So very few people on avalon

[sunshineseastar]

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

That is fine except you have some illusion that they are bad people. The people complaining are still here. Like yourself who are complaining about who I see as fairly decent people. You're the ones protected by mommy and daddy not the other way around. You use the analogy it's their house. No it's the peoples house. The internet is not suppose to be private property unless you are into fascism. We make this entire thing up. The people who liked the forum are also banned too. It has nothing to do with what you said. Some left because they didn't like other people and so on. But most are too quick to be banned. The reason why you never got any penalty even though you are rude is because of being an owners pet.

the voice of truth !!!!!!! thanks.....

[Xhaosis]

Well, there really is not much to talk about on this forum...


You can only go on and on about preparedness for so long.

Sooner or later you get your alpha members, and it turns into a strange mindless challenge of people's beleif's.

I suggest more topics to talk about.

I would like a poetry section or a section where members can express other things, perhaps a debate section, so we can have debates, and learn. Perhaps a section where we can post pictures of odd things we see, news or what not. Making Avalon a more dynamic message board. I try to come on as much as I can, do I agree with every mind I meet here, no, yet instead of posting hey your a moron, I just do not post on their thread. Actually there are some threads here that actually scare me, as far as what people think and beleive, but that does not mean I am not brave enough to try to understand how, or why or for what reason they beleive such a notion. Anyhow its not the quantitiy of the product we produce its the quality...

PEACE

[Anchor]

Originally Posted by SIR GALAHAD

Hi i don't know how many other people have noticed just lately how few there are of us on here has any body got any ideas as to why that is have they all been banned in the clean up thanks just a general question im throwing out .

In fact the answer is simpler.

"There is only one of us here."

A..

[Karen]

I'm a new mod, all of the mod team and Bill and Kerry just had a nice teleconference to get us all aligned with the Avalon purpose and on the same page.

I've seen some very balanced and sensible observations voiced on this thread and I've seen a few that are not true to my understanding of what has transpired on the Avalon forum.

A few people were banned because of offensive attitudes. I don't know of any that were banned for posting "doom and gloom" info. The problem is the attitude.

How would you describe the attitude you would like your partners in an "Avalon-type" community to exhibit? Would rude and disrespectful, accusing without questioning another directly about their motives and intent be the type of people you want in your community?

And a lot of others left, on their own free-well because of offensive attitudes grandstanding in the forum.

Please don't jump to conclusions about Bill, Kerry or the mods. They have all been accused of some really far out schemes and theses accusations simply are not true. Please ask questions in a respectful way. We have some new moderators on the team now and more time to answer you about Avalon. Bill will have some time this week to answer questions - look for him to be posting a thread for you to ask questions.

Karen

[Karen]

Originally Posted by Xhaosis

I would like a poetry section or a section where members can express other things, perhaps a debate section, so we can have debates, and learn. Perhaps a section where we can post pictures of odd things we see, news or what not. Making Avalon a more dynamic message board. I try to come on as much as I can, do I agree with every mind I meet here, no, yet instead of posting hey your a moron, I just do not post on their thread. Actually there are some threads here that actually scare me, as far as what people think and beleive, but that does not mean I am not brave enough to try to understand how, or why or for what reason they beleive such a notion. Anyhow its not the quantitiy of the product we produce its the quality...

Xhaosis, I have noted your suggestions and will post them to the moderator brainstorming areas. In fact, we may start a "Suggestion Box" thread - we just need a little time to sort our way through the humongous task of "improving Avalon."

Karen

[macleodmunro]

One thing that annoys me is every time i get into a thread, and i'm enjoying reading peoples comments (like in this thread) an argument breaks out.

One person says something another doesn't like and the trading of insults begins.
This is becomming far too common. Maybe some members are put off by this, who knows.

I had hoped to find more understanding of LOVE on this forum, but maybe humanity's desire for conflict is too strong.

