants and animals on Earth when it moves from 3rd to 4th Density? Will they ascend from 2nd (rocks and minerals are 1st Density and Plants and animals are 2nd Density in David’s system, as far as I understand) to 4th Density? Or will they join the 3rd Density humans and be reincarnated on another planet? Alternatively, in what way will plants and animals on a 4th Density Earth differ from there 3rd Density counterparts. I have not found any clear explanation of what will happen to the Earth’s wildlife in David’s writings. Maybe I am just missing something her?

Anyway, back to the difference between David and Michael’s spiritual framework. Michael takes a much slower and longer-term look at the future of humanity. He sees an ascension process that is gradual over the next couple of hundred years. For me, on a gut level, this seems the more realistic scenario. Of course I may well be wrong. Like anyone else I am biased to things continuing to some degree as they are, which at the moment is a slow, but speeding up, spiral downward. Out of the ashes of the current madness, I incline to the idea of us rising, like the Phoenix, into a new age for man, the planet and our relationship with higher beings. I guess I find it hard to see things changing as radically and quickly as David and the ‘Law of One’ material suggest. However, I do try to keep an open mind! I also like Michael’s use of astrology and the various planetary cycles to make sense of these changes. This, I believe, he combines with the information he regularly receives from his Nordic Being sources.

So which scenario is the correct one? Both can not be true, surely? That is unless we are looking at two different timelines?

I do not have the confidence that David has in the ‘Law of One’ material. I am suspicious of the motives and agenda of both channelled and contact entities at the best of times. David himself questions other channelled sources, but states that he has found the ‘Law of One’ material to be much more consistent with his own extensive research than any other. I have no doubt that he believes that to be true. I am equally suspicious of Michael’s Nordic Being sources. I am also equally sure that he believes what they tell him to be true. In both cases, how do we know these beings are telling us the truth? Intuition? Gut feeling? Some kind of higher rational knowing?

This brings me onto yet another source of greater knowledge, that Michael refers to frequently. In fact he has a whole thread on this forum relating to that material. I am of course refering to the Wingmakers material. I first heard of this from Michael when it was mentioned in his last interview with Bill and Kerry. I immediately sought out the site, read much of the material there and even bought the CD. I was initially very impressed. I loved the Ancient Arrow Project story and the related interviews between Dr. Neruda and Sarah. Also the music and art is pretty incredible. However, I did later become a little concerned about the way the story and interviews changed over time, as several people on the Wingmakers thread on this forum have already noted. The apparent endorsement of a New World Order and Globalization slightly bothered me. However, I can see a difference between the ‘New World Order’ type of globalization that conspiracy theorists are so rightly concerned about, with its poulation reduction and rule by force and control, as opposed to the one world or one universe concept where we are all connected in a peaceful and co-operative way. I was also a little disapointed at Michael’s response to the website (http://www.wanttoknow.info/wingmaker...gmakerschanges) suggested by Lightbeing. I am guessing Michael was tired and probably more than a little overwhelmed by the quantity of response there has been to his ideas on this forum. He is only human, like the rest of us, after all. However, I think refering to the author as both ‘mentally ill’ and ‘anal’ was rather unfair and unreasonable. I read the same comments and letters at that website and felt that most of the authors questions to Mark Hempel and ‘James’ were reasonable. I do accept that he may have gone a little far in is his implied accusation that ‘James’ (the author of the Wingmaker material) is a liar. However, I thought his questions and doubt were perfectly reasonable. If I never questioned or doubted, I would not be on this forum today. I would still be stuck in the old school Methodist Christian mind set in which I was brought up. It is my questioning of, and doubt about particular belief systems, ideologies and philosophies that has allowed me to be where I am today. I was not entirely convinced by ‘James’ response either. However, that will not stop me exploring the Wingmaker material further.

Heh, perhaps I am ‘mentally ill’ as well! I am a mental health nurse after all! Seriously though Michael, we do need to be careful of the labels we lay on others. Within mainsrtream Psychiatry, virtually everyone one on this forum would be labelled ‘mentally ill’ and suffering from a whole variety of delusions and auditory and visual hallucinations. Of course, I do not buy into mainstream Psychiatry, but we must be careful that we do not stigmatize others in the same way that our mainstream society does.

Hope you don’t mind me picking you up on that one Michael?

