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Old 04-22-2009, 05:01 AM   #1
no caste
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Default Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

Tide turns towards prosecution and investigation
Faced with overwhelming public demand,
Obama now says he is open to prosecution

The government's effort to stop prosecution has backfired. In the last few days the demands from people around the country and the world for the investigation and prosecution of Bush Administration torture officials has caused a dramatic shift in the U.S. political scene. IndictBushNow has mounted a major campaign flooding Congressional representatives with demands for justice and a constituent letter writing campaign to newspapers around the country.

Under growing pressure from the people, President Obama has made a significant departure from the his position of last week that, "nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past." Just today he stated that the prosecution of those who authorized the sadistic torture tactics "is going to be more of a decision for the attorney general within the parameters of various laws and I don't want to prejudge that."

Events are starting to break quickly:

The New York Times on Sunday issued a major editorial, "The Torturers' Manifesto," that began, "To read the four newly released memos on prisoner interrogation written by George W. Bush’s Justice Department is to take a journey into depravity." The editorial continued:

"Until Americans and their leaders fully understand the rules the Bush administration concocted to justify such abuses and who set the rules and who approved them there is no hope of fixing a profoundly broken system of justice and ensuring that that these acts are never repeated....

"And if the administration will not conduct a thorough investigation of these issues, then Congress has a constitutional duty to hold the executive branch accountable. If that means putting Donald Rumsfeld and Alberto Gonzales on the stand, even Dick Cheney, we are sure Americans can handle it. "

This view is being echoed by both major newspapers and local publications all over the country. There is no stepping back now.

Today's front page of the New York Times has this headline: "Pressure Mounts on President Obama for a More Thorough Investigation." The article goes on to say that the release of the torture memos has "provoked a furor that continued to grow on Monday as critics on various fronts assailed his position."

Congressional officials have called for accountability. Diane Feinstein, chair of Senate Intelligence Committee has issued a letter to the Obama Administration requesting that it withhold decisions on prosecution until the Committee is able to conduct a thorough investigation.

Feeling the heat, Dick Cheney has taken a gamble and gone on television to state that more memos should be released. As New York Magazine wrote this morning, "The more the American public learns and thinks about all of this, the more it's going to ask for someone's head ..."

If you want to write Congress -
https://secure2.convio.net/pepib/sit...rAction&id=131
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:20 AM   #2
Christo888
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

Time to turn up the Light ever so brighter... 'All in.'
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:41 AM   #3
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

Good thread No caste, my only concern is that, Those guys have their own people in all the right places, Judges, politicians etc. Lots of things may be said, but do you really think Bush or any of the others will be taken down. I don't want to come across as negative, but if they did go down, maybe "WE" are having a positive effect on this whole situation.
Henry
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:51 AM   #4
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

We had a similiar thread a short while ago about prosecuting the torturers. I suggested that the buck stops at the top, at the President!! These orders to use methods of torture ,come from, or were approved from the highest level wouldn't you think?
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:10 AM   #5
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

I certainly hope that this goes through. It would dredge up my support of Obama by a small notch if he stopped obstructing justice on this.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:24 AM   #6
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

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We had a similar thread a short while ago about prosecuting the torturers. I suggested that the buck stops at the top, at the President!! These orders to use methods of torture ,come from, or were approved from the highest level wouldn't you think?
Commander In Chief. Executive. Spying. Adapting laws. Profiteering. Especially with questions still about 9/11 as the 'basis' for many of these activities.

Agreed.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:16 AM   #7
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

The POTUS has no real power..

He's mearly a figurehead to parade before the masses.

There are others unknown [as yet] that wield the real power & play the role/roles of puppetmaster to the POTUS

..and the same statement applies to all major world leaders

Bush was a scapegoat. He wouldn't know which hand to wipe his backside with unless somebody told him [and reminded him to use loo roll]

Last edited by Colin; 04-22-2009 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:37 AM   #8
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

Hi Humble Janitor,

Your view is exactly why the documents were released in the first place.

We all know where bush will be heading if the going gets hot, so he's not that bothered. I'm sure that the rest of the 'Gang of Eight' will also have made other arrangements.

Other people in this thread have said that there are always the right people in the right places and if this was the case for Bush, those documents would never have been released in the first place. But they were. Why? Several reasons.

