The thread that goes against everything we want... *4 Reports* Simon

mikey · 09-25-2008, 07:19 AM

Hi people...i dont want to dwell on it too much but i found something thats irritated me somewhat. I stumbled on this thread the other day, posted on it, and whilst reflecting i am struggling to understand how or why it was started in the first place...i mean i know why it was started but it goes completely against everything we or i stand for and what i want or envision for a new ''world''. A world of peace and no suffering for anyone...
Is my vision too perfect do u think...is it impossible to attain such a level where all violence and/or intention of violence is not a choice... I sincerely hope not.
Heres the thread - http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3225

Can we please make an effort to not have any other threads like these which are so engulfed in negativity im almost embarrassed it was on this forum.

There are forums dedicated to this kind of stuff and i dont feel it is here if i can say that...please feel free to agree or disagree with me on this but i think this needed to be said.

Lets raise the level people...there is no path to peace, peace is the path

bananaman

MMe M · 09-25-2008, 08:31 AM

You can tell the starving people that are going to use whatever they posess to separate you from your families food stores that we all just need to love each other a little more and that im really not about violence. It may work.

But heres what im thinkin.

Its just a guess, but im thinkin looking down the business end of a .44 is going to be just a little more persuasive than that whole lovey you, peace and good vibes dude comin your way brain wave. Not to mention we may just need to hunt to survive. Peace iznt gonna fill yer belly.

THEREFORE VALID!

Jamie · 09-25-2008, 08:37 AM

Hi Banana

I know what you mean my man.

Even though I posted stating that I own a K-Bar knife, the knife is a survival knife, being designed for heavy usage over many years.

It is not designed to used as a killing implement, although it could be.

Although I have trained in Martial Arts myself, I really don't like the idea of violence in any form. I believe the founder of Aikido had it spot on with the system that he developed.

Peace

Jay

mikey · 09-25-2008, 09:46 AM

Hey...I mean no offense to anyone here, i just think this forum was set up to establish new communities for like minded people to come together to exchange ideas for a new tomoro and a better tomoro.
A tomoro where there is no need for violence for our planet has endured enough blood shed.
Instead of 'where can i buy a gun to feed my family' maybe we should focus more on growing our own food and being self-sufficient. Community unity and sharing is what is gona get people thru hard times...not staring down the barrel of a gun in my honest opinion!
I state again that i would defend my family with my life, i have no worries about this and do not fear it but i just dont see the use for violence or the intention for violence and think the thread stated was fully submerged in all the wrong vibes.
There is lots of great info out there and on here about growing food and fishing... (believe it or not there are a few healthy happy people out there eating nothing and purely sungazing!)

(just incase u were interested - http://www.solarhealing.com/)

Sometimes the bigger picture is so big it is hard to see

"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." - Gandhi

peace bananaman

Anchor · 09-25-2008, 10:07 AM

I have been trying to think about why the gun thread evoked such an emotion.

To me guns and other weapons are tools. The core issue is all about "intent" and personal responsibility for that intent. To a hunter, a gun bags his next meal. To a killer, it is the dispatching of his next victim, but it is still only a gun. In fact, shooting a gun really accurately is a martial art.

I can see that the associated glamour and machismo that gets attached to guns is the real problem, and to a certain extent, fear based associations. So I can see that it is distracting from the forums main goal and anyway there are a huge number of other places that have more and higher quality debate about guns.

For the record, I have shot all manner of different projectile weapons at targets and it is huge fun, and a real challenge to do it well. But then I like martial arts as well. None of that makes me negative or a bad-person with bad-vibe issues.

The other thing that occurs to me is about knives.

You need a knife in your survival kits. Simple - if you think you need a survival kit, then you need an appropriate knife. I am sure this will be discussed at some point in the prepper sub-forum - and that must happen. I would appeal for the moderators to allow that discussion.

A..

mikey · 09-25-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anchor

I have been trying to think about why the gun thread evoked such an emotion.

