For "Survivors" Eyes Only

[Tez]

Hi there,
I had been on 2012Forum regularly before the avalon site came up, and have posted quite a bit there over time, under the How to Survive" thread.
The posts are still up, and all downloads can be accessed from this area - a bit too many to relist here, but can do if needed in a single post.

http://www.2012forum.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10

A lot of the downloads are at Rapidshare.

Tez

A RUDIMENTARY LESSON IN 4-10 SHOTGUNS
Base on the personal experience and opinions of the HistoryCircus

4-10 shotguns are an incredible resource for the hunter. I’ll spare you the details about the gauge, shot size, etc. I’ll just give you what works for me, and how I am planning to prepare to hunt my own food, and defend my people if need be.

4-10:

This is basic – all one really needs (The old guy is not me by the way).

The most common ammunition (called “buckshot”) looks like this:



There are a plethora of different guns, and properly gauged ammunition. The shells above spray a wave of small lead pellets toward the target. You can buy single projectiles to shoot (not small pellets, a single bullet), and they typically look like this:



They are commonly called “slugs,” and shoot one single projectile (like a rifle or pistol) instead of a bunch of small lead pellets. Quite frankly, and this is my opinion, “slugs” are for killing people – hunting turkey, pheasant, etc. does not require the precision necessitated by launching such a projectile. Nevertheless, keep both types of ammunition on hand, and put much more emphasis on buckshot than slugs.

A 4-10 is a fowling piece. You will kill a deer or a moose if you manage to sneak up on them, get the barrel right in their face, and shoot point-blank. There are moose and deer in North America that even the best 4-10, at fifty feet, will only bounce off of their skin. The 4-10 is not a big animal gun. It is for birds.

For all birds, shoot for the head. For anyone here, once you practice – and while time allows, dear god, you need to go to the woods or the nearest range and practice – you will find the 4-10 the most accurate, distance shooting shotgun in existence. It is the perfect turkey gun, but all birds, in a pinch, can be eaten.

PRICES AND RULES:

Brand new, all guns can be pricy. Wal-Mart wants $500+ for their models. You can find them in pawn shops cheaper. The cheapest is a private sale – some of the cheapest I have found have been through www.craigslist.com, and other classified sites. You don’t have to register shotguns in any state in the United States – other places may vary (especially the UK). You can show up at the seller’s house, put out cash, and drive home with it. Be aware, if you have been convicted in the United States of a felony charge – even if it is non-violent – you can be prosecuted for owning a shotgun. If you are a reformed criminal who has truly changed, that does not matter. You can’t vote either – go figure.

Anyway, the 4-10 shotgun is the best bird-hunting gun on the market.

No pictures showing above (yet, anyway) - H.Circus ...

Please clarify -

A 10 gauge (the largest gauge for which ammo is commercially available) has a bore diameter of .77 inches.

A 410 shotgun (the smallest shotgun) has a bore diameter of .41 inches.


BIG difference.




Also - Craigslist actively deletes gun listing when they are reported.

And to Unloaded's post - most gun shows now require permitting if purchasing through a vendor, but private sales on-site are a different story.

Sorry, I can't figure out how to get images on here. Still trying to figure it out, and edit appropriately.

[bosr]

4-10 is light gauge shotgun.
10 gauge is a much bigger load.
I have seen slugs bounce off of targets without doing any damage.


I would suggest that you stay with .12 ga as the ammo is commonly available and if you run out of ammo you will have an easier time finding it.

In most states purchase of ANY gun requires a background check if purchased through a dealer operating under a federal firearms license (FFL).

It is legal to purchase from any individual (Non-FFL) without going through a background check or licensing procedure. Unless you are a felon.

Personal Opinion:
The entire concept of gun registration is the most absurdly stupid idea I have ever seen. I have been to gun shows where licensed dealers have display tables next to non licensed enthusiasts. The dealers are required to do the background checks, etc. while the guy right next to him does not. Please tell me this is not a government run operation.

4-10 all the way - my haste made waste. Thanks for the correction. I have edited the earlier post so as not to confuse anyone taking notes. For the record, in my earlier post on the 4-10 shotgun, I confused it narratively with the 10 gauge, but have changed the earlier post. It is the 4-10 I recommend as the premier fowling piece. Again, thanks R.Z. - I call super brain fart on that one.

In the early days of Craig's list, I saw many types of gun for sale - the change must have have been within the last two years or so. Nevertheless, I just went on Craig's list, and noticed the gun entries were no longer there.

However - plow through the barter sections - they are still there. 4-10s specifically, no, as I only spent a few minutes there, but guns in general yes. There might be a 4-10 there.

But, there are a host of other web sites that a simple google search will turn up - I did a quick search, and found many. The most important resource one might take advantage of is pawn shops. They will have the cheapest prices. Gun shows will also have cheap prices, and shotgun and rifle transactions can be made a lot easier in that venue than handguns.

Still trying to get those pictures up.

[bosr]

Originally Posted by historycircus

shotgun and rifle transactions can be made a lot easier in that venue than handguns.

