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Old 10-11-2008, 06:57 AM   #1
peacelovinman
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Default Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

http://www.freedom-force.org/freedom...refpage=issues

ZEITGEIST ADDENDUM - A CRITICAL REVIEW
© 2008 by G. Edward Griffin 2008 OCTOBER 9

Hello Mr. Griffin. I'm sure you have heard of the popular movie on the internet, Zeitgeist. It had three separate parts about Christianity being fake, the Federal Reserve being a conspiracy and bad, and that the government was involved in 9/11. Well the sequel just came out, Zeitgeist Addendum, and it seems very dangerous. This movie screams controlled opposition/false solution propaganda more than anything I have ever seen.

The movie starts off with why the Federal Reserve is bad. It seems to latch onto valid concerns that the freedom movement/Ron Paul supporters have been worried about. But its solution is really, really bad and is already sending a lot of people in the wrong direction. It goes on to say that money is evil and has caused every problem in the world. If only we abolished all money and private property everything would be great. All resources should collectively belong to all humans of the world. Intelligent management of resources and technology could allow everyone to be free. The world would turn into some utopia. All crime would go away and greed and corruption would go away. We should be a one world community. It even specifically says that voting for liberty candidates like Ron Paul is the wrong thing to do. I guess we should give up all hope and let bad politicians do whatever they want to us.

It is full of doublespeak, wild assumptions, and crazy socialist propaganda. It also put in more about how religion is bad. I am convinced this thing was specifically made to stop the liberty movement from achieving anything. It puts in just enough truths that we believe in to trick people into following the wrong path.

I think statements about what is wrong with this film from liberty organizations like Freedom Force International would do a lot of good and would prevent some people from going in the wrong direction. Some people might think the best idea is to just ignore it and it will go away. But it appears to be incredibly popular online and gaining support. Even the most popular Ron Paul website posted the video. And the most popular Ron Paul message board has three threads with hundreds of posts talking about it. Here is the video link.
Jonathan, 2008 Oct 6

REPLY FROM EG:

Jonathan, I don't like to criticize anything that is helping to spread the truth about the Federal Reserve and 9/11 but I must agree with the substance of what you have said about this video. I watched it two nights ago and was deeply disturbed by its message. At first, I thought it would be best to just let it play itself out in expectation that most viewers would cross it off as whacky. However, the production value is high, the effects and sound score are compelling, and there is enough truth embedded in the beginning to capture the attention and possibly the trust of many within the freedom movement. So here are my comments on a few items of concern:

1. The information about the Federal Reserve is, for the most part, right on target. However, I practically fell out of my chair when the program repeated that old, silly argument about the Fed not creating enough money to cover the cost of interest on debt; and, therefore, the world must forever be in debt. I knew right there that the writer did not read The Creature from Jekyll Island or, if he did, he forgot my analysis of this common myth. For those who are interested in that topic, it is fund on pages 191-192 of The Creature.

2. The next jolt came when the program praised Civil War Greenbacks, calling them debt-free. Actually, Greenbacks were contrary to the U.S. Constitution and, although they were not fiat money issued by the banks, they were fiat money issued by the government. That was better than paying interest on nothing to bankers, but they still wiped out the purchasing power of American money through massive inflation. They can not correctly be called debt-free, either, because they represented debt on the shoulders of the government, which means, of course, on the shoulders of the taxpayers. It never ceases to amaze me how people think that the solution to money created out of nothing by those big, bad bankers is to have money created out of nothing by those nice, trustworthy politicians. Yet, that is what this program supports.

3. There is a lengthy segment in which the author of I Was an Economic Hit Man, John Perkins, tells the story of how propagandists in the U.S. manipulated public opinion to support military action against several Latin American countries. Then Perkins says that these propagandists scared Americans by telling them that the leaders of these countries were Marxists who were aligned with the Soviets. This, of course, is a half truth that is just as dangerous as a total lie. It is true about the propagandists and their strategy to scare the public into supporting military intervention in those countries, but it is false to portray those dictators as great humanitarians who cared only for the well being of their people. That is total bunk. They WERE aligned with the Soviet Union and they WERE part of a Marxist/Leninist strategy to dominate Latin America; a strategy that continues to this day.

There was plenty not to like on both sides of that struggle, but objective historians would never depict the Rhodesians (the CFR crowd in the U.S.) as bad guys but depict the Soviet puppets as good guys. In his book, Perkins reveals this same slant. He exposes the foul tactics of international corporations, the IMF, and World Bank, but he never mentions a Leftist dictator, such as Fidel Castro or Hugo Chavez without praising them. Perkins is a collectivist aligned with the Left, and that strongly influences his telling of this story. Yet the producers of the video make no mention of this bias and give him an inordinate amount of time to present his slanted view without challenge.