Another thing I noticed on the Wingmaker site was embedded in James’ Q & A Session 3. It is of rather minor concern in the greater picture of things I guess, but relevant to both Michael and myself, because it concerns astrology. Here is the quote: -

Question 58 – Will the next material give reference to the "Harmonic Concordance" that is being talked about now? This relates to a special astrological geometric pattern, which will be formed on November 8, 2003, at 8:12 AM EST. The primary feature is a Grand Sextile and at the time of total lunar eclipse. Does astrology play any part in the WingMakers philosophy or cosmology?

Answer 58 – The teachings of Lyricus do not involve astrology. The reason is simple: astrology is subjective to time and place, and because of this subjectivity it is impossible to embed fundamental truth that is sustainable and relevant across multiple places and times. This does not suggest that heavenly bodies do not impact on humans. They most certainly do, in more ways than astrology recognizes. The Harmonic Concordance – like all astronomical events that seem orderly (non-random) – is indicative of how the grander scale of the universe can imprint on the consciousness of a species and an individual. The universe is a powerful catalyst of the inborn instinct to ascend in consciousness, but our species has fallen to the gaze of a ten-foot experience called television, and seldom, if ever, searches the night sky.

On re-reading this now, I must admit, it makes more sense to me and does not devalue astrology as a local phenomenon, as I initially seem to remember thinking. In fact James quite rightly implies that the local positions of the Sun, Moon and planets in our solar system are going to be of little relevance in the bigger space-time universe from which the Lyricus teachings are derived. However, Michael, I would be interested to hear your view on this. I am less concerned about the specific question on Harmonic Concordance (a dubious concept relating to the 1987 Harmonic Convergence created by Jose’ Arguelles and his Dreamspell version of the Mayan Calendar), and more interested in James’ reply about astrology in general.

Also there are quite a lot of other questions and answers in this 3rd Q & A Session with James that might well lead quite a few who visit here to question the agenda of James and the Wingmaker material. I would reccomend that everybody reads this entire web page (http://www.wingmakers.com/answersfromjames.html) before completely accepting everything James tells us. I too need to read it again, as it is now sometime since I read this material. I do remember it left me feeling unsure about the goals and direction of the Wingmaker material.

Michael, sorry to question something you regard as so very important, beautiful, true and inspiring. However, that is what we are here for, I believe; to find some answers about what is really going on and who we can really trust? Nothing is too good or inspired to be questioned and debated, from my point of view. Lets not have any ‘Sacred Cows’ here. My own doubts about the material, and those of others, may well be unfounded. I keep an open mind until something confirms things definitely one way or the other for me. I have similar reservations about some other alleged contact material that has been explored on this forum. This includes the Andromeda contacts experienced by Alex Collier and the Pleiadian/Plejaryian contacts of Billy Meier. Some of the material presented by both these contactees seems to me to be fairly dubious. Certainly none of Collier’s Andromeda predictions mentioned in his 1996/7 video appear to have manifested. As for Meier, he seems to believe that all other ET contactees are either liars or mentally ill. I do not doubt for a minute that both Collier and Meier really have experienced a significant contact with something or someone and that they believe what they have been told is the truth. I feel similarily about Michael’s Nordic contacts and David’s channellings. However, can any of these sources be truly trusted?

Now I want to make a rather extended comment about the the Mayan Long Count Calendar and the apparently related galactic allignment, that many have mentioned on this forum. I would also apreciate Michael’s comments (and David’s, if he is around) on my own suggestions and studies here. I am in the process of writing an increasingly long article (I started my explorations in 2000/2001 – at this rate it will be a book by the time I have finished) on the precessional cycle and the so-called astrological ages.

I have recently been reading loads of stuff, on and off the Internet, regarding this now increasingly discussed calendar date. There is so much out there now, that it is really hard to discern the ‘forest for the trees’ or the ‘wheat from the chaff’, and boy, there is a hell of a lot of ‘chaff’ circulating on the ether. It is enough to confuse anybody who has been exploring this subject material for some years, let alone those looking at it all for the first time. There are multiple errors that are repeated over and over by so-called researchers that have not checked their data and sources thoroughly, or in many cases at all. Even some of the best researchers seem to make some basic mistakes. So lets try and sort out fact from fiction and fantasy.

I shall refer to various web pages here rather than attempt to define and explain this complex subject matter in too much detail, which would take a book or two! John Major Jenkins website (http://alignment2012.com/) is my primary source for this. His website and books (‘Maya Cosmogenesis 2012’ and ‘Galactic Alignment’) are the best referenced and most accurate sources that I am aware of. I strongly recommend a close study of Jenkins website as a definitive introduction to all the Maya Calendars (yes there are more than one). I also recommend Geoff Stray’s website (http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/) and book (‘Beyond 2012’) for perusal. He covers anything and everything (the Maya and beyond) relating to 2012, from the sublime to the ridiculous.

