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Old 11-17-2008, 02:10 PM   #301
TheGhost
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

"I can make a case that he should have only hacked UK military targets"
I sense some nationalism tainting your point of view here, murnut! Could that be the source of your angst with regard to Gary McKinnon's actions, by any chance?

I am a proud American...does that make me evil?


Don't confuse patriotism with nationalism. 'My country, right or wrong' is nationalism, not patriotism. It is perhaps a subtle but very important distinction. A US patriot would be doing the same kind of thing that Gary was doing.
The oath that Americans take is to defend the CONSTITUTION (not the government) against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. America is overflowing with domestic enemies. However, they don't just threaten the US but the whole world.
The constitution wasn't threatened by Gary! It is however being threatened by US politicians, law makers, military, intelligence, diplomats, bankers, secret society members, etc, etc, etc.
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:26 PM   #302
Greg10036
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I feel for this guy and my prayers are with him.
g.
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:37 PM   #303
EYES WIDE OPEN
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
"I can make a case that he should have only hacked UK military targets"
I sense some nationalism tainting your point of view here, murnut! Could that be the source of your angst with regard to Gary McKinnon's actions, by any chance?

I am a proud American...does that make me evil?


Don't confuse patriotism with nationalism. 'My country, right or wrong' is nationalism, not patriotism. It is perhaps a subtle but very important distinction. A US patriot would be doing the same kind of thing that Gary was doing.
The oath that Americans take is to defend the CONSTITUTION (not the government) against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. America is overflowing with domestic enemies. However, they don't just threaten the US but the whole world.
The constitution wasn't threatened by Gary! It is however being threatened by US politicians, law makers, military, intelligence, diplomats, bankers, secret society members, etc, etc, etc.




Well said. Cant stand patriotism when its in this form. Makes me want to vomit.
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Old 11-17-2008, 06:56 PM   #304
TheGhost
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

"1)All humans are equal under the law."

Quote:
Originally Posted by murnut View Post
My quote is taken out of context...why not include the quote i was replying to?
I don't think I was taking it out of context. If I did, how did you mean it?
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Old 11-17-2008, 07:57 PM   #305
TheGhost
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

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Hacking is moral and just?
That's not what I'm saying, murnut. I am not saying any specific 'crime' is moral or just. Reversing my argument like you have tried to do is not an appropriate response.
The fact that this kind of information (extraterrestrial life, free energy) is surpressed is detrimental to the ENTIRE human race. If hacking is what was necessary to get hold of some of this information then yes, it was justified.

I expect you would counter this with something like, 'Well, if murder is what was necessary would you say that was justified, too?'

My response would be 'yes'. I don't support murdering people or starting wars; I would like to think that people are more intelligent than having to resort to it. But if people did not resist what they consider to be tyranny to the ultimate extent (causing the death of those who are oppressing you) would the United States of America ever have existed?

Also, this is the reason you have the second amendment. It is not simply about being allowed to own a gun. It allows for the PEOPLE to maintain a well armed militia to be used as a last resort (asuming all other avenues of resistance have been exhausted) against the GOVERNMENT when it inevitably 'goes bad' (as power tends to corrupt).
The founders would not have put it in there if they didn't think it might be necessary, one day. The US government went bad a long time ago and it has been metastasising ever since. Now it looks like the whole body is about to go into total system failure.

You might think that my point of view is a little extreme but consider this: a slave sees an opportunity to get away from his slave-master, to freedom, but he has to kill the slave-master first. The kind of person who would own a slave is not the kind of person who would take any notice of the protests of the slave.
He would laugh at his requests to be set free. He would have fits of laughter, rolling on the floor, over the slave's protests that he should have equal rights as the slave-master and be treated equally and fairly. If the slave became aggressive he would be physically assaulted to put him back in line. If the slave became uncooperative he would not be fed till he started 'behaving' again.
The only 'protest' left open to the slave is to kill the person who considers him to be their property. In this situation the slave's actions are perfectly justified. The slave has a birth right (or God-given right, if you want to think of it in those terms) to be free. The slave-master has absolutely no rights over the slave whatsoever. The slave-master is committing a crime against nature. The slave's actions are restoring the natural order.

Your argument that the UFO community should only stick to 'legal' means is ridiculous. You are like the slave tugging on the tailcoats of your slave-master asking for him to be nice to you, to throw you a few more crumbs from the dinner table for your supper.
You accept your position as subserviant to the government or the PTB or the inteligence agencies or the secret societies or whoever. You are NOT subserviant. You have as much right to all this information as they do. If they won't give it to you you have to be prepared to take it.

