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Old 11-16-2008, 12:09 AM   #1
Patchjacket
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Question Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

This is an open question to the community regarding something that I just don't get. I am curious about how you came to the conclusion that it is going to be or will be an every-man-for-himself situation very soon.

What triggered your belief that you must run from civilization and/or hoard food, and/or arm yourself? Who is the enemy? Are there any good-guys?

Was is it something someone said? Your intuition? Is it the people you associate with?

You see, I don't feel that way and just wondered what knowledge you have. And, where did you get the information that extreme action needs to be taken.

As Ever
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Old 11-16-2008, 12:48 AM   #2
alyscat
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

Interesting that you use the term hoard. It's an emotion laden, somewhat judgmental, term, negative in its context, and usually used by debunkers to put a negative spin on what they're debunking.

I personally prefer the word food storage. My grandparents did it, farmers have done it for generations, current day LDS members do it, and in my opinion, any sane and sensible person will have a certain amount of supplies stored (which they rotate), since we are now living in a JIT world, and grocery stores have about - oh, 3 days worth of supplies on their shelves. Ask the people in New Orleans, after Katrina, whether they would have liked to have additional food and water stored, other than what was in their house/water pipes the day the storm hit...

There are natural "disasters" every year - hurricanes, earthquakes, major storms, etc. One can be prepared, or one can be a burden on society - waiting for a government who is also not prepared (saw that in both Andrew and Katrina) to come and "save" them.

Running? No one that I know is running (although I obviously don't know everyone) - however there are two theories of geologic change. One is rather like the theory of evolution - things happen slowly, etc. The other is catastrophic - where change can happen suddenly in catastropic events. I subscribe to the latter, since there is evidence it has occurred, and there seems to be a lot of it happening now - earthquakes have increased, tornados have increased, etc. Therefore, I will be prepared. Have a couple of years of food, etc.

Evidence? Well, if you want just straight non-metaphysical evidence, look at the caldera that suddenly exploded in South America earlier this year - what, a 1 in 10,000 year event??. I would be concerned (since your profile says you're from Oregon) about the series of earthquakes off the Oregon coast. Something is occurring there....

If you want to look at a more quasi-science side, the half past human guys with their predictive linguistics would fill the bill.

Metaphysically, there are numerous "predictions" from the Hopi Indians to Cayce to Ramtha -

However, my experience is that if you are a "debunker," then no matter what I say will be acceptable. However, it's my reality, and on the whole I'm willing to bet on my reality before I'm willing to bet on yours

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Old 11-16-2008, 02:59 AM   #3
Baggywrinkle
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchjacket View Post
This is an open question to the community regarding something that I just don't get. I am curious about how you came to the conclusion that it is going to be or will be an every-man-for-himself situation very soon.

What triggered your belief that you must run from civilization and/or hoard food, and/or arm yourself? Who is the enemy? Are there any good-guys?

Was is it something someone said? Your intuition? Is it the people you associate with?

You see, I don't feel that way and just wondered what knowledge you have. And, where did you get the information that extreme action needs to be taken.

As Ever
Patchjacket
Indeed. Before answering your question we must define terms. Preparing is something you do before the fact. This is a positive act and makes you part of the solution rather than part of the problem because you have put away supplies during times of plenty and you will be one less person in line needing aid. In fact, you might even be in a position to dispense aid to those in need. This is bad how? An example is Mennonite Disaster Services responding to people in need.

Hoarding, on the other hand is something done during a crisis and may well be associated with the gouging and price fixing that is seen with a disaster. An example is the gas station jacking the price up two dollars a gallon or the man with a pallet of generators making an unfair killing during a time of need.

What evidence you ask. The signs are very subtle indeed and have only within the last eight months or so spurred more and more of the sleeping masses to action. We had been reading and researching since 2004. We woke up to action in spring of 2006 with a report from a think tank calling for financial collapse and for gold to rise as high as 2000 per ounce. Other signs were the looming legislation chipping away at our freedoms. Patriot act I and II, the military commissions act removing habeas corpus, the real ID act, NAIS legislation which tracks our food sources, agenda 21 and the rewilding of America with the concurrent loss of property rights and the sequestering of populations into urban centers. The rise of communitarianism with the fabian socialist molding of society. The fact that most Americans believe that they live in a democracy rather than a democratic republic is proof of how dumbed down we have become. Most could not tell you the difference on a bet.