PEACE (please)

[Karen]

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

That is fine except you have some illusion that they are bad people. The people complaining are still here. Like yourself who are complaining about who I see as fairly decent people. You're the ones protected by mommy and daddy not the other way around. You use the analogy it's their house. No it's the peoples house. The internet is not suppose to be private property unless you are into fascism. We make this entire thing up. The people who liked the forum are also banned too. It has nothing to do with what you said. Some left because they didn't like other people and so on. But most are too quick to be banned. The reason why you never got any penalty even though you are rude is because of being an owners pet.

Dean Plejaren,

Most "bans" are short term to encourage people to modify offensive behavior before they return again in a few days. We'd rather call it a more gentle term, but the vBulletin software is quite limited and we have to work with how the software is written. I know Bill would love to have someone design a special application for Avalon whose language would be more in alignment with his vision.

I will disagree with you - this is the internet "house" built by Bill and Kerry and we do have "rules of engagement" to treat each other with respect. Most people who have left the forum have done so because a very few people were allowed to carry on in off tangent directions. With more mods on duty now, we hope people will get true answers to their questions in a more timely matter before the conspiracy mind has concocted dozens of of untrue explanations. If you have any questions, just ask.

If anyone wants to be more in tune with the language of non-violent communication ...
please visit:
The Center for Nonviolent Communication
Global organization helping people compassionately connect with one another through Nonviolent Communication, a process created by Marshall B Rosenberg, ...
www.cnvc.org/

[Frank Samuel]

Somebody said that people move on to other sites what a relief, I thought they all got rapture and became food for the reptilians.
Well maybe one of the doom and gloom predictions became true for them.
Who knows why people leave, too much positivity can be contagious, why be happy if you could be gloomy. Just kidding folks.

[Karen]

Originally Posted by macleodmunro

One thing that annoys me is every time i get into a thread, and i'm enjoying reading peoples comments (like in this thread) an argument breaks out.

One person says something another doesn't like and the trading of insults begins.
This is becomming far too common. Maybe some members are put off by this, who knows.

I had hoped to find more understanding of LOVE on this forum, but maybe humanity's desire for conflict is too strong.

PEACE (please)

Yes, Macleodmunro, I agree with you. The moderators had a 3.5 hour teleconference this morning and I brought up the topic of posting info and links to help people learn about more gentle communication skills.

Karen

[Humble Janitor]

Originally Posted by skyrimirre

I agree some people can't handle it and would like to stay asleep and believe
that Obama's in so they can sit back on the laurels.

Anyway, those of us who are here should be. Those who feel to leave, shouldn't be here.

Either way, there is a future out there waiting and we can deal with it or we can't, it is the same.

Now, let's knock it off with the Obama-bashing. I'm getting sick and tired of seeing that in every single thread here.

Regardless, perhaps people are just taking a break? I don't need to be here all the time either.

[Reunite]

Maybe some people have found out about Dr Earths's new ecological nightclub

http://www.holisticbulletin.com/2008...club-launches/

Originally Posted by Karen

Yes, Macleodmunro, I agree with you. The moderators had a 3.5 hour teleconference this morning and I brought up the topic of posting info and links to help people learn about more gentle communication skills.

Karen

Hi Karen,

well, this sounds a great idea.. I for one hope this will bring about a much needed improvement, and hope this effort put into positive commnication styles will pay off for everyone... as even after the "clear-out" a week or two ago, there is still sometimes a level of communicating (by some, not all) which leaves quite a bit to be desired , my humble opinion.

This is what made me walk away a few weeks ago, not the content of the threads or ideas (even the ones I disagreed with), but the way they often demised into slanging matches, derision, sarcasm, sometimes outright verbal abuse and often really low-level ways of speaking to people... by some (not all) members, and also some (not trying to point any fingers here! ), not all, mods themselves........ I think this really might have put a lot of people off. It did me! I came back as I feel this is an important place to learn and share, even though still feeling rather wary.. sometimes feels like I'm treading on eggshells.. afraid of (unintentionally) setting off any verbal 'explosions' !

