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Old 11-11-2008, 11:59 PM   #1
astropsyche
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Default Is this Forum elitist?

Is the Forum navel-gazing and elitist? I cannot help wondering how many people living below the 'technology poverty' line consider the things which are posted on this Forum. Could it be true that we are indulging in contemplating our collective, well educated and well-nourished navels as our world deals with catastrophes of many kinds - not least the global currency crime which is being inflicted upon us. The continent where the current holocaust is being generated by post-colonial manipulations of the original oppressors is Africa. Not every country in Africa it is true - still, I wonder how useful and beneficial the comfortable prognostications posted here are for the human beings who dwell in these countries. Have we all given up on NOW [and the vast majority of world citizens] as we seek to share the visions of how a chosen or self-selected few can make it into the future??
As comfortable dwellers of the West, some of us may well survive whatever devastation MIGHT occur at SOME POINT, and Ground Crews everywhere will no doubt feel utterly vindicated by their foresight in preparing so well in the face of an as yet unspecified catastrophe. But stop and consider this - IF the energy and vision we selfishly expend here on trying to ensure the survival of the very few [per the instructions of the manuals] was collectively focused on overPowering the iniquities and cruelties perpetrated on millions [who are NOT in a position to speculate and prepare to survive ] that we just might be able to harness sufficient Positive Strength to avert this impending [possible] disaster we spend hours here discussing! Are we in danger of acting like spoiled rich kids who have no time to spare for poor ignorant other folks?
My honest and considered view is that we all need to look to our collective responsibilities as members of the human race and carefully consider what is to be gained from this Forum - to not turn our gaze from the misery of 9/10ths of humanity who do not share our good fortune. Not to give up on the rest of humanity and assume we are the inheritors of the Earth - we are some of the most open to newness and positivity, educated and compassionate folk - or are we?
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:06 AM   #2
AndyH
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by astropsyche View Post
Is the Forum navel-gazing and elitist? I cannot help wondering how many people living below the 'technology poverty' line consider the things which are posted on this Forum. Could it be true that we are indulging in contemplating our collective, well educated and well-nourished navels as our world deals with catastrophes of many kinds - not least the global currency crime which is being inflicted upon us. The continent where the current holocaust is being generated by post-colonial manipulations of the original oppressors is Africa. Not every country in Africa it is true - still, I wonder how useful and beneficial the comfortable prognostications posted here are for the human beings who dwell in these countries. Have we all given up on NOW [and the vast majority of world citizens] as we seek to share the visions of how a chosen or self-selected few can make it into the future??
As comfortable dwellers of the West, some of us may well survive whatever devastation MIGHT occur at SOME POINT, and Ground Crews everywhere will no doubt feel utterly vindicated by their foresight in preparing so well in the face of an as yet unspecified catastrophe. But stop and consider this - IF the energy and vision we selfishly expend here on trying to ensure the survival of the very few [per the instructions of the manuals] was collectively focused on overPowering the iniquities and cruelties perpetrated on millions [who are NOT in a position to speculate and prepare to survive ] that we just might be able to harness sufficient Positive Strength to avert this impending [possible] disaster we spend hours here discussing! Are we in danger of acting like spoiled rich kids who have no time to spare for poor ignorant other folks?
My honest and considered view is that we all need to look to our collective responsibilities as members of the human race and carefully consider what is to be gained from this Forum - to not turn our gaze from the misery of 9/10ths of humanity who do not share our good fortune. Not to give up on the rest of humanity and assume we are the inheritors of the Earth - we are some of the most open to newness and positivity, educated and compassionate folk - or are we?
Good post. Although not all of us are in the west, it's reasonable to assume that we are all above the technological poverty line as you put it.
How do you propose we bring those people in on this?
For that matter, I wonder sometimes if perhaps some people who are far more independant than us will fare better regardless of whatever scenario pans out?

I suppose there is no answer other than to make sure that the doom and gloom prophesised never comes to fruition....somehow.
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:17 AM   #3
eaglespirit
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

IF the energy and vision we selfishly expend here on trying to ensure the survival of the very few [per the instructions of the manuals] was collectively focused on overPowering the iniquities and cruelties perpetrated on millions [who are NOT in a position to speculate and prepare to survive ] that we just might be able to harness sufficient Positive Strength to avert this impending [possible] disaster we spend hours here discussing!

Hi Astropsyche, How are You?

IF the energy and vision we unselfishly expend here on trying to ensure the survival of the most...around mother earth

I believe that most of us here on this site ARE doing what I just stated above in my edited sentence...at least those here I am in touch with and those in my life in front of me that are "unselfishly" tuning into unconditional love are doing. Sending "healing and loving and oneness" energy all around mother earth by simply sending healing and loving and oneness energy in and with everything they think and feel and do in front of them and consciously sending these heartfelt intentions to EVERYONE on Mother Earh!
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:47 AM   #4
LaRosa
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

In South America, I know a lot a citizens are so low in technology, they have not a single clue about what a forum is. Never heard about Illuminati or stuff that is discussed here. Guess what? They are already prepared for whatever changes lays ahead and ready to fight for their survival. If they happens to be living in a safe zone, the might even be ignoring about the worldwide changes. I think the right thing to do is to educate one another. Between cultures and classes.
I give tech, you give grow, she give energy, different levels, same planet. Diversity, the best survival quality. Cheers!
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Old 11-12-2008, 01:05 AM   #5
Rareheart
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

The beauty of free will is that we all get to look at any situation in any light we choose. If you elect to see this gathering as elitist, then so be it. The number of opinions expressed here is only limited by the number of members.

Each opinion has as much value as any other.