To me guns and other weapons are tools. The core issue is all about "intent" and personal responsibility for that intent. To a hunter, a gun bags his next meal. To a killer, it is the dispatching of his next victim, but it is still only a gun. In fact, shooting a gun really accurately is a martial art.

I can see that the associated glamour and machismo that gets attached to guns is the real problem, and to a certain extent, fear based associations. So I can see that it is distracting from the forums main goal and anyway there are a huge number of other places that have more and higher quality debate about guns.

For the record, I have shot all manner of different projectile weapons at targets and it is huge fun, and a real challenge to do it well. But then I like martial arts as well. None of that makes me negative or a bad-person with bad-vibe issues.

The other thing that occurs to me is about knives.

You need a knife in your survival kits. Simple - if you think you need a survival kit, then you need an appropriate knife. I am sure this will be discussed at some point in the prepper sub-forum - and that must happen. I would appeal for the moderators to allow that discussion.

A..

You are quite right....having played with guns or trained in martial arts does not make u negative or a bad-person with bad-vibe issues. On the contrary it should make u more wise and disciplined in the meaning and truth of the art in question and more respectful of the guns and their potential.
I stated that the thread in question was swaying deeply into a negatively vibed area where owning a gun is crucial and imperative for survival even at the expense of other beings. That is simply not how we need to move forward and ultimately will not move forward with this frame of thought.

Knives imo are multi-usable tools and vitally important to have in the suggested up'n'coming scenarios but guns bring a different dimension.
Maybe we just think differently but i can assure you, i will not be holding a gun to anybodys head to get my next meal...

This is a good video if u have time to watch it - Freedom of Choice - http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3260

peace
bananaman

Anchor · 09-25-2008, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Maybe we just think differently but i can assure you, i will not be holding a gun to anybodys head to get my next meal...

No, we definately agree.

gazbom · 09-25-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anchor

No, we definitely agree.

No, but someone might be holding one to your head while his friend is raping your daughter!
The guy has a good point, look what happened in the New Orleans sports stadium during the Hurricane, women robbed and raped, people murdered!

The masses will be like wild dogs, you will need to protect your family, believe me.

Anchor · 09-25-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gazbom

No, but someone might be holding one to your head while his friend is raping your daughter!
The guy has a good point, look what happened in the New Orleans sports stadium during the Hurricane, women robbed and raped, people murdered!

The masses will be like wild dogs, you will need to protect your family, believe me.

It strikes me as strange that people in a survival situation would be more interested in food and resources, rather than sex.

Eitherway I can assure you that he would need to kill me.

A..

gazbom · 09-25-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anchor

It strikes me as strange that people in a survival situation would be more interested in food and resources, rather than sex.

Eitherway I can assure you that he would need to kill me.

A..

But that wouldn't help your daughter would it?

Anchor · 09-25-2008, 12:09 PM

Ok, Im getting told-off by my higher self for posting the previous comment. I cant realistically edit it because I have been quoted already and so now I am going to just stop.

We have more important things to talk about.

May you all be found blessed in the light and in the love of the one infinate creator.

A..

gazbom · 09-25-2008, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anchor

Ok, Im getting told-off by my higher self for posting the previous comment. I cant realistically edit it because I have been quoted already and so now I am going to just stop.

We have more important things to talk about.

May you all be found blessed in the light and in the love of the one infinate creator.

A..

I absolutely agree with you Anchor!

09-25-2008, 12:37 PM

Ok guys..

We need to calm this one down or it will get locked.

The discussion of using guns for survival, although relevant, is not what we're happy seeing posted on Avalon. There are numerous other sites to find this information.

Please respect each other's opinions on this highly touchy subject & dont try to badger other members into seeing it from your own point of view.

