Ex-Christian

100thmonkey · 12-14-2009, 08:51 AM

I know astrologically now is a good time to offload long held ‘story’. This is a defining part of who I am, and, even if nobody reads it, at least I’ve put it out there - and I haven’t found a better spiritual community to do this than Avalon, even of those sites I will link to at the end…

I’m interested in other people’s stories on this subject too, of those who were once christian but have since left.

Anyway, here’s the basics of my spiritual journey…
I used to believe the bible was the inerrant word of god, that those who thought there were contradictions in it just hadn’t had it explained properly. I used to read 'Creation' magazine and the 'Answers in Genesis' people had me fooled for a long while, thinking I was intelligent and scientific in my beliefs about the 6 day Creation, not gullible like those others who were swayed by ‘evil-ution’…

I knew there was one key to dismantling the bible though, but that it would never be found, because it didn’t exist...

Yet I had no fear of facing any argument against the bible, because the bible was God’s word, and, "If God is for you who can be against you?"
I had told myself that if I ever found any true contradictions in the bible then that would be grounds to dismiss the whole thing – because flaws are human, and the bible is the Word of God – God doesn’t make mistakes…
So if there were flaws then that would make the bible just another human authored document, no more valid than any other…
Of course I was bold in that belief because I knew it was impossible – and I was proud of it.

I was never happy in my belief though, I just thought there was no other truth, and I didn’t want to end up in hell for eternity, so I had to submit.

Christianity was a fit to my insular personality too, and going through adolescence it kept me isolated from ‘the world’ – soemthing I’m still having to reprogram myself from, with counselling.
The best way to avoid sex, drugs and drink was to just cut myself off from everyone. Be in the world but not of it.

Yet at the same time the basic indoctrinations made me feel unworthy to hang around with other christians of my age, because I knew my secret ‘shame’.
I knew I was a guilty, worthless, disobedient, piece of filth, fit to burn in hell forever, if I died right then.

Why?
…because I couldn’t help thinking about girls. Sex!
I was evil!
I tried to not think about it, but of course that is impossible.
Asking a teenage boy to not think about girls is like asking a hungry man not to think about food.
Can we resist our natural desire to breathe? or eat? No, it’s inbuilt…

Yet here is the diabolical genius of religion. Find something people can’t do without and bring it under the authority of God.
So sex is forbidden outside of marriage – and who has the authority to marry people? The church… (at least, back in the day…)

It doesn’t seem like much, except if there’s nothing else in your life.

A newsletter I subscribe to had this insightful quote:

Carl Jung pointed out that the principal product of religion is guilt and despair. Despair over this life, despair over our thoughts, despair over our desires, despair over our actions. Dr. Jung states that as we dwell on this despair we drive ourselves into repression in an effort to control our thoughts and desires. This repression then leads to depression, which fosters disease.

It was a disease of the mind.

When the Roman Empire was threatened with anarchy and being overtaken by barbarians they realised they couldn’t maintain their power over people by force of arms any more – they needed to preserve their power more ingeniously.
So Constantine united all the disparate religions under the banner of Christianity – and the Roman Empire eventually became the Roman Church. So that by the time the Barbarians overwhelmed the physical Roman Empire, those Barbarians themselves were already being christianised…

Rome’s power was still in place, the same elite bloodlines as Popes rather than Emperor’s.
The pantheon of god’s now the Saints.
Now the people would follow Rome's authority by their own programmed guilt - Fear of God rather than fear of man…

An in-built Centurion.
Their own minds turned against them as a means of remote control.

But I didn’t figure that out until later.
Back to the story…

One day I was curious as to what arguments the Jews had for rejecting Jesus, after all, isn’t he the fulfilment of their bible too…?
So I boldly stumbled onto the internet looking for answers.
I found a lot of info from Jewish websites that was anti-christian, especially pointing out flaws and contradictions in the gospel story.

“Ha, let me check that out… you just need to … Hmmm, really?
It does say that in the bible? Whoah!”

It seemed that imposible key I spoke of really did exist!

I wasn’t about to turn Jewish, but nevertheless it was a real ‘Matrix moment’.

That waking up to an alien reality.

Discovering the whole world, and life as you’ve known it, is so vastly different than what you’ve been indoctrinated to believe since the day you were born – and in rapid succession all your beliefs are shattered.
It was also absolutley liberating, exciting, mind blowing, yet with the dawning in my mind of how I’d lived my life so, so, wrongly.

It was horrific to finally ‘get’ the trap I’d been in, but joyous to realise the freedom now open to me.

I still had fears about daemons and deception though, what if I was being led astray by a daemon desperate to claim my soul?

Yet I had also begun reading magazines like Nexus and New Dawn.
In one issue of Nexus was an article about the ‘real matrix’ by some dude called David Wilcock…

Yesss!

I was drawn to his website and intrigued. I saw he had online books to read, “The Shift of the Ages”, but hmmm, it’s got chanelled material… How does he prove that’s not just daemons feeding the author lines?
I read it anyway – warily, seeking explanation.

I was impressed with the fact that one of the girls who channeled the Law of One was a christian and, as the bible says to do, ‘tested the spirits’ before a session. Even daemons can’t resist the power of the name of Jesus, so I believed, yet here they were happily continuing their sessions after such a test…
Hmmm, wow…

I was just as interested in the science though.
Through David’s brilliant explanations and ingenious assembly of evidence I started to see a wider spectrum of spirituality, that it’s not just God vs Devil, Good vs Evil, Daemons vs Angels, Black vs White, “You’re either with us or against us!”
…but that there are many densities, many levels and dimensions.
That spirtual entities can also be as honest or as deceptive as humans.

There is no daemon more evil than what a human is capable of. There is no angel more merciful than what a human is capable of.
We, humans and spirits, are all just the same, just some have bodies, some don’t.
It’s our level of awareness that makes the real difference.

That, most of all, I could be scientifically confident - that there really is no such thing as an eternal Hell!

That is liberation folks.

I’m laughing tears of joy right now just thinking of those moments.
I’ve never felt so spiritually alive and free than reading those books.
Thankyou David, I will remember it forever.

Anwyay,
despite my attempts to share this with my christian family, thinking they were as honest as me and if shown the light would come with me on a joyous journey of freedom… I was threatened with being cut off, that I was speaking with the tongues of daemons(!) and trying to drag my own family to hell!
That my father would cease all communication with me, because my words were really that of the devil, who he is duty bound to reject…

If I hadn’t forced further communication with them, maybe I really would be cut off by now?
I do get along with my family - by simply not mentioning religion, unless we all want to get into a yelling match (it may start out polite and such, but, inevitably…)

It pains me though,
because I know they suffer.

My mother even in tears many times - because they truly believe their son is destined for an eternity in a lake of fire.

I hate that the mind of such a loving person has been tortured that way. I wish they could understand what I do.

Somehow they don’t question how unfair and ridiculous hell is (I don’t even understand how I never did either. I guess I was more caught up in defending such things as part of the larger gospel framework than actually picking it apart), but…

If I am deceived, at least I am honestly deceived.
I don’t believe I deserve punishment for that.

...and shouldn’t any ‘punishment’ go to the deceiver, not the honestly deceived?