This question is an excellent example of how each of us are guided by our own free will. Astropsyche...the question itself reveals you...just as any question anyone might ask speaks of who they are at any given time. Please ask more questions of this depth...well done.

Each question we ask tells great things of us.
Thanks for partaking of this forum.

All Love.
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Old 11-12-2008, 01:13 AM   #6
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

.

Last edited by 371; 12-17-2009 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 11-12-2008, 04:38 AM   #7
unloadedgunn
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

Well astro, if I understand what you are saying. It boils down to something like "don't we all have a lot of gall to be contemplating these deep issues, when the 3rd world, which can not even hope to have its collective physical needs met hasn't the time, energy or capacity to ruminate like us fat and happy westerners"

I will attempt to convey my 2 cents about this...here goes.

1) We have ALL had our collective struggles NO MATTER what our ethnicity. I personally am Scottish, and not only have my clansman been persecuted and displaced generally by the Crown, but my clan SPECIFICALLY was marked by certain royals for total genocide...TWICE. Name and ethnic group (never mind I will) that hasn't been effected adversely by the PTB... um, I can't really think of one so I will list the ones who HAVE been screwed over.

The Native Americans, Aztecs, Aborigines, Africans, Central and South Americans, Eskimos, Hawaiians, Tibetans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Jews, Germans, Pretty much all the Slavics, Iraqis, Muslims, Palestinians, Maoris, Timorese, Serbs, Philipinos, Albanians, Indians, etc. So just because our status TODAY places us above worrying about our day-to-day needs and affords us the opportunity to dwell on the issues discussed herein...well that brings me to item 2.

2) IF YOU BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU READ HERE, ASTRO, THEN YOU BELIEVE THAT OUR TURN IS COMING! How many of the whistleblowers do you have to listen to before you believe that in all likelihood the next MAJOR war will occur on AMERICAN soil? Perhaps we have enjoyed a few years of relative peace, but we may yet pay for it in the end. Relative peace brings me to item 3.

3) Our ancestors arrived here as early as around 1600 and STRUGGLED to eke out a living. I am still awestruck by the vast stretches of pasture here in New England with all of the stone walls. I am in awe of it because this was done by back breaking labor, blood, sweat, and tears...um and maybe an oxen or two. The early settlers worked 18 hour days to get us where we are today. THEN came the Revolutionary War, then the Civil War, the mass slaughter which was WW II, then Korea, then Viet Nam, the Grenada, then Gulf War I, then Bosnia, then Afganistan, then Gulf War II, now we have the ugly specter of a potential conflict with Iran looming on the horizon, and I personally think we WILL be seeing Chinese and/or Russian troops HERE with 2 years.

4) On a more personal note; my mom was a single parent raising 4 children with no child support, before that, during the Depression, my uncle had to "jack" deer in order to put food on the table. WE ALL pull ourselves up from whatever our environmental conditions to become what we are (MAYBE) See if you believe any of the metaphysical ***** you read on this site, then you believe that we make a choice to incarnate into whatever situation we now find ourselves in. I'm guessing the poor African baby who dies of an easily curable condition like diarhea, gets where its going a lot quicker than you and me, fat and happy as we are.

5) If we, who have the time energy and the computers to study this stuff, and hopefully DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, don try, who will???

If you ask me if we are elitist (meaning me) I would have to say "no". You on the other hand...
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:20 AM   #8
Baggywrinkle
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

You are either part of the solution or part of the problem.

Is a peace corps volunteer elitist by bringing new knowledge and new ways of doing things? Perhaps.

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

Instead of pontificating, how about rolling up your sleeves and getting some community building done. That IS
what Avalon is all about.

There is much work to do and little time. Action talks BS walks. I'm typing this by kerosene lamp light. Why?
So I know how. My Dave Gingery metalshop series just arrived. It is my intention to build my own metal lathe and Savonious Rotor. Why? So I know how, and can teach YOU when the time arrives.

I am looking for serious action minded people to help us research for Avalon. We are looking for a cadre of people all over the world to form a nucleus for the radiant zones. Help us to help you. Trolls need not apply.
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:38 AM   #9
THE eXchanger
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

probably close to 80% of the world,
will NEVER show up online,
you know, the ones, that make less than $5/day,
and, some of them, even less $2/day

maybe, they are the free ones !!!

they make what they need in a day
invest, part of that into tomorrow
and, then, they repeat the process

if you travel around the world
into places like mainland china
you will meet some of them

they are happy
and, seem to be quite fulfilled
with NOT a lot of stuff/or stuffing

i will bet, that they keep the collective consciousness
quite well balanced, since, they do NOT know
what it means, to line up at a bank
nor, to get beyond tomorrow,
they live, in this day

they play simple games, they tell storys,
they don't have a clue, what a credit bureau is,
and, probably do NOT have some sort of
strawman/id #

and, they live very close to the earth !!!

someday; i would love to go around the world
and, create a documentary,
about the "real people"

brightest blessings
susan
the eXchanger
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:47 AM   #10
astropsyche
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

I stand by what I have written above. I am indeed working very hard to contribute love light and life within the community I am currently living in - to the best of my ability. What I am decidedly NOT doing is trying to form enclaves of priveleged persons with the express aim of surviving a catastrophe none of us know is actually going to happen! Whilst the good people of this Forum go about their business in working out ways to survive mythical days of destruction, I will continue to wonder if we all would be better served taking a full and active part in the general human community within which most of us live. Methinks there is lots of Stargate Atlantis type aspiration here and it concerns me that so many apparently talented persons spend lots of time and energy trying to build what I still think are elitist enclaves.
All the high-faluting sentiments and 'enlightened thinking' I read here seem utterly at odds with the actual lives of people living here and now under appalling conditions. The contributer to this thread who informs us that impoverished citizens of the third world don't need to spend time doing what is being done by Members of this Forum because they already know how to survive with very little would do well to seriously consider the implications of what they have written! Noble poor eh? A very enlightened observation? I think not.
And to the Member who makes the observation that most of the third world are stupid, poor and unable to amass the things needed to survive so why bother to make any effort for these billions. I think these are precisely the sentiments and value judgements of an elitist!
A very wise woman once warned me to beware of 'glamour' on the difficult road to enlightenment and freedom - and of taking one's Self too seriously!
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Old 11-12-2008, 08:17 AM   #11
Steve_A
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

Hi astropsyche,

You could be forgiven in thinking that this forum is elitist, however nothing can be further from the truth.