4. Perhaps the biggest insult to our intelligence is the main theme of the program. It is that profits are the root of all our problems today. That being the case, we must change mankind to reject profit and we must work together on some other basis. It is never quite clear what that basis is, but, whatever it is, it will be administered and directed by an elite group, at least in the beginning. I was stunned by the fact that this is pure Marxism. Mark theorized that people had to be re-educated (in labor camps, if necessary) to cleanse their minds of the profit motive. He and his disciples, such as Lenin and Stalin and Khruschev, said that, eventually, the character of man would be purged of greed, and then the state would wither away because it no longer would be needed. Sure! We saw that in the Soviet Union and China, right? Yet this Marxist nonsense is exactly what is offered in this video program. It is Communism without using the name.

The profit motive is neither good nor bad. It can be applied either way depending on social and political factors. The desire for profit is merely the desire to be compensated for our labor, our creativity, our knowledge, or even for our risk. Without profit, very little would be accomplished in the world - not even if everyone spent a few years in labor camps to be re-educated. It is a basic part of man's nature and is the mainspring of human progress, as Henry Grady Weaver described it in his book by that same title. Throughout history, whenever man lived in a system that allows him to be rewarded for his work, there has been great productivity and abundance. By contrast, where social engineers gained control of the state and restricted people from receiving the fruits of their labor, productivity fell, and scarcity was the norm.

The profit motive functions differently in different political systems. In a free system where government does not intervene in the market place, the profit motive always will manifest itself as competition, each person or each company trying to deliver better quality products and services at lower prices. That was how it used to be in the early days of America, and that is what led to the greatest outpouring of productivity and abundance the world has ever seen. However, in a collectivist system where government controls every conceivable aspect of economic and commercial activity (the system that now exists in America), the profit motive always manifests itself as a quest for political influence and laws to favor one group over another. The net effect is to eliminate competition in the market place. Under collectivism, success is achieved, not by creating better products and services for less cost, but by controlling legislators and government agencies. It is a system of legalized plunder, as Frederic Bastiat called it in his famous treatise, The Law. Unfortunately, it is the system that dominates most of the world today.

Zeitgeist Addendum ignores this reality. At one point the narrator even says that the greatest evil in the world today is "the free enterprise system." That's an incredible statement, especially inasmuch as the free enterprise system has been dead for several decades. It lives in name only. The whole world now is in the grips of non-competitive monopolies and cartels that have forged partnerships with governments. All of the evils to which this program alludes are the result, not of the free enterprise system, but of the abandonment of free enterprise and the adoption of collectivism. This program creates a mythological boogeyman and then advocates more of the very thing that has brought us to the mess we are in today.

The enemy of mankind is not profit. It is a political system of big government. Yet, this program is supportive of some of the most notable big-government collectivist on the planet. Marxist/Leninists may be enemies of collectivists in Washington, DC, but they are collectivists in their own right. The Communist model is no better than the Nazi model.

There is much more that could be said about other program topics such as technology supposedly being our salvation, about the a future world in which no one has to work, and about common ownership of land, oceans, natural resources, etc. but, for the most part, these merely are sub issues to the ones already described, so I will spare my readers the pain of further discourse.

In summary, this program does NOT offer a cure. It offers a mega dose of the disease itself.
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Old 10-11-2008, 07:37 AM   #2
Tolga
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

who financed this film ?
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Old 10-11-2008, 08:12 AM   #3
Phtha
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Edward G Griffin is the very person that woke me up.
I find he is one of the most knowledgeable people around.

Thanks for sharing his review.

@Tolga - I can't answer your question about finances, but according to Alex Jones the person who made the movie is a NY film director who is not using his
real name...

Here is Alex's review:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyQtN4HY4Ko&sdig=1
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Old 10-11-2008, 08:32 AM   #4
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Thank you for the article/letter peacelovinman.

In the title you say "(for the sake of balance)", but I think this issue is more important than that.

I think for all of our own sake's, we should scrutinize this film as much as anything that enters our personal research, especially since the film advocates that we act now.
I watched the film a day or so after it's release. I was impressed w/ the first forty min. of monetary system analysis, although after researching it's claims and now reading this article from Mr. Griffin, it's becoming clear that there are significant holes there too.

Somethig Richard Hoagland often says, is very relevant here, I think:
"The lie is different at every level"

There are good ideas in Zeitgeist Addendum that I have been employing for years. i.e; I beg and plead w/ anyone I meet, that is contemplating joining the military, to consider any other option.

I was alarmed to hear the film link all work to some sort of tedious factory assembly line. Indeed those types of jobs exist, and mainly to serve the greater benefit of the PTB, but humans are creative and in my opinion we are here (earth) to create. It is rewarding to create a business that serves your nieghbor and yourself.

The film also seems to assert that preying personalities and agendas are not part of human nature. While many of us are good people, can we all say that we never consider possible beneficial avenues presented to us, that may take advantage of unwhitting parties? We may never act on those considerations, but the possibility exists because we have free will.