In other words, bible god’s sense of justice is seriously skewed. To the point I cannot accept it – even if it turns out to be the horrific truth.
The all-knowing one will just have to listen to my martyred screams of protest in hell for eternity…
Of course that horrible scenario is absurd…

I am earnest in my spiritual quest.
I am open to others and want to understand everything.

Yet still I struggle.
There are still issues of personal negativity for me to deal with – I want to be open about it though.
Maybe there are similar minds on this forum?

My own mind is in two places:

- absorbing, processing, claiming and sharing all the knowledge and higher spiritual wisdom that is now open to me - and this Camelot/Avalon community is the most magical place for that…

– yet having also to deal with the default mental programming I have had indelibly imprinted on my mind since birth, which has to be battled with every thought.

People here seem so open and free with their spiritual insights.
It’s great, and I’m in jealous admiration of that, because it’s not as easy to be so light for some.

I’m a deep thinker, so I can get pretty heavy, and may seem negative, or indignant – but really I’m just searching for truth like everyone else. I’m searching for ultimate fairness that I know must exist.

Reading some beautiful spiritual wisdom on a thread here, or a site there, I have in the back of mind, “Oh, I know what a christian would say about this…” which is really the negativity of what ‘my old-self’ would’ve said…

It hinders my development, because everything is not just absorbed in it’s purest form, it has to battle past the outdated filters in my mind.
Yes, it takes it’s rightful place in my mind eventually, but somehow the experience has been tainted.

So with such constant inner struggle I now battle depression, but I try to do it without medication.
I don’t want to just block things out as the solution. I want to solve it.

I have instinctive reactions against even the words ‘Jesus’, or ‘Bible’ or any other of those Christiany things, especially if it’s being presented as some kind of positive… because I know that ultimately christianity, the bible, etc. is anything but positive.
Sure it works fine for some, but it’s not a one size fits all.
Of course nothing is, that’s the point.

I know this is an extreme statement, but I think that all of the love that is promoted by deluded christians everywhere (yes, of which I was one) is a flawed kind of love.

It’s true foundation is Fear.

The love and ‘mercy’ chrisitans feel is only because they are so grateful for being ‘saved’, and feel they owe god so much
– but ‘saved’ from what?

I call this “One-eyed Christianity”.

Most evangelical types only pay attention to the fluffy, lovey parts of the bible and ignore the hellfire and damnation parts.
That’s understandable, it works for them and they’re happy – great – who can be against that?
Not me.

I would never criticise their chosen way of life – If only they weren’t charged by their holy book with spreading such fear based philosophy to others

(I can’t stand the thought of some innocent person, especially a growing child, being hooked into the burden of guilt and fear I experienced in christianity when I know I have the power to explode those myths).

Ultimately, there is an absolute dark side to the bible and that is, as most people know, Hell, and the God who invented it.
Eternal, with no escape.

I finally woke up to the fact that even if such a thing is real, I still am duty bound to reject the concept on principle, and I can not worship a god who sustains such a thing.
Not when there are so many better alternatives for eternity, that a truly omnipotent, loving, merciful god could have set up - my favourite example being Reincarnation (even ignoring which system is true or not, just the concept of reincarnation is better than the concept of eternal hell – and if all knowing god was in heaven deciding how best to save all his beloved creations then why the hell would he settle for eternal hell…?)

Even the love and charity shown by christianity to others is really because they are commanded by the bible.
If the bible commands them to be hateful then they are hateful too. That is evident throughout history.
Gays know it, people wanting the benefits of stem cell research knew it, and so on…

If individual christians stay in such things as their own gratitude and love for their god then they will experience the benefits of those, for sure, but really, for someone who is a deep thinker, a deep questioner like myself, then it will inevitably be seen that such love is Counterfeit.

A counterfeit can be spent like the real thing, but is ultimately nothing.

I see christianity now for what it is - a tool of control, as dark as any the Illuminati has ever created.

Not just controlling lives but destroying the sanity of those who can’t simply have ‘faith’ in it’s vengeful brooding god, but are yet indoctrinated with it’s dogma.
It’s called Cognitive Dissonance, and it’s insanity, schizophrenia, you name it.

Talk about MK-Ultra,
Christianity is the greatest mass mind manipulation tool in history – it turns one’s own mind into an enemy – as if your own natural thoughts and instincts are the malevolent whispers of a slavering daemon.

That the only escape is to turn to that other imaginary fiend – Jesus – bow, beg, humble yourself, humiliate yourself, prove your submission and admit your powerlessness and worthlessness – and he will save you (or else).

There is no horror movie that has anything worse than the supernatural horrors born out of the bible.

There is no humiliation more soul destroying than to be told you are worthless and then forced to agree.
It’s the same level of horror you read about in Illuminati mind control stories, like Svali, etc.

I’m sorry to forum posters who have felt my opposition personally.
I get suspicious of those who are proud to be christian, because I know the insidious way christianity instructs it’s followers to spread the ‘good news’.

Really it is a Virus, immune to logic, befriending and attaching to any target in reach, insinuating into any group by any means, then gradually attempting to morph the target into it’s likeness.

It’s ignorant followers don’t even see anything dark in what they are doing – they may even feel genuine compassion for those they are trying to ‘save’ – yet they can’t see that, “Why should we need saving?”

What kind of god are they serving that would demand worship or cast you into eternal torture, just for the crime of being born?!

"This book filled the darkness with ghouls and ghosts, and the bodies of men and women with devils. This book polluted the souls of men with the infamous dogma of eternal pain. This book made credulity the greatest of virtues, and investigation the greatest of crimes. This book filled nations with hermits, monks and nuns - with the pious and the useless. This book placed the ignorant and unclean saint above the philosopher and philanthropist. This book taught man to despise the joys of this life, that he might be happy in another - to waste this world for the sake of the next.
I attack this book because it is the enemy of human liberty - the greatest obstruction across the highway of human progress.
Let me ask the ministers one question: How can you be wicked enough to defend this book?"

- R. G. Ingersoll, from 'About the Holy Bible'.

I still find myself breathing heavily, if not in tears, after reading that quote, because it hits so close to my experience, and I’m sure that of many others.

I find George Carlin’s take a helpful relief though, and hilarious:
Religion is Bullsh*t

Hebrews 9:22
“There can be no forgiveness without bloodshed.”
Hmmm, yeah, I disgree on that one.

I have one last take on christianity:

At one point I started to wonder, what if chrisitanity is all a test, but not the one presented by the bible?

If you were God, eternal, unchangeable, invincible, none could harm you even if they tried, and then deciding who would be your eternal companions in heaven… who would you respect more?

- Those who cower at your displays of aggression and bloodshed and kiss your feet and praise you for it?

- or those who see the brutality, the ego, the delusion and senselessness – and have the courage to stand against it, stand up to proclaim from their heart that there must be a better way.
To not surrender their sovereign soul to bully tactics.
To live true freedom, rather than become yet another humiliated servant of a god obsessed with blood and death...

Maybe those are the kind more worthy?