We all know, in our own hearts how we would react if such a situation arose. But not everyone feels comfortable discussing it..

mikey · 09-25-2008, 12:45 PM

Thank you Muzza!!...and again apologies if i have offended anybody..

peace and love

bananaman

Lance · 09-25-2008, 06:04 PM

I'm confused by the notion of guns=bad. I live in rural British Columbia and to be honest, I've been tracked by a cougar (later shot) walking with my then 5 year old. I've been in several 'conflicts' with black bears, hunted by a grizzly and pestered by a kermode. What in god's snot should I do to avoid having a gun...move to Vancouver? I shoot a 50 LB recurve bow which is almost enough weight to hunt (legally you only need to shoot a 40LB bow) with, but really...using a bow in a bear rush situation doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I DO NOT own a gun!
But I am about to get my 'PAL' and buy a 22 long barrel, a shotgun of some sort, and a hunting rifle. I was kind of hoping someone here might be able to assist me in what to buy. But the knee-jerk reactions to the gun thread got it closed...Next autumn I plan on hunting elk and deer to supplement my families diet.

Heretic · 09-25-2008, 06:14 PM

guns...of all kinds will of course be absolutely necessary to protect yourself and perhaps hunting as the lesser evil

that is if you live in a community that requires this

my intention of being here at Avalon, is to avert this situation altogether

The tongue like a sharp knife... Kills without drawing blood. - Buddha

strayslack · 09-25-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananaman

Hi people...i dont want to dwell on it too much but i found something thats irritated me somewhat. I stumbled on this thread the other day, posted on it, and whilst reflecting i am struggling to understand how or why it was started in the first place...i mean i know why it was started but it goes completely against everything we or i stand for and what i want or envision for a new ''world''. A world of peace and no suffering for anyone...
Is my vision too perfect do u think...is it impossible to attain such a level where all violence and/or intention of violence is not a choice... I sincerely hope not.
Heres the thread - http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3225

Can we please make an effort to not have any other threads like these which are so engulfed in negativity im almost embarrassed it was on this forum.

There are forums dedicated to this kind of stuff and i dont feel it is here if i can say that...please feel free to agree or disagree with me on this but i think this needed to be said.

Lets raise the level people...there is no path to peace, peace is the path

bananaman

Respectfully, the answer to your question is a resounding "no".
I want nothing more than peace, and an end to this world of violence that we've created for ourselves, but this forum is about survival, and sharing information on surviving whatever might be coming. To that end, I will protect my family, which includes a 5-year old and 2 2-year olds, against anyone who tries to harm them, or take the means of survival from them. I will not use my weapons to harm anyone at all, except those that seek to do harm to me or my family.
I also plan to hunt game for food.
So I wish everyone peace and prosperity and the love that we all deserve. However, if you mean us harm, you will be sorry.
It's not a macho thing, it's using yet another tool to accomplish a goal. Survival.

pineal-pilot-in merkabah · 09-25-2008, 06:17 PM

we all know what we have to do.. since the usa is most likely to errupt into chaos. some may feel trhe need to havea weapon for prtoection on the way to their safe spot. i posted in the previous thraed to push the guy on about guns in a more healthier direction with out trying to offend. i to have a K BAR knife for survival purpose only.

strayslack · 09-25-2008, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance

I'm confused by the notion of guns=bad. I live in rural British Columbia and to be honest, I've been tracked by a cougar (later shot) walking with my then 5 year old. I've been in several 'conflicts' with black bears, hunted by a grizzly and pestered by a kermode. What in god's snot should I do to avoid having a gun...move to Vancouver? I shoot a 50 LB recurve bow which is almost enough weight to hunt (legally you only need to shoot a 40LB bow) with, but really...using a bow in a bear rush situation doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I DO NOT own a gun!
But I am about to get my 'PAL' and buy a 22 long barrel, a shotgun of some sort, and a hunting rifle. I was kind of hoping someone here might be able to assist me in what to buy. But the knee-jerk reactions to the gun thread got it closed...Next autumn I plan on hunting elk and deer to supplement my families diet.