Firstly, it is important to remember that the current ‘Age’ is either the 4th or 5th in a series, depending upon which Mesoamerican tradition (e.g. differing Mayan and Aztec groups) is being followed. Thus, the implication here is that the current Mayan Long Count Calendar is the 4th or 5th in a succession of Long Count Calendars that are each of the same length in years and days (i.e. 5125 years, 133 days). So the end of the current Long Count Calendar does not necessarily mean the end of the world, as some would have us believe. The end date thus represents the end of an old ‘Age’ (the current one) and the beginning of a ‘New’ age (the next one).

When translated into our own Calendar (the ‘New Style Gregorian’ as opposed to ‘Old Style Julian’), the current Mayan Long Count Calendar commenced on 11th August 3114 BCE and is due to end on the 21st December 2012 CE (see http://alignment2012.com/fap3.html for a discussion on the history of the correlation issue). In fact, it appears that this calendar was created by a Pre-classic Mayan civilization from Izapa in south-west Mexico, probably somewhere around 100 BCE (for details about the monuments in Izapa that support this see http://www.alignment2012.com/Izapa.html).

Various erroneous beginning and end dates have been given by various authors and writers over the years. For example, sometimes you may see a beginning date for August 3113 rather than 3114 BCE. This error appears to be rooted in writers not realizing that there was never a year zero between BCE and CE (AD) dates. Basically, the year 1 BCE was followed by the year 1 CE. By adding a year zero date you get the erroneous 3113 BCE date. Other writers have got this wrong in the other direction, coming up with a 2011 end date instead of 2012. However, I do not believe this is the explanation for Carl Calleman’s 2011 end date, which I will explore in a minute.

Other smaller errors in terms of the actual beginning and end date (e.g. whether the end date is the 21st or 23rd December) can at least in part be explained by the two most dominant correlation theories (see again http://alignment2012.com/fap3.html). The now most commonly accepted beginning and end dates are 11th August 3114 BCE and 21st December 2012 CE respectively. The latter is the winter solstice date of that year in the northern hemisphere. The other correlation hypothesis suggests beginning and end dates of 13th August 3114 BCE and 23rd December 2012 CE (2 days after the solstice) respectively. The latter hypothesis is, of course, two days removed from the former. This may explain some of the differing dates quoted for the Mayan Calendar. However, again, it does not explain Carl Johan Calleman’s date of 28th October 2011 CE.

As far as I can understand, Calleman’s end date has no basis within Mayan Calendrics. It appears to be a creation of Calleman himself, which others such as Ian Lungold and Barbara Hand Clow (a well known astrologer and proponent of the New Age) have taken to heart. I believe it is based on Calleman’s own explorations of the past to seek out key historical events that he can equate with his own version of the calendar. This erroneous end date is the primary reason why I find Calleman’s version of the calendar highly dubious. For reference and dialogue between Calleman and Major Jenkins, view the following web pages at Jenkins’ website: -

http://alignment2012.com/Calleman-debate.html,
http://alignment2012.com/Exchange-in-2000.html
http://alignment2012.com/MayanCalendarBasics.htm
http://alignment2012.com/eldersand2012-exchange.html,
http://alignment2012.com/debate2001.html

Jenkins states that “the idea of conceiving the 13 baktuns of the Long count Great Cycle in terms of seven days and six nights is Calleman’s own, and it serves Calleman as a template for modeling history. It is these same ‘seven days and six nights’ applied to his ‘Nine Underworlds of Creation’ that Calleman uses to correlate his calendar end date. According to Calleman we are currently in the 8th of these 9 underworlds, the ‘Galactic Underworld’, which is 12.8 years long. Each underworld is 20 times shorter in historical time than its predecessor, beginning with the ‘Cellular Underworld’ of 16.4 billion years and ending with the ‘Universal Underworld’ of 260 days (11th February – 28th October 2011, according to Calleman). All end on his proposed end date of 28th October 2011.