To anyone in a similar situation to mine I can recommend these sites:
Exchristian.net
- Most of the Ex-C’s there are happily materialist atheist’s, defensively so (as christian trolls soon find out), but really very nice.
The ex-timonies there give good insight into what it’s like to be in christianity to those freer souls who’ve never grown up in it's insidious grasp.

I’m not a materialist atheist myself, but reading those arguments keeps me honest.

That’s why I am so impressed with this next site:
Rational Spirituality
“Evidence not Faith”…
Not new-agey, but with the best big-picture evidence for things like reincarnation, etc.

Anyway,
enough for now.

Thanks for reading if you made it all the way through.

Zeddo · 12-14-2009, 09:40 AM

Hi there 100th Monkey

Brilliant post, I felt every word as I share so much of what you are saying. I will save a reply worthy of this post for later but want to share a song that I would normally have posted in "A musical Interlude"/ Sit back, relax and enjoy. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbZn_Z5s-yA

LL&P

Zeddo

beren · 12-14-2009, 01:27 PM

What kind of god are they serving that would demand worship or cast you into eternal torture, just for the crime of being born?!

"This book filled the darkness with ghouls and ghosts, and the bodies of men and women with devils. This book polluted the souls of men with the infamous dogma of eternal pain. This book made credulity the greatest of virtues, and investigation the greatest of crimes. This book filled nations with hermits, monks and nuns - with the pious and the useless. This book placed the ignorant and unclean saint above the philosopher and philanthropist. This book taught man to despise the joys of this life, that he might be happy in another - to waste this world for the sake of the next.
I attack this book because it is the enemy of human liberty - the greatest obstruction across the highway of human progress.
Let me ask the ministers one question: How can you be wicked enough to defend this book?"

- R. G. Ingersoll, from 'About the Holy Bible'.

Hello, I copied this I here ´s my responce.

I understand your post , I can sympathesize with you since I have been through all that you wrote, until I relized that words spoken by Jesus and also you can find them by Paul in Romans.

I will say them on my way, namely many, many people who think, claim and are proud of being Christians are as far of Christianity as light is far from darkness.

Actually the worship Satan and 99.9% are not aware of that.

Bible is the wrod of God and it is not a religion.
God did not made a religion, man did.

God does not need a religion, does not need any church or type or worshiping on this planet.

He as Creator of everything does not need anything. He is self sufficient. But he loves, and that iswhy he wishes his children to learn about him and to be as him.
It is a path. It is not a religion, again MAN turned that into religion.
Why?
Control of masses and their time, weatlh and souls.
The perfect way of doing that is religion,especially cloaked as being of God and his son Jesus Christ.

That way people will not suspect the real reason behind.

God warned us to that.

It is all over in his word, stories about that.
Jesus was also many times very controversial, why?
To shed off non thinking people of following him and using his help for their pleasure, selfish things such as following him to be fed and nurtured with nice stories(by their opinion). He kicked them off.

No one can cheat God. But people do try that. They thing by saying they are Christian they are one with God.
Wrong.
Jesus also said when he returns ,will hefind faith on earth, meaning people who are true.

It is not an easy thing being honest and genuine but it is the only ways towards knowing Creator and his wisdom and whatever he do.

Also Jews hated and killed Jesus because he actually enlighted their darkness of lies power freaks and utter controll. They claimed that they worshipped God , but they were actually Satan worshipers. They borrowed their ideas from Babylon and placed it in Talmud. That is what they did.

Also Constantine did the perfect thing for him but Chrisians who accepted what he proposed actually sold their souls to this world.

Utter control in the name of Jesus is the most powerful thing doen in this world so far to deceive people.

Jesus Christ and his own words are writen in the Bible. They are sheer and crystal clear.Why do people turn them around? They wish so because of their lack of honesty and fairness. They avoid the truth as it is so the sugar coat it for their own liking.

Sure you can do that but that will not change truth and you will be exposed a liar.
That is exactly the thing reliogion did and they still do.

They are utter corrupt.
Jesus said who has eye to see- let them see, who has ear to hear- let them hear.
No more no less.

Why should he or anyone else try their best to reylly explain people some things when they do not wish that, when they like lies?
Let them live their lie, that was their choice. But every choice has its repercissions.

Many will fall in the future when thy realize that instead they followed Christ , they followed a lie. When Christ comes he will judge. Not we , not religions not clergy, not people.
He will, and no one can fool him.

The one who started all this lie eons ago , will be destroyed.
I do not wish that for any human, I am sure you do not wish that too.

If you wish I will sen you on PM my reasoning on all your troubles since I had it exactly like you my friend.

Exactly.

But Christ showed me the way, out of this world´s reasoning. The true way.
And it is up to me will I be genuine, honest, good person, wise, truth lover, a man, or I will be the total oposite.

I wish to be a man an image of Creator in all of his splendor.

Love and blessings,

Beren

P.S.

Sorry for typping mishaps...

100thmonkey · 12-14-2009, 02:06 PM

Thanks Zeddo, I did enjoy that clip.
I actually also saw it performed on Letterman recently.

Beren, I appreciate your intent and you're right in a way.
I know there are disputes between what Constantine intended and what Jesus may have intended.
The 'real' Jesus may well have been a wise man, but the closest we have to his original wisdom teachings is in the Gospel of Thomas, which was barred from the bible as it was 'too Gnostic'.
'Jesus' may well have been a gnostic himself then.
Who knows really?
Funnily enough another Thomas, - Jefferson, also created his own version of the gospel by literally cutting out with scissors all the supernatural elements from the four existing gospels.
Interestingly, what he was left with was surprisingly similar to the old Gospel of Thomas.

Yet, basically, if whatever 'true' christianity your proposing boils down to something that includes an eternal hell, or similar fate, I'm just not into it.

beren · 12-14-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100thmonkey

Thanks Zeddo, I did enjoy that clip.
I actually also saw it performed on Letterman recently.

Beren, I appreciate your intent and you're right in a way.
I know there are disputes between what Constantine intended and what Jesus may have intended.
The 'real' Jesus may well have been a wise man, but the closest we have to his original wisdom teachings is in the Gospel of Thomas, which was barred from the bible as it was 'too Gnostic'.
'Jesus' may well have been a gnostic himself then.
Who knows really?

Yet, basically, if whatever 'true' christianity your proposing boils down to something that includes an eternal hell, or similar fate, I'm just not into it.

I am not proposing hell, that ´s for sure!
If you read the context of hell when spoken in Bible you will not see Hell as it is today spoken. Hell is borrowed idea from pagan cults and mostly from Babylon pantheist religions.

When you cross reference Bible you will not find that God made hell or that he tortures people there. Hell does not exist.
It exist in fear based minds of many people.

When Bible said that someone goes to hell or gehenna or similar it simply means that that person stops existing.

It happened of many mistranslations deliberately placed there by Vatican in order to lead astray people from truth.

People ,often do not think, they are on autopilot in their life and hence they do not notice when slight change is there. That slight change eventually leads to bonds of slavery and fear which was not God´s intentions at all.

Jesus said know the truth and it will set you free.
Free from slavery.
That is why they killed him because people saw that what they were was in prison, invisible but terrible prison and they wanted out! Religious leaders freaked out of loosing controll of the grid and they killed him.

That was happening all the way and is happening today whenever a person wishes the real truth.