Brazil is one of the most advanced, in terms of Internet, countries of the world, in third place behind the US and Europe. growth in technology of all kinds in Brazil is rife, even 'favelados' have cell phones. It's down to personal priorities. Somebody in another post told me that Americans prefer cars and guns. Over here in Brazil, it seems to be cell phones..... and guns!

The people in tis forum are here because they are interested in what the forum stands for and to share and offer information which is important to them. Are they elitist? I don't think so, just interested.

If we look again at Brazilians, I have contacted three Brazilians in this forum, of 180,000,000 here in Brazil and millions more in other countries and the funny thing is that those that contacted me were living away from Brazil!

The average Brazilian is more interested in national politics than world politics as the national scene always has something happening. They are more interested in soccer, although the attendance at football stadiums does'nt honestly reflect this, are a very machist nation and loves to watch the 'tele novelas', the 'soaps' to you and me. Does that make us more elitist? Not really. It just makes them interested in other things.

So you could ask me why is there a high concentration of US and European visitors to the site. Possibly because the site is in English. If the site was in Chinese, would you visit it? I wouldn't understand it so I know I wouldn't.

So as you can see there are many factors to be taken into consideration why we visit and participate in this forum. As I understand it, we are all of different education levels, ages, nationalities, religious beliefs, tendencies, political beliefs etc.

Are we elitists? Pas de tout.

Best regards,

Steve

Quote:
Originally Posted by astropsyche View Post
My honest and considered view is that we all need to look to our collective responsibilities as members of the human race and carefully consider what is to be gained from this Forum - to not turn our gaze from the misery of 9/10ths of humanity who do not share our good fortune. Not to give up on the rest of humanity and assume we are the inheritors of the Earth - we are some of the most open to newness and positivity, educated and compassionate folk - or are we?
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Old 11-12-2008, 08:28 AM   #12
capreycorn
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

yeah elitist..me too


ps: I`m a middle class elitist like in: "elitists `r` us"
the middle class might disappear pretty soon; then it might look like this:
elite in their "deep underground"/ "the island" safe places and the other
half (us) together with the starving ethiopians/chinese farmers..
avalon is for "elitists `r`us" preparing for/role playing the "starving ethernopians" life style.

Last edited by capreycorn; 11-12-2008 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 11-12-2008, 08:29 AM   #13
capreycorn
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

so many people are superficial
because they want to be special
and claim to be so good in bed
but they are emotionally dead.
it`s cooler to be ready to rumble
than to be just simple and humble
the media tells us to be pop
and to shop till you drop
we`re slaves of the economy
in a world of dychotomy
it`s easyer to just ignore
a good man like al gore
to think that he`s a bore
telling us: our planet is sore!
it`s not only the wealthy
whose minds are filthy
since we are all capable
of making a difference
but just too comfortable
drugged with indifference
always afraid of loss
we`d rather be boss
not earth`s caretaker
rather it`s undertaker
we are not dumb.
excess information
makes us numb
to earth`s
situation.


my bitch
wants to be rich
i think i am also guilty
as i live in a land of plenty.
so i give money to greenpeace
and for a hungry kid in ethiopia
but i won`t give up my utopia!

my life has become more tough
so more expensive and rough
and i`m no mother theresa
i want to travel to pisa
want to have sun
and fun!
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:46 AM   #14
Worlds Beyond 2
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

Atropsyche,

I wholeheartedly agree with you, both of your posts, and I 'get' exactly where you are coming from. Thank you for your post. it is like a breath of fresh air and connected straight to my heart/soul !

Why? well.. whilst I feel it is positive, and to some extent important, that people (west or East or South or North) have an awareness of some of the issues on this forum, I also feel that there is sadly also a lot of hypothetical navel-gazing, self-serving/self-preservationism .. and a sometimes strong air of some kind of 'spiritual hierarchy' to be fair... and a whiole heap of what I'll call "insular thinking & behaviour" ... (no, NOT all on here, but definitely amongst a fair few folks/mods) ...

in spite of what some folks have posted in this thread, if you stand outside this forum and look in here objectively, there definitely IS an core element of Elitism within this forum itself (e.g. some of the comments/tone/approach taken made by some members/mods in the past few weeks - some of which is extremely elitist... and also at times very rude and dismissive of others... a major part of why I left this forum as a member last week.. but that's a whole other story which I don't have the energy or time to start getting into!).

I tried to convey ideas very similar to your points, Astropsyche, in a few of my previous posts (under my previous name of Worlds Beyond), as I felt that hwilst some are in here ego-fighting, point-scoring and on some kind of spiritual or intellectual "superiority trip", there are 28 kids dying every minute of every day from starvation alone on this planet. Yet so many in here speak of "we are all one" and "we are all connected" and "enlightenment" and "awareness" , Karma, positivity, etc... etc... It made no sense at all to me.. as there seemed to be very few who were actually LIVING the talk, or actually DOING things to help others.. here and now.... the ones in REAL need in the here and now.. the ones we ARE connected to, and also collectively repswonible for... surely this is one of the MAJOR components of being Spiritual/Enlightened/Awake/Aware... the realisation that everything/everyone is connected and everything has a consequence?