Handguns typically have a mandatory waiting period unless you have a state issued concealed weapon permit. If you don't have a conceal permit, get one.

Just a reminder, do NOT alter your gun unless you know the regulations. You can very easily find yourself with a free vacation courtesy of the ATF.

I'll say more on this later, but I think hand guns are kind of pointless. They are not the optimum hunting weapon, nor are they the optimum combat weapon. They are close-quarters combat weapons, and in many ways, a status-symbol holdout from the nineteenth century. They'll get you out of the city - which make them a worthwhile consideration - but they won't keep you fed.

[bosr]

I would argue that after dropping your long gun while climbing a tree to avoid being eaten by a bear that you would be very open to having a hand gun for survival.

Anyone looking to quickly relocate to a rural wonderland next to a lake and a river in Arkansas? I can help you find long term accommodations that can be worry free if you can pay a year rent up front...with all that cash you have in the Bank of Posturpedic.


sadly, people here are still clueless...blind to what is coming...but we are salt of the earth simple folks ...people can hunt, fish, very resourceful, lots of land and trees and camping options...housing of all kinds from the riverside cabin to the economy studio...to just straight camping facilities. The reason for all of the excess lodging is that we are a tourist town in the summer months.

i just want city dwellers to know that a place like this feels right for hunkering down...if you come now you can find a place and just fit right in...we are a dry county, mostly older and families 7k people in our town...92% white folks around here...and lots of guns, normally only used for hunting and target practice. We are not as rural as you can get but you can get to nowhere from here.

your travel agent...for the big earth change adventure 2008!

let me know if you would like more information.

[efields]

Originally Posted by Sol Invictus

'They' have a suspected 'number' in mind, and thats 500 million people world wide.

500,000,000. Thats a figure that is thought to be a 'stabilised' amount for the earth to cope with.

Now, will they let 'us rot'? For certain they will, thats why soon will come the time of the small well hidden village that is totally self sustainable.

Funny, '500 million' is the number Billy Meier mentioned that the Plejaeren told him was the maximum number that the earth should be supporting. I wonder if 'they' read his material and value it more that we realize?

[Sol Invictus]

500 million, not a soul more is what they want, and they aim to get it too.

Now this figure was first bandied about in the early 1960's when the worlds population was creeping past its third billion. Now it looks like we are going to have to see when their 'breaking point' will be.

How does the Iron Mountain report square with that? Didn't that figure go as high as a third? Either way - scary stuff if it is true. To think that there are those who think like that.

Sol - I'm not saying that handguns are useless, but just like all tools, they are made for specific jobs. I chose to discuss the 4-10 because it is the shotgun I am most familiar with and had the most success with hunting birds. I think anyone making such an investment, both in money to acquire them and time to learn how to use them properly, should plan on having multiple guns and plenty of ammo for all. I am hoping some other experts on these matters will contribute for those that don't know.

More to come . . .

[Dantheman62]

I own a 4/10 shotgun and it folds in half and very useful, carry around anything bigger for a day and you wish you had another choice, that's where a handgun comes in, as far as bamboo in U.S., good luck. I know that winter is actually better for fishing and easier to hunt animals.Best thing overall for multiple uses is a roll of plastic, catching rain water and shelter and can be used over and over again.Surviving is fairly easy unless you were raised in the city!, one of the best posts here is the one about being out of shape, that's where only the strong will survive.And to PEER, hunting is necessary, not just for fun!, if people didn't hunt deer for example, thousands of them would just die from starvation in the winter, hunting keeps herds down to a number than can live on the food thats available.

SHELTER FROM NATURE

Native Americans of North America had housing that was designed to accommodate many people, and be assembled and dismantled easily. Thanks to them, we have numerous models to consider from a multitude of different environments. These shelters could do in pinch, and can be constructed from what you find around you. Granted, they won’t stand up to five hundred mile an hour winds, but barring that, they might be well considered for a winter layover in the wilderness. Many reading this might not be able to lug tents around, nor will most commercial tents of reasonable price be ideal for winter quartering. Native American housing will allow for thicker walls, the accommodation of many people, and a hearth fire within the enclosure.

Here is a kids’ site – no directions for building, but there are images of several different types of lodging.

http://www.native-languages.org/houses.htm

This next site is designed for people trying to put together boy scout activities. I am posting the teepee page, but there is so much more on this site. It has step by step, detailed directions for building teepees, rush mats, skin coverings, etc. It is a big site with much to explore, and note the books that the guy has posted – a lot of information on building shelter from natural surroundings.

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/shelter/tepee.htm

Here are some books:


Pocket Guide to Field Dressing Game by Ron Cordes, Steve Gilbert, and Gilbert Cordes

Field Dressing and Butchering Upland Birds, Waterfowl, and Wild Turkeys by Monte Burch

The Complete Book of Tanning Skins and Furs by James E. Churchill


Field Dressing and Butchering Big Game: Step-by-Step Instructions, from Field to Table by Monte Burch

Field Dressing and Butchering Deer: Step-by-Step Instructions, from Field to Table by Monte Burch

Field Dressing and Butchering Rabbits, Squirrels, and Other Small Game by Monte Burch

Preparing Fish & Wild Game: The Complete Photo Guide to Cleaning and Cooking Your Wild Harvest by Editors of creative Publishing

The Ultimate Guide to Skinning and Tanning: A Complete Guide to Working with Pelts, Fur, and Leather by Monte Burch

Hope some of that helps – and I welcome any additional advice/specifics on housing or skin preparation.