It seems this film wants to subdue free will in the name of what's best for humanity. I realise that this inculdes saving inocent victims from a drunk driver by shutting down his/her car before they can do harm. But who says you're drunk before your car is shut down? A computer. But who programs the computer? Some unseen human authority.
This is a very slippery slope and at the bottom, is you, controlled omnipotently for the "greater good of humanity".

Here is the first third of the Alex Jones take on Zietgiest Addendum. This is, in my opinion, a pretty objective analysis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyQtN4HY4Ko


What have many of us learned about the current PTB in our research? They are interested in much more than just money. They are interested in control, over YOU. This film is in my opinion is a mish mash of truths, lies, and, half truths that overall has the potential to blind you w/ production values and fantasy world ideals into forgetting the overall message, which seems to be: surrender your free will for the greater good of humanity.




Thanks for introducing this thread peacelovinman.
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Old 10-11-2008, 08:36 AM   #5
raulduke
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Oops!

Sorry for reposting the Alex Jones review. I was contemplating my response for awhile and forgot to check to see if anyone else had posted.
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Old 10-11-2008, 09:43 AM   #6
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quote from 'Jonathan':
Quote:
If only we abolished all money and private property everything would be great...
The Venus project men is stating that it is not perfect, there is no perfection.
Its an ongoing process of rejecting the old and useless patterns of working for profit, as it encourages greed. the main issue here is a rethinking of the motives. if the motive is money, then you don't care for the environment.
the best way to get an everlasting stream of money is to enslave peaple to buy more and more, and to get that is to make products that will last less and less.


quote from 'Jonathan':
Quote:
All resources should collectively belong to all humans of the world. Intelligent management of resources and technology could allow everyone to be free...

What is wrong with this idea? it is certainly much better then the one we have today.


quote from 'Jonathan':
Quote:
It also put in more about how religion is bad...

Religion is not bad it is simply irrelevant.
it had a purpose of controlling the masses. now is the time for educating people not to be afraid of some god figure that will punish you if you touch your winnie...


quote from 'Jonathan':
Quote:
I am convinced this thing was specifically made to stop the liberty movement from achieving anything

What have you and all the other movements achieved exactly?
Nothing on a global scale.
There is more poverty, more pollution, more ignorance.
The idea is to change the system totally, change the motive for success totally so human beings will want to celebrate life without wanting to get something out of it except the feeling of the joy of sharing.


quote from 'Raulduke':
Quote:
The film also seems to assert that preying personalities and agendas are not part of human nature. While many of us are good people, can we all say that we never consider possible beneficial avenues presented to us, that may take advantage of unwhitting parties? We may never act on those considerations, but the possibility exists because we have free will.

We do not have a free will!
Tell that to the person who try to quit smoking...
we have free will to the extent the EGO allows us to have.
and the current system supports the GROWTH of the EGO, therefore the GROWTH of the human suffering.

you have to build and work in order to have free will.
this is where spirituality education comes in.


quote from 'Raulduke':
Quote:
It seems this film wants to subdue free will in the name of what's best for humanity...

This is nonsense!
The film creator is trying to show a part of the truth and offer a different path to a better world.


quote from 'Raulduke':
Quote:
...I realise that this inculdes saving inocent victims from a drunk driver by shutting down his/her car before they can do harm. But who says you're drunk before your car is shut down? A computer. But who programs the computer? Some unseen human authority.
This is a very slippery slope and at the bottom, is you, controlled omnipotently for the "greater good of humanity".

Come on man!
This is just a blue print of ideas. we have a long way until we will succeed
in creating a better human race.


quote from 'REPLY FROM EG':
Quote:
...That being the case, we must change mankind to reject profit and we must work together on some other basis. It is never quite clear what that basis is
How about the basis of love?

quote from 'reply from EG':
Quote:
...The desire for profit is merely the desire to be compensated for our labor, our creativity, our knowledge, or even for our risk.

The desire of profit is an EGO desire like all desires, that comes from the notion we are separate from one another and from the universe.
When we will understand that all is one the desire will be to serve the others, therefor to serve ourselves.
And there is your motive!


quote from 'reply from EG':
Quote:
...Without profit, very little would be accomplished in the world.

The idea of profit will change from "profit to the little me" to the "profit for the big whole."


I totally agree that the second part of ZeitGeist is somewhat biased toward a social idea, but what is wrong with that?
I also agree that it lacks a certain objectivity and balance in the presentation of the ideas but it is still a powerful step on the way of change.

WE NEED A TOTAL CHANGE OF THE SYSTEM, NOT JUST A FIX OF THE OLD ONE!

peace and love to all!

Last edited by nivosh; 10-11-2008 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 10-11-2008, 10:01 AM   #7
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

I think its slightly misguided. I dont believe its deliberate from the PTB
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Old 10-11-2008, 10:07 AM   #8
raulduke
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

nivosh,
I would like to say that I am not happy that you have chopped and spliced quotes from the CRITICAL REVIEW and my post w/o labeling either.