I can provide you with adequate advice if you so desire.

mudhog92 · 09-25-2008, 06:26 PM

Guns don't kill, people do. They are a tool. They can be used for survival, and sadly, defense. You are allowed to defend yourself, even spiritually speaking. The number one documented deterrent to a criminal is if they know you have weapons. I used to sport shoot, but since awakeniong sold all but two guns, .22 for small game if I need, and a pistol to defend if I must. I hope to GOD i never have to shoot anyone, but if someone threatens my family, I will defend myself. If they want my food, I'll cook it for them. But do not harm my kids. I will not watch someone hurt my kids without a fight.

Natoka · 09-25-2008, 07:21 PM

I find it interesting that all but one of these entries above came from outside the US, even though we here know the US will be in chaos. No matter where we call home, I feel each of us will do what is necessary to safeguard our beloveds and close friends from harm. May we have the Wisdom to prepare and choose, while under deep duress, our actions well .

Natoka

gazbom · 09-25-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natoka

I find it interesting that all but one of these entries above came from outside the US, even though we here know the US will be in chaos. No matter where we call home, I feel each of us will do what is necessary to safeguard our beloveds and close friends from harm. May we have the Wisdom to prepare and choose, while under deep duress, our actions well .

Natoka

The West will fall not only the US, in the UK for example their is now 1 CCTV surveillance camera for every 17 people, the total population is a total of 60 million, take off your blinkers, it's happening everywhere!

MMe M · 09-27-2008, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natoka

I find it interesting that all but one of these entries above came from outside the US, even though we here know the US will be in chaos. No matter where we call home, I feel each of us will do what is necessary to safeguard our beloveds and close friends from harm. May we have the Wisdom to prepare and choose, while under deep duress, our actions well .

Natoka

Too right. The UK has lost their guns, Only the criminals have them now.

I am not selfish, but people that have not prepared will not care if they leave you one grain of rice. Share if you can but It is the supreme act of idiocy to lay down your only defense against starvation and the wellbeing of your family. This concept of we all love each other is tossed out the door the minute some run out of food, water and medicine. People have and will kill for food within three days after the breakdown of civilization. Do not think my friends that we are any more civilized or benign than any other people throughout our known history.

777 The Great Work · 09-27-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananaman

Hi people...i dont want to dwell on it too much but i found something thats irritated me somewhat. I stumbled on this thread the other day, posted on it, and whilst reflecting i am struggling to understand how or why it was started in the first place...i mean i know why it was started but it goes completely against everything we or i stand for and what i want or envision for a new ''world''. A world of peace and no suffering for anyone...
Is my vision too perfect do u think...is it impossible to attain such a level where all violence and/or intention of violence is not a choice... I sincerely hope not.
Heres the thread - http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3225

Can we please make an effort to not have any other threads like these which are so engulfed in negativity im almost embarrassed it was on this forum.

There are forums dedicated to this kind of stuff and i dont feel it is here if i can say that...please feel free to agree or disagree with me on this but i think this needed to be said.

Lets raise the level people...there is no path to peace, peace is the path

bananaman

Coded message with intent to seek out the weak and bring negative energy. I noticed his posting privledges were revoked.

ForsakenFalcon · 09-27-2008, 12:51 PM

I do understand O.P's main concern but realisticly if crap hits the fan and there are going to be ground crews up and sufficantly running then sadly there is going to be People whom are going to want the bearing's of what a safe zone could offer with out contributeing and worse case they pillige the ground crews to the point of no way to restart then move onto the next safe spot.

Reguardless on how You think/feel the probability of ALL ground crew's needing some form of Guardian's/Warrior's is going to be high espicaly around populated city's.

