Poor Gary Mckinnon

[murnut]

One, I have no opinion on British law...from the house of lords decision I read, it seemed reasonable that Gary was treated fairly.

I have countered your opinions, with facts.

Gary put himself in the situation he faces.

I said that you have been sold on the hype because you quoted it.

Hackers generally plead out or face a longer sentence.

He admitted his guilt.

The ufo defense is laughable in the real world.

No "real" attorney would recommend something so stupid.

Yes the US military has evidence.

Yes, I misspoke, Gary is innocent until proven guilty.

He just has admitted to the hacking but not the damage.

I have not seen the evidence, but I have read about it.

Seems convincing to me

US military secrets are not hooked up to the internet...in my opinion.

In my opinion, Gary saw nothing

The $5000 number per unit means little to me until the evidence is presented, but that is the rumored amount.

I have no opinion on the UK extradition law...the house of lords seems okay with it though.

Originally Posted by TheGhost

"Is everyone out to get Gary?" - no, the US military/Shadow Government is out to get him and they are exerting pressure on others so that they can get their hands on him.
Asking the question "Is everyone out to get Gary?" suggests you think my arguments mean there must be a vast conspiracy involving thousands of people, or something. Obviously this is not the case.
You appear to be resorting to the arguemnet that if I believe he is being treated unfairly or even illegally it must be because I think it is being done by a vast network of people and it is unthinkable that a vast network of people could/would be out to get him and so I must be wrong. This is a very poor argument.

You seem to think that he should/deserves to be in this situation.
1) the alleged crimes occurred on British soil and so if any charges are brought it should be under British law in a British court,
2) the Extradition Act 2003 is essentially a treasonous document - selling out the rights of British citizens in favour of a foreign government.
He should not be faced with extradition to and trial in a foreign country, whatsoever.

"You my friend, have been sold on the hype." - I've been sold on the hype?!? You do not (or cannot) give me any counter arguments to the points I have made and so you resort to ridiculous statements like that.

"if he is actually foolish enough to go to trial" - it's foolish to defend oneself, is it?? Wow, that is a very big statement. I wonder what kind of justice would be served if you created the laws of the land!

"The evil PtB defense? The Danny B defense?" - there is a provision in law that says, essentially, that if the authorities have gone to excessive lengths (disproportionate to the alleged offence) to pursue the alleged criminal then the jury can find the defendant not guilty even if they think he did commit the crime. It is a way of telling the authorities that the jury thinks their money can be better spent (catching real criminals)! So, to some extent, yes, the "evil PtB" defence could be employed.
Because the authorities have pursued Gary so long and arduously the jury may very well be interested in the content of what he found as it is undoubtedly the reason why the authorities want him so badly. If Gary had hacked into a toy store's database of merchandise no-one would ever have heard his name. It could therefore be a factor in his defence.
When the jury hear about what he found, possibly corroborated by Dan Burisch/Marcia McDowell, it may persuade them to find him not guilty as a way of sending a message to the "evil PtB" that they want the UFO/free-energy information released to the public.

"paper trail of repair receipts" - are you serious?? Seriously, are you serious??

"where is the evidence that supports Gary innocence?" - defendants are not required to prove their innocence. What country/legal system are you in??

"Even if he really saw what he says he saw, and he had evidence, this would only be evidence of his guilt." - it would be evidence that he is telling the truth about hacking into the systems and finding some very interesting information about off-planet activity (which is something he has already admitted). It would NOT be evidence of causing precisely $5,000 worth of damage per computer (which is what he is being charged with).

"I still maintain that this info Gary claims to have seen, has never been on open servers." - why do you asert this? Who are you? Were they 'open' servers, if it is necessary to hack into them?


Murnut, are you really unable to figure out on your own that the charges against him are trumped up? $5,000 worth of damage per computer - the minimum necessary to bring charges. Not $6,500 here, $7,000 there; no, $5,000 each. Think about it.

I'll ask you once again (with regard to his extradition hearing): how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide any evidence?

[murnut]

Originally Posted by leeboy

do any of you remember or know of robin hood? For those who dont, he basically fought the establishment stole there food and money and dished it out to the poor so they could survive. Isnt what gary did or tried to do a mere modern day version of this. Robin hood is considered a hero of the people. Sometimes we all have to do things that are against the rules to get what we feel in our hearts is right.instead of people judging him and saying he got what he deserved when will the d***heads who are keeping this info to themselves get what they deserve?

ah yes...the ufo vigilante approach.