Operate within legal means all you can, but all they have to do is pass another law to make your previously legal actions illegal. Then what are you going to do? Give up, forget about it, be a good little slave? Serve them well, murnut, they might let you eat at the dinner table one day, who knows?
Freedom of Information Act requests with regard to UFOs or free energy technology or anything THEY want kept secret are simply laughed at. The legal means of fight the PTB have long been exhausted.


Murnut, you really need to get over this 'legal' nonsense. Most of the actions of the government in Nazi Germany were legal. The actions of the Soviet empire within its territories were legal. Governments pass laws all the time to make their crimes 'legal' (for example, the recent theft by the US government of $700B from you, your children, your grandchildren - the wealth of future generations stolen from them before a lot of them have even been born). Big Brother is not a benevolent big brother. He is a nasty, stinking piece of 5h1t that needs to be flushed down the fcuking toilet!

Last edited by TheGhost; 11-17-2008 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:27 PM   #306
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
"I have no opinion on the extradition law."
This is what I mean about ducking questions. You don't need to know about the Extradition Act 2003, specifically, or have an opinion on that law, specifically.
The point of the question is about the act circumventing the centuries old principle of prima facie evidence being presented by the prosecution.

What is your opinion on the situation that people can now be extradited on the CLAIM of a crime without the prosecution being burdened with the need to produce EVIDENCE of the crime?

You say he'll get a chance to defend himself in the US. He shouldn't even be faced with the possibility of being extradited in the first place and be put into the situation where he has the 'opportunity' to defend himself in a US court.
My only opinion, as stated before is that Gary's lawyers have appealed to the British and European courts and lost.

Gary admitted to the hacking by the way.

Isn't that evidence?

My guess is that you will say "No"
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:29 PM   #307
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
"I can make a case that he should have only hacked UK military targets"
I sense some nationalism tainting your point of view here, murnut! Could that be the source of your angst with regard to Gary McKinnon's actions, by any chance?

I am a proud American...does that make me evil?


Don't confuse patriotism with nationalism. 'My country, right or wrong' is nationalism, not patriotism. It is perhaps a subtle but very important distinction. A US patriot would be doing the same kind of thing that Gary was doing.
The oath that Americans take is to defend the CONSTITUTION (not the government) against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. America is overflowing with domestic enemies. However, they don't just threaten the US but the whole world.
The constitution wasn't threatened by Gary! It is however being threatened by US politicians, law makers, military, intelligence, diplomats, bankers, secret society members, etc, etc, etc.
America is wrong plenty of times...we may be wrong this time.

However, I think your beef is more with the UK than USA
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:31 PM   #308
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

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Originally Posted by EYES WIDE OPEN View Post
Well said. Cant stand patriotism when its in this form. Makes me want to vomit.
How about a specific quote of mine that confirms this conclusion?
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:38 PM   #309
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
"1)All humans are equal under the law."



I don't think I was taking it out of context. If I did, how did you mean it?

Go back and look at the post I was replying to.

Martian said all men are created equal.

I was only implying that men are equal under the law.

In fact all men (and women) are given equal protection under the law.

All men and women are not equal...other wise we would all be the same.

Gary is entitled to due process.

If you want to conclude that the UK law allowing his extradition is against the law...then okay.

I understand your point.

Gary has had numerous appeals and lost everyone.

But your problem should be with the UK govt.
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:42 PM   #310
TheGhost
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by murnut View Post
My only opinion, as stated before is that Gary's lawyers have appealed to the British and European courts and lost.

Gary admitted to the hacking by the way.

Isn't that evidence?

My guess is that you will say "No"
You are still ducking the question that I posed.
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Old 11-17-2008, 10:08 PM   #311
TheGhost
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by murnut View Post
Go back and look at the post I was replying to.

Martian said all men are created equal.

I was only implying that men are equal under the law.

In fact all men (and women) are given equal protection under the law.

All men and women are not equal...other wise we would all be the same.

Gary is entitled to due process.

If you want to conclude that the UK law allowing his extradition is against the law...then okay.

I understand your point.

Gary has had numerous appeals and lost everyone.

But your problem should be with the UK govt.
OMfG, equality does not mean sameness. You have a lot of growing up to do, murnut!

My problem is with the UK government - I have repeatedly said the politicians who pushed the extradition act through committed treason. I also consider the US government/Shadow government and military establishment of the US & UK to be committing crimes in this whole situation, not least of which is the surpression of the existence of extraterrestrial life and free-energy technology.
On a down-to-earth level it is the free-energy technology that is the real reason for the surpression of the existence of ETs. On a higher level it is the loss of control over us - spiritually, mentally and emotionally - that is the reason for the surpression.


"Gary is entitled to due process."
You are absolutely right. For nearly eight centuries prior to 2004 Gary would have had due process. The Extradition Act 2003 circumvents his right to due process and gives the prosecution the 'right' to demand his extradition without the need to burden themselves with providing evidence against him.