For now, I am too tired to adequately respond to your misrepresentations.
I will respond thoroughly as soon as I can.

peace and good night.
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Old 10-11-2008, 10:27 AM   #9
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Adam Smith in his book "The Wealth of Nations" in 1776. Capitalists favor a system of free enterprise which means the government should NOT interfere in the economy - that the laws of supply and demand will make sure that the economy runs most efficiently in meeting people's needs.
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Old 10-11-2008, 10:27 AM   #10
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Thanks heaps for posting that. The Creature was also the first book I read about the Fed and the US money supply etc. I have a high reverence of G.E. Griffin for his contributions over the years, and I still read from The Creature regularly.

I would also recommend a book called The Web of Debt by Ellen Brown, which I think is also excellent and in many ways more contemporary, however a little less 'conspiratorial' in a sense. It goes into derivatives, sub-prime, economic collapse etc. She actually puts forward a different argument to Griffin re: Greenback dollars [see below] - she asserts that debt-free govt-issued money is NOT inflationary and simply 'primes the pump' for more business activity. This is in opposition to the dollar backed by the gold-standard that Griffin and Ron Paul (go, Ron!) are all about. I absolutely love both books, but I must say that I refer to The Web of Debt far more regularly for info about market manipulation (PPT etc.), derivatives and collapse. The Creature is great for things like the bailout game, the NWO, fabians and socialism, along with all those interesting little alternative historical takes on events like the Russian revolution etc., and depopulation and The Report from Iron Mountain.

Cheers
Ben

Quote:
2. The next jolt came when the program praised Civil War Greenbacks, calling them debt-free. Actually, Greenbacks were contrary to the U.S. Constitution and, although they were not fiat money issued by the banks, they were fiat money issued by the government. That was better than paying interest on nothing to bankers, but they still wiped out the purchasing power of American money through massive inflation. They can not correctly be called debt-free, either, because they represented debt on the shoulders of the government, which means, of course, on the shoulders of the taxpayers. It never ceases to amaze me how people think that the solution to money created out of nothing by those big, bad bankers is to have money created out of nothing by those nice, trustworthy politicians. Yet, that is what this program supports.
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Old 10-11-2008, 11:08 AM   #11
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Namaste, Honorable Avalon Members,

'For the sake of balance' is an interesting way of putting it, as if Balance is something one(WE) can find outside of ONESELF.

So to see, The-Powers-That-Be, the Champions of the Status Quo, are contre-attacking big Way! And spreading fear.
I think that Member Nivosh has plainly expressed it; i will just add that it is really time that People understand that No one needs anymore Someone else to teach him/her what/how to think. We are independent and make our choices freely. Our Consciousness is ever evolving.
A couple of points, though:
Reading this 'balancing review', i could not help but think that some People out there do not seem to understand or are not willing to accept that the Paradigm is shifting, that a New Era is being born, that the Reality and the System behind it need some thorough rethinking and fixing.
I also noticed that the whole 'Apology' is based on the Absolute and Unchallenged Value of Market, Free-ride Capitalism, Profit and Material Expansion.
I think that the current state of the hereupon based Economy speaks for itself.
Marxism/Socialism/URSS.
Those Experiences were in no shape or form better or different from Free-Market-Economy, with regard to the Environment, Harmony between Humans, Nature and other Life Forms; but this being said, it remains also interesting to see how the authors of that paper carefully avoided any reference to the role the Western Capitalist Alliance and the Church (remember the 'merits' of the Late Pope John Paul II) massively played in the Fall of that Alternative Structure.
I see nothing perse wrong in being 'Left' - as a part of the all covering Humans Experiences in their Search of Happiness.

This paper neglected, in my opinion, also one Crucial Element of Project Venus, namely the Inner Connection and Balance to be searched and, hopefully, be established between Spiritual Needs, Human Development and Nature as a Whole.
Ecology and Harmony are here paramount.

Finally, this article is, in my understanding, just another interpretation - and everyone is entitled to that - and it treats mainly of Details, for the authors themselves acknowledged that the Core of the Analysis of 'Zeitgeist: Addendum' has some grounds.

I made freely my Choice upon Discernment. And i have some work to do.


Regards,

RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

Last edited by RaKaR; 10-11-2008 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Omission: verb 'played'.
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:03 PM   #12
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Isn't calling Chavez a dictator a little disinformative? Was Salvador Allende a dictator as well?
If it must again fall in the American trap of Leftist vs Conservatives argumentation as a basis for analysis, then there is no true dialogue possible. The ideology will drive the intent.

Those people would benefit from talking to each other, without the stain of polarity. In other words from outside of their boxes, whether it be the right or left box. And they might find that they have not the answer individually but have it together.

There won't be money forever on this planet. Money is part of a system that binds man to a form of slavery.
On the other hand, man has no real will, so the few would have to carry the many if all boundaries afforded by a monetary system was to disappear right now. When the planet is more evolved, the consciousness of individuals won't need artificial incentives to move forward.