For example, I posted that I'd rather spend £5 per month on helping a child to eat/survive in the here and now, than pay for a subscription to read about how to stock up my pantry for some possible future date... a point that seemed to elicit a deafening silence, apart from one comment that the suffering of this world are in that position due to "their Karma" and we "should do nothing about it" (excuse me for not recalling exact words)... I was deeply saddened and also quite shocked by some of the attitudes, arrogance, dismissiveness of quite a few (NOT all!) on Avalon forum..

When I first found Avalon, I was SO excited and full of hope and positive feelings about this forum.... I came here with nothing but peace, love, light and my experiences, ideas, caring heart.. was open to learning and ready for sharing my own journey/learnings... thinking (naively perhaps?) that this was a place were people came together to try to create a better place/improvement for people... for humanity ... in the face of all the control/darkness in this world etc ... I stayed a couple of weeks then I left.... I felt the tone, level of communication/co-operation and awareness of a reasonable number here (mods as well as members) was sadly and surprisingly lacking.. lacking in the VERY spiritual awareness, enlightenment, freedoms, purpose, truth/honesty and sense of basic care/respect for other members of humanity (whether in Africa or USA or Middle East or nextdoor!) that this forum was all about!

A day later I re-signed up here, only because I was absolutely appalled that my last post on here elicited such a rude, arrogant and totally dismissive response from a mod. I was then equally appalled and disgusted that my (non-contentious) reply was immediately deleted by another mod, AFTER having first deleted my account here (giving me no way to respond!), then his publically posted explanation made it all appear a VERY different way entirely to the facts that happened!

However, I took some time out and reaslied there was little point continuing to try and get that little matter sorted out, as whatever I had to say would probably be censored/deleted/misrepresented or whatever.. I realised that my voice meant nothing here.. am just an ordinary humble soul with no PA/PC credentials or connections... and I didn't want to get into ANY confilct or battle just to get my voice heard fairly.... so i left it alone.

However, I have come back today.. just to state that I think and feel your post is one of the most sane, spiritually "on-track" and positive I have seen on this forum... Spirituality and Preparedness and Awareness is more about what we all do in the NOW, for OTHER people on this planet, as opposed what we're doing to self-serve or self-preserve in the 'tomorrows' of our lives.. Whilst I think there are some truly enlightened souls lurking around this forum, there are plenty who seem to be missing the point entirely... in my humble opinion..

Which is more spiritually enlightened/valuable to this planet or humanity.... Having 100 cans of beans and a publically posted shopping list of survival items? Figuring out what is going to happen in 2012 or tomorrow or 3,100?
Or making a regular/real contribution (not necessarily financial! there's PLENTY of other ways.. volunteering, campaigning, raising awareness etc etc etc) to others who have not even got the basics for life, let alone the privileges that many on here do?

Spirituality is not about knowing some ancient texts, or knowing any jargon, or the latest "guru" or meme or whatever, it is the simple, basic, everyday actions, carried out in humility and grace, for others.

I've known some 'down and outs', some "weeds", some 'nobody's' of this world to be more spiritually aware /evolved /enlightened /good hearted /well-intentioned/true & honest, than I have some (SOME, not ALL!) of the people I've come across in here (and other supposedly "awake" places)...

I realise this post will possibly be deleted (as I have mentioned a previous Mod incident which made me feel very uncomfortable/unfairly censored) or gain some less-than open-minded listening from many members ... but I truly have not come in here to have ANY conflict... I just wanted to add my voice to what I feel is a very sane, intelligent (in the true sense) and TRULY spiritually aware post....

Spirituality/Enlightenment is not just some airy-fairy, hugging-the-flowers, saying "namaste" every 2 minutes, nor is it about meditation or religion or channeling or crytals or whatever else you use as a route to try and access/evoleve our souls/learning/understanding.... ...

Spirituality and awareness is about REAL Values, REAL connectedness to one another, REAL love/care/respect for ALL, REAL actions, REAL consequences... REAL Humility.. and REAL Grace... every day..


To help those we know is one thing , to help those who we do not know, and have NO way of ever 'repaying' us... THAT is giving!


'What I give to others, I gain.
What I keep for myself, I have already lost.'


Peace and Light

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Old 11-12-2008, 10:06 AM   #15
Steve_A
Project Avalon Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northeastern Brazil
Posts: 1,259
Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

Hi Worlds Beyond 2,

I will need a little time to reply to the content of your post.

However, rest assured that this post, left to me, will not be deleted nor edited.

The logic and well argumented manner of the post merits its' permanence, even if others may not agree.

The way this post was presented is very different to some rather terse posts that had to be moderated. We must understand, that even though others may not agree we still deserve respect.

As Winston Churchill said once to a member of the opposition who had a different opinion than him, "I am you opponent, not your enemy".

Best regards,

Steve



Quote:
Originally Posted by Worlds Beyond 2 View Post
Atropsyche,

I wholeheartedly agree with you, both of your posts, and I 'get' exactly where you are coming from. Thank you for your post. it is like a breath of fresh air and connected straight to my heart/soul !