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence against you, murnut?

How would you defend yourself in a court if the prosecution wasn't required to provide evidence that you committed a crime? i.e. the prosecution's CLAIM that you committed one was enough for the judge to sentence you? How do you defend yourself against that?
I would like an answer to this question, murnut. You have repeatedly dodged this question and instead sprouted out self-righteous bull5h1t.

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?

You are spot on that Gary is entitled to due process.

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?

This is the key question, IMHO, in the whole matter.

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?

The current legal situation violates PRINCIPLES of law and justice that have been around for nearly EIGHT CENTURIES!

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?
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Old 11-17-2008, 10:23 PM   #312
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
That's not what I'm saying, murnut. I am not saying any specific 'crime' is moral or just. Reversing my argument like you have tried to do is not an appropriate response.
Ghost...I like you...this is just a friendly debate.

I realize that my opinion is the minority

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
The fact that this kind of information (extraterrestrial life, free energy) is surpressed is detrimental to the ENTIRE human race.
There is no proof that what you allude to is the case.

There could be excellent reasons why nothing has been released...the main one being that the PtB, govts are just as clueless as the rest of us.

You could never believe this...right?

Spy and counter spy releases aimed at foreign powers with those in the ufo community as hapless messengers of convenience.

It is well known the CIA promoted ufo's as cover for Advanced Jets.

Gee...ya think they would let it slip that we have reversed engineered a saucer to keep the enemies of the USA guessing?



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
If hacking is what was necessary to get hold of some of this information then yes, it was justified.

I expect you would counter this with something like, 'Well, if murder is what was necessary would you say that was justified, too?'

My response would be 'yes'. I don't support murdering people or starting wars; I would like to think that people are more intelligent than having to resort to it. But if people did not resist what they consider to be tyranny to the ultimate extent (causing the death of those who are oppressing you) would the United States of America ever have existed?
So if it is morally correct...why won't Gary stand up?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
Also, this is the reason you have the second amendment. It is not simply about being allowed to own a gun. It allows for the PEOPLE to maintain a well armed militia to be used as a last resort (asuming all other avenues of resistance have been exhausted) against the GOVERNMENT when it inevitably 'goes bad' (as power tends to corrupt).
The founders would not have put it in there if they didn't think it might be necessary, one day. The US government went bad a long time ago and it has been metastasising ever since. Now it looks like the whole body is about to go into total system failure.
What? You don't believe the Obama hype?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
You might think that my point of view is a little extreme but consider this: a slave sees an opportunity to get away from his slave-master, to freedom, but he has to kill the slave-master first. The kind of person who would own a slave is not the kind of person who would take any notice of the protests of the slave.
He would laugh at his requests to be set free. He would have fits of laughter, rolling on the floor, over the slave's protests that he should have equal rights as the slave-master and be treated equally and fairly. If the slave became aggressive he would be physically assaulted to put him back in line. If the slave became uncooperative he would not be fed till he started 'behaving' again.
The only 'protest' left open to the slave is to kill the person who considers him to be their property. In this situation the slave's actions are perfectly justified. The slave has a birth right (or God-given right, if you want to think of it in those terms) to be free. The slave-master has absolutely no rights over the slave whatsoever. The slave-master is committing a crime against nature. The slave's actions are restoring the natural order.

Comparing Gary's case to slavery is ridiculous...imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
Your argument that the UFO community should only stick to 'legal' means is ridiculous. You are like the slave tugging on the tailcoats of your slave-master asking for him to be nice to you, to throw you a few more crumbs from the dinner table for your supper.
You accept your position as subserviant to the government or the PTB or the inteligence agencies or the secret societies or whoever. You are NOT subserviant. You have as much right to all this information as they do. If they won't give it to you you have to be prepared to take it.

Do we have a right to know what the govts know about anything?

What about God?

Are they covering up that as well?

And if they actually did release what little they do know...you Ghost will not believe it.

Do you believe the official 9-11 story?

I am sure you do not.

Why turn to the govt for your truth when they are clearly not in the truth business?

All through time govts have lied to the people for various reasons...would you agree?

This I can guarantee...100%...disclosure when and if it comes, will not be what you expect, nor will it resemble in any way..."truth"


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
Operate within legal means all you can, but all they have to do is pass another law to make your previously legal actions illegal. Then what are you going to do? Give up, forget about it, be a good little slave? Serve them well, murnut, they might let you eat at the dinner table one day, who knows?
Freedom of Information Act requests with regard to UFOs or free energy technology or anything THEY want kept secret are simply laughed at. The legal means of fight the PTB have long been exhausted.
If the ufo community desires respect from the other 90% of the worlds population, then the U.C. has to be ever vigilant...not to lie, not commit crimes of any kind, not to use the same tactics that have been used against us.