Today's two major lines of power tension, sex and money, are used to funnel the energy of humanity into the sphere of a civilization that uses that energy for its own good at the expense of the individual. Those lines of tension are the basis for the instinctual drive to dominate. It is therefore not surprising that those two lines of tension are at the base of the greatest number of homicides on the globe. Therefore, people are not free, for all the talks of freedom they have, freedom remains a philosophical concept.

And intelligent, articulate people, should leave the prison of their ideologies to really talk, which also means to really listen, to each other. Unfortunately they would rather argue as representatives of their ideologies, instantaneously losing the ability to represent themselves as free minds.

Money systems remains because human psychology is not fundamentally real but is a construction based on the rules of the civilization. And this civilization is based on the strong emotions that are activated by sex and money. When psychology is deprived of those, the psychological man becomes quite depressed. And those who are spiritual and abandon those forces become useless to themselves and to others, because they develop no will.

Freedom will begin when the mind cannot be hypnotized with ideologies. And it is then only that people will start talking instead of chatting.
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:13 PM   #13
Richard T
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raulduke View Post
The film also seems to assert that preying personalities and agendas are not part of human nature. While many of us are good people, can we all say that we never consider possible beneficial avenues presented to us, that may take advantage of unwhitting parties? We may never act on those considerations, but the possibility exists because we have free will.
I agree that this is a weakness of the addendum, which has to assume that the human mind results only from its material condition.

On the other hand, since we agree that there are influences that come from the invisible side of the mind, we must wonder about what we mean by free will.

It is not free will that the forces that be want to subdue, on the contrary. They want you to believe and reinforce the concept of free will. What they want to subdue is freedom. And the concept of free will is used to hide the prison that is holding humanity captive.
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:39 PM   #14
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

This video was VERY compelling. But I would contend with a couple of issues in it and also make a comment if I may.

1. Although a “resourced based economy” sounds promising, “technology” would not be the only valuable commodity that humans wield. We must be careful in limiting personal or social value to only materialistic things. There are other potentially shared values which can be realized. Of course I realize the problems that have arisen in history with non-tangible based “values” which reside beyond scientific observation and consensus. But what I am speaking about is not beyond social sciences and certainly not limited to mere beLIEf.

2. I don’t agree that religions only value is in “emotional” solace for its believers. However, I should state that I feel the core of the Zeitgeist argument is against the institutionalization of spirituality, which is “religion”. And they have clearly demonstrated in both of their videos major problems with religious “beLIEf” systems. So, let me just say there are indeed practitioners of religions and others forms of non-institutionalized spirituality who EXPERIENTIALLY recognize numerous values beyond mere “emotional” appeasement.

3. Economics isn’t my strong point so I’m curious. Since the “power elite” can create “fiat” money (money created out of thin air backed by no substance), why couldn’t they just one day increase the value of gold (etc) to be equal with their paper (or digital) money?
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
I agree that this is a weakness of the addendum, which has to assume that the human mind results only from its material condition.

On the other hand, since we agree that there are influences that come from the invisible side of the mind, we must wonder about what we mean by free will.

It is not free will that the forces that be want to subdue, on the contrary. They want you to believe and reinforce the concept of free will. What they want to subdue is freedom. And the concept of free will is used to hide the prison that is holding humanity captive.
Deep, impartial analysis, indeed!

Thanks for reminding us of the Studies of Mr Sigmund Freud and others on this domain, Member Richard T.
It would be fair, i guess, to state that, sometimes things are not quite what they seem to be or what we assume them to be.

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Old 10-11-2008, 01:20 PM   #16
Reveling John
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Question Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

You know what, cutting this review up and exploring the language out-of-context is frankly the only way to demonstrate how fool hardy the statements are. These individual statements are absolute mis-truths (lies), which have been strategically placed into the middle of a valid argument or tacked on to the end. They are already out-of-context, in the way in which they are originally used!

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacelovinman View Post
http://www.freedom-force.org/freedom...refpage=issues

If only we abolished all money and private property everything would be great. All resources should collectively belong to all humans of the world. Intelligent management of resources and technology could allow everyone to be free. The world would turn into some utopia. All crime would go away and greed and corruption would go away. We should be a one world community.
So, what's the argument here? Are we supposed to be cajoled by the cynical sarcasm that he leaves dripping from a simple synopsis of the message?
Let me show you what this same content means to me:

In the wake of a once eminent collapse, human beings realized that they had the opportunity to take steps towards an evolutionary leap in social, ecological, spiritual, moral and emotional health. Like the ancient thought of traditional indigenous peoples, they recognized the inherent value of their connections to the earth, the stars, each other and the underlying mechanism that is responsible for the eternal dance of awareness and perception. The acceptance of a universal obligation of each and every element to the well-being of every other element became not only the rule-of-law, but the foundation of logic, incentive, and fulfillment (as opposed to these things hanging on the thread of monetary gain). In such a society would crime as we know it still exist? Would corruption have any motive or method of operation? Would this picture of a inter-universal dynamic civilization be accurately analyzed as a "One World Community"?