Why? well.. whilst I feel it is positive, and to some extent important, that people (west or East or South or North) have an awareness of some of the issues on this forum, I also feel that there is sadly also a lot of hypothetical navel-gazing, self-serving/self-preservationism .. and a sometimes strong air of some kind of 'spiritual hierarchy' to be fair... and a whiole heap of what I'll call "insular thinking & behaviour" ... (no, NOT all on here, but definitely amongst a fair few folks/mods) ...

in spite of what some folks have posted in this thread, if you stand outside this forum and look in here objectively, there definitely IS an core element of Elitism within this forum itself (e.g. some of the comments/tone/approach taken made by some members/mods in the past few weeks - some of which is extremely elitist... and also at times very rude and dismissive of others... a major part of why I left this forum as a member last week.. but that's a whole other story which I don't have the energy or time to start getting into!).

I tried to convey ideas very similar to your points, Astropsyche, in a few of my previous posts (under my previous name of Worlds Beyond), as I felt that hwilst some are in here ego-fighting, point-scoring and on some kind of spiritual or intellectual "superiority trip", there are 28 kids dying every minute of every day from starvation alone on this planet. Yet so many in here speak of "we are all one" and "we are all connected" and "enlightenment" and "awareness" , Karma, positivity, etc... etc... It made no sense at all to me.. as there seemed to be very few who were actually LIVING the talk, or actually DOING things to help others.. here and now.... the ones in REAL need in the here and now.. the ones we ARE connected to, and also collectively repswonible for... surely this is one of the MAJOR components of being Spiritual/Enlightened/Awake/Aware... the realisation that everything/everyone is connected and everything has a consequence?


For example, I posted that I'd rather spend £5 per month on helping a child to eat/survive in the here and now, than pay for a subscription to read about how to stock up my pantry for some possible future date... a point that seemed to elicit a deafening silence, apart from one comment that the suffering of this world are in that position due to "their Karma" and we "should do nothing about it" (excuse me for not recalling exact words)... I was deeply saddened and also quite shocked by some of the attitudes, arrogance, dismissiveness of quite a few (NOT all!) on Avalon forum..

When I first found Avalon, I was SO excited and full of hope and positive feelings about this forum.... I came here with nothing but peace, love, light and my experiences, ideas, caring heart.. was open to learning and ready for sharing my own journey/learnings... thinking (naively perhaps?) that this was a place were people came together to try to create a better place/improvement for people... for humanity ... in the face of all the control/darkness in this world etc ... I stayed a couple of weeks then I left.... I felt the tone, level of communication/co-operation and awareness of a reasonable number here (mods as well as members) was sadly and surprisingly lacking.. lacking in the VERY spiritual awareness, enlightenment, freedoms, purpose, truth/honesty and sense of basic care/respect for other members of humanity (whether in Africa or USA or Middle East or nextdoor!) that this forum was all about!

A day later I re-signed up here, only because I was absolutely appalled that my last post on here elicited such a rude, arrogant and totally dismissive response from a mod. I was then equally appalled and disgusted that my (non-contentious) reply was immediately deleted by another mod, AFTER having first deleted my account here (giving me no way to respond!), then his publically posted explanation made it all appear a VERY different way entirely to the facts that happened!

However, I took some time out and reaslied there was little point continuing to try and get that little matter sorted out, as whatever I had to say would probably be censored/deleted/misrepresented or whatever.. I realised that my voice meant nothing here.. am just an ordinary humble soul with no PA/PC credentials or connections... and I didn't want to get into ANY confilct or battle just to get my voice heard fairly.... so i left it alone.

However, I have come back today.. just to state that I think and feel your post is one of the most sane, spiritually "on-track" and positive I have seen on this forum... Spirituality and Preparedness and Awareness is more about what we all do in the NOW, for OTHER people on this planet, as opposed what we're doing to self-serve or self-preserve in the 'tomorrows' of our lives.. Whilst I think there are some truly enlightened souls lurking around this forum, there are plenty who seem to be missing the point entirely... in my humble opinion..

Which is more spiritually enlightened/valuable to this planet or humanity.... Having 100 cans of beans and a publically posted shopping list of survival items? Figuring out what is going to happen in 2012 or tomorrow or 3,100?
Or making a regular/real contribution (not necessarily financial! there's PLENTY of other ways.. volunteering, campaigning, raising awareness etc etc etc) to others who have not even got the basics for life, let alone the privileges that many on here do?

Spirituality is not about knowing some ancient texts, or knowing any jargon, or the latest "guru" or meme or whatever, it is the simple, basic, everyday actions, carried out in humility and grace, for others.

I've known some 'down and outs', some "weeds", some 'nobody's' of this world to be more spiritually aware /evolved /enlightened /good hearted /well-intentioned/true & honest, than I have some (SOME, not ALL!) of the people I've come across in here (and other supposedly "awake" places)...

I realise this post will possibly be deleted (as I have mentioned a previous Mod incident which made me feel very uncomfortable/unfairly censored) or gain some less-than open-minded listening from many members ... but I truly have not come in here to have ANY conflict... I just wanted to add my voice to what I feel is a very sane, intelligent (in the true sense) and TRULY spiritually aware post....

Spirituality/Enlightenment is not just some airy-fairy, hugging-the-flowers, saying "namaste" every 2 minutes, nor is it about meditation or religion or channeling or crytals or whatever else you use as a route to try and access/evoleve our souls/learning/understanding.... ...

Spirituality and awareness is about REAL Values, REAL connectedness to one another, REAL love/care/respect for ALL, REAL actions, REAL consequences... REAL Humility.. and REAL Grace... every day..


To help those we know is one thing , to help those who we do not know, and have NO way of ever 'repaying' us... THAT is giving!


'What I give to others, I gain.
What I keep for myself, I have already lost.'