Because then we are no better than those who you perceive to "oppress" us.

New Boss, Same as the old Boss...remember that song?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
Murnut, you really need to get over this 'legal' nonsense. Most of the actions of the government in Nazi Germany were legal. The actions of the Soviet empire within its territories were legal. Governments pass laws all the time to make their crimes 'legal' (for example, the recent theft by the US government of $700B from you, your children, your grandchildren - the wealth of future generations stolen from them before a lot of them have even been born). Big Brother is not a benevolent big brother. He is a nasty, stinking piece of 5h1t that needs to be flushed down the fcuking toilet!
To be replaced by who or what exactly?

Govts...ALL govts (Big Brother) are about control and always will be.

The Utopia you desire cannot happen while we are actually still human.

I wish I could tell you differently, but this is a sad fact.

Now I was against the 700 billion and counting bailout that is a theft.

But hacking a bank or the govt would not get me any where except jail.

So I won't do that, because I am thinking about the consequences of my actions in the actual society I live in...not some utopia where one decides that the morality of the ufo cover up is the same as human slavery, and therefore the ends justifies the means.

If Gary really believed this as you have written Ghost...he would have stood up and faced the charges like a man.

But he does not believe as you do Ghost, he is using you.
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Old 11-17-2008, 10:30 PM   #313
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

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Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
You are still ducking the question that I posed.
The question has been answered...or perhaps you don't like the answer...or perhaps I have misinterpreted the question.
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Old 11-17-2008, 11:44 PM   #314
TheGhost
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

"To be replaced by who or what exactly?"
I said nothing whatsoever about replacing them at all. This is the level at which you are thinking - you asume they should or need to be replaced; I do not.

"he would have stood up and faced the charges like a man"
This goes back to the same argumement. He should not be facing charges from the US in the first place.

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence against you?

"The Utopia you desire"
What the hell are you talking about? When did I ever mention anything about Utopia (not that I desire one, as Utopia is the false paradise promised by satan, just FYI)? I have been making legal points about Gary's case and you talk about Utopia. Get on the right page, murnut! lol

"the U.C. has to be ever vigilant...not to lie, not commit crimes of any kind, not to use the same tactics that have been used against us."
See what I said in the previous posts - all the government has to do is pass another law to make previously legal actions illegal. And, every civil right we have was once illegal!
You need to get over this obsession with legality. It is childish in the extreme. I'm not trying to insult you, murnut, but you are making it very difficult! You know that phrase, 'thinking outside the box'? You are in a very small, dark box at the moment. You need to expand your mind to consider actions that the government (the ones who are oppressing you) have deemed to be illegal. They will make anything illegal that they have to, to maintain the status quo.
What if they made simply asking questions about UFOs illegal? What if they banned all UFO related books, videos, DVDs, banned anyone talking publically about it? What if they, essentially, introduced prohibition where it comes to ETs?

As for using the same tactics as them, we (the general public) do not have the resources to do that. But, they have been very effective, so why not use the same tactics against the PTB?

The 90% of the world's population that you speak of will, if they ever stop watching football, soap operas and reality TV, only take notice of the results, not the method. Paradigm changing information like this will get their attention. 'Illegal' methods used to obtain it will pale into insignificance next to the information itself. No-one will care about who got it or how or anything like that. You and the rest of the UFO community do not need to worry about gaining the 'respect' of the masses. You are not that important. Even if you, murnut, were the one to finally reveal the 'truth' to everyone, the truth would overshadow you by a long way.

"Comparing Gary's case to slavery is ridiculous...imo."
I wasn't actually comparing Gary's case to slavery. I was comparing the truth embargo on UFOs/ETs/free energy to the situation a slave might find himself in. I was giving an example of how RIGHTS are not something awarded to you as a privilege by a government, or master, they are something you have by way of being born. When non-violent protests are exhausted (against someone who is violating your rights) violence is the only thing left. Acquiescence to the situation would be a crime against yourself.

"So if it is morally correct...why won't Gary stand up?"
Gary did stand up, because it is morally correct, by hacking in the first place. His actions (hacking) were morally correct because it is immoral to surpress free energy technology when in the UK alone 50,000 elderly people a year freeze to death. God knows how many die in this way in the US and elsewhere.

Gary's actions were morally correct. But his legal situation is another story all together. Do you know how the legal system works? Do you know that even simple words like 'must' have a different meaning in the law to what they do in plain English? The legal system is a completely different beast.

But again, we go back to the same argument. He shouldn't even be faced with the situation of being extradited to a foreign country for 'crimes' that occured in Britain. The CPS refused to prosecute him here. He did face justice and their conclusion was to throw out the case against him.