So.. I really do hope this will lead to a fresh re-start for Avalon, as it is a valuable site and I for one will stay for as long as the level/tone/style of communication remains positive, well-intentioned and peaceful ... whatever is being discussed and whoever is discussing it!

Maybe then more people will feel encouraged to post and stop lurking?!

Peaceful blessings!

[Dean Plejaren]

A few people were banned because of offensive attitudes

Hey Karen,
You had a meeting about how to keep on purpose? Feel free to share the main points with everyone on the forum who are part of it.....

It depends how wise you are. If banning people is the answer to offensive attitudes (that one interprets as offensive) it's not dealing with things but making them worse. Mainly because their attitude may not be what is offensive at all so it creates another problem instead of the solution. It may be the other person who is offensive by thinking they are superior and interpreting it as bad. People have the right to decide things. Responsibility for not being censored is everyones problem. The purpose of Avalon is not in the direction of it's defined purpose otherwise a community would be in the works that we could all participate in. There would be planning and a clearly defined progression happening that we can all track. If others express observations or judgments are labeled offensive. This is getting on thin ice in terms of covering up what others say and their own experiences. It prevents positive growth when you censor no matter what the excuse is.

So it's not attacking or accusing or an attitude that is a problem. Blaming individuals, is not kool. Not allowing them to speak, is not effective. The issue is sticking to the defined purpose of the forum. Which I see is offtrack at the moment. Maybe re-define it's purpose or stop thinking it is the purpose it advertises.

You can't stop people arguing forcefully without a regression, that is part of the process of resolving present frictions. Forcefully banning average people is going backwards. You can say they deserve to be banned and it was all correct but I wasn't born yesterday.

P.S
When you own a site that doesn't mean you own the people. Nor does it mean they are in your territory to order them as you please. This is what causes illusions that make you think certain people are above the rule of other people. It's not a pyramid. You strip people of their right to be themself.

Yes I have already got a ban as a warning for having this 'attitude' which I think is entirely offensive in itself.

I know that some people are comfortable thinking things are different without the truth upsetting them and their daily log on experience. For that I am sorry. I'd rather upset them than let others paint a picture that is not the true situation.

[Myplanet2]

I think the people most likely to find themselves invited to leave, are those who could care less whether they upset or offend others.

Any point which can be made, can be made without trampling others feelings.

There are lots of very sensitive people here, who have largely put most confrontationally polarized interactions behind them.

Many have said that proximity to this careless behaviour is a deal breaker in whether they are able to participate here or not, and unfortunately, we've lost a great many valued members.

An example would be where a poster tells another he's gotten something wrong, and then adds a completely unnecessary "as usual".

That kind of petulant behaviour can grow legs and walk away, IMO.

[Karen]

1) The voice of truth? 2) Owners pet? 3) Too quick to be banned?

My comments:
1) Not the voice of truth that I hear. I see a lot of opinion there, some I agree with and much that I don't agree with and some downright erroneous.
2) I was not given any list of of "owners pets."
3) Too quick to be banned some may say, and not quick enough for others. There are many different personality types on the forum. Some love to be argumentative. Some find argumentation to be most unpleasant. The ban rate here has been very, very tiny. As the mod team continues to change members and there is more communication and training, and the work load spread a little thinner, there should be less people feeling unfairly dealt with. Give us a chance. Many times other members make complaints about a person which over time lead to that person being banned if their unpleasant behavior continues to upset other members.
_____________
Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren
That is fine except you have some illusion that they are bad people. The people complaining are still here. Like yourself who are complaining about who I see as fairly decent people. You're the ones protected by mommy and daddy not the other way around. You use the analogy it's their house. No it's the peoples house. The internet is not suppose to be private property unless you are into fascism. We make this entire thing up. The people who liked the forum are also banned too. It has nothing to do with what you said. Some left because they didn't like other people and so on. But most are too quick to be banned. The reason why you never got any penalty even though you are rude is because of being an owners pet.

Originally Posted by sunshineseastar

the voice of truth !!!!!!! thanks.....