On the hell again;
Creator is the most powerful in the whole universe since he created it.
Why would he need to put somebody in a place where they will forever be tormented?
Why he would enjoy that, when he can simply erase the person without any pain?

Satan ,on the other hand IS enjoying that since he created hell idea and passed it on ignorants.

Also where is written in revelation that Satan will be put in hell and forever tormented is just a symbol that he will be utterly destroyed without a chance to live again, he who brought pain and death and deceit into universe. Example of his final defeat will be a banner for all to see and learn from it.

THE eXchanger · 12-14-2009, 02:40 PM

what a brilliant story,
thank you for sharing it

love/susan
the eXchanger

100thmonkey · 12-15-2009, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXchanger

what a brilliant story,
thank you for sharing it

love/susan
the eXchanger

Thanks susan.
We must have made a connection once before too. I've been away from the forum since the pay-subscription thing, but now I'm back I think you're the only one on my friend list who is still active.

Beren,
yes that sounds like the Mormon perspective I think...?
It's not something that would get me back in to christianity though. If there's no hell then there's no need to be saved, so no need for Jesus 'sacrifice'.
My KJV only brother has argued with Mormon's and found their arguments convincing, but has still stated to me that if he didn't believe in hell he'd simply commit suicide and get this struggle of life over with...

Yet to me, Annihiliation is still a degrading concept, and something that most people would find offensive (without mental conditioning).

It's part of the, "He is the potter, we are the clay", basis of christianity - which makes human souls, and human experience, no more valuable than dirt, and God no more than an ethnic-cleansing tyrant.

(Which is also based on the Egyptian creator god Khnum, who created men from the mud of the Nile and fashioned them on his potter's wheel before breathing the breath of life into them... sound familiar?)

Being an eternal soul, one who is as capable of saying 'I AM' as any other being in the universe, I value my experience higher than that - so have sought higher explanations for existence than mere holy hostage.

I've already found evidence for reincarnation (check my sig), which is now grounds for all manner of other research into our existence.

So for me the bible is really irrelevant, except as a 'version' of history/mythology, and modern research is constantly proving it wrong in that field too.

Basically I think we are all a part of God.

She spun us off from herself, into the ignorance of flesh, in order to experience what her all-knowing mind couldn't.

Ignorance breeds suffering.

Suffering breeds questioning.

Questioning leads to answers.

Answers lead to awareness.

Awareness leads to returning to oneness with the Creator.
(Hey, we need a Yoda smiley here.)

So, we are spiritual yo-yo's who's purpose is simply to experience. Only flung down with the knowledge we will inevitably return - with great tales of wonder from our journey.

The one who spun us down would gain no benefit from cutting off our string before we came back.

beren · 12-15-2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100thmonkey

Thanks susan.
We must have made a connection once before too. I've been away from the forum since the pay-subscription thing, but now I'm back I think you're the only one on my friend list who is still active.

Beren,
yes that sounds like the Mormon perspective I think...?
It's not something that would get me back in to christianity though. If there's no hell then there's no need to be saved, so no need for Jesus 'sacrifice'.
My KJV only brother has argued with Mormon's and found their arguments convincing, but has still stated to me that if he didn't believe in hell he'd simply commit suicide and get this struggle of life over with...

Yet to me, Annihiliation is still a degrading concept, and something that most people would find offensive (without mental conditioning).

It's part of the, "He is the potter, we are the clay", basis of christianity - which makes human souls, and human experience, no more valuable than dirt, and God no more than an ethnic-cleansing tyrant.

(Which is also based on the Egyptian creator god Khnum, who created men from the mud of the Nile and fashioned them on his potter's wheel before breathing the breath of life into them... sound familiar?)

Being an eternal soul, one who is as capable of saying 'I AM' as any other being in the universe, I value my experience higher than that - so have sought higher explanations for existence than mere holy hostage.

I've already found evidence for reincarnation (check my sig), which is now grounds for all manner of other research into our existence.

So for me the bible is really irrelevant, except as a 'version' of history/mythology, and modern research is constantly proving it wrong in that field too.

Basically I think we are all a part of God.

She spun us off from herself, into the ignorance of flesh, in order to experience what her all-knowing mind couldn't.

Ignorance breeds suffering.

Suffering breeds questioning.

Questioning leads to answers.

Answers lead to awareness.

Awareness leads to returning to oneness with the Creator.
(Hey, we need a Yoda smiley here.)

So, we are spiritual yo-yo's who's purpose is simply to experience. Only flung down with the knowledge we will inevitably return - with great tales of wonder from our journey.

The one who spun us down would gain no benefit from cutting off our string before we came back.

I am not familiar with Mormons. But anyways I respect your writing above.
I do not agree with you but everyone has a free will to live, explore and do things.
After all ,everything that we know today is just partial.

Céline · 12-15-2009, 03:46 PM

Your story was truly passionate and very enlightening...thank you for sharing with us.

my two cents...

Supposedly..Being the bearer of....original sin...

i find myself completely rejecting any written word about God..

Life...is NEVER a sin....Love is NEVER wrong....

All written word about God seems unbalanced to me...

no caste · 12-15-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Céline

Supposedly..Being the bearer of....original sin...
i find myself completely rejecting any written word about God..
Life...is NEVER a sin....

Céline - EVE WAS FRAMED

That was the only thing I ever spray painted (graffiti!) in the day, with a friend from Montreal.

Damn, it felt good

It ran about 50 feet with 4 foot letters - 2 full cans.

THE eXchanger · 12-16-2009, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no caste

Céline - EVE WAS FRAMED

.

nope, she had ABLE with adam
and, Cain, with CAN (from venus)
WHY DO YOU THINK HE WAS NAMED CA-i-N
thus enter, the serpertine dna strand to earth
(that ironically, isn't always evil)
there is a lot to learn from the 9th density venusian masters of light
(there temples, still eXist)
except NOT to 3D eyes
(unable to see them) !!!
it is quite a story, to be told !!!

New Age Messiah · 12-16-2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no caste

Céline - EVE WAS FRAMED

http://www.wicca-spirituality.com/goddess-symbols.html

The apple has long been associated with the worship of the Goddess.

Note the story of Eve and the Serpent (one of the eternal Goddess symbols). When Eve ate the apple, she was taking in Divine wisdom - the knowledge that she is Divine. Thus she would become immortal.

The apple seems to have always been associated with death and eternal life.

Walker writes,

"Graves [in Greek Myths, vol. 2] points out that the whole story of Eve, Adam, and the serpent in the tree was deliberately misinterpreted from icons showing the Great Goddess offering life to her worshipper, in the form of an apple, with the tree and its serpent [the sacred guardian] in the background." (Barbara Walker, The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, p 49.)

Naturally a jealous God - who wants to be the only god - would outlaw such knowledge of one's divinity! But since it is Truth, He couldn't keep it hidden forever. So when it came out, He decided to keep us so busy with survival and pain that we wouldn't have time to notice our divinity.

It worked pretty well!

Luckily the Goddess is more compassionate, and not threatened by others being empowered. She gave us plenty of hints along the way, to remember.

One of these is the apple. Cut in half, its seed bed - the most potent part of the fruit - reveals the sacred 5-pointed star within the circle of apple skin.