Two wrong make a right.

Good luck with that

If Gary is a hero of the ufo community, than we don't deserve disclosure.

Heroes face the music, Cowards find excuses

[btsumm]

Gary is not alone...

He will have the strength he needs when he needs it...

Bill and Kerry...please pass this message along to Gary with my love...


Much Love,
Brian

[sunflower]

Message from James Gilliland www.eceti.org expressing support and sympathy for Gary McGinnon. (Yahoo Group)


Entire UFO Community Drops the Ball

It seems in our attempt to bring forward disclosure we have forgotten
one young man which history will eventually reveal as one of the
major players in ending the ufo cover-up. Gary McCannon revealed to
us there are entire fleets of ufos, a navy based space fleet which
has been going back and forth to the moon and mars for quite some
time. Sounds outrageous? Do a search on Gary McCannon and you will
see he has been literally erased from the scene as if he never
existed. With all the ufo lawyers and disclosure organizations one
would think this would be drawing a lot of attention in the ufo
community considering the fact that he is being extradited and facing
70 years.

When I was under fire myself experiencing death threats, car sabotage
and false liens placed against me for speaking out about ufos I went
to the ufo community, yes even the UFO lawyers and disclosure people.
All turned a deaf ear most caught up in their personal agendas
forgetting the contactees and whistle blowers. I also found many in
the community are not who they profess to be and this has become
epidemic. Such is the case with Gary McCannon who has been shoved
aside and ignored by the ufo community. Rather than writing letters
for disclosure why not flood Obama with letters on Gary's behalf. Ask
for a full pardon. He is a hero not a felon and his only crime was
exposing a greater crime and that is the deception of the American
People. Officials swore an oath to defend the constitution and the
American people yet they are operating with no oversight, in total
secrecy often using deadly force spending billions to continue the
ufo cover-up. They are also with holding technologies that would
restore the environment and free the people.

Gary is a symptom of a serious problem within the entire ufo
community and that is there is no community. The ufo community known
to the public is riddled with disinformation agents, selfish agendas
and ill intent or motives that are far from service oriented. I
assure you if it was up to the ufo community we will never hear about
Gary again. Lets make some serious noise about this one. Write the
letters asking for a full investigation by public courts not military
and see who are the real criminals. Those that expose the truth or
those who hide it then engage in criminal activity unchecked to
insure the truth stays hidden. Write these letters first and support
those who are working on Gary's behalf. Believe me I know what it is
like to have these experiences with no one to turn too. I also know
the total lack of support for the truth in the UFO community. Be
well, James Gilliland www.eceti.org

[sunflower]

Another message from James Gilliland:

When passing on this information we did not check the spelling of
Gary's last name. Here are the websites concerning a complete injustice
concerning a man who should get a medal verses 70 years in prison.
Those who are continuing the cover-up, sending astronaughts up into
space on primitive firecrackers keeping alternative energy we
desperately need from the people are the real crimminals. Call on the
disclosure groups to get their priorities in order and take care of
their own. In the past the ufo community is riddled with self interest,
competition etc. Maybe this one selfless act might start a pattern of
cooperation. Be well James Gilliland www.eceti.org
PASS THIS ON TO ALL YOU KNOW

http://freegary. org.uk/

http://video. google.com/ videoplay? docid=-425290280 7834262581

[murnut]

Again, the ufo community puts itself before the well being of Gary.

Shameful....imo

[Antaletriangle]

McKinnon turns to internet fame in extradition battle
http://www.mxlogic.com/securitynews/...-battle535.cfm
Monday, November 10, 2008

Campaigners for Gary McKinnon, the 44-year-old Scot who is facing a 60-year jail sentence in the US after breaching network security at the Pentagon between 2001 and 2003, are hoping a song released on the internet will help him fight extradition.

According to Scotland on Sunday, McKinnon's melancholic track entitled Only a Fool has stormed mySpace charts and is now competing with the likes of Christina Aguilera, the Pussycat Dolls and Rihanna for the title of most viewed video.