09-25-2008, 07:19 AM	#1
mikey Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 228	*The thread that goes against everything we want... 4 Reports* Simon** Hi people...i dont want to dwell on it too much but i found something thats irritated me somewhat. I stumbled on this thread the other day, posted on it, and whilst reflecting i am struggling to understand how or why it was started in the first place...i mean i know why it was started but it goes completely against everything we or i stand for and what i want or envision for a new ''world''. A world of peace and no suffering for anyone... Is my vision too perfect do u think...is it impossible to attain such a level where all violence and/or intention of violence is not a choice... I sincerely hope not. Heres the thread - http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3225 Can we please make an effort to not have any other threads like these which are so engulfed in negativity im almost embarrassed it was on this forum. There are forums dedicated to this kind of stuff and i dont feel it is here if i can say that...please feel free to agree or disagree with me on this but i think this needed to be said. Lets raise the level people...there is no path to peace, peace is the path bananaman Last edited by mikey; 09-25-2008 at 08:17 AM. Reason: reviewing choice of words...

09-25-2008, 08:31 AM	#2
MMe M Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 211	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... You can tell the starving people that are going to use whatever they posess to separate you from your families food stores that we all just need to love each other a little more and that im really not about violence. It may work. But heres what im thinkin. Its just a guess, but im thinkin looking down the business end of a .44 is going to be just a little more persuasive than that whole lovey you, peace and good vibes dude comin your way brain wave. Not to mention we may just need to hunt to survive. Peace iznt gonna fill yer belly. THEREFORE VALID!

09-25-2008, 08:37 AM	#3
Jamie Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: EX - Avalon Moderator Posts: 94	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... Hi Banana I know what you mean my man. Even though I posted stating that I own a K-Bar knife, the knife is a survival knife, being designed for heavy usage over many years. It is not designed to used as a killing implement, although it could be. Although I have trained in Martial Arts myself, I really don't like the idea of violence in any form. I believe the founder of Aikido had it spot on with the system that he developed. Peace Jay

09-25-2008, 09:46 AM	#4
mikey Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 228	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... Hey...I mean no offense to anyone here, i just think this forum was set up to establish new communities for like minded people to come together to exchange ideas for a new tomoro and a better tomoro. A tomoro where there is no need for violence for our planet has endured enough blood shed. Instead of 'where can i buy a gun to feed my family' maybe we should focus more on growing our own food and being self-sufficient. Community unity and sharing is what is gona get people thru hard times...not staring down the barrel of a gun in my honest opinion! I state again that i would defend my family with my life, i have no worries about this and do not fear it but i just dont see the use for violence or the intention for violence and think the thread stated was fully submerged in all the wrong vibes. There is lots of great info out there and on here about growing food and fishing... (believe it or not there are a few healthy happy people out there eating nothing and purely sungazing!) (just incase u were interested - http://www.solarhealing.com/) Sometimes the bigger picture is so big it is hard to see "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." - Gandhi peace bananaman Last edited by mikey; 09-25-2008 at 09:51 AM.

09-25-2008, 10:07 AM	#5
Anchor Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia Posts: 2,280	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... I have been trying to think about why the gun thread evoked such an emotion. To me guns and other weapons are tools. The core issue is all about "intent" and personal responsibility for that intent. To a hunter, a gun bags his next meal. To a killer, it is the dispatching of his next victim, but it is still only a gun. In fact, shooting a gun really accurately is a martial art. I can see that the associated glamour and machismo that gets attached to guns is the real problem, and to a certain extent, fear based associations. So I can see that it is distracting from the forums main goal and anyway there are a huge number of other places that have more and higher quality debate about guns. For the record, I have shot all manner of different projectile weapons at targets and it is huge fun, and a real challenge to do it well. But then I like martial arts as well. None of that makes me negative or a bad-person with bad-vibe issues. The other thing that occurs to me is about knives. You need a knife in your survival kits. Simple - if you think you need a survival kit, then you need an appropriate knife. I am sure this will be discussed at some point in the prepper sub-forum - and that must happen. I would appeal for the moderators to allow that discussion. A..

09-25-2008, 12:09 PM	#11
Anchor Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia Posts: 2,280	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... Ok, Im getting told-off by my higher self for posting the previous comment. I cant realistically edit it because I have been quoted already and so now I am going to just stop. We have more important things to talk about. May you all be found blessed in the light and in the love of the one infinate creator. A..