This is the pentacle - the expression of One Divinity as all facets of the world.

Unified Serenity · 12-17-2009, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Age Messiah

http://www.wicca-spirituality.com/goddess-symbols.html

The apple has long been associated with the worship of the Goddess.

Note the story of Eve and the Serpent (one of the eternal Goddess symbols). When Eve ate the apple, she was taking in Divine wisdom - the knowledge that she is Divine. Thus she would become immortal.

The apple seems to have always been associated with death and eternal life.

Walker writes,

"Graves [in Greek Myths, vol. 2] points out that the whole story of Eve, Adam, and the serpent in the tree was deliberately misinterpreted from icons showing the Great Goddess offering life to her worshipper, in the form of an apple, with the tree and its serpent [the sacred guardian] in the background." (Barbara Walker, The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, p 49.)

Naturally a jealous God - who wants to be the only god - would outlaw such knowledge of one's divinity! But since it is Truth, He couldn't keep it hidden forever. So when it came out, He decided to keep us so busy with survival and pain that we wouldn't have time to notice our divinity.

It worked pretty well!

Luckily the Goddess is more compassionate, and not threatened by others being empowered. She gave us plenty of hints along the way, to remember.

One of these is the apple. Cut in half, its seed bed - the most potent part of the fruit - reveals the sacred 5-pointed star within the circle of apple skin.

This is the pentacle - the expression of One Divinity as all facets of the world.

No where in the bible does it say anything about Eve eating an apple. More than likely the fruit if it was 3d was a fig, after all they put on fig leaves, but that's just a guess.

I frankly believe Eve had sex with Lucifer and got pregnant with Cain who represents his father. Eve gave birth to twins of two different fathers. Abel who was Adam's son and Cain who was Lucifer's son. Jesus said as much when he accused the Kenites who got into the Pharisees who claimed to be of Judah (Jews) and were not. Jesus said they were of their father the devil. He said "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." They were Kenites, they fulfill the negative side of prophecy (See Isaiah 53) and they are protected and all will be fulfilled. We have our choices and spiritual fruit to bear. We choose our paths ultimately and bear the responsibility of our choices. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will understand my words.

New Age Messiah · 12-17-2009, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unified Serenity

No where in the bible does it say anything about Eve eating an apple. More than likely the fruit if it was 3d was a fig, after all they put on fig leaves, but that's just a guess.

I frankly believe Eve had sex with Lucifer and got pregnant with Cain who represents his father.

From Wikipedia:

"Similar trees appear in other religions. The same story with male, female, serpent and tree can be found - 22 centuries before the version of the story we know from the Bible - depicted on a mesopotamian cylinder seal, so the later versions are - more than probable - copies of the original."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of..._good_and_evil

Spiritual truth does not require any book whatsoever. Certan authors give someone a great start to recognizing Spirit within their soul, but Spiritual truth is utterly totally non-cognitive, i.e. animals and small children know spiritual truth.

Knowing certain facts or names or doctrines or commands is worthless, spiritually.

I think studying ancient books is a complete waste of time, spiritually.

Unified Serenity · 12-17-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Age Messiah

From Wikipedia:

"Similar trees appear in other religions. The same story with male, female, serpent and tree can be found - 22 centuries before the version of the story we know from the Bible - depicted on a mesopotamian cylinder seal, so the later versions are - more than probable - copies of the original."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of..._good_and_evil

Spiritual truth does not require any book whatsoever. Certan authors give someone a great start to recognizing Spirit within their soul, but Spiritual truth is utterly totally non-cognitive, i.e. animals and small children know spiritual truth.

Knowing certain facts or names or doctrines or commands is worthless, spiritually.

I think studying ancient books is a complete waste of time, spiritually.

I respect your right to be ignorant of what ancient people learned, experienced, and believed. God has spoken through many voices throughout history and I rather enjoy digging up the nuggets of truth. Thanks for sharing.

US

New Age Messiah · 12-17-2009, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unified Serenity

I respect your right to be ignorant of what ancient people learned, experienced, and believed. God has spoken through many voices throughout history and I rather enjoy digging up the nuggets of truth. Thanks for sharing.US

That's COGNITIVE learning. Spiritual learning is something ENTIRELY different.

The narrow path, if you will, that FEW will find. And certainly MANY have found the RELIGIOUS path.

RedeZra · 12-17-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Age Messiah

Spiritual learning is something ENTIRELY different.

you know there are too

some rather bad elements in the spiritual worlds

but if you can spot the difference

between an angel and an apparent angel

then all power to you

Unified Serenity · 12-18-2009, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Age Messiah

That's COGNITIVE learning. Spiritual learning is something ENTIRELY different.

The narrow path, if you will, that FEW will find. And certainly MANY have found the RELIGIOUS path.

You don't know anything about me, how I apply what I learn and experience. Too each their own.

US

New Age Messiah · 12-18-2009, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unified Serenity

You don't know anything about me, how I apply what I learn and experience. Too each their own.

US

Cognitive learning is words and thoughts.

Words and thoughts are in books and stories and the mind.

Spiritual learning is non-cognitive, no stories, no thoughts, no emotions.

It's nothing personal.

carriblu · 12-18-2009, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Age Messiah

Cognitive learning is words and thoughts.

Words and thoughts are in books and stories and the mind.

Spiritual learning is non-cognitive, no stories, no thoughts, no emotions.

It's nothing personal.

I agree with this. i am so interested in the teachings of buddha and christ and others and really take them to heart, but nothing they say will ever teach me anything. what i take away from great people like that is reinforcement that there is a bigger picture here, that other people have gone after spiritual greatness and succeeded, and a feeling that i'm not alone on the journey.

Gnosis5 · 12-18-2009, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Age Messiah

Cognitive learning is words and thoughts.

Words and thoughts are in books and stories and the mind.

Spiritual learning is non-cognitive, no stories, no thoughts, no emotions.

It's nothing personal.

Thanks for putting that into words. In my clearing sessions I see imagery and sometimes a word or phrase will come as an answer to my practitioner's question. The imagery is not necessarily what is really there, merely how I am seeing it. Sometimes I see only a metaphor. I have to put my normal intellect somewhat at bay if I wish to get the full benefit of clearing.

It is a different world, but nonetheless just as valid a world as the world of intellect. Zen practices help one "kill" the compulsion to use the mind for EVERYTHING.

Gnosis

New Age Messiah · 12-18-2009, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnosis5

It is a different world, but nonetheless just as valid a world as the world of intellect. Zen practices help one "kill" the compulsion to use the mind for EVERYTHING.
Gnosis

To purify the soul you have to "be" a lot of energies that your mind could never process as thoughts or reasoning or words.

That's the point of spirituality is to purify past negative energies and be the immaculate presence that an innocent child also is...

You learn that your mind does not sit on top of you and own you or contain you.

The mind essentially has to get below, underneath, out of the way, it's like soul scuba diving.

Ego is like a periscope on a submarine...

Gnosis5 · 12-18-2009, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Age Messiah

To purify the soul you have to "be" a lot of energies that your mind could never process as thoughts or reasoning or words.