[blastawaycas]

or it might be because everybody is getting there computer fried this is the third one this week

[Karen]

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

Hey Karen,
You had a meeting about how to keep on purpose? Feel free to share the main points with everyone on the forum who are part of it.....

No, that was not the topic of this meeting, though it might be in some future meeting. Have you ever run a discussion board of this size with its initial growth rate? Have you ever had 100 lies proclaimed about yourself and your mission and your intents?

If you think a handful or two of banned members in a forum with over 5200 people is a big deal, think about this one ... the attrition rate of the moderators is astronomical. The work load is crushing, for some the mountain of abuse and lies about the mod team and owners simply becomes intolerable. Considerable meeting time was spent getting all the new mods on the same page, so some of the past problems can be avoided in the future. If there is a problem on the forum, we all want to come up with the best solutions, none of which of course, will please everyone. I assure everyone of this -- the mods are not the power tripping ogres that a handful think we are. We are just everyday people who have volunteered our time to help out. None of us are perfect and we all have a flaw or two or maybe even three. Very few of the previous batch of mods remain. So its a new day!

I'd say 50% of it was about technical issues connected to using vBulletin. Almost every answer about changes we wanted was "no this program cannot do that." And I asked a lot of questions about all the crazy things people are writing and spreading around. No, George Green has not funded Kerry and Bill. It has all been their own money they spent to provide this information to people for free, and a small portion of small donations. They will probably make a section and answer all these types of lies about them themselves. Dean we are here for the truth and you are posting some erroneous assumptions and calling them truth.

Here's a fact: Many members are complaining to us about your swastika avatar - as we all have various levels of "truth" knowing. I happened to read the thread about what the true meaning of that symbol is - if I remember correctly, it is unity. I think it would be a great idea if you could put some explanation in your sig file, something clever or witty or with a real stickem point. You do ask some good questions. Keep advocating for the truth, but be careful about those assumptions you make.

To UNITY!
To the TRUTH!
Karen

[Dean Plejaren]

Give us a chance.

A chance at what? You have all the chances. I'm defending peoples freedom to have one. The point is to be able to express without getting banned or penalized or threads moved deleted in what I see as a bias fashion. It may not be conscious so I'm not accusing anyone. Give the people who are banned a chance. That is a suggestion not a complaint or protest.

If people complain well they can complain. I never let complaints control me neither should anyone else worry about anything anyone complains about or lies about. As long as you stick to the truth lies are just lies and ignorance ignorance. If you cannot defeat lies with truth it only proves you don't have enough truth to defeat it. Censorship is not how you defeat any problem you can trust me on that because it's factual. Remember this is not an argument, do as you wish. I'm just stating how things are. When you delete threads move things around ban people. You do it out of discernment of what is supposedly the best thing. I'm just saying how I see the situation if you think I am wrong that is ok. And ban me if you wish. My opinion remands the same.

If I have made any assumptions in particular that are wrong feel free to point them out. I'm not against you saying so. Just as you shouldn't be against me saying what I think.

My avatar, that shouldn't be a problem. If anyone is offended contact me for clarification. It has never being a problem. I have only saw one person ask about what it meant. If anyone was upset complaining to me would be more sensible since I am the one with the avatar. Yet I haven't seen anyone complain as yet publically or privately to me.

Could you be making excuses? Are you being defensive? I don't see a problem with anyone I just like to say things as I see them. If people create rumors or lies that is their business it doesn't mean I am going to infringe on their ability to express simply because their behavior may not be suitable for myself. Better they are allowed to make mistakes and learn. I'm only saying this as the subject came up normally I would not bring it up only someone asked about this.

5200 people is only a big deal if you have an ineffective approach. Otherwise they are simply free spirits speaking their mind and it's not really that much work when everyone does a little bit to help keep the forum running. Like you being moderator and such. What crushing workload? I would just let them be as they are and let them lead themself......it shouldn't be a crushing workload. Keep in mind I haven't assumed anything about anyone.