Calleman is also very dismissive of astronomical and astrological correlations with the Long Count Calendar and does not buy into Jenkins’ idea that the 2012 end date corresponds roughly with the current galactic alignment between the December Solstice Point and Galactic Equator. Calleman argues that the Long Count Calendar is purely prophetic and has no astronomical or astrological relevance at all. He makes this very clear in his written debate with Jenkins (see above web page references). Calleman dismisses astrology as an entirely materialistic subject and seems to fail to grasp the spiritual symbolism that astrology can often reflect. In the debates he never seems to answer Jenkins questions and queries, but keeps coming back to a very fixed and negative response to Jenkins astronomical/astrological perspective, which is also very spiritual. It really is worth a read to get a sense of how frustrating this so called debate was for Jenkins. I am very surprised to see Calleman’s version of the Long Count calendar endorsed by renowned astrologer, Barbara Hand Clow. I truly wonder if she has ever read the above debate between Jenkins and Calleman. Michael, I was also surprised to see your own endorsement of Calleman’s work in this forum. I strongly suggest you read the debate material just mentioned. Calleman may well speak with much spiritual truth. However, I strongly feel is version of the Mayan calendar is in error.

Though I find Calleman’s version of the long count calendar rather dubious, I do find the general concept of accelerating time toward a singularity or novelty point in the era around 2012 quite an interesting and attractive one. It certainly reflects my own subjective feeling of time speeding up as we approach that time. I am sure his system could actually be applied to the more commonly accepted 2012 end date. Maybe someone should give it a try as I am sure there is much within Calleman’s model which does have great value? Maybe it would work better if applied to the correct end date?

This concept of accelerating time is not a new idea unique to Calleman, though his chosen end point and the speed and momentum of the acceleration do seem to be his own creation. Terrence and Dennis McKenna suggested something similar back in the 1970’s in their book “The Invisible Landscape: Mind, Hallucinations and the I Ching”. This was based upon the McKenna brothers shared hallucinogenic experience in the Amazon jungle in 1971. Their hypothesis is known as ‘Timewave Zero’ or ‘Novelty Theory’, which they base on the 64 Hexagrams of the King Wen version of the I Ching. I can not pretend that I understand the math behind this theory, as mathematics has never been an easy subject for me (however, see http://www.hermetic.ch/frt/math_twz.htm if you are really interested), as lots of graphs, statistics and numbers tend to befuddle my mind. The theory allegedly synchronizes the 64 Hexagram I Ching with the 384 day and 13 month lunar year (i.e. thirteen 29.53 solilunar cycles, as measured from one new moon to the next), the precessional cycle and 11.1 years, which is the average length of each sun spot cycle.

However, the most important fact relating to the Mckenna brothers theory, to my mind, is that they independently came up with a 2012 end date to the timewave. This was well over a decade before the Mayan End Date became widely known, largely through the publication of “The Mayan Factor” by Jose Arguelles’ in 1987 (famous for his idea of ‘Harmonic Convergence’ in 1987). The McKenna brothers initially came up with a zero point of 17th November 2012. However, in a later edition of their book in the 1990’s, when they had discovered the Mayan End Date, they adjusted this to 21st December 2012 (actually 22nd December first and later still the 21st December, when it was clarified that that was the Mayan End Date). This adjustment might perhaps raise some suspicions about the McKenna model, though, as far as I know, they were open and up front about this change.

The earlier zero date of 17th November 2012 was the end result of the fine tuning of the timewave to a chosen historical event that the McKenna brothers chose as of the greatest novelty within the 20th Century. They chose 6th August 1945, when the first atomic bomb was released upon a human population, in Hiroshima, Japan. This was certainly an exceptional, not to mention both tragic and murderous, event. Indeed, perhaps it was the most significant event in the 20th Century. However, it all feels far too subjective to me to base a theory on this singular, though important, historical date. If you are interested see http://www.hermetic.ch/frt/zerodate.html for a well grounded and sober critique of the McKenna ‘Novelty Theory’ by Peter Meyer.

Whether this model of accelerating time is any more valid than Calleman’s or not, I really can not say. However, the use of hallucinogens by the McKenna brothers to receive their proposed pattern of accelerating time theory, is clearly Shamanic in orientation and may well reflect a similar process utilized by Shamans over 2000 years ago, when the Long Count Calendar is believed to have been first conceived by the pre-Classic Mayan people of Izapa, in current day Mexico, very close to the Guatemalan border.

There are still other accelerating time models that seem to focus, very broadly, upon the era of around 2012. I will not go into depth about these now, but they include the ‘Auric Time Scale’, written up in a paper authored by Sergey Smelyakov and Yuri Karpenko. The former is a Ukrainian Professor of mathematics with an interest in astrology. Geoff Stray critique’s this model in his book, “Beyond 2012” and also at his website (http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/). However, if closely examined the end point of that model should in fact terminate around 2037, rather than 2012.