Then comes the Extradition Act 2003. It is made retroactive which is a highly unusual move and violates lots of well established (just a few centuries' worth) principles of law and justice. It gets rid of the need for the prosecution to provide prima facie evidence (again, just a few centuries' worth of well established law) and essentially puts Gary into a situation he should never have been facing.

When his 'crimes' were committed, facing extradition to a foreign country with no evidence being presented by the prosecution and facing a possible 70 year jail term were NOT the consequences of his actions. A possible sentence for him would have been 6 months' community service IF found guilty, but like I said the case was thrown out of court.


I don't think any of your answers actually answered any of the points I made, or perhaps maybe vaguely once or twice. This is what I meant in a previous post about you giving vague or generic answers that don't actually answer the points. Sure, you've quoted my comments but your answer doesn't actually ANSWER the point being made. Sorry for repeating myself; I feel it necessary.
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Old 11-18-2008, 12:27 AM   #315
martian31v
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

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My dear Martian,

You are entirely too emotional in your responses. Because you want things to be a certain way does not make it so. Perhaps you could point out to me any time throughout history when man has not perpetrated injustices upon other men? My reasoning supports no one group and no one person, it supports the truth. I am relatively unattached to needing things to be different than they are, so unlike you, I have a very minor agenda of "shoulds".

Your "foundational assumption" that all men are created equal is just that, an assumption. It's a lovely sounding assumption, but not based in reality. Of course all souls are equal, ultimately, but all bodies are not equal and the minds that control the bodies are also not equal. Perhaps another look into the actual meaning of the word "equal" would be advisable. As far as "human rights", that's a creation of man. We have the "rights" that we are able to envision, take for ourselves and retain, either by intelligence or enforcement. The last time I looked, man was still enmeshed in the survival of the fittest scenario here on the earthplane.

Nowhere in what I said in my previous post was there even a hint that I thought "injustices were right", in fact, for you to come to that conclusion shows me that your vested interest in having your theories upheld contributes to your inability to see reality. In addition, saying that my statements "support every fascist dictatorship" is patently absurd in the extreme. I don't "support" anything in my statements or outlook, I observe reality and state it as it is.

Emotionality and attachment blind one to truth, and personal attacks on another because you feel threatened are a great weakness. It appears to me that you are probably relatively young and inexperienced, but do not despair, you have lots of time, in fact you have eternity.

Nancy
my dear nancy,
you are entirely correct about my emotions and the negative affect they played in my communications with you and murnut. one of these days i will learn that lesson. i do apologize to you both for my tone and language.

from one perspective your views on "shoulds" is appealing and admirable. not an easy perspective to live from, especially in this world. but from another perspective "shoulds" or "intentions" are the means toward creating a new realty, and a necessary aspect of our free will. if i am not satisfied with my/our reality, then i am inherently required to attempt a change. "should", then becomes the responsibility of those who seek change.

the fact that man has consistently perpetrated injustices, should not lead to the conclusion that those injustices are inevitable. we live in a reality that is constantly changing, and we have the ability to participate in that process of change. therefor, "should" is a necessary aspect of our reality. "should" is the impetus of creation.

the assumption that all humans are created equal is a necessary assumption in the process of defining human rights. if we do not start with that fundamental assumption, then it is possible for any group or individual to claim superiority over another. the fact that some humans already claim superiority over others does not negate the necessity of this assumption. if all souls are created equal and all human body's maintain a soul, then all human body's are created equal. this is true despite our actions to the contrary.

if that premise holds and you agree to the 2nd premise (sequestering of information leads to inequity of knowlege leading to inequity of power), then a conclusion of an inherent right to pursue existential information seems to naturally follow.

if interested in continuing debate, i promise to remain unattached and void of childish insults. i do apologize. thank you for calling me out, martian
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Old 11-18-2008, 02:17 AM   #316
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

We agree on very little and apparently suffer from a failure to communicate.

I will try to be clearer, but you may never get the points I am making


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post

"he would have stood up and faced the charges like a man"
This goes back to the same argumement. He should not be facing charges from the US in the first place.

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence against you?
There has been no prosecution as of yet....but if you refer to the extradition...check the House of Lords ruling.

You will find your answer there
http://www.publications.parliament.u...0/mckinn-1.htm



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
"The Utopia you desire"
What the hell are you talking about? When did I ever mention anything about Utopia (not that I desire one, as Utopia is the false paradise promised by satan, just FYI)? I have been making legal points about Gary's case and you talk about Utopia. Get on the right page, murnut! lol
The utopia where folks only follow laws they think are moral.

What about the Islamic extremists?

I am sure they think their actions are morally justified.

Hacking is wrong.