He has always fought his extradition, saying that he will be tried under terrorism laws in the US, but his appeal was overturned British law lords in August of this year.

Supporters of McKinnon - who suffers from a form of autism and has claimed that no ill will was directed at the US government - are now hoping that the widespread media exposure will help to raise awareness of his situation.

Meanwhile, Freegary.org.uk is also calling on supporters to lobby president-elect Barack Obama not to try McKinnon under US anti-terror laws.

[Antaletriangle]

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...aw-courts-dump
Myspace bans McKinnon as latest deadline looms-why have they done this??!!
Top tune hacked

By Mark Ballard: Friday, 07 November 2008, 12:56 PM


PENTAGON HACKER Gary McKinnon received a double blow yesterday when Myspace took down his music video and the UK's High Court refused his application for a judicial review.

Gary's music video, Only a Fool, had stormed the Myspace video charts, reaching number three the last time we checked, not three days after it was posted.

His application for a judicial review had sought to prevent his extradition on the grounds that it would be cruel to send him, as a sufferer of Asperger's Syndrome, to a US jail. The government should secure him the right to serve time in a British prison if he was found guilty in a US court, said the application.
Janice Sharp, Gary's Mum and lead campaigner, said that Myspace had removed his video because it was being used to promote his campaign.

She said the High Court had given Gary until 5 December to apply for an oral judicial review. The High Court's refusal yesterday had been for a written review. This may be his last recourse.

Myspace was unable to explain what had happened to the video. But The INQUIRER understands that the video was pulled by someone in the US without explanation.

[freekatz]

myspace is run by a bunch of fascist drones, I've seen many "liberal" people have their pages deleted with no warning or explanation, they also used to scramble links that the Kucinich campaign would put out....pathetic really.

I wonder if we did a big email campaign to Obama the new man of "change" would that help Gary? Has he ever managed to get Larry King involved, he does a lot of UFO stuff?

[martian31v]

YES, email the obama transition team ASAP. the link is provided at http://freegary.org.uk/. address email to Mr. Podesta co-head of obama transition team and outspoken proponent of disclosure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Sz-MgoFos. his last words were disclosure should take place because "it's the LAW". the u.s government has no right to withhold existential information from the human race. there are NO actual national security risks. therefore, gary was only exercising his right know. everyone has the right to know what our reality consists of. the u.s government is breaking the law. gary was merely responding to that injustice. this is NOT a two wrongs makes a right case. if someone attempts to steal your property, you have a right to defend your property. existential information is the property of the human race, which was stolen by the u.s government. gary and every other sentient being has a right to pursue that information by any non-violent means necessary. YES, there is a sound and valid argument to defend gary's actions. we need to advance that position to the obama transition team. WE WANT OUR EXISTENTIAL PROPERTY BACK NOW!!!!!!!

[Antaletriangle]

I've just sent a letter to Obama concerning mckinnon.
I realise my letter isn't the best in the world ;just wanted to be straight to the point.
Hi there; congratulations on becoming president elect,
i would simply like to voice my concern regarding Gary Mckinnon and his potentially soul destroying experiences with the investigations into his computer hacking into your ministry of defence and NASA.
He is simply asking for a trial in his own country and hasn't once stated any innocence concerning his behaviour.Other countries allow their citizens a fair trial at home as he is willing to take punishment for the crimes in hand.
I personally think it would be a great and postive move on your behalf if you'd consider the U.K. for his trial and punishment (which he is willing to serve)
Thankyou for taking the time to read this small yet strong plea to allow him to be tried at home.
I hope you can find a little compassion in this world that we presently live in..Thanks again.
W.

[murnut]

Originally Posted by Antaletriangle

McKinnon turns to internet fame in extradition battle


He has always fought his extradition, saying that he will be tried under terrorism laws in the US, but his appeal was overturned British law lords in August of this year.

This is false...he is not being tried under terrorism laws

[LeBossu]

It's interesting that Billy Cox - "The mainstream media's lonely UFO web log" - is pitching in, and mentioning the John Podesta angle...with just a hint of a threat to the UFO secrecy hawks:-

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pb...ATEGORY=BLOG32

They play these things out in msm...so that's 2 whitehats getting into gear - wonder what the reply will be?

