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Old 10-17-2008, 02:09 AM   #51
Humble Janitor
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

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---

Tee-He
Agreed. Can't point out anything to that poster without the threat of a warning so --- is a decent response.
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Old 10-17-2008, 02:23 AM   #52
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

For arguments sake let's say Obama really was born in South Africa and not Hawaii.

McCain is backed by the oil companies

Obama is backed by Rockefeller.

Obama is a socialist.

Now if each of these statements is really true.... which do you think has the most potential for real political fallout here?
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Old 10-17-2008, 02:50 AM   #53
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Wink Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

The topic of this thread can trigger subversive topics. Although, we try to be open-minded at Avalon, we enjoy good solid content. Also discussing racism in a thread is an easy trap for debate.

It is a challenge to stay on topic without getting emotional. But I don't see how racism fits into the question regarding the thread.

The question is: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

Well, I personally do not have that answer. I am sure that there are members that have opinions on this. But please try to back it up with real facts. This would make this thread more productive.

Although the question itself can lead to unnecessary potential negative energy. But we hope that there are people at Avalon that are more respectful to other members.

Remember we are a community. Let's try to have a rational discussion not a racial discussion.

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Old 10-17-2008, 03:39 AM   #54
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

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The question is: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

Well, I personally do not have that answer. I am sure that there are members that have opinions on this. But please try to back it up with real facts. This would make this thread more productive.

The fact is that Obama is neither. How could he POSSIBLY be when he is funded by Wall Street? Frankly, I wish he were. I wish there was one politician out there who WOULD offer a real, viable alternative to Capitalism. But they all - including Nader - support the system, with their own modifications, of course. Cynthia McKinney may be an exception as today I heard her suggest we close down the Fed and truly nationalize the banks, not just bail out the bankster capitalists. But until someone suggests we nationalize the profitable companies (like Microsoft or the pharmaceutical industry), I think people can rest easy that the red flag will not be waving over the White House...
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Old 10-17-2008, 03:44 AM   #55
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

obama makes the hand signal too
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Old 10-17-2008, 03:46 AM   #56
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

obama and the devil sign
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File Type: jpg devilobama.jpg (13.4 KB, 14 views)
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Old 10-17-2008, 04:53 PM   #57
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Default Redistributing Mortgages

Am I the only who who sees the irony and hypocrisy of condemning Obama's tax plan as "redistributing wealth" while John McCain proposes a mortgage relief plan that would take my tax dollars to pay down my neighbor's mortgage who got in over his head?
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Old 10-17-2008, 06:04 PM   #58
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Default Re: Redistributing Mortgages

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Originally Posted by Eli in MI View Post
Am I the only who who sees the irony and hypocrisy of condemning Obama's tax plan as "redistributing wealth" while John McCain proposes a mortgage relief plan that would take my tax dollars to pay down my neighbor's mortgage who got in over his head?
And isn't giving even more money to oil companies in the form of tax breaks also redistributing our wealth--into the hands of those that need it the least?
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Old 10-17-2008, 09:00 PM   #59
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

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obama makes the hand signal too
Excellent observation. Let's get real here. In the last debate, Obama made it quite clear who his friends are - Warren Buffet and Paul Volker - and by doing so, made it quite clear to the PTB that he is no threat to the current establishment. I think we are all confusing the message with the messenger. Despite the fact that the war is unpopular and the public is generally outraged by the 'bailout,' Obama did not pander to popular sentiment, but to the elite who pay his salary by backing off his demand that we pull out of Iraq, and supporting the bailout unconditionally.

And why is it that he doesn't attack McCain for his involvement in the Keating 5 and the S&L scandal? Could it be that he's been instructed that such criticisms of the established order are off limits?

For those who look to Obama and suggest he may be the new FDR, I would remind everyone that the depression did not end (despite all the government efforts to create jobs, etc.) until WWII, a war in which FDR was so anxious to involve us, that he allowed Pearl Harbor.
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Old 10-18-2008, 02:09 AM   #60
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

The Real issue is not what- who -why - is Obama ANYTHING ! ! !

Come on Guys, please - It could just as well be a straw Guy Fawks puppet with a broom handle stuck up it's backside as President of the USA.