In my opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
"the U.C. has to be ever vigilant...not to lie, not commit crimes of any kind, not to use the same tactics that have been used against us."
See what I said in the previous posts - all the government has to do is pass another law to make previously legal actions illegal. And, every civil right we have was once illegal!
You need to get over this obsession with legality. It is childish in the extreme. I'm not trying to insult you, murnut, but you are making it very difficult! You know that phrase, 'thinking outside the box'? You are in a very small, dark box at the moment. You need to expand your mind to consider actions that the government (the ones who are oppressing you) have deemed to be illegal. They will make anything illegal that they have to, to maintain the status quo.
What if they made simply asking questions about UFOs illegal? What if they banned all UFO related books, videos, DVDs, banned anyone talking publically about it? What if they, essentially, introduced prohibition where it comes to ETs?
I don't think I like your tone.

I speak out against the govt all the time...the bailout, 911, wars.

I don't resort to breaking the law...because I don't want to go to jail.

If I get a speeding ticket, I pay it.

I pay my mortgage, because if I don't, the evil bank will take my house.

Opposition to perceived unjust laws are fine.

But the manner of the opposition should not be as morally wrong....in my opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
As for using the same tactics as them, we (the general public) do not have the resources to do that. But, they have been very effective, so why not use the same tactics against the PTB?
Because it is wrong



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
The 90% of the world's population that you speak of will, if they ever stop watching football, soap operas and reality TV, only take notice of the results, not the method. Paradigm changing information like this will get their attention. 'Illegal' methods used to obtain it will pale into insignificance next to the information itself. No-one will care about who got it or how or anything like that. You and the rest of the UFO community do not need to worry about gaining the 'respect' of the masses. You are not that important. Even if you, murnut, were the one to finally reveal the 'truth' to everyone, the truth would overshadow you by a long way.
I doubt you would ever believe what the real truth is



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
"Comparing Gary's case to slavery is ridiculous...imo."
I wasn't actually comparing Gary's case to slavery. I was comparing the truth embargo on UFOs/ETs/free energy to the situation a slave might find himself in. I was giving an example of how RIGHTS are not something awarded to you as a privilege by a government, or master, they are something you have by way of being born. When non-violent protests are exhausted (against someone who is violating your rights) violence is the only thing left. Acquiescence to the situation would be a crime against yourself.

Truth embargo?

Govts are not about truth...try a church.

Govts lie...this will never change.

When and if there is disclosure, you won't believe it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
"So if it is morally correct...why won't Gary stand up?"
Gary did stand up, because it is morally correct, by hacking in the first place. His actions (hacking) were morally correct because it is immoral to surpress free energy technology when in the UK alone 50,000 elderly people a year freeze to death. God knows how many die in this way in the US and elsewhere.

Gary's actions were morally correct. But his legal situation is another story all together. Do you know how the legal system works? Do you know that even simple words like 'must' have a different meaning in the law to what they do in plain English? The legal system is a completely different beast.
We disagree on what morality is apparently.

Morality is standing up for what is right no matter what the consequences.

Gary refuses to face his.





Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
But again, we go back to the same argument. He shouldn't even be faced with the situation of being extradited to a foreign country for 'crimes' that occured in Britain. The CPS refused to prosecute him here. He did face justice and their conclusion was to throw out the case against him.
I understand this argument, however your courts felt differently.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
Then comes the Extradition Act 2003. It is made retroactive which is a highly unusual move and violates lots of well established (just a few centuries' worth) principles of law and justice. It gets rid of the need for the prosecution to provide prima facie evidence (again, just a few centuries' worth of well established law) and essentially puts Gary into a situation he should never have been facing.
He admitted hacking...this is considered evidence.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
When his 'crimes' were committed, facing extradition to a foreign country with no evidence being presented by the prosecution and facing a possible 70 year jail term were NOT the consequences of his actions. A possible sentence for him would have been 6 months' community service IF found guilty, but like I said the case was thrown out of court.
An admission of guilt is considered evidence...and US sentencing guidelines probably puts him at 5 years.

Show me a case where a hacker has served more than 5 years in the US


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
I don't think any of your answers actually answered any of the points I made, or perhaps maybe vaguely once or twice. This is what I meant in a previous post about you giving vague or generic answers that don't actually answer the points. Sure, you've quoted my comments but your answer doesn't actually ANSWER the point being made. Sorry for repeating myself; I feel it necessary.
I answered everyone of your points...you just don't like my answers
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Old 11-18-2008, 02:02 PM   #317
TheGhost
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

"Show me a case where a hacker has served more than 5 years in the US"

Show me a case where a hacker has hacked into all the places Gary did and saw all the things he did. And where laws are CHANGED and made RETROACTIVE in a country by TRAITOROUS politicians to allow the hacker to be extradited, WITHOUT evidence of a crime being presented at his extradition trial, to a foreign country. Nothing about Gary's case is run-of-the-mill.