Paul

[Antaletriangle]

Well-i'm glad you stated that; i posted what i read and the link is provided.

[martian31v]

Originally Posted by murnut

ah yes...the ufo vigilante approach.

Two wrong make a right.

Good luck with that

If Gary is a hero of the ufo community, than we don't deserve disclosure.

Heroes face the music, Cowards find excuses

hi mur. i have read all of your posts on this issue, both at avolon and open minds. i think you are confused. as stated above this is NOT a two wrongs makes a right case. (i.e if you punch me in the face, it is o.k for me to steal your pussy cat.) this is a human rights issue. all humans have an equal right to existential information. gary was exercising that right. Therfore gary's actions were justified.

this case is akin to the days when slavery was legal. if a slave escaped, then under the the law of that time he would be found guilty of escaping. likewise, gary was escaping from the mental/existential slavery being imposed on him by the u.s government. we are the existential slaves. the u.s government is the existential slave owner. gary is the slave who has escaped and been caught. will the slaves unite on gary's behalf??? or will the slaves bend over to the will of their master??? in seeking the truth of OUR reality, gary has done nothing wrong. history will see gary as a hero. wanna bet


anyone agreeing with this line of reasoning please contact Mr. Podesta (director of Obama transition team) through the link provided and stand up against our collective existential slavery, because we do deserve disclosure. it is our existential right.

http://change.gov/page/s/contact

[murnut]

Originally Posted by martian31v

hi mur. i have read all of your posts on this issue, both at avolon and open minds. i think you are confused. as stated above this is NOT a two wrongs makes a right case. (i.e if you punch me in the face, i steal your pussy cat.) this is a human rights issue. all humans have an equal right to existential information. gary was exercising that right. Therfore gary's actions were justified.

I believe you are mistaken....Govts are not for the rights of the people...they are about control.

There will always be information that is kept from public view, some of it for our own good.

Most will disagree with the above...hell I would have disagreed with it not too long ago.

But just where does one draw the line fighting evil with evil.

Slippery slope where the ends justify the means.

Your theory would seem to imply that it is okay to steal from the rich to give to the poor?

Who defines who is rich.

The UFO community should not sell its soul, become what they despise in the name of disclosure.

Originally Posted by martian31v

this case is akin to the days when slavery was legal. if a slave escaped, then under the the law of that time he would be found guilty of committing a crime. likewise, gary was escaping from the mental/existential slavery being imposed on him by the u.s government. we are the existential slaves. the u.s government is the existential slave owner. gary is the slave who has escaped and been caught. will the slaves unite on gary's behalf??? or will the slaves bend over to the will of their master??? in seeking the truth of OUR reality, gary has done nothing wrong. history will see gary as a hero. wanna bet

Nice try...I applaud the effort to try to tie this to slavery.

To make your case here, you would have to admit that all forms of govt are wrong, any govt, any rule imposes slavery.

The difference between those that opposed slavery and Gary is that the abolitionist felt so strongly about what they were doing was right, they stood and were counted by serving jail time, and even facing death.

Gary has chickened out for his cause.

Gary has no proof of what he saw....I maintain he saw nothing...the biggest secret in the history of the world was not, has not ever been hooked up to the internet.

Truly if he had actually seen anything, you would have never had heard his name.

He may have been looking for proof I don't doubt.

But since he got caught, he has done nothing but use the ufo community because he does not want to face the music.

And the ufo community is using Gary as well, as way to force disclosure.

As near as I can tell, in my opinion, Gary is a loser for not pleading, and the ufo community is a loser for using a loser to promote it's agenda.

There are real heroes in the ufo community, Gary is self imposed pawn.

He is worthy of pity, and that is about it.


PS I have no problem with him serving his time in Britain, if any.

[martian31v]

Originally Posted by murnut

I believe you are mistaken....Govts are not for the rights of the people...they are about control.

There will always be information that is kept from public view, some of it for our own good.

Most will disagree with the above...hell I would have disagreed with it not too long ago.

But just where does one draw the line fighting evil with evil.

Slippery slope where the ends justify the means.

Your theory would seem to imply that it is okay to steal from the rich to give to the poor?

Who defines who is rich.

The UFO community should not sell its soul, become what they despise in the name of disclosure.