This soft peddled fascist shift runs concurrent with information calling for looming earth changes which were known about by the powers that be and down played in the media. The fact that this fascist shift seems to be occurring in all english speaking countries concurrently with the UK seeming to lead the way. We have been listening for several years now to J.R. Moore.
Moore is a former green beret and still has connections in the good old boys circle. Moore lives in central Missouri and is as conservative as they come. When he noted that certain zip codes in the Ozarks of Missouri were unusually populated with retired navy and the REASON they were there was because of secret briefings and maps related to earth changes. The Ozarks were identified in these briefings as a stable area. This information was verified by Moore to his satisfaction by three independent sources from the submarine fleet who did not know each other.

Along with this information came information that the Government was moving critical functions to higher ground. Go to google and plug in key words CIA and Denver. Moore also asserted that Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth was mostly factual, but the time line was a lie. His information asserted that the U.S. Government planned to have their move complete by January 2009. That 2012 was a hoax, it was actually more like summer 2009.

The lynch pin for us that something was up was the Svalbard Seed Bank. Known as the doomsday vault it was financed by the likes of Bill Gates, the Rockefellar foundation and Monsanto. What are they up to?

We started listening to Steve Shenk of the J Michael Stevens Group. Steve belongs to the LDS Church who wrote the book on preparedness. He has been in the long term storable food biz for over twenty years and he has NEVER seen conditions like they are today. He was predicting three years ago the rise in food prices today. He knows from his suppliers what availability will be like next year and two years from now. It was from Steve that we learned we are in the third year of a global famine. It was from Steve that we learned the existence and potential impact of the wheat blight UG99, and the loss of the pollinators - the honey bee.

We put up long term storable food two years ago now. Since then we have watched the price of a fifty pound bag of hard white winter wheat rise from nine dollars to twenty five dollars. We have watched food banks pop up in our local neighborhood. Our new habits allow us to go once a month to the grovery. Even buying in bulk as we do we have noticed our bill has doubled. Three days ago we dropped over five hundred dollars, but we are buying the same stuff. It will last us a long long time because we think in terms of #10 cans and fifty pound bags. Buying the way we used to; in small quantities once a week, what we brought home would have easily topped a thousand dollars.

There is more going on here than survival. Please understand that. It is a change of attitude and a change of lifestyle. The LDS Church calls it the law of provident living. James Wesley Rawles calls it the deep larder. I call it a return to the ethic of our grand parents and our great grand parents. We could close our gate for the rest of the winter never coming out and not miss very much.
We wouldn't be cold, and we wouldn't be hungry. That is peace of mind my friend. Two months ago I purchased one hundred pounds of green coffee beans, a sixteen month supply. Life's little pleasures,ehh? One of my rituals now is roasting a weeks worth of fresh colombian supremo on the kerosene stove in the summer kitchen. Usually done by lamp light, it connects me with my ancestors. Where we live taught us some of this. We endured the great Seattle power outage. We were without power for seven days. We did well, but now we would do better and could go longer. I'm writing this by the light of a petromax CP150 pressurized lantern. We have kerosene heat and a beautiful kosmos kerosene
lamp hanging over the dinner table. We are almost immune to another outage. We can pump water by hand when the gasoline runs out for the generator. That leaves refrigeration. We are prepared to eat or can everything in cold storage. Welcome back to 1880. Life isn't bad at all. Yeah, I'd miss the computer. But we have the good book to keep us company. It isn't about surviving. It is about living well on very little no matter what life throws at you.

Last edited by Baggywrinkle; 11-16-2008 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 11-16-2008, 03:19 AM   #4
Jack
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

Excelent post baggywrinkle.
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Old 11-16-2008, 03:44 AM   #5
Patchjacket
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

Thank you for your responses.
If I may clarify my question, the use of the term "hoard" was deliberate. I was referring to people who, without careful deliberation go and buy all of anything they can based on a headline in the paper or one speech by a charismatic speaker.