That's the point of spirituality is to purify past negative energies and be the immaculate presence that an innocent child also is...

You learn that your mind does not sit on top of you and own you or contain you.

The mind essentially has to get below, underneath, out of the way, it's like soul scuba diving.

Ego is like a periscope on a submarine...

Interesting. My radionics reading shows that "Topography of Consciousness" is a highly charged chain of incidents in my case. I plan to clear off the negative charge and fixed polarities after I finish running the chain of "Key-In Mechanism" negative incidents. I hope that is understandable the way I worded it.

Gnosis

RedeZra · 12-18-2009, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnosis5

My radionics reading shows that "Topography of Consciousness" is a highly charged chain of incidents in my case. I plan to clear off the negative charge and fixed polarities after I finish running the chain of "Key-In Mechanism" negative incidents. I hope that is understandable the way I worded it.

perfectly

New Age Messiah · 12-18-2009, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnosis5

Interesting. My radionics reading shows that "Topography of Consciousness" is a highly charged chain of incidents in my case. I plan to clear off the negative charge and fixed polarities after I finish running the chain of "Key-In Mechanism" negative incidents. I hope that is understandable the way I worded it.Gnosis

Yeah, fixed polarities, yep. Been there.

Here's the thing, all the great dramas and mythical battles are right in every person's soul, to be had and enjoyed.