Nice try...I applaud the effort to try to tie this to slavery.

To make your case here, you would have to admit that all forms of govt are wrong, any govt, any rule imposes slavery.

The difference between those that opposed slavery and Gary is that the abolitionist felt so strongly about what they were doing was right, they stood and were counted by serving jail time, and even facing death.

Gary has chickened out for his cause.

Gary has no proof of what he saw....I maintain he saw nothing...the biggest secret in the history of the world was not, has not ever been hooked up to the internet.

Truly if he had actually seen anything, you would have never had heard his name.

He may have been looking for proof I don't doubt.

But since he got caught, he has done nothing but use the ufo community because he does not want to face the music.

And the ufo community is using Gary as well, as way to force disclosure.

As near as I can tell, in my opinion, Gary is a loser for not pleading, and the ufo community is a loser for using a loser to promote it's agenda.

There are real heroes in the ufo community, Gary is self imposed pawn.

He is worthy of pity, and that is about it.


PS I have no problem with him serving his time in Britain, if any.

YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT IS>
wrong... governments are supposed to represent the rights of the people. when they don't (like withhold existential information) we have the right to oppose their oppression. exactly what gary did, therefor his actions are justified.

wrong.... there will not ALWAYS be information withheld from the public. transparency is the way of the future because transparency of information ensures equality. if you need me to elaborate on this point i can.

wrong... not a slippery slope argument. very straight forward. when an injustice is perpetrated by our government, we have a right to combat that injustice by any non-violent means necessary.

wrong... my argument does NOT imply justification for stealing from rich to give to poor. my argument dictates the right to take back what has been stolen from us.

wrong... the ufo community is not selling its soul. it is standing up for what is right. i will state the argument AGAIN. all humans have a right to equal access of existential information. in searching for that information, gary or any other sentient being is justified in their non-violent search.

wrong... in making my case i do not have to prove that all forms of govt are wrong. it is only necessary to show that their particular action of withholding existential information is wrong. therefor justifying gary's search for said infromation.

wrong... the only difference between gary and the abolitionist is that one was a physical slave, and the other a mental/existential slave. both have risked harm to self for sake of greater good.

who cares... there is no point in what gary saw. the point is his motivation for action. what he did or did not see is totally irrelevant.

subjective... the rest of your argument is subjective drivel. the usual route taken by those who fail at responding to an objective argument.

i can continue to squash your arguments, or we can watch the rest of the world series of poker final table.

Gary's actions were just. Express this fact to Mr. Podesta. http://change.gov/page/s/contact

[murnut]

Originally Posted by martian31v

wrong... governments are supposed to represent the rights of the people. when they don't (like withhold existential information) we have the right to oppose their oppression. exactly what gary did, therefor his actions are justified.

wrong.... there will not ALWAYS be information withheld from the public. transparency is the way of the future because transparency of information ensures equality. if you need me to elaborate on this point i can.

wrong... not a slippery slope argument. very straight forward. when an injustice is perpetrated by our government, we have a right to combat that injustice by any non-violent means necessary.

wrong... my argument does NOT imply justification for stealing from rich to give to poor. my argument dictates the right to take back what has been stolen from us.

wrong... the ufo community is not selling its soul. it is standing up for what is right. i will state the argument AGAIN. all humans have a right to equal access of existential information. in searching for that information, gary or any other sentient being is justified in their non-violent search.

wrong... in making my case i do not have to prove that all forms of govt are wrong. it is only necessary to show that their particular action of withholding existential information is wrong. therefor justifying gary's search for said infromation.

wrong... the only difference between gary and the abolitionist is that one was a physical slave, and the other a mental/existential slave. both have risked harm to self for sake of greater good.

who cares... there is no point in what gary saw. the point is his motivation for action. what he did or did not see is totally irrelevant.

subjective... the rest of your argument is subjective drivel. the usual route taken by those who fail at responding to an objective argument.

Far be it for me to rain on your fairy tale view of the world.

Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different.

Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not.

There is no equality, only equality of assimilation.

Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control.

Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything.

There a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.


So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me.

[freekatz]

Murnut, surely you are not trying to imply that computer hacking is "evil"?

You couldn't possibly be putting it on the same level as torture or genocide or any other number of "evil" acts.