A fourth expression of accelerating time is the ‘Logarithmic Time Scale’ proposed by astrologer A. T. Mann in the 1970’s and 1980’s. His ideas were rooted in the theories of Rodney Collin, who was a student of George Gurdjieff and P.D. Ouspensky. Initially Mann applied this idea to the individual life cycle (in his books “The Round Art” and “Life Time Astrology”), in relation to our subjective experience of life going faster and faster as we get older. He later adapted this to history (in his book “The Divine Plot”), his focal end point being the year 2000, as it was for so many before that year passed without any epochal life-transforming event. Maybe there is a lesson there for all of us, as we approach 2012? I have attempted, in the past, to apply this same model of logarithmic time to the 2012 end date. I have never completed those explorations, but did seem to get some interesting correlations.

However, to my mind, the truth is that which ever model and/or speed of time acceleration one chooses, whether Calleman’s, McKenna’s, Smelyakov’s, Mann’s or any other, one will inevitably discover significant historical events and prehistoric epochs that will support a given model. However, there will also be other significant events and epochs that will not. Does this invalidate all or any of those models? I know not. Maybe by creating and applying our consciousness to such models we make them real and manifest, especially if a critical mass of people apply themselves to such a model. Maybe this explains why prediction and prophecy within and outside mainstream religion can often seem to work?

So if enough of us believe something positive or negative will occur in 2012, then maybe such will happen? If so, it might be a good idea for us to focus on positive, rather than the negative, manifestations of our near future. There is, in fact, growing scientific support for the idea that mass positive or negative attention can effect the physical and manifest world in which we live, both on a personal and a collective level.

So, now we have looked at the Mayan Long Count calendar and the 2012 end date, to complete this rather extensive post, I want to look at the related phenomenon of galactic alignment. Among much else, John Major Jenkins suggests that the 1998 galactic equator-solstice alignment is the same phenomenon to that which the civilizations of Mesoamerica alluded to when they calculated the end of the current age to occur in 2012. Jenkins explores much within Mesoamerican mythology, astronomy and calendrics to support his thesis. The 14-year difference between 1998 and 2012 is considered negligible within the greater expanses of time covered by these ages and alignments.

So, is this a reasonable suggestion?

The current alignment of the December Solstice Point and the Galactic Equator is an unquestionable fact. The bigger question for each of us, is whether or not such an alignment is either meaningful or important? To the materialistic society in which we live, which is based on a reductionist science that tells us there is no meaning in the world and everything happens by chance or luck, this alignment will have no relevance whatsoever. However, for those of us who believe we do live in a meaningful universe full of signs, symbols and synchronicities, such a rare alignment will indeed seem to be significant. This will be the case even if we feel unable to fathom exactly how and in what way it is relevant to our lives and the world in which we live. I am sure you have already realized that I reside in the latter camp of a meaningful universe. I suspect most who read and comment on this forum are also in that camp. So, assuming it is meaningful, lets just define exactly what this alignment is, from our perspective here on Earth.

The December Solstice Point (DSP) is a fixed point in the sky along the Ecliptic. The latter is the great celestial circle around which our Sun appears to transit each year. Of course in truth it is the Earth that is orbiting the Sun. More roughly, from our view on Earth, the moon and the planets also appear to transit this same great celestial circle. The ecliptic thus represents the plane of our solar system. The DSP corresponds to the Sun’s location each December 21st or 22nd (the presence of leap years in our calendrical system varies the day). The Galactic Equator (GE) is another example, like the ecliptic, of a great celestial circle, this time derived from the location of the Milky Way as it appears in the sky from Earth. The Milky Way Galaxy, of which our own solar system is a tiny part, appears in our sky as a broadly linear phenomenon along which many stars and constellations appear to conglomerate. Its appearance, on a clear night, away from the artificial lights of civilization, can be likened to a ‘milky cloud’ of subdued light stretching across the sky.

The GE is, in fact, an imaginary circle that marks the centre plane of the Milky Way. It crosses the ecliptic, at an angle of approximately 61°, at two opposing points along the zodiacal belt. The first of these, as viewed from Earth, lies in the direction of the Galactic Centre (GC) between the constellations of Scorpio and Sagittarius. It currently aligns with the December Solstice Point (DSP). The second crossing of these to great celestial circles lies in the opposite direction, toward the Galactic Ante-centre (GA) and is located between the constellations of Taurus and Gemini. It currently aligns with the June Solstice Point (JSP). It is the first crossing point that is most important here, largely because of the location of the GC, which lies along the GE just 5° (or thereabouts) below the ecliptic circle.