Firstly, nationally; because of the economic crisis being felt in the US. This story will set up a smoke screen to defuse the reporting on the economic crisis, the corruption of the TARP money, underhand moves by the banking sector etc., even for a short time.

Secondly, internationally; the US has lost a lot of it's pulling power among other nations of the world. As the US suffers, the injured dog is being kicked and it's beginning to hurt. It's one of the reasons why the US hasn't reacted so much about North Korea, Iran and the like, wanting to concentrate its' newsworthy energy to the fifteen year old pirates in Somalia.

Obama is a very good diplomat and is needing to change a lot of US stance around the world. He knows that the political arrogance sent out by the US government in the past will come back and bite it on the touchas.

Eventually there will be more documents released to side track the American and world public to keep the minds off the unemployment, foreclosures, credit crunch and corruption that is now starting to appear between the cracks in the US government, which with all said and done is done most of the time without the prior knowledge of the President, whomever it may be.

Best regards,

Steve


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Originally Posted by Humble Janitor View Post
I certainly hope that this goes through. It would dredge up my support of Obama by a small notch if he stopped obstructing justice on this.

Last edited by Steve_A; 04-22-2009 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

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Eventually there will be more documents released to side track the American and world public to keep the minds off the unemployment, foreclosures, credit crunch and corruption that is now starting to appear between the cracks in the US government, which with all said and done is done most of the time without the prior knowledge of the President, whomever it may be.

Best regards,

Steve
Exactly Steve!

More smoke & mirrors..
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

Right. Very astute observations. And don't forget, never waste a good crisis.

If Obama were to start in on these prosecutions, that's the time to watch what legislation is bulldozed through Congress. Because THAT'S what will have the lasting effect.

I now automatically look for what the "other hand" is doing, when they appear to be doing something they figure "the people" would want.
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:58 PM   #11
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

Alright Colin, Steve_A and myplanet2. Let's just forget about it all. As you all point out, it's futile.
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Old 04-22-2009, 04:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

I don't think it's at all futile. we all still have so much available to be learned about discernment. Every opportunity should be used for practice.

The PTB even lie when it would actually make more sense to tell the truth. It's like an early warning filter. If they talk at all, I simply assume it's because they are reinforcing a program they are running on us, or that they want to throw us off of some scent with a distraction, almost in ventriloquist fashion.

It's entertaining, in a sordid way.
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

I thought the idealist in me had been kicked way too many times to be able to stand anymore but I guess not. As much as I know we are lied to, forced into playing a game and have the scales weighted against us by TPTB, I still see positives in this. Maybe that's just programming or maybe it's my gut talking. Too hard to tell. If we prosecute Bush and people with the right hearts (they do exist) are in the right place, perhaps we can make some headway into exposing everything. The trick is to be able to watch this while we watch everything else. Yes, it's distracting but I can multi-task. =)
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:53 PM   #14
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

If Obama Appears to be holding the Bush administration to task for what they did, (little of which Obama is doing anything to change, policy-wise, even where he could if he wanted to) Then that just goes to reinforce the "good cop" image that will be used to grease the application of the tyranny already long planned. President of the US is a scripted role.

Anytime those in office appear to be doing something good, you can be pretty sure there is something much less good being slipped through unnoticed amongst all the rah rah-ing.

Probably this time, it's slamming through Obama's proposal that giving the all new authority to create all new money to the IMF needs fast tracking like the banker bailouts did.

Watch us smack those bad bushies while we finish destroying the dollar and granting defacto permission to IMF to establish the new global currency.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:16 PM   #15
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Boy I'm gonna take some heat on this one, None of us will agree on every U.S. administration, I for one am disgusted as to what has become of our congress and senate. . But as I do in business, when I get a bad debt, I accept the debt , write it off and move forward not looking back only learning from the past and not living it . Going in reverse is counter productive to future goals and a waste of resources.

If our new president ran on a premise of hope and change, just exactly how productive is this going to be looking at the shadows of the past. I didn't agree with all of the Bush Administration policies either but I do agree that this is a great distraction of what is going on right now. Is that by design as Steve pointed out.

The amercian people voted in change, change happened but somehow that doesn't seem to be enough. Maybe I'm wrong but if somehow all this negative energy at trying to draw blood was used for the better of us all in a postive direction , wouldn't we all be better off ?
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

Hi no caste,

I don't know if it's futile, but I do know it's politics.

Brazil thrives on politics. It seems that the worse off the country gets, the more political games are played, many very obvious.