Forgive my stupidity if I have misunderstood you....

Originally Posted by murnut

I believe you are mistaken....Govts are not for the rights of the people...they are about control.

"But just where does one draw the line fighting evil with evil.

Slippery slope where the ends justify the means."......

[martian31v]

Originally Posted by murnut

Far be it for me to rain on your fairy tale view of the world.

Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different.

Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not.

There is no equality, only equality of assimilation.

Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control.

Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything.

There a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.


So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me.

WOW, DID I STRIKE A NERVE?

"Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different."
MY POINT EXACTLY... INFORMATION IS SUPPOSED TO BE FREE FOR ALL, BUT IT"S NOT. THEREFOR, GARY'S ACTIONS ARE JUST.

"Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not."
STATING TRANSPARENCY ONLY WORKS IN A PERFECT WORLD ONLY SERVES TO PROVE ITS SUPERIORITY OVER THE LACK THEREOF.

"There is no equality, only equality of assimilation."
RU SERIOUS. BESIDES NOT RELATING AT ALL TO THE GM CASE, EQUALITY JUST IS. IF WE ARE ALL 1 (or equal parts to the whole), THEN WE JUST IS.

"Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control."
GOVERNMENTS HAVE NO RIGHT TO WITHHOLD EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION. IF WE ARE ALL EQUAL PARTS OF A WHOLE, THEN WE AS INDIVIDUALS HAVE AN EQUAL RIGHT TO THE INFORMATION RELATIVE TO THAT WHOLE. WE ARE NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROPERTY OR SLAVE. WE ARE NOT OBJECTS TO BE CONTROLLED. WE ARE TO EQUALLY CO-EXIST.

"Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything."
DUDE YOU NEED TO TAKE LOGIC 101. YES, GOVERNMENTS STEAL FROM US EVERYDAY. THEY STEAL OUR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION AND WE WANT IT BACK... IT'S ACUALY NATURAL THAT THE UFO COMMUNITY ASK FOR AND DEMAND FOR THAT WHICH IS RIGHTFULLY THEIRS. (you sound a little disgruntled with the ufo community. but thats just my opinion.)

THE REST IS MORE IRRATIONAL DRIVEL THAT MAINTAINS NO RELATION WHATSOEVER TO THE UNJUST ARREST OF GARRY McKINNON. CLASSIC SOPHISTRY. ARE YOU A LAWYER, FED, OR SOMEONE WHO JUST CANT ADMITT WHEN HE/SHE IS WRONG.

ACTUALLY READ WHAT MURNUT WRITES AFTER HIS LAST QUOTE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AN EXISTENTAIL ARGUMENT RELEVANT TO THE JUSTIFICATION OF GARY'S ACTIONS. (here is the rest of his confusion.)


"here a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.


So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me."[/QUOTE]


ARE YOU KIDDING. NO PROOF TO U.S COMPLICITY IN WITHHOLDING INFORMATION REGARDING UFO"S??? ARE YOU REALLY GOING STATE THAT??HOW MANY DOCUMENTS DO YOU WANT??? REVERTING BACK TO THAT POSITION, IS TANTAMOUNT TO A COLLEGE GRADUATE GOING BACK TO 1ST GRADE.

GARY IS A SLAVE WHO GOT CAUGHT TRYING TO FLEE HIS SELF-APPOINTED MASTER. WE ARE FELLOW SLAVES WHO SHOULD STAND IN SUPPORT FOR GARY>

WHOEVER YOU ARE. YOU ARE WELL DIS-INFORMED. AND YOUR LAST STATEMENT IMPLYS THAT YOUR LYING.


gary's actions were just. contact Mr Podesta at http://change.gov/page/s/contact

[Antaletriangle]

Everyone has their own opinions on such matters;mine being i think it's a harsh treatment -he's probably already served a life sentence through worry and anxiety.O.K. he's 'done wrong'-i feel this is blown way out of proportion-and where's human compasssion?-This lad's beng tortured for essentially being found out and telling the truth;people talk about setting examples to the younger sector of the populace?-well, i feel the govts. on both sides of 'the pond' aren't setting any precedents for civilised behaviour.Where have the qualities formally known as compassion and understanding vanished to?
With this in mind i find it astonishing that we can call the west a democracy and a civilised community when the very act of running it is based on fear.
He owned up to his activities from the outset and he wishes to serve a sentence for it-now, i think that alone should command at least a little justice in terms of where his trial should be held-it's not asking for the crown jewels!
As far as Jacqui Smith stands, i find her actions highly distasteful as a 'labour' minister and a citizen of the U.K.
She hasn't a clue on the morals of socialism.
Apologies for any negative vibe from this post but everyone has their opinion and i'm with a fair trial in his own country.
it appears that the 'fear factory' is still in full production from how it currently stands.