It is: WHO IS ACTUALLY PULLING THE STRINGS?

Time for another roll around the floor

and a nice cuppa thats better
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Old 10-18-2008, 12:42 PM   #61
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

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obama and the devil sign
Susan, that photo was taken in Austin, TX where that hand sign represents "hook em horns" , support for the UT Longhorns football team. You can also see photos of the Clintons and Bush making the sign, and I can assure everyone here that it has nothing to do with devil worship. I lived in
Austin for many years, and any Texan can confirm this.
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Old 10-18-2008, 01:24 PM   #62
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

Moonbaby, I'll bet my bippy that you are right.
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Old 10-18-2008, 06:02 PM   #63
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

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I think we are all confusing the message with the messenger. Despite the fact that the war is unpopular and the public is generally outraged by the 'bailout,' Obama did not pander to popular sentiment, but to the elite who pay his salary by backing off his demand that we pull out of Iraq, and supporting the bailout unconditionally.

And why is it that he doesn't attack McCain for his involvement in the Keating 5 and the S&L scandal? Could it be that he's been instructed that such criticisms of the established order are off limits?
gwynned: Obama did not by any means support the bailout "unconditionally". In fact, he stated 4 conditions that had to be included in the bill for him to vote for it.

1. The possibility of "upside" potential for American taxpayers. Taxpayers are treated as investors. If our money is put at risk, we would share the rewards, should "the system" right itself.

2. No CEO "golden parachutes".

3. Bipartisan oversight of the spending.

4. Measures to keep families at risk of foreclosure in their homes.

If you want to learn more about the Keating 5, visit this website built by Obama for America.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information about Obama's Iraq plan, but you're incorrect. Read the plan here. His goal is to end the war, but to use as much care and caution as we didn't use before going to war. A responsible, phased withdrawal.

The American people, and especially still-undecided voters, do not like negative campaigning. This has been proven over and over and over again during this election cycle. Obama knows this, and he has kept a mostly positive campaign, focusing on the issues. When he "goes negative" it's primarily been to defend himself, and mostly kept on the web. Such criticisms are not "off limits" by some controlling body "instructing" the candidates.

He's doing what he's doing to win. We have to allow him that. Obama knows the system is broken, and has said so, but he still has to take on that system and win before anything can improve.

That's politics for you. This bailout plan was crafted as a way to box Obama in. There's consequences for voting either way, just as the FISA bill earlier this year was written and pushed through as a way to box him in and tie him to the consequences on one side or the other. Vote against FISA, and you're "soft on terror". Vote for it and you're allowing illegal wiretapping.

What Obama has managed to do is take the dialogue up a level. He's good at explaining himself, and people listen and understand him. We have to allow him to exist within that dichotomy for another 17 days, and if and when he wins, we can start to demand real solutions.

We simply need to understand that right now, everything he's doing is to sway undecided voters into his column. Now before anyone says, "See? He's just like all the rest.." go back and read this message again from the beginning. He has to play the game established by the system in order to win. Once he wins, we can start to make some changes, and dismantle the broken system and build a real one.

A couple things are going to happen in 17 days, when this presidential campaign is finally over. There will be record voter turn-out all across the country. There will be so many people that the voting system will be forced to completely restructure because twice as many people will be engaged. This will be our first step toward creating a real democracy based on fairness, justice, and equality.

But right now, we simply have to allow him to play to win, and not hold it against him. The guy is extremely smart, and knows exactly what he's doing, and what he's up against.

There's only a little wiggle room given to a president, but by getting people involved (about 3 million donors, 4 million volunteers), and taking the dialogue up to a level where the people here can understand logic and reason again, and can connect thoughts and ideas in sequence, Obama has opened up a larger politics.

The fact is, if you want to continue to search for reasons to be fearful and paranoid of Obama, you'll surely find them. There's plenty of smears to buy into, and plenty of lies put forth by the McCain campaign (and Avalon users) if you really want to find a way to not trust him. Heck, this is true of anything you might have faith in. Just look around long enough, and you're sure to find someone willing to tell you what you believe is wrong.