As stated earlier, this alignment was exact in 1998. However, owing to the fact that the solar disc is almost exactly ½° wide, it will eclipse the DSP on the December Solstice of every year from 1980 until 2016, a period of 36 years (see http://alignment2012.com/truezone.htm). It is also worth remembering that the Sun also eclipses the JSP at the June Solstice over the same time period. Really this is just the other end of the same alignment. In both cases it can safely be said that the alignment is exact throughout the 36 year period, which of course includes Mayan Long Count end date of 21st December 2012 CE.

I find it more than a little irritating that many writers on the Mayan End date imply that this alignment only occurs on the December Solstice of 2012. This is clearly not the case and gives a false impression of that particular December Solstice being more important than any other. If we want to find the most significant December Solstice for the period, then that of 1998, would be the most obvious choice. However, I feel this is all missing the point of the alignment as a whole, which is clearly evident from 1980 to 2016. So folks, if a transformation is going to occur, we should be in the midst of it right now. I think most of you reading this now would agree that we certainly are in the midst of some pretty mind blowing global changes at this time in history.

The other quibble I have with many writers on the galactic alignment and 2012, is their claim that the December Solstice Sun is both conjunct and eclipsing the Galactic Centre (GC) on 21st December 2012. Firstly, the GC-DSP conjunction will not actually occur until around 2225 CE, over two centuries from now. Secondly, the solar disc will never eclipse the GC, as it is 5° below the ecliptic right between the sting of the Scorpion (Scorpio) and the arrow point of the Archer (Sagittarius). Remember, the ecliptic is the apparent path of the Sun, which is just ½° in diameter, so it could never reach a point 5° away from that great celestial circle. This GC-DSP alignment in over 200 years will be, I believe, as significant as the present one. Indeed, I think the whole period between these two alignments is going to be significant for both the human species and the entire planet upon which we live. It remains to be seen as to whether we can actually survive that period of time at all. Interestingly, Michael, that timescale of over 200 years, seems to tie in well with your own forecast for humanity.

Anyway, back to the current GE-DSP alignment. It really is a unique alignment within the known history of humanity. The last time it occurred was one full precessional cycle back in our past, somewhere between 24,000 and 26,000 years ago. However, between then and now three comparable alignments have occurred at 6,000 to 6,500 year intervals. The last of these involved an alignment between the September Equinox Point (SEP) and the GC end of the GE somewhere between 4500 and 4000 BCE. This seems to tie in nicely with the rise of the Sumerian civilization in current day Iraq. It is interesting to note so much activity in that same region during the current alignment. Before this, somewhere between 11,000 and 10,000 BCE it was the JSP that was aligning with the GC end of the GE (i.e. the opposite to the present alignment). Many believe that it was around that time that the legendary civilizations of Atlantis and Lemuria came to an end as a result of some kind of cataclysm. The two alignments before that are well beyond our current historical record, so I shall say little of them here. The GC end of the GE aligned with the March Equinox Point (MEP) somewhere between 17,500 and 16,000 BCE. It’s last alignment with the DSP occurred between 24,000 and 22,000 BCE. One can speculate endlessly about those time periods, but I will not go there at this time.

So, what of the current alignment period? Is it the end of the world as we know it? Is it the end of humanity as a species? Do we evolve into a new species? What is happening and what will have happened by end of 2016 when the current galactic alignment comes to an end? Indeed is that the end of the alignment?

When astrologers work with fixed stars in astrology, they generally allow 1° of orb for a meaningful alignment. The Galactic Equator Points and the Galactic Centre (GC) traverse the sky, in relation to the solstices and equinoxes, at a very slow speed that approximately corresponds with the precessional rate. This is precisely the same for the fixed stars. A 1° orb for the current GE-Solstice alignment would give us an alignment period from 1926 to 2070 CE, thus most of both the 20th and 21st Centuries. The same orb for the GC alignment of 2225 CE, would begin and end in 2153 and 2297 CE respectively. That would actually leave only 83 years between the end of the GE and the beginning of the GC alignments. Such long periods of time for alignments are very difficult for us conceive of. No single historical event can mark such lengthy conjunctions, so we would have to look at the whole historical period for trends that will presumably come to a head around the time when the alignment is exact (i.e. the 1980 – 2016 era with the current alignment).