He is facing an exceptionally extreme and illegal set of circumstances. People are committing treason to get him over to the States! Gary will be lucky if the plane he gets sent over on doesn't crash into the Atlantic.

No-one goes to all the trouble that the US/UK authorities have over a simple hacking case. The fact that they have gone to such lengths (changing laws, ignoring centuries old principles of law, committing treason, etc) shows that what he saw - or may have seen, as you don't believe he saw anything that he claims to - is obviously the reason they have gone to such extremes. His actions rattled them. They are not going to give him the usual punishment any other hacker might get.
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:12 PM   #318
freekatz
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by murnut View Post
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...ciTech_4306168



Brit Hacker Loses U.S. Extradition Appeal
LONDON, July 30, 2008(AP) Some call it the biggest hack of military computers; perhaps it was just a big embarrassment.

Gary McKinnon — accused of breaking into military and NASA computers in what he claims was a search for UFOs, allegedly causing nearly $1 million in damage — has lost his appeal for extradition to the United States............


Should McKinnon be extradited, he would face trial in Virginia and New Jersey on eight charges of computer fraud.

Each charge potentially carries a sentence of up to 10 years in prison and $250,000 in fines. However, U.S. sentencing guidelines would likely recommend a much lighter sentence.

Murnut, I don't mean this in an offensive way but are you just trying to wind everyone up? This is an open forum and everyone is free to post opposing views and debates but, so far in this post I haven't seen you write anything of any relevance other than to keep repeating that Gary broke the law and two wrongs don't make a right. Do you honestly feel so passionately about that? Are you seriously basing your whole argument on the above feeble quote which means absolutely nothing in reality?? Do you sit back and chuckle as you watch people jumping into the fray, knowing that it will go nowhere as you present no real argument?

Seeing as you feel so strongly about the sanctity of man-made laws let me ask you this:

When the French Resistance were hiding people from the Nazis were they wrong for breaking the laws that were in effect at that time (whether it was an occupying army or not, laws are laws)?

Was Ghandi wrong for practicing civil disobedience against the British and deserving of the full punishment of the law?

If the US government declares martial law and some of the soldiers and police refuse to round civilians up should they be punished for defying laws that have been enacted at that time?

I'm just trying to understand your logic, do you feel laws are laws and should never be broken or is it ok in instances when it doesn't harm anyone and may even be of benefit, do you see any grey areas? I'm sure it could be argued that my examples are not valid as I am not quoting actual written laws but I'm sure you get the gist.

All the best to you, I do come in peace
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:19 PM   #319
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGhost View Post
"Show me a case where a hacker has served more than 5 years in the US"

Show me a case where a hacker has hacked into all the places Gary did and saw all the things he did. And where laws are CHANGED and made RETROACTIVE in a country by TRAITOROUS politicians to allow the hacker to be extradited, WITHOUT evidence of a crime being presented at his extradition trial, to a foreign country. Nothing about Gary's case is run-of-the-mill.

He is facing an exceptionally extreme and illegal set of circumstances. People are committing treason to get him over to the States! Gary will be lucky if the plane he gets sent over on doesn't crash into the Atlantic.

No-one goes to all the trouble that the US/UK authorities have over a simple hacking case. The fact that they have gone to such lengths (changing laws, ignoring centuries old principles of law, committing treason, etc) shows that what he saw - or may have seen, as you don't believe he saw anything that he claims to - is obviously the reason they have gone to such extremes. His actions rattled them. They are not going to give him the usual punishment any other hacker might get.
Gary saw nothing...I repeat...nothing.

You would have never of heard of him if he did....and the greatest secret ever is not hooked to the internet, not now or ever.

Gary has played you, he has lied about the potential charges, and he is probably lying about what he saw.
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:29 PM   #320
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by freekatz View Post
Murnut, I don't mean this in an offensive way but are you just trying to wind everyone up? This is an open forum and everyone is free to post opposing views and debates but, so far in this post I haven't seen you write anything of any relevance other than to keep repeating that Gary broke the law and two wrongs don't make a right. Do you honestly feel so passionately about that? Are you seriously basing your whole argument on the above feeble quote which means absolutely nothing in reality?? Do you sit back and chuckle as you watch people jumping into the fray, knowing that it will go nowhere as you present no real argument?

Seeing as you feel so strongly about the sanctity of man-made laws let me ask you this:

When the French Resistance were hiding people from the Nazis were they wrong for breaking the laws that were in effect at that time (whether it was an occupying army or not, laws are laws)?

Was Ghandi wrong for practicing civil disobedience against the British and deserving of the full punishment of the law?

If the US government declares martial law and some of the soldiers and police refuse to round civilians up should they be punished for defying laws that have been enacted at that time?