The richness of the infinite mystery... is in every soul

12-14-2009, 08:51 AM	#1
100thmonkey Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Newcastle, Oz Posts: 177	Ex-Christian I know astrologically now is a good time to offload long held ‘story’. This is a defining part of who I am, and, even if nobody reads it, at least I’ve put it out there - and I haven’t found a better spiritual community to do this than Avalon, even of those sites I will link to at the end… I’m interested in other people’s stories on this subject too, of those who were once christian but have since left. Anyway, here’s the basics of my spiritual journey… I used to believe the bible was the inerrant word of god, that those who thought there were contradictions in it just hadn’t had it explained properly. I used to read 'Creation' magazine and the 'Answers in Genesis' people had me fooled for a long while, thinking I was intelligent and scientific in my beliefs about the 6 day Creation, not gullible like those others who were swayed by ‘evil-ution’… I knew there was one key to dismantling the bible though, but that it would never be found, because it didn’t exist... Yet I had no fear of facing any argument against the bible, because the bible was God’s word, and, "If God is for you who can be against you?" I had told myself that if I ever found any true contradictions in the bible then that would be grounds to dismiss the whole thing – because flaws are human, and the bible is the Word of God – God doesn’t make mistakes… So if there were flaws then that would make the bible just another human authored document, no more valid than any other… Of course I was bold in that belief because I knew it was impossible – and I was proud of it. I was never happy in my belief though, I just thought there was no other truth, and I didn’t want to end up in hell for eternity, so I had to submit. Christianity was a fit to my insular personality too, and going through adolescence it kept me isolated from ‘the world’ – soemthing I’m still having to reprogram myself from, with counselling. The best way to avoid sex, drugs and drink was to just cut myself off from everyone. Be in the world but not of it. Yet at the same time the basic indoctrinations made me feel unworthy to hang around with other christians of my age, because I knew my secret ‘shame’. I knew I was a guilty, worthless, disobedient, piece of filth, fit to burn in hell forever, if I died right then. Why? …because I couldn’t help thinking about girls. Sex! I was evil! I tried to not think about it, but of course that is impossible. Asking a teenage boy to not think about girls is like asking a hungry man not to think about food. Can we resist our natural desire to breathe? or eat? No, it’s inbuilt… Yet here is the diabolical genius of religion. Find something people can’t do without and bring it under the authority of God. So sex is forbidden outside of marriage – and who has the authority to marry people? The church… (at least, back in the day…) It doesn’t seem like much, except if there’s nothing else in your life. A newsletter I subscribe to had this insightful quote: Carl Jung pointed out that the principal product of religion is guilt and despair. Despair over this life, despair over our thoughts, despair over our desires, despair over our actions. Dr. Jung states that as we dwell on this despair we drive ourselves into repression in an effort to control our thoughts and desires. This repression then leads to depression, which fosters disease. It was a disease of the mind. When the Roman Empire was threatened with anarchy and being overtaken by barbarians they realised they couldn’t maintain their power over people by force of arms any more – they needed to preserve their power more ingeniously. So Constantine united all the disparate religions under the banner of Christianity – and the Roman Empire eventually became the Roman Church. So that by the time the Barbarians overwhelmed the physical Roman Empire, those Barbarians themselves were already being christianised… Rome’s power was still in place, the same elite bloodlines as Popes rather than Emperor’s. The pantheon of god’s now the Saints. Now the people would follow Rome's authority by their own programmed guilt - Fear of God rather than fear of man… An in-built Centurion. Their own minds turned against them as a means of remote control. But I didn’t figure that out until later. Back to the story… One day I was curious as to what arguments the Jews had for rejecting Jesus, after all, isn’t he the fulfilment of their bible too…? So I boldly stumbled onto the internet looking for answers. I found a lot of info from Jewish websites that was anti-christian, especially pointing out flaws and contradictions in the gospel story. “Ha, let me check that out… you just need to … Hmmm, really? It does say that in the bible? Whoah!” It seemed that imposible key I spoke of really did exist! I wasn’t about to turn Jewish, but nevertheless it was a real ‘Matrix moment’. That waking up to an alien reality. Discovering the whole world, and life as you’ve known it, is so vastly different than what you’ve been indoctrinated to believe since the day you were born – and in rapid succession all your beliefs are shattered. It was also absolutley liberating, exciting, mind blowing, yet with the dawning in my mind of how I’d lived my life so, so, wrongly. It was horrific to finally ‘get’ the trap I’d been in, but joyous to realise the freedom now open to me. I still had fears about daemons and deception though, what if I was being led astray by a daemon desperate to claim my soul? Yet I had also begun reading magazines like Nexus and New Dawn. In one issue of Nexus was an article about the ‘real matrix’ by some dude called David Wilcock… Yesss! I was drawn to his website and intrigued. I saw he had online books to read, “The Shift of the Ages”, but hmmm, it’s got chanelled material… How does he prove that’s not just daemons feeding the author lines? I read it anyway – warily, seeking explanation. I was impressed with the fact that one of the girls who channeled the Law of One was a christian and, as the bible says to do, ‘tested the spirits’ before a session. Even daemons can’t resist the power of the name of Jesus, so I believed, yet here they were happily continuing their sessions after such a test… Hmmm, wow… I was just as interested in the science though. Through David’s brilliant explanations and ingenious assembly of evidence I started to see a wider spectrum of spirituality, that it’s not just God vs Devil, Good vs Evil, Daemons vs Angels, Black vs White, “You’re either with us or against us!” …but that there are many densities, many levels and dimensions. That spirtual entities can also be as honest or as deceptive as humans. There is no daemon more evil than what a human is capable of. There is no angel more merciful than what a human is capable of. We, humans and spirits, are all just the same, just some have bodies, some don’t. It’s our level of awareness that makes the real difference. That, most of all, I could be scientifically confident - that there really is no such thing as an eternal Hell! That is liberation folks. I’m laughing tears of joy right now just thinking of those moments. I’ve never felt so spiritually alive and free than reading those books. Thankyou David, I will remember it forever. Anwyay, despite my attempts to share this with my christian family, thinking they were as honest as me and if shown the light would come with me on a joyous journey of freedom… I was threatened with being cut off, that I was speaking with the tongues of daemons(!) and trying to drag my own family to hell! That my father would cease all communication with me, because my words were really that of the devil, who he is duty bound to reject… If I hadn’t forced further communication with them, maybe I really would be cut off by now? I do get along with my family - by simply not mentioning religion, unless we all want to get into a yelling match (it may start out polite and such, but, inevitably…) It pains me though, because I know they suffer. My mother even in tears many times - because they truly believe their son is destined for an eternity in a lake of fire. I hate that the mind of such a loving person has been tortured that way. I wish they could understand what I do. Somehow they don’t question how unfair and ridiculous hell is (I don’t even understand how I never did either. I guess I was more caught up in defending such things as part of the larger gospel framework than actually picking it apart), but… If I am deceived, at least I am honestly deceived. I don’t believe I deserve punishment for that. ...and shouldn’t any ‘punishment’ go to the deceiver, not the honestly deceived? In other words, bible god’s sense of justice is seriously skewed. To the point I cannot accept it – even if it turns out to be the horrific truth. The all-knowing one will just have to listen to my martyred screams of protest in hell for eternity… Of course that horrible scenario is absurd… I am earnest in my spiritual quest. I am open to others and want to understand everything. Yet still I struggle. There are still issues of personal negativity for me to deal with – I want to be open about it though. Maybe there are similar minds on this forum? My own mind is in two places: - absorbing, processing, claiming and sharing all the knowledge and higher spiritual wisdom that is now open to me - and this Camelot/Avalon community is the most magical place for that… – yet having also to deal with the default mental programming I have had indelibly imprinted on my mind since birth, which has to be battled with every thought. People here seem so open and free with their spiritual insights. It’s great, and I’m in jealous admiration of that, because it’s not as easy to be so light for some. I’m a deep thinker, so I can get pretty heavy, and may seem negative, or indignant – but really I’m just searching for truth like everyone else. I’m searching for ultimate fairness that I know must exist. Reading some beautiful spiritual wisdom on a thread here, or a site there, I have in the back of mind, “Oh, I know what a christian would say about this…” which is really the negativity of what ‘my old-self’ would’ve said… It hinders my development, because everything is not just absorbed in it’s purest form, it has to battle past the outdated filters in my mind. Yes, it takes it’s rightful place in my mind eventually, but somehow the experience has been tainted. So with such constant inner struggle I now battle depression, but I try to do it without medication. I don’t want to just block things out as the solution. I want to solve it. I have instinctive reactions against even the words ‘Jesus’, or ‘Bible’ or any other of those Christiany things, especially if it’s being presented as some kind of positive… because I know that ultimately christianity, the bible, etc. is anything but positive. Sure it works fine for some, but it’s not a one size fits all. Of course nothing is, that’s the point. I know this is an extreme statement, but I think that all of the love that is promoted by deluded christians everywhere (yes, of which I was one) is a flawed kind of love. It’s true foundation is Fear. The love and ‘mercy’ chrisitans feel is only because they are so grateful for being ‘saved’, and feel they owe god so much – but ‘saved’ from what? I call this “One-eyed Christianity”. Most evangelical types only pay attention to the fluffy, lovey parts of the bible and ignore the hellfire and damnation parts. That’s understandable, it works for them and they’re happy – great – who can be against that? Not me. I would never criticise their chosen way of life – If only they weren’t charged by their holy book with spreading such fear based philosophy to others (I can’t stand the thought of some innocent person, especially a growing child, being hooked into the burden of guilt and fear I experienced in christianity when I know I have the power to explode those myths). Ultimately, there is an absolute dark side to the bible and that is, as most people know, Hell, and the God who invented it. Eternal, with no escape. I finally woke up to the fact that even if such a thing is real, I still am duty bound to reject the concept on principle, and I can not worship a god who sustains such a thing. Not when there are so many better alternatives for eternity, that a truly omnipotent, loving, merciful god could have set up - my favourite example being Reincarnation (even ignoring which system is true or not, just the concept of reincarnation is better than the concept of eternal hell – and if all knowing god was in heaven deciding how best to save all his beloved creations then why the hell would he settle for eternal hell…?) Even the love and charity shown by christianity to others is really because they are commanded by the bible. If the bible commands them to be hateful then they are hateful too. That is evident throughout history. Gays know it, people wanting the benefits of stem cell research knew it, and so on… If individual christians stay in such things as their own gratitude and love for their god then they will experience the benefits of those, for sure, but really, for someone who is a deep thinker, a deep questioner like myself, then it will inevitably be seen that such love is Counterfeit. A counterfeit can be spent like the real thing, but is ultimately nothing. I see christianity now for what it is - a tool of control, as dark as any the Illuminati has ever created. Not just controlling lives but destroying the sanity of those who can’t simply have ‘faith’ in it’s vengeful brooding god, but are yet indoctrinated with it’s dogma. It’s called Cognitive Dissonance, and it’s insanity, schizophrenia, you name it. Talk about MK-Ultra, Christianity is the greatest mass mind manipulation tool in history – it turns one’s own mind into an enemy – as if your own natural thoughts and instincts are the malevolent whispers of a slavering daemon. That the only escape is to turn to that other imaginary fiend – Jesus – bow, beg, humble yourself, humiliate yourself, prove your submission and admit your powerlessness and worthlessness – and he will save you (or else). There is no horror movie that has anything worse than the supernatural horrors born out of the bible. There is no humiliation more soul destroying than to be told you are worthless and then forced to agree. It’s the same level of horror you read about in Illuminati mind control stories, like Svali, etc. I’m sorry to forum posters who have felt my opposition personally. I get suspicious of those who are proud to be christian, because I know the insidious way christianity instructs it’s followers to spread the ‘good news’. Really it is a Virus, immune to logic, befriending and attaching to any target in reach, insinuating into any group by any means, then gradually attempting to morph the target into it’s likeness. It’s ignorant followers don’t even see anything dark in what they are doing – they may even feel genuine compassion for those they are trying to ‘save’ – yet they can’t see that, “Why should we need saving?” What kind of god are they serving that would demand worship or cast you into eternal torture, just for the crime of being born?! "This book filled the darkness with ghouls and ghosts, and the bodies of men and women with devils. This book polluted the souls of men with the infamous dogma of eternal pain. This book made credulity the greatest of virtues, and investigation the greatest of crimes. This book filled nations with hermits, monks and nuns - with the pious and the useless. This book placed the ignorant and unclean saint above the philosopher and philanthropist. This book taught man to despise the joys of this life, that he might be happy in another - to waste this world for the sake of the next. I attack this book because it is the enemy of human liberty - the greatest obstruction across the highway of human progress. Let me ask the ministers one question: How can you be wicked enough to defend this book?" - R. G. Ingersoll, from 'About the Holy Bible'. I still find myself breathing heavily, if not in tears, after reading that quote, because it hits so close to my experience, and I’m sure that of many others. I find George Carlin’s take a helpful relief though, and hilarious: *Religion is Bullsht Hebrews 9:22** “There can be no forgiveness without bloodshed.” Hmmm, yeah, I disgree on that one. I have one last take on christianity: At one point I started to wonder, what if chrisitanity is all a test, but not the one presented by the bible? If you were God, eternal, unchangeable, invincible, none could harm you even if they tried, and then deciding who would be your eternal companions in heaven… who would you respect more? - Those who cower at your displays of aggression and bloodshed and kiss your feet and praise you for it? - or those who see the brutality, the ego, the delusion and senselessness – and have the courage to stand against it, stand up to proclaim from their heart that there must be a better way. To not surrender their sovereign soul to bully tactics. To live true freedom, rather than become yet another humiliated servant of a god obsessed with blood and death... Maybe those are the kind more worthy? To anyone in a similar situation to mine I can recommend these sites: Exchristian.net - Most of the Ex-C’s there are happily materialist atheist’s, defensively so (as christian trolls soon find out), but really very nice. The ex-timonies there give good insight into what it’s like to be in christianity to those freer souls who’ve never grown up in it's insidious grasp. I’m not a materialist atheist myself, but reading those arguments keeps me honest. That’s why I am so impressed with this next site: Rational Spirituality “Evidence not Faith”… Not new-agey, but with the best big-picture evidence for things like reincarnation, etc. Anyway, enough for now. Thanks for reading if you made it all the way through.