Peace and Light

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Old 11-12-2008, 10:50 AM   #16
Worlds Beyond 2
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

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Originally Posted by Steve_A View Post
Hi Worlds Beyond 2,
The way this post was presented is very different to some rather terse posts that had to be moderated. We must understand, that even though others may not agree we still deserve respect.
Steve
Hi Steve A,
thanks for that.

Though I am rather confused concerned by the some of what you said.. quoted above.

I don't recall EVER posting anything in Avalon which was disrespectful or "terse" to anyone, mod or member...

I do recall receiving a clearly rude and dismissive reply (posted publically) from a mod here, to a post I made about feeling uncomfortable and thinking about leaving.. and my reply to the mod concerned included that "I AM NOT STUPID". Yes, I used CAPS.. I was upset and felt very demeaned/dismissed by how the mod spoke to me... but I was trying to point out as peacefully as possible that the mod spoke to me in a way which exactly reflected the point I was originally making.. about how some mods/members (not all) speak to others in less than respectful/peaceful/well-intentioned ways in here! But it seems I was suddenly (and unexpectedly) silenced.

Truth is, I was really upset and rather shocked by the mod's post to me... as I have never come in here to have any battles, and am a very gentle/peaceful soul without any battling bones in my body (I think the very nature of my illness proves that! lol), and it takes me an enourmous amount of physical effort and energy to post in here... due to physical disability/illness.

Anyway, I really do not wish to enter into any argument or discussion about what is past. I just wanted to say that I felt very uncomfortable and felt unfairly and abruptly censored for questioning how a mod spoke to me and trying to 'stand up' for myself a bit to what wasn't a very nice post. Simple as that.

I wish everyone peace.. and really wish everyone could get over themselves/their personal 'issues/agendas' enough to see the BIG picture sometimes. We are all learning.. and ALL teaching each other. Just seems some tend to be more open to actually listening to others' viewpoints more than others I guess! And we are all at differing levels of awareness/understanding and at different points on our paths. A little more tolerance of each other's views/beliefs and levels of awareness/intellect might not go amiss in here.

Anyway, I really don't wish to dwell on this anymore...(even though I seem to be writing quite a bit about it! oops! My apologies!)... there's really too much/more important things to do with the short time I (and all of us to some extent or other!) have left...

I just wanted to say that Astropsyche's post was truly one that shines out on this forum ... whatever your/our views and beliefs.. perhaps some members could try to be a little less defensive about it.. (and less defensive generally when reading other people's messages/thoughts/views).. and take some time out to really think about Astropysche's (or other people's) words/messages... as it certainly rings of some TRUTHS ....!

If we (collectively and individually) cannot act to help the souls who are here with us on the planet now, some of whom suffer largely as a long term/direct/indirect result of our greed, materialism, selfishness etc, then how can we (collectively and individually) expect to evolve or be truly 'enlightened' at all?

As they say.. "Actions speak louder than words!".. it is true!

(... but remember.. our words are very powerful.. and can harm/hurt/divide/darken, as much as they can help/heal/harmonise/enlighten... so choose your words wisely!)


Peaceful Blessings to all


(p.s. to the mod who offended/dismissed me last week.. yes, you did come across as very rude and dismissive.. and it did upset/hurt me. I found it very difficult to then read your subsequent posts about me, with no way of replying... but it is in the past.. and I hold no ill feeling toward you...

..but please.. I just ask you this.. for the sake of yourself and others... maybe look at trying to be a little less assumptive/pre-judging with people in future.. and think about how your words come across to readers/members???

Oh and hey.. just for the record.. 'Worlds Beyond' is a woman, not a man! lol ) ;-)


Peace & Light
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:15 AM   #17
Steve_A
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

Hi Worlds Beyond 2 II,

I understand your opinions about the human side of the way the forum is being used. As in any place where groups meet, be it in the work place, group meeting, Mothers Union, church, anything, you will always get people jostling for social position, for whatever reason. So the 'social' or 'human behaviour' aspect of the forum I think is normal. What we all need to do is understand and be more tolerant (as best we can).

It's important that we come together, however, we all are still in a learning curve, we are all still trying to understand each other, and this is perfectly natural as we all have our differences and due to the number of ideas and people who take part in this site, each one wanting to be heard, needing to be understood, many using English as a second language, so many different ideals, cultures, thoughts, opinions.... the list is endless.

As for the one comment that the suffering of this world are in that position due to "their Karma" and we "should do nothing about it" I am also deeply saddened and also shocked by the attitude, arrogance, dismissiveness of the poster of that message. Not ecause of the context of the message, as I do not know the reality of the person who posted, but by the abruptness of the post.

Even it being a very noble cause, the object of the forum is not to help starving children in Africa.

It is:

• To provide important information and resources to enable individuals and communities to function optimally in what may be troubled times ahead.

• To support aware individuals in networking and forming groups as they wish.

The philosophy of the forum is:

• As stated by George Green in the Project Camelot interview Messages for the Ground Crew, there exist individuals and groups, all over the world, who have an important responsibility and role to play in the preservation of civilization regardless which scenarios may play out.

• These possible scenarios - which include planned financial collapse, war, and population reduction by covert means - can be prevented and changed by the united intention of many concerned individuals. Many of us are working to prepare and awaken others. We know that our efforts to create a new tomorrow will not be in vain. We acknowledge the Ground Crew all over the globe - including (we are confident) ethical and principled individuals within military and intelligence circles worldwide.

• We believe it's prudent to make contingency plans. This site is created to help you do that.

With that in mind, everybody can move forward in a more focussed manner, trying to keep within the parameters of the forum.

So let's get on with being a little more tolerant (as best we can), understanding, compassionate and most important respectful to each ones' differences.