So, how does that sound without the sarcastic tom-foolery?

Quote:
It even specifically says that voting for liberty candidates like Ron Paul is the wrong thing to do.
This is implied, but it is not stated in this way. That would be one interpretation.
Quote:
I guess we should give up all hope and let bad politicians do whatever they want to us.
Nope. This is neither implied nor said.

Quote:
It is full of doublespeak, wild assumptions, and crazy socialist propaganda.
Show me.... like I'm a small child. Be specific

Quote:
It puts in just enough truths that we believe in to trick people into following the wrong path.
If you think that anything that comes out of this video is dictating that you should follow any, and I mean ANY imperative that is contrary to your own internal impression of Love, then you have just about completely turned your mind off to the intent of the author and of the entire movement. DO NOT FOLLOW. How can anyone *trick* you, when they are telling you to DO YOU? JUST DO YOU.


Quote:
...
Jonathan, 2008 Oct 6
...
And here's the reply:

Quote:
REPLY FROM EG:

... I watched it two nights ago and was deeply disturbed by its message... So here are my comments on a few items of concern:

1. The information about the Federal Reserve is, for the most part, right on target. However, I practically fell out of my chair when the program repeated that old, silly argument about the Fed not creating enough money to cover the cost of interest on debt; and, therefore, the world must forever be in debt. I knew right there that the writer did not read The Creature from Jekyll Island or, if he did, he forgot my analysis of this common myth. For those who are interested in that topic, it is fund on pages 191-192 of The Creature.
Ok, so is he trying to sell me his book? Why doesn't he make specific arguments, right here, addressing specific claims from Addendum that he feels are inaccurate? Notice that he does not specifically say that any sentence in the Fed section is false. He implies that something may be false, and allows that implication to be broadly applied to the entire section. So, in short, he has made NO commentary about anything, allowing for his implications to speak for themselves, unless of course you go out, buy his book, and desperately search for what ever argument he may have made in said book.

Quote:
2. The next jolt came when the program praised Civil War Greenbacks, calling them debt-free. Actually, Greenbacks were contrary to the U.S. Constitution and, although they were not fiat money issued by the banks, they were fiat money issued by the government. That was better than paying interest on nothing to bankers, but they still wiped out the purchasing power of American money through massive inflation.... It never ceases to amaze me how people think that the solution to money created out of nothing by those big, bad bankers is to have money created out of nothing by those nice, trustworthy politicians.
Ok, that never ceases to amaze me either, BUT....
Quote:
Yet, that is what this program supports.
This statement is what we call a lie. Addendum does not support the creation of a government produced fiat currency. Addendum does not support ANY economy founded on ANY form of monetary system/relationship. Did this guy even get half-way through the film? If he watched the entire piece, which he seems to indicate he did, then his use of this tag statement is an expression of insincerity (i.e. lying).

Quote:
...This, of course, is a half truth that is just as dangerous as a total lie. It is true about the propagandists and their strategy to scare the public into supporting military intervention in those countries, but it is false to portray those dictators as great humanitarians who cared only for the well being of their people. That is total bunk. They WERE aligned with the Soviet Union and they WERE part of a Marxist/Leninist strategy to dominate Latin America; a strategy that continues to this day.
This is SOOOOO transparent. This guy is screaming "I'm a free-market economist who cannot bare to face the truth of my ideology's impact in the real world, on real people!" So is Bolivia part of some Marxist ploy to dominate South America? Are the indigenous peoples of those lands, who have been exploited, bamboozled and sucked dry for centuries, demonstrating psychosis when they move to elect leaders who champion change, fairness and compassion?

That's f'n horse-**** and that guy is too intelligent to not know that.

Quote:
...In his book, Perkins reveals this same slant. He exposes the foul tactics of international corporations, the IMF, and World Bank, but he never mentions a Leftist dictator, such as Fidel Castro or Hugo Chavez without praising them. Perkins is a collectivist aligned with the Left, and that strongly influences his telling of this story. Yet the producers of the video make no mention of this bias and give him an inordinate amount of time to present his slanted view without challenge.
WITHOUT CHALLENGE?

Decades of unchallenged, unmediated propaganda have informed every aspect of the American experience of these events. DECADES. Perkins comes on and speaks for about 15 minutes on subjects into which the government has sunk billions of dollars for hundreds of thousands of hours of fictional media to keep us *informed*. UNCHALLENGED?

Are you kidding me?!!!


Quote:
That being the case, we must change mankind to reject profit and we must work together on some other basis. It is never quite clear what that basis is...
IF IT IS NOT IMMEDIATELY CLEAR TO YOU WHAT THE NEW *BASIS* OF HUMAN INTERACTIVITY SHOULD BE, WILL BE, ACTUALLY IS, AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN, then let me help you out:

The Basis of the new paradigm is Love.