It's a choice of how you want to live. Do you want to live in fear? Or hope?

If you find you simply cannot find a way to trust a higher calling given to man who continues his path in the face of threats of violence against him and his family, you can at least cast your vote against Bush's 3rd term.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:40 AM   #64
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

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obama and the devil sign
I guess it's a good thing I'll never run for office.... some pics of me at a Mettalica concert might surface, hehe
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:54 AM   #65
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

I think that this kind of post belongs on Avalon. Try ATS.

I would have hoped that we would be above this kind of posting.

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Old 10-20-2008, 11:35 AM   #66
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Default Re: Neither, or both.

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Originally Posted by Eli in MI View Post
It's astounding to read how some people can be so reductionist.

Perhaps he is simply someone who's trying to help. God knows we need it.

Obama is squeaky clean. That's why you see (..)
That was a good one. Brezinski is also good. The council on foreign relations is also good. I am good. You are good. We are all just candy dressed people

Sorry for the cynicism, but this was really hard to resist. How can you even take such a 'choice' serious. Isn't the point of the so called 'truth movement' to expose the real agenda rather then debate the bs these so called 'leaders' are putting in front of us which has almost nothing to do with your daily life and is governance through illusionary concepts like american money, 'the terrorists', peak oil, global warming, 'change' .

I thought we were over this.
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Old 10-20-2008, 12:18 PM   #67
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

Speaking of Socialism....
Just thought I would remind some members here that back in the 1950's when America's Economic strength was high we had a Blend of Capitalism & Socialism back then.

Yes we did. And if I remember correctly it worked out pretty good.
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Old 10-20-2008, 01:08 PM   #68
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

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It is definitely one or the other. Pure communism for the world would be great, everyone would have what they need to sustain a well balanced life while passing through this world...

Obama thinks that 'redistributing the wealth' will change the world. Unfortunately he is either just naive or worse yet, more corrupt that the current administration. I would like to think he is naive but that is difficult based on this guys past associations (ala Resco.) So if Obama gets in, you can bet your bippy that we are going to get a royal screwing...

While I make less than the threshold that Obama says will get tax increases, companies are going to go offshore to produce...

McCain is the least of the two evils....
Communism started with the Ludite Christian movement in England. Karl Marx observed it, performed intellectual discourse upon it and formed the Marxist movement. Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin adopted different forms with varying degrees of fascist violence to create Soviet Russia. China did the same thing. Mao killed ten million people. Stalin killed 25 million people, mainly by starving them to death. Communism is the stratification of goods and services at different social levels. Beaurocrats receive the largest stratification, which is why, under communism, everyone tries to get a government job in order to obtain more goods and services. But all is controlled by some form of highly centralized Politburo, which is always destined to implode upon itself because everybody is crawling over each other to get to the top of the beauracracy, expanding it exponentially. Submit the fall of the USSR as an example.

Socialism is government control of the private sector with loss of personal property rights. The bailout is pure socialist movement. Buying up mortgages by the government is socialist. Buying up CDS is pure socialist. You are allowed to own, but only at the whim of the government in order to shore up the consumer base and productivity. Bailouts and 'wealth redistribution' are socialist instruments. The end result is always equal outcomes, which stifle creativity, productivity, and inspiration to achieve something better. Submit 'Joe the Plumber' as an example. Socialism puts a cap on personal achievement except at the top. Most all countries in the world have a form of socialism called social democracy, one person, one vote, with class stratification to keep their version of Wall Street seperate from the private sector, secured by a parlimentarian form of government to insure that the private sector remains in check. Usually a monarch or two are involved. Submit Great Britian, France, and Germany as prime examples.

Fascism is the division of society into three sections- the principles, the agents, the government. The agents do all the work, the principles receive all the handouts, and the government runs everything. There are elements of social democracy sprinkled within Fascism to give it a friendly face, initially. Eventually, the government aquires more principles than agents and has to feed an ever-expanding handout bubble. This type of governing shares similarities with communism and socialism. It's main feature is an Iron Fist. Cite Nazi Germany and Italy during WW2 as examples.