Best regards,

Steve
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:25 AM   #18
Tuza
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

Well Astropsyche had to reply and I haven't read all the posts because I work on the computer and go back and forth to the forum. To the poster stating that people in bad situations deserve it because of karma, you obviously have only studied some parts of philosophy but not all of it, because if you had you would have found out that no matter what situation people find themselves in, as spiritual beings we are all one and should be helping. I donate every month to various charities (not because I can overly afford it) that is why I still work but because I feel the need to. My health suffers quite a bit with different things, so I cannot volunteer to go over and do physical stuff but if I could I would.

Oh and by the way astropsyche I have personally posted on the forum about how I will be going about my business not worrying about what is going to happen or not going to happen tomorrow, the next day, next month or next year, because as I have said before on the forum if I pass on today, tomorrow or whenever then it is my time to go and that is it. You see I believe no matter how hard you try to stay, in survival mode or not, it is not actually up to us whether we stay here or not.

I am far from an elitist for having the darn internet. It does not cost that much you know and I have worked for 40 years now.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:44 AM   #19
jaby
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unloadedgunn View Post
Well astro, if I understand what you are saying. It boils down to something like "don't we all have a lot of gall to be contemplating these deep issues, when the 3rd world, which can not even hope to have its collective physical needs met hasn't the time, energy or capacity to ruminate like us fat and happy westerners"
...
Spot on. The White/Westerner 'guilt-trip' has reared it's head.

I find 'charges' of elitism made on this forum very divisive.



Quote:
Originally Posted by astropsyche View Post
What I am decidedly NOT doing is trying to form enclaves of priveleged persons with the express aim of surviving a catastrophe none of us know is actually going to happen! Whilst the good people of this Forum go about their business in working out ways to survive mythical days of destruction, I will continue to wonder if we all would be better served taking a full and active part in the general human community within which most of us live.
Is it an either/or situation? I find polarising people into groups like this is also divisive. How do you know what people on this forum do when they are not here? Why make assumptions? And if I may say so...'holier than thou' assumptions....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Worlds Beyond 2 View Post
and really wish everyone could get over themselves/their personal 'issues/agendas' enough to see the BIG picture sometimes.
You said it...now, if you will pardon my honesty...do it!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_A View Post
Hi Worlds Beyond 2 II,
It's important that we come together, however, we all are still in a learning curve,
Yes.......
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:57 AM   #20
Peer
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaRosa View Post
In South America, I know a lot a citizens are so low in technology, they have not a single clue about what a forum is. Never heard about Illuminati or stuff that is discussed here. Guess what? They are already prepared for whatever changes lays ahead and ready to fight for their survival. If they happens to be living in a safe zone, the might even be ignoring about the worldwide changes. I think the right thing to do is to educate one another. Between cultures and classes.
I give tech, you give grow, she give energy, different levels, same planet. Diversity, the best survival quality. Cheers!
La Rosa, I think you have a very good point there and I was thinking the same about Africa.
In Africa most people are used to living on <parc< or on nothing at all or on what they can scratch from the trees around the village.
These circumstances have been caused by the greed of the few.
When that greed disappeares (for instance by a worldwide disaster) the africans are most likely better prepared for the living outdoors and having nothing but still surviving than we.
With this I don't mean to say we are not responsible for their poverty now because we are.
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:06 PM   #21
Steve_A
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

Hi Peer,

I totally agree. It's similar in the rural parts of Brazil, where the people live on 'next to nothing'. When the great economic meltdown really kicks in, what will they lose? Nothing. We can learn a lot by watching and copying these people.

On the other side of the coin, and this will highlight what I was saying earlier about our differences and realities, I saw a post on survival equipment. One of the items was a portable toilet! Figure that one out.

So we can see that we are all different with different needs and ideas.

Best regards,

Steve



Quote:
Originally Posted by Peer View Post
La Rosa, I think you have a very good point there and I was thinking the same about Africa.
In Africa most people are used to living on <parc< or on nothing at all or on what they can scratch from the trees around the village.
These circumstances have been caused by the greed of the few.
When that greed disappeares (for instance by a worldwide disaster) the africans are most likely better prepared for the living outdoors and having nothing but still surviving than we.
With this I don't mean to say we are not responsible for their poverty now because we are.
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:47 PM   #22
Worlds Beyond 2
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_A View Post
Even it being a very noble cause, the object of the forum is not to help starving children in Africa.

It is:

• To provide important information and resources to enable individuals and communities to function optimally in what may be troubled times ahead.

• To support aware individuals in networking and forming groups as they wish.

The philosophy of the forum is:

• As stated by George Green in the Project Camelot interview Messages for the Ground Crew, there exist individuals and groups, all over the world, who have an important responsibility and role to play in the preservation of civilization regardless which scenarios may play out.

Steve


Hi again Steve,


I understand the purpose of Avalon isn't about supplying 'charity to Africa' .. I've mentioned such issues in a couple of posts, along with other examples of human suffering, as examples to highlight something I'm trying to express/share as being my understanding of some things which need to be done to reach the ultimate goal / ascension / survival of humanity/light against the Powers/dark ...

so I do think issues such as this ARE part of the overall picture, and feel they are essential to our evolution (spiritual, physical etc) and not just some "noble" or 'do-gooder' cause.. ... I've never raised these issues to act as some kind of 'undercover Charity Fundraiser' or to be "noble" (heaven knows I ain't!) ..... but because I feel they ARE part of the picture in which we all play a part... and are part of the possibe solution!

for me, the life/welfare/'equality of value' of every person/living soul on this planet is an essential part of our individual and global progression/ survival/ evolution/ responsiblity/ spiritual growth... and is exactly what the whole premise of spirituality/connectedness/survival of Earth/Humanity/Freedom is all about!