Unconditional Love.

Quote:
... but, whatever it is, it will be administered and directed by an elite group, at least in the beginning.
No. This is never said. This is never implied. This statement is a LIE.

Quote:

...The desire for profit is merely the desire to be compensated for our labor, our creativity, our knowledge, or even for our risk.
This is not true. The desire for PROFIT has no relationship to the incentive for a CREATIVE act, whatsoever. I create because I fill compelled to express something that can only be expressed as an act of creation. Money is no incentive. Someone who makes art for the sake of profit, using profit as an incentive to do her work, is not partaking in an act of creation. She is working, which is very, very different. Someone who receives compensation subsequent to producing a genuine artifact of creation is not being payed for the act of creation; they are being paid for the use of the intellectual property which represents the creation itself. Money does NOT generate art.

Quote:
Without profit, very little would be accomplished in the world - not even if everyone spent a few years in labor camps to be re-educated.
Show me. Prove it. Give specific examples of the non-accomplishments of a society in which financial or political profit did not play a fundamental role. This statement is based on NOTHING. It is complete presumption based on no 'real world' experiences, whatsoever.

Quote:
It is a basic part of man's nature and is the mainspring of human progress, as Henry Grady Weaver described it in his book by that same title. Throughout history, whenever man lived in a system that allows him to be rewarded for his work, there has been great productivity and abundance.
Does he live in a hole in the ground? What does he have to say about these societies/cultures?

Anasazi/Hopi
Maya
Yuman
Quechua
Inuit

Where is the proof that reward (profit) has lead to "great productivity and abundance"? For WHOM? And who was left on the ass end of the stick? What's the ratio of reapers-of-abundance to reapers-of-mysery and pain?
1:1 - no
1:10 - no
1:100 - nope
1:1000 - hmmm, so for every one on this planet that feels his basic needs are totally and fully accounted for and be rest assured in the continuity of his situation, how many folks around the world cannot feel that safety and well-being?

Quote:
...By contrast, where social engineers gained control of the state and restricted people from receiving the fruits of their labor, productivity fell, and scarcity was the norm.
As if these socialized societies were developing in bubble, completely unhindered by the pouring of historic amounts of wealth and resources into the concerted effort to destroy those societies. What simple minded being accepts this argument as being made upon any kind of sound foundation?


Ok, and this is how he ends his tirade:
Quote:
In summary, this program does NOT offer a cure. It offers a mega dose of the disease itself.
What disease! This is a meaningless statement. He may as well have said, "Zeitgeist Addendum does not support patriotism." So, what?!

In what way is it promoting a diseased world-view? In what way are it's principles inhibiting, restrictive, or hateful? In what way does it promote fear and anger?

In what way does it promote Love?

In what way does it promote Empowerment?

In what way does it promote Trust?

In what way does it promote Honesty?

In what way does it promote Hope?

In what way does it promote Personal Relevance?

In what way does share with us a vision of an intelligent and meaningful civilization, which we now have the opportunity to dream into being?
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:39 PM   #17
raulduke
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Hi guys. I'm back after a brief rest. I could not sleep w/ this wieghing on my mind.

nivosh,
I was planning on addressing you point by point, but I realised that this would only serve to further muddy the waters.
Instead I would like to address the two most imortant points (IMO) of your post that can be found in the quotes below.

1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nivosh View Post
WE NEED A TOTAL CHANGE OF THE SYSTEM, NOT JUST A FIX OF THE OLD ONE!
Agreed. But rest assured that the PTB will not simply step aside because we all want them to. It seems to me that Zietgiest Addendum dances around the notion (w/o ever addressing it) that in order for their utopia to exist: something very huge has to rock society so hard, as to deconstruct it completely. And then we could begin building this utopia.

Well trust me, the PTB are banking (no pun intended) on this something going their way and remaining on top in the wake of its aftremath.
I want a utopia too, but wanting one will not help. We must operate in their system (reality) in order to bring it down.


2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nivosh View Post
We do not have a free will!
This confuses me. Without free will, how can you expect to change the system?

Free will, I suppose, is a subjective term. You can educate yourself to the best of your abilty in order to make a decision. By the same token you can (regarding the same decision) rely on nothing but how you feel. Or you can combine the two and then decide. This is free will to me.

A selfless act is beautiful, in part, because it not forced. The option to do nothing or even to do evil is present.

We do have free will. It can be hi-jacked, but only so long as we remain ignorant.
If you belive that we do not have free will, then all is lost.

Sincerely, nivosh, I am interested to hear you clarify your opinions on these subjects, if you do not mind.


peace.