I'm just trying to understand your logic, do you feel laws are laws and should never be broken or is it ok in instances when it doesn't harm anyone and may even be of benefit, do you see any grey areas? I'm sure it could be argued that my examples are not valid as I am not quoting actual written laws but I'm sure you get the gist.

All the best to you, I do come in peace
I speak out against the govt all the time...legally.

However if I felt it necessary to break the law I would do so gladly.

And look forward to my day in court. Not try to weasel out of it.

Ghandi accepted his punishment....get it?

French resistance and Gary?

Those folks put their lives on the line...Gary cant even bear to face trial.

When and if the US declares martial law, I am ready for it...thank-you.

You obviously have read my posts...but have no understanding of the meaning.

Some will get it, others never will
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:44 PM   #321
Orion Morris
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I seriously doubt that you are ready for martial law....
Have you ever been to jail buddy? I doubt it! You cannot say that because Gary is avoiding trial that he is not facing the music...

Hackers go to jail for alot longer than 5 years all the time...

Their was a guy here not that long ago that just got 17 years...

You talk big.... but you have no idea...

Quit picking fights with everybody... who cares what you think about Gary... He is in a totally different boat than you... drop it...




Quote:
Originally Posted by murnut View Post
I speak out against the govt all the time...legally.

However if I felt it necessary to break the law I would do so gladly.

And look forward to my day in court. Not try to weasel out of it.

Ghandi accepted his punishment....get it?

French resistance and Gary?

Those folks put their lives on the line...Gary cant even bear to face trial.

When and if the US declares martial law, I am ready for it...thank-you.

You obviously have read my posts...but have no understanding of the meaning.

Some will get it, others never will
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:58 PM   #322
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Morris View Post
I seriously doubt that you are ready for martial law....

Your opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Morris View Post
Have you ever been to jail buddy? I doubt it! You cannot say that because Gary is avoiding trial that he is not facing the music...
Yes, I can...Heroes stand up, cowards don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Morris View Post
Hackers go to jail for alot longer than 5 years all the time...

Their was a guy here not that long ago that just got 17 years...
Got a link?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Morris View Post
You talk big.... but you have no idea...

Quit picking fights with everybody... who cares what you think about Gary... He is in a totally different boat than you... drop it...
Who is picking a fight?

Me?

I am entitled to post my opinion.

I guess you are one of those pro-censorship types

UFO vigilantes hurt the credibility of the UFO community at large....the serious researchers like Leslie Kean, and Stanton Friedman.

That's my opinion, and I could care less about who agrees with me.

If y'all want me to stop posting, stop replying to me.....or ask the mods to ban me.

But I will have been banned for my opinion
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:06 PM   #323
Orion Morris
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Here is your link... couldnt find the exact one... but these should make my point...
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/38012/118/
http://www.securityfocus.com/news/10138

What have you been to jail for... For some reason I dont believe you because I have never met anybody who has done time who feels like it is no big deal... "Just face the music." you sound like a kid...

No I am not pro cencorship... but it is "wrong to break laws." remember...

I would never report you or ask to have you banned...





Quote:
Originally Posted by murnut View Post
Your opinion



Yes, I can...Heroes stand up, cowards don't.



Got a link?



Who is picking a fight?

Me?

I am entitled to post my opinion.

I guess you are one of those pro-censorship types

UFO vigilantes hurt the credibility of the UFO community at large....the serious researchers like Leslie Kean, and Stanton Friedman.

That's my opinion, and I could care less about who agrees with me.

If y'all want me to stop posting, stop replying to me.....or ask the mods to ban me.

But I will have been banned for my opinion
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:24 PM   #324
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Morris View Post
Here is your link... couldnt find the exact one... but these should make my point...
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/38012/118/
He has not been sentenced yet...neither has Gary.

I am willing to bet he receives a suspended sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Morris View Post
With credit for time served and good behavior, Salcedo will be eligible for release in the fall of 2011.

2 to 3 years....try again...and maybe next time read the story first...hehe.

Do you really believe Gary will get more time than an actual thief?

He won't...but even a thief cut his losses and plead out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Morris View Post
What have you been to jail for... For some reason I dont believe you because I have never met anybody who has done time who feels like it is no big deal... "Just face the music." you sound like a kid...

No I am not pro cencorship... but it is "wrong to break laws." remember...

I would never report you or ask to have you banned...
I never said I had been sentenced to jail.

What law have I broken?

I apparently am continually being misunderstood here....or maybe many feel there is nothing wrong with vigilantism.

Once you cross the line, just how do you decide where to stop?

Hacking, theft by deception, blackmail...all victimless right?

Will this help serious research?

NO
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:33 PM   #325
Orion Morris
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

You must not understand that you will never be the same person once they have taken your life from you... Not very many people get good behavior... plus you will never be able to function in society again... nobody diserves this for a victimless crime.. Nobody!
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