I guess to each of us, our own ideas of what is a "community" and "helping each other" is different. For me, personally, I see "community" or "civilization" as being the whole of humanity, the entire population of earth.. whether USA, Europe, Australasia, Africa, Asia... we are all connected and responsible somehow, for what happens here and now, as well as in the future...


Steve, with respect, I do understand what Avalon is for. That's why I came here.. as I felt it was the only place I could freely discuss the issues that I'm interested in, and also been having some personal experiences in, and I wanted to learn and to share!

"To support aware individuals in networking and forming groups as they wish"... that's exactly why i came here... especially the word "SUPPORT".. as I wanted to feel 'safe' in chatting to like minded people.. maybe to get together/do things.. ... to try and "preserve civilisation" (humanity) and try to create a free, just, honest and evolved world for all.. now as well as the future!

But perhaps my understanding of the range of options available/ways we can all achieve the overall/ultimate aim of Avalon is not quite the same as the majority on here??

Like I said, for me, "To support aware individuals in networking and forming groups as they wish" and to "preserve civilisation" are big part of the reason I came here.. to find other like-minded people to join up with/chat/try to progress some change on planet Earth.. to feel SAFE chatting about ideas and solutions etc..

maybe my ideas of forming groups/helping others/community/evolving/getting through the darkness is more a global perspective/understanding/aim than for some here? I don' know really.

For me, George Green's "an important responsibility and role to play in the preservation of civilization" doesn't mean saving my own skin in the future... but means doing whatever small act I can to help ensure the survival of my fellow human-beings here and now and to create a better world for the people who will be here long after I am gone!

Perhaps, to me personally, I feel that taking action to help others in the here and now (be it nextdoor of Africa or wherever, be it giving financially, or in matters of emtional/physical/spiritual support/help/guidance) is just as imoprtant (actually, for me, MORE important) than making preparations to ensure my own personal survival through whatever the upcoming events might be!

I do understand the purpose and aims of Avalon.. just maybe I have a slightly different take on how/when to go about it.. the approach that seems to make most sense/spiritual truth for me personally.. or something?? This is why I feel a little more tolerance/open-listening of others' views is vital, and a little more openess and perhaps less rigid control/censorship (obviously not allowing abuse etc!) is of BENEFIT to Avalon...

we all have to try to remain truly OPEN to listening to and considering/evaluating new ideas/perspectives/understandings (even if we don't agree with them!), otherwise we become as closed, rigid, insular and projecting an attitude of "we're in the right" as the very Systems/Powers that have been trying to keep us asleep for so long!

I'm not sure I'm expressing myself very well... So, I shall end now.. otherwise I'm just repeating myself which helps nobody!

I aplogise for my long-winded posts... I do find it hard to express myself sometimes, as apart from being heavily medicated, in pain and so on, which all which makes my brain/thinking foggy at times, I also am constantly realising inside myself so many different threads/connections/layers of understanding and awareness about the whole big picture of what we're here for.. on Earth.. as well as in Avalon (maybe?!).... My physical brain and body might be slow and falling apart, but my mind and consciousness/awareness seem to be getting more and more speeded up recent years.. !!

Peacuful Blessings

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Old 11-12-2008, 01:18 PM   #23
unloadedgunn
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Posts: 66
Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

It is clear that both Astro and Worlds agree that the forum is elitist at best and a waste of time/energy at worst. I have a suggestion: leave. It is very simple really. It always seems like the pragmatists while they might bicker slightly over semantics usually post helpful and realistic yet hopeful posts. The peacenicks who think we can love our way through the troubled times ahead...well we can all see from their posts HERE what we get from them. I have a VERY positive attitude about my future and the future of mankind, but I know we won't get through this thing with just positive intention alone. It will take that to be sure, but without food, and small insular communities, there will be no pockets of humanity left (if some whistle-blowers are right). I have OLY ONE problem with the Avalon Forum, and that is threads like this which contain NOTHING but idle rumination about inconsequential drivel.

However as a HOPEFUL guy, I am sure that after wading through the constant mindless banter, pathetic prognostification, and paranoid claims that the forum has been "highjacked", I will find some pearls of wisdom, and perhaps even *gulp* someone ready to DO MORE THAN JUST TALK, and who wants to get out of the system before it implodes.

Here's hoping that when the "clean up" happens here at Avalon,, threads like this one hit the dustbin first.
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Old 11-12-2008, 01:25 PM   #24
eaglespirit
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

I'll Put It In A Picture To Help The Words To Clarity!


Once each of us decides personally to step out of the wheel of commerce and politics and religion and control we will be helping the "whole" world come back around to self-responsibility of self-sufficiency for there is NO limit and there is NO lack except that which has been created by each of us treading a wheel in the illusion that each of us helps create by treading the wheel.

If each of Us personally decide to jump from the wheel of illusion that is stealing our energy...our very own energy will help energize the world-wide energy of limitlessness and bounty for EVERYONE...one person at a time!

THAT is what this site is about and why MOST of us are here!

And THAT is what IS happening in the now, entrainment is taking hold!

You cannot be an elitist when You look eye to eye and honor all in front of You...and that is what the people in my life do with and by self-responsibility and choice.

And we are both on Mother Earth...Astropsyche!

As each one of us steps from the wheel of distraction with loving consciousness...
that consciousness will see to it that one more person in the world will NOT go without!
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Old 11-12-2008, 01:40 PM   #25
unloadedgunn
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Default Re: Is this Forum elitist?

WOW Eaglespirit...well said. I agree; until we totally turn our back on the current paradigm, and live simply and sustainably in a group of our choice, we are part of the problem.
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