Last edited by raulduke; 10-11-2008 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:49 PM   #18
nivosh
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Quote:
nivosh,
I would like to say that I am not happy that you have chopped and spliced quotes from the CRITICAL REVIEW and my post w/o labeling either.
Raulduke, i am sorry, I should have stated what quotation came from.
It was laziness that held me there...

i look forward to your adequately response to my misrepresentations.
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Old 10-11-2008, 02:01 PM   #19
nivosh
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

I have changed my earlier post to clearly state the quote source.

Thank you for helping me improve my self, Raulduke...
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Old 10-11-2008, 02:05 PM   #20
bennycog
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

what did YOU think after YOU seen this documentary?
how did it make YOU feel?
did you feel it would wake the people up around you?
did you feel it would change our planet and how we conduct our lives?
did you feel it would create understanding among your brothers?
what does the person you most trust, feel about the information this documentary has brought into view? (not that most of us did not know how we are being manipulated).

answers dont need to be givin. they just need to be thought about.

for me i feel it can be the begining of the thought process that the masses can use to awaken themselves.

most definitly like any infomation we have been givin at anytime, has another agenda ,or not quite managed to embrace us with what we feel within ourselves is the truth.

benny
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Old 10-11-2008, 02:05 PM   #21
Providence
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Hi Richard T -

Its me again on another thread....! I really enjoy reading your posts.

So... if money systems remain because human psychology is a construction based on the rules of the civilization, and civilization is based on strong emotions.... then what logically follows is that strong emotions are rooted in human psychology. What you postulated seems like a circular argument to me - unless I am misunderstanding it here.

Also, if pyschology is deprived of sex and money, and those who are spiritual abandon those forces, I don't believe they become useless at all - they are freed indeed and are revered in history as our most outstanding philosophers.

P
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Old 10-11-2008, 02:11 PM   #22
RaKaR
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Precisely, Member Reveling John; i would just add: let them show us the Money!:-)


And again, what are they complaining about? What are they afraid of?
Is rationally choosing and getting ready for a Sound Spiritual Growth a Dangerous Path?
Isn't gathering and critically examining information( both intuitively and by way of contre-checking); building Sound Communities upon shared views and values and drawing plans in order to move forward, upon Rationality, Faisability and Harmony with Nature and Mother earth the True Essence of Project Avalon?
Isn't Project Avalon about making Fundamental Choice; heartfully embracing what one intuitively feels as an Expression of the New times; accepting the New Paradigm, getting ready for the Shift of Consciousness; care for one another?
Is 'Zeitgeist: Addendum' not about all that?
Just wondering, really.

Regards,

RakaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk
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Old 10-11-2008, 02:31 PM   #23
Truth voice 2012
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

This doesnt really sound like a balanced analysis to me. Sounds like a terrified PTB attempt at a debunk. I love how obvious ye make it. Its funny. The final truth of the matter is the profit based society were in doesnt work for any one except the PTB. It has to end or freedom and possibly humanity will end. Im afraid one of the very few ways out of this prison happens to be a resource based society. I know the debunkers here will have to lose their power, status and money and drop down to the same level as every one else. It will damage your large ego's and make ye throw a strop but everything will be ok. I dont think youll be able to stop the movement now anyway. It started even before the film came out
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Old 10-11-2008, 03:06 PM   #24
raulduke
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nivosh View Post
i look forward to your adequately response to my misrepresentations.
I am sorry and I apologize for the way I phrased that. I was sleepy, but that's no excuse. It was antogonistic and does not further this debate in a positive direction.

I noticed that our most recent posts ovelapped somewhat in terms of time, but did you have a chance to read my 4th post in this thread, just above your 2nd and 3rd?
These are the concerns I really hold about Zietgeist Addendum and your original post nivosh.

I really think we are on the same page here regarding the kind of society we would like to live in.
I'm just concerned that what Zietgiest Addendum is proposing, while extremely well meaning, is easily corruptable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nivosh View Post
Thank you for helping me improve my self, Raulduke...
If you meant this honestly, then, I could not be happier.

peace.
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Old 10-11-2008, 03:42 PM   #25
RaKaR
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Default Re: Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

Quote:
Originally Posted by raulduke View Post
I am sorry and I apologize for the way I phrased that. I was sleepy, but that's no excuse. It was antogonistic and does not further this debate in a positive direction.

I noticed that our most recent posts ovelapped somewhat in terms of time, but did you have a chance to read my 4th post in this thread, just above your 2nd and 3rd?
These are the concerns I really hold about Zietgeist Addendum and your original post nivosh.

I really think we are on the same page here regarding the kind of society we would like to live in.
I'm just concerned that what Zietgiest Addendum is proposing, while extremely well meaning, is easily corruptable.




If you meant this honestly, then, I could not be happier.

peace.

Thanks for your sincere concern and for urging us to remain wise and vigilant, Member raulduke("I really think we are on the same page here regarding the kind of society we would like to live in.
I'm just concerned that what Zietgiest Addendum is proposing, while extremely well meaning, is easily corruptable.").

We shall do our best.

Regards,
RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk
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