This is also strange that you say half of it was because of technical issues. I was there and I know what happened was not a technical puzzle it was clearly active moderation with clear distinct choices that were being made at the time. What technical issue could it have being? If you mean there was not a function to more effectively control peoples opinion than I have to say forums are not made for that purpose.

To UNITY!
To the TRUTH!

[lilac]

Besides the Law of One and the Golden Rule, another wonderful communication tool that I try to use as a guide is the Four Agreements: Always do your best; Be impeccable with your word; Don't make assumptions; Don't take anything personally.

Conflict, mud-slinging and disagreement come from basic negative emotions like fear. In a place like this, where awareness is fairly high, valuable discussions could take place that would be helpful for ground crews who need first and foremost to GET ALONG.

So, starting on a level playing field, meaning that each and every voice is valued, I would love to hear other people's thoughts on a thread titled, "The Art of Not Taking Offense".

[Karen]

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

Hey Karen,
You had a meeting about how to keep on purpose? Feel free to share the main points with everyone on the forum who are part of it.....

Keeping "on purpose" is different from stating your purpose to a new moderating team. What struck me most about what Bill has said is that he would like to see a new "forum paradigm." He wants to see less harsh statements from the moderators to the out of alignment members. The new consciousness is a softer, more gentle, less combative and less argumentative attitude. It's a new day. It's a new moderating team, with new goals and new agreements. Could you please back off the public mod bashing. If you have a complaint about any future moderator actions, Private Message me or one of the others and let us discuss it with you. I will keep requesting that we all think about dropping old paradigm communication styles while you (plural) are abiding in Kerry and Bill's internet gathering place. I don't agree with you that this should be a free-for-all place where some members ignore the forum guidelines.

And I just saw your new post. We talked about how we can move a thread to the section they belong in, and leave a place marker directing people to the new location. We send the original poster a private message about the move, and we hope a place marker will help. From this point on we hope to limit the deleting of posts and I am advocating this be minimized for the very reasons you express. I assure you we are listening, yet we do have FORUM GUIDELINES - http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/a...ent.php?f=&a=6.

Again this is a new team with new input and a new vision. From this day forward give us chance - complain to us of future events, not of the past we've hashed over a zillion times. Please go make a positive contribution to some other thread. Please help guide the forum members to stick with the the purpose. You know - unity. What are we doing right? Anything?

To keep on purpose!
Karen

[Dean Plejaren]

Keeping "on purpose" is different from stating your purpose to a new moderating team. What struck me most about what Bill has said is that he would like to see a new "forum paradigm." He wants to see less harsh statements from the moderators to the out of alignment members. The new consciousness is a softer, more gentle, less combative and less argumentative attitude. It's a new day. It's a new moderating team, with new goals and new agreements. Could you please back off the public mod bashing.

Startling after you say that I'm faced with back off the mod bashing. If it is a new day and a new paradigm. Why do I still feel like I did something wrong and you are asking me to not do something. Why do you say I am mod bashing? Because I thought that some moderation was bias recently....Am I allowed to have that thought without being seen as abusive? If not I don't think that is fair. I have good reason to judge it as bias. But yeah I will move on now I was just answering the question from someone.

The out of alignment members? Well that is for everyone to judge. Some people have unusual choices that are different to others. I see them as individuals and my paradigm is completely different to yours. I support co-operating but would not mistake difference of opinion with conflict.

Thanks for adding your bit and doing the best you can. It's not that I don't appreciate good intentions I would rather not praise people.

[broken arrow]

.

[Myplanet2]

Since you asked, Dean, I believe you have made a couple of assumptions which are incorrect in this thread.

One is that this place is public. It is not. you had to apply and be accepted. It's a private place, belonging to Bill and Kerry. What they wish it to be, is what it will be. Those who find they can't agree with their purpose and mission statement for this forum are welcome to find a more suitable playground.

Second is the notion of free speech on this forum. The desire of both owners and the mod team, is that free speech be the reality here. But it's not a right. It's a privilege, which exists within the rules, guidelines, and spirit and purpose under which this forum was created.