Finally, relating to all the above, how relevant is all of this to the evolution of a more spiritual consciousness involving us, the Earth and all its other occupants (animals’ plants, etc.) plus any other beings (physical or ethereal) that exist in this part of our galaxy? It is the potential for a collective spiritual transformation that seems to me to be the most important opportunity for all of us during this 36 year window of time as represented by the current GE-DSP alignment. Only 8 years now remain until the end of 2016, when this short window of time could be closed to us for hundreds (maybe the GC alignment in 200 years or so will be another window of opportunity), if not thousands of years. Our window of opportunity might go beyond 2016, if my suggestion of a 1° orb for the alignment is allowed, but can we afford to take that chance and not act before then? If we succeed in some kind of transformation of consciousness, then we may be able to leap a head to another level of being. If we fail, then we may well go the way of Giant Sloth’s, Sabre-toothed cats, Dodo’s and Passenger Pigeons.

That will do for now as I have probably bored you all to tears by now.

Best Wishes

Andrew (Truthseeker)

[odiseo]

Have a few questions regarding what David said in the interview. He said that both sides have problem when planning what ever they want because they are not using the time devices. What was the main reason for stop using it.
Where the time devices, (looking glass) , (orion cubes) and the ancients ones they dismantle it because :

1- Of the negative problem that supposedly they create doing the planet transition from 3 to 4d??

2- Because they can no longer see the future in this transition period??

3 Or both of them??

[Argante]

Dear truthseeker, Andrew...

What an outstanding, intelligent and postive post that was. I really enjoyed reading it, and some parts I had to read two or three times to make sure I understood. I read many, many posts here... and every so often one is just so incredible that I find I must compliment the author.

Thank you so much truthseeker for an outstanding contribution to Avalon.

Argante

[milk and honey]

I thought it was a great post by truthseeker too. I wish it's 3 distinct parts could be represented in separate threads, otherwise each topic may not get the attention it deserves. 1) The St Clair / Wilcock contrast. 2) The Wingmakers controversy and 3) The Mayan calender and associated research -- although i appreciated that they could begin in one place.

Contrasting the St Clair and Wilcock frameworks is very important for several reasons. Firstly as TSeeker noted, notwithstanding their predictions of a positive outcome for humanity, Michael and David's explanations are worlds apart regarding contemporary events and even the metaphysics of personal and planetary change ahead.

Second, only one of them can be correct about the outcome of the US election.

As far as their respective credibility is concerned, i don't think it matters which person is correct about that. Both David and Michael insist on their infallibility in these things but frankly i doubt that claim. While one of them is poised to recieve a lesson in humility come 'Nov 08' they both could probably use one IMO.

Either way, whichever person turns out to be correct regarding the outcome of the US election we can't automatically assume that that person's source (for correct predictions) is of a positive spiritual orientation or that therefore it establishes all their other claims on the rock of truth. That is, we should not suppose that the ability to predict future events automatically qualifies Michael and David -- or their source -- as being trustworthy and truthful regarding their overall intent and agenda.

This is not to cast aspersions on either man but rather to point out an ancient principle of truth... ie, The "siddhis" (the powers) are not necessarily any indication of the spiritual attainment of messenger or source. Black magicians have psychic powers which mimic the spiritual powers of the true Adepts and they have develop[ed that mimickery to a high (black) art. That is, they most often pose (in physical or astral dimensions) as our spiritual brothers and sisters in order to decieve us with lies and close facsimiles of truth which they disguise within a palette of actual truth.

For me, this highlights an under-emphasised aspect of the whole 'ET / UFO' phenomena. While much is made of the 'good ETs' vs 'bad ETs' vying for our planet, not much interest is centred on imposter 'ETs' -- pretending friendship -- whether they're physical or hyper-dimensional... Except of course those commentators who start and end their comments with... "95% of it is rubbish" yet offer very little analysis. To share the details of one's analysis is to expose one's own discernment, intuition and critical thinking skills but this is something that well motivated teachers and seekers are unafraid of.

In a place like this, an in depth interrogation of the various sources and claims is needed so that all can participate in an intelligent conversation and then come to our own conclusions because i for one am seeing that "95% of it" is indeed rubbish.

Not to over emphasise TSeekers example too much but it's not enough to follow someone's opinion who has only offered labels in reply to pertinent questions (about the veracity of 'the wingmakers on this occasion) and for that reason alone we should investigate the claims of those who've been labelled.

I've heard talk of a staged 'ET' attack by the terrestrial power elite but what about a charm offensive by hyper- dimensional beings with a friendly smile? ... And the transmission of predictions, a dodgy cosmology and the promise of high tech global solutions?

I agree there should be no sacred cows.