Social democracy is one person, one vote. Depending on how radical a social democrat is determines how far this type of government descends into any or all the lego pieces of any of the above mentioned types. Social democracy relies heavily on class action, class dispute, ethnic dispute (which it relables as racial dispute), class warefare (caused by graduated taxation) and many other things to basically keep a population riled up and arguing with each other, keeping the people distracted, so that social democrats can create a problem which only they can solve (which is the true nature of all government). Since the bailout, the US has become a true social democracy.

Constitutional Republic is what the US origially started as. Inspiration for the US Constitution can be traced from the Magna Carta, to the Pilgrims compact, to the Articles of Confederacy (forerunner of the US Constitution). In a constitutional republic, there are checks and balances in the form of a triumvirate government- executive, legislative, judicial. A constitutional republic is a representative form of government found in the bipartite legislative branch, which consists of the House of Reps and the Senate. The House makes laws, the Senate debates them. (Did you notice the bailout happened the exact opposite?) Only in the House of Representatives is there a parlimentarian formate. Nowhere else. Only in the House do they decide legislature one person, one vote. They represent their people in a constitutional republic. Sixty years of case law, statuatory law, omnibus law (which is what the bailout is) have marginalized the republican (not the party) base of the US constitution. You hear the talking heads say the US is a nation of laws. In a constitutional republic, the constitution is based upon common law. In a democracy, the constitution is based upon an ever expanding body of case and statuatory law, subject to reclassification and change at any time for any reason.

g.
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:17 PM   #69
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Speaking of Socialism....
Just thought I would remind some members here that back in the 1950's when America's Economic strength was high we had a Blend of Capitalism & Socialism back then.

Yes we did. And if I remember correctly it worked out pretty good.
Same here monetarily. The main problem was corrupt government and idiot people who became a cancer upon the society, not based on the system but its use (as in science). Which in the end affected the people who were not involved in the decision making process. It's like blaming the fan for a sucking football club. If you've got sell out players the game won't get better if you change their system of playing.
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:19 PM   #70
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

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Speaking of Socialism....
Just thought I would remind some members here that back in the 1950's when America's Economic strength was high we had a Blend of Capitalism & Socialism back then.

Yes we did. And if I remember correctly it worked out pretty good.
We did??? In what way? Weren't those the McCarthy years when everyone 'red' or 'pink' was hunted down? Just because the government may have had a social program, did not make it socialist.
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:39 PM   #71
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

Wake up.

It doesn't matter if he is a socialist, communist, fascist, nihilist, narcicist, racist, antagonist, pragmatist, anarchist, mesmerist or any other 'ist'.

He is a tool of the real powers who has handed decision making over to his handlers in exchange for the perks of office. The ONLY president we have ever had who dared to defy his handlers was JFK - and we all know how that turned out.
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:03 PM   #72
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

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Originally Posted by eXchanger View Post
obama makes the hand signal too

Seriously folks, as imperfect as we are as a race, do you seriously think that a plot could have been launched hundreds or thousands of years ago and remain largely hidden? Or that a plan could continue across multiple generations without someone dropping the ball? "They" couldnt even fake thier way into Iraq or leak Valerie Plame without getting caught. I'm sure others can point out stupid things done by various administrations.

Thier may be so-called "secret" societies but my feeling is that people are creating a reality around them that is not rooted in fact. As I wake to reality and ponder who I really am, the conspiracy theories are a distraction. I think this is part of the mass consciousness that is in denial. Much like the part of mass consciousness that feels the need to consume to be happy.

As for the aiens, I'm sure there is other life out there. If they show themselves to us it would undoubtably change many perspectives.

Time to wake up to what is here and now.
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:26 PM   #73
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

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"They" couldnt even fake thier way into Iraq or leak Valerie Plame without getting caught.
But their agenda moves forward and nothing changes - even when they are caught.

How did the public being made aware of the fallacy behind the Iraq invasion or the treason of the Plame affair hinder them? Do the people even care?

There are secrets which have been handed down throughout the ages and succesfully kept from public view. Lots of them. It is easy to keep a secret when everything you have or are depends on it.
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:06 PM   #74
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Default Re: Is Obama a Communist or Socialist?

he's mind controlled illuminati-like all the others.
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