[murnut]

Originally Posted by freekatz

Murnut, surely you are not trying to imply that computer hacking is "evil"?

You couldn't possibly be putting it on the same level as torture or genocide or any other number of "evil" acts.

Forgive my stupidity if I have misunderstood you....

My fault for not being clear.

The ends do not justify the means.

We lose our moral authority when we rationalize what we do, in response to what we perceive has been done to us.

Hacking may or may not be "evil"...but from what I have read from some of Gary's supporters, escalation of crimes in the name of disclosure, is something that is being considered as "justified"

Do you understand my concern?

[TheGhost]

Good luck, everybody, arguing with Murnut! lol

This guy clearly just doesn't get it. He equates computer hacking with evil, for crying out loud! And he probably thinks we should take his arguments seriously.

Murnut, you really shouldn't confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal, and you shouldn't confuse legal and illegal with lawful and unlawful.

The ends DO justify the means to a certain extent. Every civil right we have was once illegal. Trade unions, civil rights organisation, etc, etc, FOUGHT (physically usually) with police and the authorities to obtain the freedom and rights we enjoy today.

Governments are not benevolent (even the democratic [sic] ones). They do not bestow rights upon their people. Their raison d'être is control and they are constantly trying to tighten the noose around our necks - and are succeeding.

Murnut, you appear to be equating anyone who stands up to the PTB as evil; any action taken against them is evil. Those who stand up to them are as bad as they are. Are you serious, dude??

How many wars has Gary McKinnon started?
How many innocent civilians has he killed through sanctions?
How many people has Gary used as human guinea pigs for experimentation?
How many people (children in particular) have been kidnapped, tortured, raped and ritually sacrificed by Gary?


You imply that he or anyone who stands up to the PTB is evil. What is your definition of evil, please??

NOTHING that ANY of US could EVER do will EVER come close to even being compared in the same sentence to the EVIL that has been and is being committed by the PTB.

Murnut, I think you need a period of serious re-evaluation of your point of view.

[murnut]

Originally Posted by martian31v

WOW, DID I STRIKE A NERVE?

"Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different."
MY POINT EXACTLY... INFORMATION IS SUPPOSED TO BE FREE FOR ALL, BUT IT"S NOT. THEREFOR, GARY'S ACTIONS ARE JUST.

Where in the law does it say all information is owed to the public?

Originally Posted by martian31v

"Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not."
STATING TRANSPARENCY ONLY WORKS IN A PERFECT WORLD ONLY SERVES TO PROVE ITS SUPERIORITY OVER THE LACK THEREOF.

"There is no equality, only equality of assimilation."
RU SERIOUS. BESIDES NOT RELATING AT ALL TO THE GM CASE, EQUALITY JUST IS. IF WE ARE ALL 1 (or equal parts to the whole), THEN WE JUST IS.

I am missing your point here

Originally Posted by martian31v

"Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control."
GOVERNMENTS HAVE NO RIGHT TO WITHHOLD EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION. IF WE ARE ALL EQUAL PARTS OF A WHOLE, THEN WE AS INDIVIDUALS HAVE AN EQUAL RIGHT TO THE INFORMATION RELATIVE TO THAT WHOLE. WE ARE NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROPERTY OR SLAVE. WE ARE NOT OBJECTS TO BE CONTROLLED. WE ARE TO EQUALLY CO-EXIST.

In a perfect world ..yes...this world.... no.

The people have no right to information.

Show me where it says we do please?