A member here simply does not have the right to treat other members in a disrespectful, discourteous manner.

Your freedom to leave far surpasses your freedom to say whatever you like, regardless of the effect that will create on other more congenial members.

I'm not saying I think you should leave or don't belong here. I've seen lots of your posts pushing for getting into action on some sort of plan. Sounds like you're action oriented. What are you doing in that regard? Action oriented people are going to see their person stock rise in the near future, if I'm not mistaken. Action needs a channel.

[Anchor]

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

I'm defending peoples freedom to have one.

Dean, why do you feel that you need to "speak for" / "defend" people here or "there"? DO you think this forum is full of shy people who cannot speak for themselves. Have you considered that many are quite happy just to lurk and get all the good stuff that is here, or just contribute in peace.

What is it that YOU really want? If it is total freedom to engage in any forum behaviour including that which contravene's the forum guideliness then great - I get that, maybe YOU don't agree with all of the guidelines, but it is Avalon with Avalon's guidelines and not Dean's forum with Dean's guidelines.

Avalon values positive contribution, factual contribution, healthy debate and opinions, above that it values that all this is done in a respectful and as harmless a manner as possible. The moderators are there to assisst this process.

Avalon encourages that decency, and I feel pretty confident that most of the membership encourages/hopes for it to, since that is what makes it strong.

Further, I presume that the majority who do operate within the guidelines dont really understand why the few who dont, do what they do. Or if they do, (sometimes it is obvious) they dont speak up because they dont want to further fan the fires - they would preffer to stick with Avalons mission. They dont want endless threads of bonecrushing debate, or to be personally attacked for thier views, or see forum bashing and negativity - all of which is, more often than not, off-topic.

In any case those that fail to meet these quite normal standards of human decency should expect to either be encouraged to change or, if necessary stop contributing (by thier choice or Avalon's depending on the situation).

You have said elsewhere that you are going to start your own unmoderated forum? Were is it? You can say that here as a reply to this message and I promise that we won't bust you for advertising. Either way, I wish you well in your experiment.

A..

[Dean Plejaren]

Originally Posted by Myplanet2

Since you asked, Dean, I believe you have made a couple of assumptions which are incorrect in this thread.

One is that this place is public. It is not. you had to apply and be accepted. It's a private place, belonging to Bill and Kerry. What they wish it to be, is what it will be. Those who find they can't agree with their purpose and mission statement for this forum are welcome to find a more suitable playground.

Second is the notion of free speech on this forum. The desire of both owners and the mod team, is that free speech be the reality here. But it's not a right. It's a privilege, which exists within the rules, guidelines, and spirit and purpose under which this forum was created.

A member here simply does not have the right to treat other members in a disrespectful, discourteous manner.

Your freedom to leave far surpasses your freedom to say whatever you like, regardless of the effect that will create on other more congenial members.

I'm not saying I think you should leave or don't belong here. I've seen lots of your posts pushing for getting into action on some sort of plan. Sounds like you're action oriented. What are you doing in that regard? Action oriented people are going to see their person stock rise in the near future, if I'm not mistaken. Action needs a channel.

Not a public place. Private. Free speech not seen as a right but a privilege here. Limited within the bounds of the desires of the private owners on the internet space who claim everything within that space as their own.

This is not my paradigm or something I will ever agree on. but I will agree it is there right to choose that paradigm for themself. Even if I did not agree the laws of nature dictate them the power to ban me. However it does not empower people this paradigm so I conclude it is immoral. I am here because I am myself, my rights is never a privilege or property of another person.

Since I don't agree with this paradigm they can either let me be myself or ban me. I respect people but I am going to think for myself what is best. If others did the same we would not have globalization. This was not an assumption I made it was a conscious decision to know and follow what is the more effective and empowering system of operation in a forum.

Originally Posted by Anchor

You have said elsewhere that you are going to start your own unmoderated forum? Were is it?

http://plejaren.heavenforum.com/