I know about "putting food by" and come from a long line of pioneer stock. I helped Mom can fruit and vegetables (even pickled eggs) as a child. My parents grew up as part of the "hungry" poor during the depression. Mom remembers at age 8 climbing a tree to watch the bank drive off what was left of the family's dairy herd - the only way they had to make a living.

I also know of the necessity of having food and water put by for local disasters. My husband is a Red Cross Disaster Volunteer who is sent to distribute food to homes and shelters in times of hurricanes, tornadoes and floods. I've always got a eye on the pantry as to what staples are needed should we get stranded up on our hill. (note: I'm a city dweller with a steep and long driveway- impassable when it snows).

The reason for the post was to get a feeling of whether this "movement" if I can call it that for this instance, was largely emotional and knee jerkish or if it was thought out and methodical. And, if it was well thought out, what was the thinking behind it.

And, no, I'm not a debunker. I'm just new to some of the 2012, ufo, illuminati, and pending doom posts I read on Avelon and Camelot. I'm not sure what I believe.

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Old 11-16-2008, 04:32 AM   #6
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

some of us on here are preparing physically, food gas masks, bird flu masks ect.. some spritually.. but most of us a preparing with a little of each.. the usa has about 3 days of food stocks left and the uk prob not far behind.. we are headed for economic collapse. actually its happening in slow motion right now. food proces will sky rocket so expect hyper inflation.. we may or may not have a full scale ww3 nuke war.. im not worried about the human stuff. i more preparing for the pole shift, ploe flip, mass coronal ejection
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Old 11-16-2008, 04:39 AM   #7
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggywrinkle View Post
Welcome back to 1880. Life isn't bad at all. Yeah, I'd miss the computer... It is about living well on very little no matter what life throws at you.

1880's??? whaaaaa....
noooooo I reincarnated for the George Jetson option

Last edited by sebring1963; 11-16-2008 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 11-16-2008, 04:49 AM   #8
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchjacket View Post
And, no, I'm not a debunker. I'm just new to some of the 2012, ufo, illuminati, and pending doom posts I read on Avelon and Camelot. I'm not sure what I believe.
We aren't sure what we believe either. Things have not
unfolded quite like the predictions called for. Gold has not risen, it has fallen defying the law of supply and demand.

The october suprise was nowhere near what it was predicted to be. Were we wrong? Were we foolish?
No, there are people on this forum who are road kill
in the aftermath. I am aware of two families directly.
My suspicion is that we have been pushed out the window and just haven't hit ground...yet. Every day
more folks are laid off. The ripples ever widening.

The best description I have seen is a train wreck in slow motion. What is unfolding will take months, and it will take years to recover from it. James Howard Kunstler called it the Long Emergency. Cliff High predicts it will take generations to recover. ( forty years)

All we know is, three years ago we were building a sailboat with the intention to sail around the world. News at that time prompted an abrupt change of course. Subsequent events have generally supported our decision as a sound one. With minor adjustments, our
life course is set steady as she goes. Our intention is to pay this property off, improve it, sell it and buy one large enough to be Amish self sufficient. That means raising our own feed for our livestock and our own food.
Blending in with a community of plain folk would be good
also. In this fascist environment a low profile is a very good idea. We have also examined emigrating while that is still an option. I am serious as a heart attack. It is not a jest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchjacket View Post
I also know of the necessity of having food and water put by for local disasters.

The reason for the post was to get a feeling of whether this "movement" if I can call it that for this instance, was largely emotional and knee jerkish or if it was thought out and methodical.
We need your voice and guidance in this forum to help set the tone and direction. Many of the readers are young and there is a need for leadership. I have fielded
several private messages from individuals seeking guidance myself to the best of my ability. The need is there.

Those members who have logged some miles under their
keels need to step up to the plate and tell what they know. The older among us must reach into their memories to the knowledge which helped our ancestors
navigate treacherous times. There is no room for panic.
That is not a luxury we can afford. We need steady hands at the helm.
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Old 11-16-2008, 05:53 AM   #9
Greg222
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