Originally Posted by martian31v

"Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything."
DUDE YOU NEED TO TAKE LOGIC 101. YES, GOVERNMENTS STEAL FROM US EVERYDAY. THEY STEAL OUR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION AND WE WANT IT BACK... IT'S ACUALY NATURAL THAT THE UFO COMMUNITY ASK FOR AND DEMAND FOR THAT WHICH IS RIGHTFULLY THEIRS. (you sound a little disgruntled with the ufo community. but thats just my opinion.)

I am extremely disappointed with the ufo community.

Again, there is no right to know National security issues.

You are entitled to disagree.

Originally Posted by martian31v

THE REST IS MORE IRRATIONAL DRIVEL THAT MAINTAINS NO RELATION WHATSOEVER TO THE UNJUST ARREST OF GARRY McKINNON. CLASSIC SOPHISTRY. ARE YOU A LAWYER, FED, OR SOMEONE WHO JUST CANT ADMITT WHEN HE/SHE IS WRONG.

ACTUALLY READ WHAT MURNUT WRITES AFTER HIS LAST QUOTE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AN EXISTENTAIL ARGUMENT RELEVANT TO THE JUSTIFICATION OF GARY'S ACTIONS. (here is the rest of his confusion.)


"here a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.


So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me."


ARE YOU KIDDING. NO PROOF TO U.S COMPLICITY IN WITHHOLDING INFORMATION REGARDING UFO"S??? ARE YOU REALLY GOING STATE THAT??HOW MANY DOCUMENTS DO YOU WANT??? REVERTING BACK TO THAT POSITION, IS TANTAMOUNT TO A COLLEGE GRADUATE GOING BACK TO 1ST GRADE.

GARY IS A SLAVE WHO GOT CAUGHT TRYING TO FLEE HIS SELF-APPOINTED MASTER. WE ARE FELLOW SLAVES WHO SHOULD STAND IN SUPPORT FOR GARY>

WHOEVER YOU ARE. YOU ARE WELL DIS-INFORMED. AND YOUR LAST STATEMENT IMPLYS THAT YOUR LYING.

You are part of the reason why the ufo community is not taken seriously.

You and your kind are damaging serious efforts for disclosure.

Most of the ufo cover up whistle blower testimonies are pure disinfo.

They contradict each other for God's sake.

Yes, the phenomena is real.

Yes, there is a cover up.

Beyond that, there is no proof to what is actually being covered up.

But going back to GM....he and his supporters has misrepresented that facts of his case.

That's lying.

So if he lies about this, what else is he lying about?

[murnut]

Originally Posted by TheGhost

Good luck, everybody, arguing with Murnut! lol

This guy clearly just doesn't get it. He equates computer hacking with evil, for crying out loud! And he probably thinks we should take his arguments seriously.

Murnut, you really shouldn't confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal, and you shouldn't confuse legal and illegal with lawful and unlawful.

The ends DO justify the means to a certain extent. Every civil right we have was once illegal. Trade unions, civil rights organisation, etc, etc, FOUGHT (physically usually) with police and the authorities to obtain the freedom and rights we enjoy today.

Governments are not benevolent (even the democratic [sic] ones). They do not bestow rights upon their people. Their raison d'être is control and they are constantly trying to tighten the noose around our necks - and are succeeding.

Murnut, you appear to be equating anyone who stands up to the PTB as evil; any action taken against them is evil. Those who stand up to them are as bad as they are. Are you serious, dude??

How many wars has Gary McKinnon started?
How many innocent civilians has he killed through sanctions?
How many people has Gary used as human guinea pigs for experimentation?How many people (children in particular) have been kidnapped, tortured, raped and ritually sacrificed by Gary?


You imply that he or anyone who stands up to the PTB is evil. What is your definition of evil, please??

NOTHING that ANY of US could EVER do will EVER come close to even being compared in the same sentence to the EVIL that has been and is being committed by the PTB.

Murnut, I think you need a period of serious re-evaluation of your point of view.

I don't claim that to stand up is wrong...but is that really the message Gary is sending?

He stood up to the point that he decided he did not like the outcome of his actions.

To call him a hero is a disgrace to all the serious researchers.

Anointing Gary as a hero has set back the credibility of serious researchers by years.

================================================== ========


How many here pay their taxes?

Nobody likes to pay them, one might say that we fund the PtB.

So should we just stop paying are taxes because it is "justified"

Or should we work within the law to reduce the burden on us?

Which way is more credible do you think?