[milk and honey]

I thought it was a great post by truthseeker too. I wish it's 3 distinct parts could be represented in separate threads, otherwise each topic may not get the attention it deserves. 1) The St Clair / Wilcock contrast. 2) The Wingmakers controversy and 3) The Mayan calender and associated research -- although i appreciated that they could begin in one place.

Contrasting the St Clair and Wilcock frameworks is very important for several reasons. Firstly as TSeeker noted, notwithstanding their predictions of a positive outcome for humanity, Michael and David's explanations are worlds apart regarding contemporary events and even the metaphysics of personal and planetary change ahead.

Second, only one of them can be correct about the outcome of the US election.

As far as their respective credibility is concerned, i don't think it matters which person is correct about that. Both David and Michael insist on their infallibility in these things but frankly i doubt that claim. While one of them is poised to recieve a lesson in humility come 'Nov 08' they both could probably use one IMO.

Either way, whichever person turns out to be correct regarding the outcome of the US election we can't automatically assume that that person's source (for correct predictions) is of a positive spiritual orientation or that therefore it establishes all their other claims on the rock of truth. That is, we should not suppose that the ability to predict future events automatically qualifies Michael and David -- or their source -- as being trustworthy and truthful regarding their overall intent and agenda.

This is not to cast aspersions on either man but rather to point out an ancient principle of truth... ie, The "siddhis" (the powers) are not necessarily any indication of the spiritual attainment of messenger or source. Black magicians have psychic powers which mimic the spiritual powers of the true Adepts and they have develop[ed that mimickery to a high (black) art. That is, they most often pose (in physical or astral dimensions) as our spiritual brothers and sisters in order to decieve us with lies and close facsimiles of truth which they disguise within a palette of actual truth.

For me, this highlights an under-emphasised aspect of the whole 'ET / UFO' phenomena. While much is made of the 'good ETs' vs 'bad ETs' vying for our planet, not much interest is centred on imposter 'ETs' -- pretending friendship -- whether they're physical or hyper-dimensional... Except of course those commentators who start and end their comments with... "95% of it is rubbish" yet offer very little analysis. To share the details of one's analysis is to expose one's own discernment, intuition and critical thinking skills but this is something that well motivated teachers and seekers are unafraid of.

In a place like this, an in depth interrogation of the various sources and claims is needed so that all can participate in an intelligent conversation and then come to our own conclusions because i for one am seeing that "95% of it" is indeed rubbish.

Not to over emphasise TSeekers example too much but it's not enough to follow someone's opinion who has only offered labels in reply to pertinent questions (about the veracity of 'the wingmakers on this occasion) and for that reason alone we should investigate the claims of those who've been labelled.

I've heard talk of a staged 'ET' attack by the terrestrial power elite but what about a charm offensive by hyper- dimensional beings with a friendly smile? ... And the transmission of predictions, a dodgy cosmology and the promise of high tech global solutions?

I agree there should be no sacred cows.

[stefaan]

Originally Posted by milk and honey

Second, only one of them can be correct about the outcome of the US election.

Both can be wrong too. I don't know if it was one of the wistleblowers here (Benjamin Fulford?), or somewhere else, but I heard of a scenario were Bush stays in power for a month and then FEMA takes over, or something like that, after martial law has been declared (do I spell it right?)
Then both Davids and Michaels view won't match reality.
Then we have now 3 scenario's for the elections only.
Anyone has yet another scenario?

McCain dies, and Palin takes over? Obama get's shot, is taken to hospital and what's his name takes over? The black whole from CERN we didn't see, still eat's out the earth from the inside, without anyone knows before it's too late. A meteor impact? This one we also didn't see coming. Sh**t.

[Frank Samuel]

Hey if I could know 100% what is going to happen tomorrow I will played the Lottery and give out the winning numbers to everyone. Maybe we could end world hunger and invite Bill and Kerry to a big Global party!!! For me the most important thing is to remain positive, continue to soak in the opinions of others but figure things out on my own. Kerry and Bill I feel are down to Earth and looking at the historical value of the US elections is to help our chidren grow pass the prejudice mentality of Black and White. Think about it how many black Presidents or Prime Miniters are there. Will UK choose a Black prime minister, will France choose one, Australia???. You get my point, irregardless of what happens we as Light Seekers must help to liberate and abolish ignorance, help humanity to WAKE UP. Will the world end if any of these people win? the answer is: The world will end one day but not today how is that for a future prediction. Anybody have the lottery numbers? lets have a PARTY !!!!! Love and peace to All

[Mike_Jetson]

Good read truthseeker. Look forward to more deep analysis of 'stuff'