There was a Senator called Antonio Carlos Magalhães, a very successful politician who made a career out of what he did.

His trick was to keep mum with all the illegal goings on in the Brazilian government. Everybody knew that he knew and he became almost untouchable because he could have put a lot of people in very hot water.

Before he died, he was eventually accused of rigging a votation board in the Senate, so he started to leak information which began to compromise different people. As the compromised started to fight amongst themselves, trying to defend themselves and rebatting accusations, they left Magalhães alone for a time.

However later on he did have to resign to protect his political rights.

But the point is, if you're worried about being attacked, throw something out there to take the focus away from yourself. It may not save your butt, however it could give you enough time to finalize what you are wanting to do.

Best regards,

Steve
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Alright Colin, Steve_A and myplanet2. Let's just forget about it all. As you all point out, it's futile.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:19 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by pyrangello View Post
Boy I'm gonna take some heat on this one, None of us will agree on every U.S. administration, I for one am disgusted as to what has become of our congress and senate. . But as I do in business, when I get a bad debt, I accept the debt , write it off and move forward not looking back only learning from the past and not living it . Going in reverse is counter productive to future goals and a waste of resources.
pyrangello,

The beneit is for the future. One of the objectives of putting Bush on trial is to expose who were behind the controlled demolitions, the NWO of torture, etc.

These people are still around behind the scene. If we don't expose them, they will come back and bite you and me in the s - in the future. Yes in the future.

-feeler
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:51 PM   #18
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Hey feeler , I understand your point and in a right and fair world where there were rules even with the bad guys I would absolutely agree. There isn't a fair battlefield anymore, I'm not jewish but remember the 200+ buses that got blown up in Israel a few years back, Kids , you name it. Or the USS Cole where 17 kid sailors were sleeping in the ship when it was blown up. Or lets go back to the bombing in Lebanon when over 200 marines died in their sleep from 1 guy in a fuel tanker. Then there's the really bad ones of throwing a man in a wheelchair off a cruise ship or the publicized beheadings. Ya it's bad out there. As for the world trade center, Iraq, Guantanimo you could make arguments swaying either way, I do realize that.

Throw all these vicious people in with the upper tier of the control enthusists fanatics, federal reserve and their board, illuminati's , bildeberger group and so on and on. It's not a structured lets play fair world anymore, honor is gone among thieves even here in this country, they just do it right in the open now.

Do I want to see anyone get tortured, not really, I will take on an individual who is abusing an animal let alone another human being. But wouldn't it be fair to say that there are just some beings here on earth that just consume oxygen and whatever else they can for their own selfs with no rules. A roaming preditor. At that point should the word compassion be even used. Very Bad people do very unspeakable things, someone has to make those decisions to deal with them.

Let me ask you this Feeler, if you knew someone who knew a person that had full intentions to harm you and your family, rape, beatings , ect. How far would you go to get to that person before they got to your family, What would you be prepared to do to ensure without a doubt they did no harm to your family?

I'm not looking for a fight just an understanding as you did explain to me , a constructive dialog as that is what avalon is about. There is much goodness and light on this site , there are also ones on this site that protect the people of light and goodness as there is a recognition of much evil out there as well. " when good men do nothing eveil prevails". Yes there are people in charge that need to make some extremley unpleasant decisions. I didn't say they were right or wrong , just decisions that someone had to make. And yes there are times when some things should be exposed but is this really one of those times . Please your comments.
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Old 04-23-2009, 12:21 AM   #19
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin View Post
Bush was a scapegoat. He wouldn't know which hand to wipe his backside with unless somebody told him [and reminded him to use loo roll]
erm.... i bet that would be his daddy.
but, he did as told. ergo.......hang the bugger!!
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Old 04-23-2009, 12:23 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin View Post
The POTUS has no real power..

He's mearly a figurehead to parade before the masses.

There are others unknown [as yet] that wield the real power & play the role/roles of puppetmaster to the POTUS

..and the same statement applies to all major world leaders

Bush was a scapegoat. He wouldn't know which hand to wipe his backside with unless somebody told him [and reminded him to use loo roll]
YOu got that right!
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Old 04-23-2009, 12:42 AM   #21
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

GW Bush is intelligent, articulate, very cunning, supremely manipulative and one of the most able people I have ever come across to 'Buddy up' with people of all walks of life.