09-25-2008, 12:37 PM	#13
Colin Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... Ok guys.. We need to calm this one down or it will get locked. The discussion of using guns for survival, although relevant, is not what we're happy seeing posted on Avalon. There are numerous other sites to find this information. Please respect each other's opinions on this highly touchy subject & dont try to badger other members into seeing it from your own point of view. We all know, in our own hearts how we would react if such a situation arose. But not everyone feels comfortable discussing it..

09-25-2008, 12:45 PM	#14
mikey Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 228	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... Thank you Muzza!!...and again apologies if i have offended anybody.. peace and love bananaman

09-25-2008, 06:04 PM	#15
Lance Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: South Coastal British Columbia Posts: 183	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... I'm confused by the notion of guns=bad. I live in rural British Columbia and to be honest, I've been tracked by a cougar (later shot) walking with my then 5 year old. I've been in several 'conflicts' with black bears, hunted by a grizzly and pestered by a kermode. What in god's snot should I do to avoid having a gun...move to Vancouver? I shoot a 50 LB recurve bow which is almost enough weight to hunt (legally you only need to shoot a 40LB bow) with, but really...using a bow in a bear rush situation doesn't seem to make sense to me. I DO NOT own a gun! But I am about to get my 'PAL' and buy a 22 long barrel, a shotgun of some sort, and a hunting rifle. I was kind of hoping someone here might be able to assist me in what to buy. But the knee-jerk reactions to the gun thread got it closed...Next autumn I plan on hunting elk and deer to supplement my families diet.

09-25-2008, 06:14 PM	#16
Heretic Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Now Posts: 371	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... guns...of all kinds will of course be absolutely necessary to protect yourself and perhaps hunting as the lesser evil that is if you live in a community that requires this my intention of being here at Avalon, is to avert this situation altogether The tongue like a sharp knife... Kills without drawing blood. - Buddha

09-25-2008, 06:17 PM	#18
pineal-pilot-in merkabah Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: england Posts: 1,153	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... we all know what we have to do.. since the usa is most likely to errupt into chaos. some may feel trhe need to havea weapon for prtoection on the way to their safe spot. i posted in the previous thraed to push the guy on about guns in a more healthier direction with out trying to offend. i to have a K BAR knife for survival purpose only.

09-25-2008, 06:26 PM	#20
mudhog92 Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PA Posts: 93	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... Guns don't kill, people do. They are a tool. They can be used for survival, and sadly, defense. You are allowed to defend yourself, even spiritually speaking. The number one documented deterrent to a criminal is if they know you have weapons. I used to sport shoot, but since awakeniong sold all but two guns, .22 for small game if I need, and a pistol to defend if I must. I hope to GOD i never have to shoot anyone, but if someone threatens my family, I will defend myself. If they want my food, I'll cook it for them. But do not harm my kids. I will not watch someone hurt my kids without a fight.

09-25-2008, 07:21 PM	#21
Natoka Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Petaluma Ca Posts: 15	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... I find it interesting that all but one of these entries above came from outside the US, even though we here know the US will be in chaos. No matter where we call home, I feel each of us will do what is necessary to safeguard our beloveds and close friends from harm. May we have the Wisdom to prepare and choose, while under deep duress, our actions well . Natoka

09-27-2008, 12:51 PM	#25
ForsakenFalcon Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Hideing From The Clandestine Dark Suit's! Posts: 190	Re: The thread that goes against everything we want... I do understand O.P's main concern but realisticly if crap hits the fan and there are going to be ground crews up and sufficantly running then sadly there is going to be People whom are going to want the bearing's of what a safe zone could offer with out contributeing and worse case they pillige the ground crews to the point of no way to restart then move onto the next safe spot. Reguardless on how You think/feel the probability of ALL ground crew's needing some form of Guardian's/Warrior's is going to be high espicaly around populated city's.