Simple, read the book: THE CREATURE FROM JEKYLL ISLAND by G. Edward Griffin. Note how world events are going exactly as the secret societies have planned. Note their purpose to depopulate the earth to a comfy half a billion people (Georgia Guide Stones is one place you can get that number).
Note the current banking 'crisis', which is simply part of their plan.
Then, put it all together.
Our society is a very fragile construct, bringing it down is relatively easy for them... and it is their goal. To be unaware of this is the height of self-imposed ignorance on ones part.
Plus (something referred to in the book) search for THE REPORT FROM THE IRON MOUNTAIN on the web and feast your eyes on the future.
Quite simply, mass starvation and anarch are a great way to depopulate.
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Old 11-16-2008, 06:24 AM   #10
Irving
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

As for provable aspects and facts I think that the current slowly unfolding U.S., and worldwide, economic crisis is a great starting point for skeptics. Few realize how intense the comming economic times will be. The U.S. Federal Reserve Wal Street bailouts, stimulus packages and governmental interference in the free market are only going to make the problem much much worse. The Coke vs. Pepsi choice of McCain or Obama left the American people with little option as both are going to further damage the economy through policy. These governmental interferences in the free market are akin to further injections of heroin for a drug addict - it may help things feel better for a very short time while the inevitable crash will be much worse.

The comming economic crash is going to be extremly bad for two main reasons. 1.) The underlying foundation of the U.S. economy is ridiculously unsound in a very simple way 2.) Continued governmental interference that will only exacerbate the problem

Over the past few decades the U.S. has slowly transformed from being a nation that saved and produced to being a nation that borrows and overconsumes.

The U.S. has around 5% of the worlds population and consumes about 25% of the worlds resources on debt - 11 trillion dollars of debt. The U.S. also borrows most of this money from the same nations that it imports the majority of its goods from, such as China. So essentially these foreign countries might as well be just giving the U.S. goods for free. America's contempory high standard of living is based almost entirely upon debt while the rest of the world produces, saves and sacrifices and a country can only borrow so much for so long. We are simply witnessing the end of this era. The end would be smoother and more gradual if government did not interfer in the market, but, since they are trying to reinflate the phoney economy, the eventual crash will be much more rough.

The U.S. has no ability to ever repay its massive debts because, as mentioned, it no longer has a sufficient ability to produce and save as more and more manufacturing jobs are being sent overseas to countries that have third world dictators who keep their workers in line. Essentially half of the malls in the U.S should be demolished and replaced with factories if we were to have a viable national economy.

What I am getting at here is the fact that the entire foundation of the U.S. economy, which has been decades in the making, is a vast illusory bubble which absolutly must pop. Peak job loss will be incredible because most U.S. jobs are in the service sector and revolve around consumption that is based upon credit. Governmental policy is currently aimed at trying to reinflate the U.S.' dying phoney bubble economy and is only going to make the problem far worse and likely create hyperinflation through injections of credit into the marketplace.

I think that once you learn that a severe economic depression is entirely inevitable within the next few years, your entire worldview will change as you realize that at least 90% of the populace has entirely no idea. The vast majority of Congress do not even understand this simple problem, it is outside of their worldview.

I highly recommend the words and work of Peter Schiff for further information as well as LewRockwell.com

I also personally believe that the world's corporate monopolists and big bankers have deliberatly created this crash through policy as to usher in a new global monetary system. The information is out there and the dots only need connecting.

It can be difficult to talk about these subjects without invoking fear. I look at it as being very interesting, exciting and mysterious because no one is exactly sure how this will all pan out. I, for one, am not running or hiding or fearing. Instead, I am actually very pumped.

Out of wisdom and foresite for the future and knowledge of the purpose of the 2nd amendment I do have a couple of firearms and a couple of months of food. I think that guns are optional depending upon your spiritual stance and if you feel lucky, haha. I would certainly recommend having a bit of food on hand though. I look at it as getting myself basically prepared with some essentials so that I can be in a calm state of mind to help and/or comfort others should big things start to happen.

I have only brushed upon the economic side of things here. There are a TON of other factors that I have in mind as well! haha But I look at life as being just a ride anyway. I have no fear of death and sometimes am actually excited to die. I have surrendered my fear and have nothing to hide. The mere mystery that anything is in existence whatsoever has been enough to enthral me ever since I was a kid.

Last edited by Irving; 11-16-2008 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 11-16-2008, 04:38 PM   #11
Patchjacket
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

Thank you for your comments to my thread. They are well written and thought out. I agree that some of the Avelon members with the benefits of "mileage" need to give perspective to the forum. Many here don't know that they can survive and that there are people with knowledge that will step in to help them.