Thats if you were useful.


His act to the world was excellent, and well timed 'Bushisms' got him off time and time again.

Think of this - if an intelligent, articulate man had been in power during 9-11 and GW2 and TWOT, we would be screaming for blood because we would realise it was deliberate and had been manipulated.

This way, it was made to seem like an idiot blundered into some thing he had no clue about.

Now that my people is clever.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:22 AM   #22
Humble Janitor
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_A View Post
Hi Humble Janitor,

Your view is exactly why the documents were released in the first place.

We all know where bush will be heading if the going gets hot, so he's not that bothered. I'm sure that the rest of the 'Gang of Eight' will also have made other arrangements.

Other people in this thread have said that there are always the right people in the right places and if this was the case for Bush, those documents would never have been released in the first place. But they were. Why? Several reasons.

Firstly, nationally; because of the economic crisis being felt in the US. This story will set up a smoke screen to defuse the reporting on the economic crisis, the corruption of the TARP money, underhand moves by the banking sector etc., even for a short time.

Secondly, internationally; the US has lost a lot of it's pulling power among other nations of the world. As the US suffers, the injured dog is being kicked and it's beginning to hurt. It's one of the reasons why the US hasn't reacted so much about North Korea, Iran and the like, wanting to concentrate its' newsworthy energy to the fifteen year old pirates in Somalia.

Obama is a very good diplomat and is needing to change a lot of US stance around the world. He knows that the political arrogance sent out by the US government in the past will come back and bite it on the touchas.

Eventually there will be more documents released to side track the American and world public to keep the minds off the unemployment, foreclosures, credit crunch and corruption that is now starting to appear between the cracks in the US government, which with all said and done is done most of the time without the prior knowledge of the President, whomever it may be.

Best regards,

Steve
I don't fully understand where you're coming from but I don't consider it a distraction.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:24 AM   #23
Humble Janitor
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

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Originally Posted by no caste View Post
Alright Colin, Steve_A and myplanet2. Let's just forget about it all. As you all point out, it's futile.
I should have known that someone would jump on me for supporting such a thing. I'm reminded that the disdain for Obama leaks into just about anything.

I agree with you. It's futile to try and have any hope that these criminals will be brought to justice, nevermind the fact that we can make it happen.

It's only a distraction if you are unable to keep your eyes on the prize. I've never had that problem.
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Old 04-23-2009, 06:14 AM   #24
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Default Re: Tide Turns - Prosecuting Bush?

It doesn't matter what actually happens - the main thing is that the truth is coming out.

In the course of things, the Evil men will get what is due them.

However, I don't like this baying for blood. The only force that is capable of transforming an an enemy to a friend is love.

A..
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:47 AM   #25
feeler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyrangello View Post
Do I want to see anyone get tortured, not really, I will take on an individual who is abusing an animal let alone another human being. But wouldn't it be fair to say that there are just some beings here on earth that just consume oxygen and whatever else they can for their own selfs with no rules. A roaming preditor. At that point should the word compassion be even used. Very Bad people do very unspeakable things, someone has to make those decisions to deal with them.

Let me ask you this Feeler, if you knew someone who knew a person that had full intentions to harm you and your family, rape, beatings , ect. How far would you go to get to that person before they got to your family, What would you be prepared to do to ensure without a doubt they did no harm to your family?

I'm not looking for a fight just an understanding as you did explain to me , a constructive dialog as that is what avalon is about. There is much goodness and light on this site , there are also ones on this site that protect the people of light and goodness as there is a recognition of much evil out there as well. " when good men do nothing eveil prevails". Yes there are people in charge that need to make some extremley unpleasant decisions. I didn't say they were right or wrong , just decisions that someone had to make. And yes there are times when some things should be exposed but is this really one of those times . Please your comments.
pyrangello, first of all, the 9/11 events were staged. The roaming predictors who orchestrated the controlled demolitions are still at large. Even if I assume the role of a protector (to protect my family and the innocents for example), I would not torture a human. The person might have killed hundreds and have all the intention of killing me and my family. I would still treat the person the way I would like to be treated. In recent years I have stopped believing in "an eye for an eye" or "the end justifies the means."

"When good men do nothing evil prevails." Exactly. We should expose, not torture. Expose the evil doers. Declare War on Torture. That's the way to protect our loved ones, and ensure a safer future for them.

-feeler
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