12-14-2009, 09:40 AM	#2
Zeddo Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 694	Re: Ex-Christian Hi there 100th Monkey Brilliant post, I felt every word as I share so much of what you are saying. I will save a reply worthy of this post for later but want to share a song that I would normally have posted in "A musical Interlude"/ Sit back, relax and enjoy. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbZn_Z5s-yA LL&P Zeddo

12-14-2009, 01:27 PM	#3
beren Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Belgrade,Serbia Posts: 508	Re: Ex-Christian What kind of god are they serving that would demand worship or cast you into eternal torture, just for the crime of being born?! "This book filled the darkness with ghouls and ghosts, and the bodies of men and women with devils. This book polluted the souls of men with the infamous dogma of eternal pain. This book made credulity the greatest of virtues, and investigation the greatest of crimes. This book filled nations with hermits, monks and nuns - with the pious and the useless. This book placed the ignorant and unclean saint above the philosopher and philanthropist. This book taught man to despise the joys of this life, that he might be happy in another - to waste this world for the sake of the next. I attack this book because it is the enemy of human liberty - the greatest obstruction across the highway of human progress. Let me ask the ministers one question: How can you be wicked enough to defend this book?" - R. G. Ingersoll, from 'About the Holy Bible'. Hello, I copied this I here ´s my responce. I understand your post , I can sympathesize with you since I have been through all that you wrote, until I relized that words spoken by Jesus and also you can find them by Paul in Romans. I will say them on my way, namely many, many people who think, claim and are proud of being Christians are as far of Christianity as light is far from darkness. Actually the worship Satan and 99.9% are not aware of that. Bible is the wrod of God and it is not a religion. God did not made a religion, man did. God does not need a religion, does not need any church or type or worshiping on this planet. He as Creator of everything does not need anything. He is self sufficient. But he loves, and that iswhy he wishes his children to learn about him and to be as him. It is a path. It is not a religion, again MAN turned that into religion. Why? Control of masses and their time, weatlh and souls. The perfect way of doing that is religion,especially cloaked as being of God and his son Jesus Christ. That way people will not suspect the real reason behind. God warned us to that. It is all over in his word, stories about that. Jesus was also many times very controversial, why? To shed off non thinking people of following him and using his help for their pleasure, selfish things such as following him to be fed and nurtured with nice stories(by their opinion). He kicked them off. No one can cheat God. But people do try that. They thing by saying they are Christian they are one with God. Wrong. Jesus also said when he returns ,will hefind faith on earth, meaning people who are true. It is not an easy thing being honest and genuine but it is the only ways towards knowing Creator and his wisdom and whatever he do. Also Jews hated and killed Jesus because he actually enlighted their darkness of lies power freaks and utter controll. They claimed that they worshipped God , but they were actually Satan worshipers. They borrowed their ideas from Babylon and placed it in Talmud. That is what they did. Also Constantine did the perfect thing for him but Chrisians who accepted what he proposed actually sold their souls to this world. Utter control in the name of Jesus is the most powerful thing doen in this world so far to deceive people. Jesus Christ and his own words are writen in the Bible. They are sheer and crystal clear.Why do people turn them around? They wish so because of their lack of honesty and fairness. They avoid the truth as it is so the sugar coat it for their own liking. Sure you can do that but that will not change truth and you will be exposed a liar. That is exactly the thing reliogion did and they still do. They are utter corrupt. Jesus said who has eye to see- let them see, who has ear to hear- let them hear. No more no less. Why should he or anyone else try their best to reylly explain people some things when they do not wish that, when they like lies? Let them live their lie, that was their choice. But every choice has its repercissions. Many will fall in the future when thy realize that instead they followed Christ , they followed a lie. When Christ comes he will judge. Not we , not religions not clergy, not people. He will, and no one can fool him. The one who started all this lie eons ago , will be destroyed. I do not wish that for any human, I am sure you do not wish that too. If you wish I will sen you on PM my reasoning on all your troubles since I had it exactly like you my friend. Exactly. But Christ showed me the way, out of this world´s reasoning. The true way. And it is up to me will I be genuine, honest, good person, wise, truth lover, a man, or I will be the total oposite. I wish to be a man an image of Creator in all of his splendor. Love and blessings, Beren P.S. Sorry for typping mishaps...

12-14-2009, 02:06 PM	#4
100thmonkey Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Newcastle, Oz Posts: 177	Re: Ex-Christian Thanks Zeddo, I did enjoy that clip. I actually also saw it performed on Letterman recently. Beren, I appreciate your intent and you're right in a way. I know there are disputes between what Constantine intended and what Jesus may have intended. The 'real' Jesus may well have been a wise man, but the closest we have to his original wisdom teachings is in the Gospel of Thomas, which was barred from the bible as it was 'too Gnostic'. 'Jesus' may well have been a gnostic himself then. Who knows really? Funnily enough another Thomas, - Jefferson, also created his own version of the gospel by literally cutting out with scissors all the supernatural elements from the four existing gospels. Interestingly, what he was left with was surprisingly similar to the old Gospel of Thomas. Yet, basically, if whatever 'true' christianity your proposing boils down to something that includes an eternal hell, or similar fate, I'm just not into it.

12-14-2009, 02:40 PM	#6
THE eXchanger Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Spiritual eXplorer-Canada Posts: 4,915	Re: Ex-Christian what a brilliant story, thank you for sharing it love/susan the eXchanger

12-15-2009, 03:46 PM	#9
Céline Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1,285	Re: Ex-Christian Your story was truly passionate and very enlightening...thank you for sharing with us. my two cents... Supposedly..Being the bearer of....original sin... i find myself completely rejecting any written word about God.. Life...is NEVER a sin....Love is NEVER wrong.... All written word about God seems unbalanced to me...