I've heard the chants of survivalists, fear mongers, new-agers, and "hippies" since my early teens and everything old is new again - except this time it rings truer. Fortunately I also grew up around older relatives, grand parents and my dad's aunts and uncles, who lived in tougher times. They'd tell tales about the "old" days and how they endured and survived. Certainly their constructs of what they could expect out of life were different than the "boomers". They didn't expect more than what they had already experienced. Boomers grew up with the idea , rightfully so, that they could better their parents. Effort and education was the key. Imagination was all it took. I don't think my son will fare as well as we have and he's far better educated and much brighter.

What disturbs me is that many of the young ones don't believe in each other. People are a resource in tough times, not always an enemy.

Ever,
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Old 11-17-2008, 05:44 AM   #12
777 The Great Work
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchjacket View Post
This is an open question to the community regarding something that I just don't get. I am curious about how you came to the conclusion that it is going to be or will be an every-man-for-himself situation very soon.

What triggered your belief that you must run from civilization and/or hoard food, and/or arm yourself? Who is the enemy? Are there any good-guys?

Was is it something someone said? Your intuition? Is it the people you associate with?

You see, I don't feel that way and just wondered what knowledge you have. And, where did you get the information that extreme action needs to be taken.

As Ever
Patchjacket
Humanity have a hard time letting go of its suffering. Out of a fear of the unknown, they prefer suffering that is familiar.
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Old 11-17-2008, 06:03 AM   #13
munkey
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchjacket View Post
Thank you for your responses.
If I may clarify my question, the use of the term "hoard" was deliberate. I was referring to people who, without careful deliberation go and buy all of anything they can based on a headline in the paper or one speech by a charismatic speaker.

I know about "putting food by" and come from a long line of pioneer stock. I helped Mom can fruit and vegetables (even pickled eggs) as a child.

I also know of the necessity of having food and water put by for local disasters. My husband is a Red Cross Disaster Volunteer who is sent to distribute food to homes and shelters in times of hurricanes, tornadoes and floods. I've always got a eye on the pantry as to what staples are needed should we get stranded up on our hill. (note: I'm a city dweller with a steep and long driveway- impassable when it snows).

The reason for the post was to get a feeling of whether this "movement" if I can call it that for this instance, was largely emotional and knee jerkish or if it was thought out and methodical. And, if it was well thought out, what was the thinking behind it.

And, no, I'm not a debunker. I'm just new to some of the 2012, ufo, illuminati, and pending doom posts I read on Avelon and Camelot. I'm not sure what I believe.

Patchjacket
You answered your own question with the line

Quote:
My parents grew up as part of the "hungry" poor during the depression. Mom remembers at age 8 climbing a tree to watch the bank drive off what was left of the family's dairy herd - the only way they had to make a living.
the world is heading into resession and the US into depression, no money being loaned to farmers for the next crop.
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Old 11-17-2008, 06:57 AM   #14
Samarkis
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Default Re: Why run? Why hoard? What evidence?

Blessings to all!!!

I would like to remind every one of OPTIONS!!!!!! There is a man that is from the days of Franklin Roosevelt that saw 1st hand how to pick up Society and give Humanity back their dignity.

That man is Lyndon La Rouche.(WWW.Larouchepac.com) He has a simple but efficient way to CHANGE the monetary system. It is a way to deal with the physical economy that will provide jobs for MILLIONS. It will jumpstart so many small places and give humanity the relief it needs to implement great forward thinking communities such as Project Venus(from Zeitgeist Addendum).

The plan that La Rouche has put together will aleviate the suffering and give
back the hopes to millions of people that need to move forward. I ask all of you: Have you EVER heard of anyone complaining of TOO MANY FLOWERS?

I yet ask of you: Are not Humans & Humanity more sacred than flowers???

I call on all of you to open your hearts and your inner mind's eye to seek
the opportunities that Humankind will generate their solutions from abundance
and from the innate sacredness of our stewardship of this Earth even at this time!!!!!!!!

Blessings that your hopes,your energies,your everbounding love will encompass the solutions that Earth and all her inhabitants need!!!!!!

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