[Peer]

Hai Dan,
I agree hunting is nessecary but no more than you need, no more than you can eat.
The idea that it is nessecary because they otherwise would starve in winter is turning things upside down.
Why didn't they starve before mankind had firearms?
I've heard these story's before and it is nonsense.
Nature will rule itself and doesn't need the white man's infinite wisdom.

What's more important is:
When you have shot an animal, be it rabbit or elk do you know how to skin it?
What to do with the skin?
Will you use the liver and kidney's
What can we make out of the guts and the tendons or will we leave them there to rot and eventually contaminate a watersource or attract foxes, wolves, bears and wolverines?

Absolute nono's:
Aftershave, soap (perfumed or not).
No chewing-gum.
It will take about 3-4 days for your smell to become "natural" and by natural I mean non-chemical and you will not scare animals away by your strange "non-forest" smell.
Many soldiers died in Vietnam because the VC detected them by the smell of their aftershave and their chewing-gum and they themselves were packed in such a cloud of chemical smell that they wouldn't detect a pile of elephantdung if they stood in it.
No shaving cause a beard is good camouflage.
No talking.
By talking you don't hear the birdsounds changing.
Ever heard birdsounds changing when you were walking in the forest?
They see you and warn each other.
Every animal hears it too and detects you long before you detect the animal.
Listen to the birds and if they suddenly become silent be very attentive because it might mean there is another hunter nearby and you yourself are probably the prey.

[Dantheman62]

If I could ever make it back to northern Minnesota in the event of some disaster, there's more deer,rabbit,squirrels,and all kinds of birds than you know what to do with! The fishing is excellent and easy, and there is still land which is almost untouched by man. The only drawback of going to MN. is it gets extremely cold in the winter, like -20 degrees below zero for days on end. I know all this because I grew up there and also left there when I was 18(way to cold) and moved to Florida. But I am experienced in the wildlife and fishing there, after all it is the land of 10,000 lakes!(state motto) P.S. Squirrel tastes exactly like chicken! and If I knew I was going to a cold climate I wouldn't need the skins of animals because I'd already have coats, sweaters,gloves, and all needed items to stay warm so I don't think we would have to resort to extreme primitive means, unlike the indians and settlers of old had to. P.S.,P.S. I like you're quote about the queens english, funny!

Thanks for this thread! Great information from everyone.

I have a question though--->
For those of us here in the US on the East Coast who are living check to check, hand to mouth. When do we stop paying the bills and start using the little money we have on Survival Supplies, i.e dried meats, canned goods, water, and protection?

I have been taking a small piece of my grocery budget to buy more canned goods, but I do not have anyway of purchasing a 6 month supply.

Any suggestions is greatly appreciated.

[Dantheman62]

Originally Posted by kamchadon

Thanks for this thread! Great information from everyone.

I have a question though--->
For those of us here in the US on the East Coast who are living check to check, hand to mouth. When do we stop paying the bills and start using the little money we have on Survival Supplies, i.e dried meats, canned goods, water, and protection?

I have been taking a small piece of my grocery budget to buy more canned goods, but I do not have anyway of purchasing a 6 month supply.

Any suggestions is greatly appreciated.

Hey k, there is no real way of knowing when, just keep a very close eye on the news and such and if need be run to the store quickly. For now it sounds like you're doing the right thing, alittle at a time and don't forget dehydrated stuff too. I know if I have to I'll break into the store if need be,just to survive.

Thanks Dan!

I will keep doing it a little at a time. If I think of anything else that can benefit others who are on a tight budget, I will be sure to add to the thread/discussion.


Peace & Light
Kam

[Dantheman62]

I'm actually unemployed and just about broke so like I said, if I have to go to extremes I will, but growing up in minnesota has prepared me to pretty much survive on the land.

[Peer]

Originally Posted by Dantheman62

If I could ever make it back to northern Minnesota in the event of some disaster, there's more deer,rabbit,squirrels,and all kinds of birds than you know what to do with! The fishing is excellent and easy, and there is still land which is almost untouched by man. The only drawback of going to MN. is it gets extremely cold in the winter, like -20 degrees below zero for days on end. I know all this because I grew up there and also left there when I was 18(way to cold) and moved to Florida. But I am experienced in the wildlife and fishing there, after all it is the land of 10,000 lakes!(state motto) P.S. Squirrel tastes exactly like chicken! and If I knew I was going to a cold climate I wouldn't need the skins of animals because I'd already have coats, sweaters,gloves, and all needed items to stay warm so I don't think we would have to resort to extreme primitive means, unlike the indians and settlers of old had to. P.S.,P.S. I like you're quote about the queens english, funny!

Hai Dan,
I am sure you'll have the right equipment for you.
But what about if the problems outlast your gear?
What if children are born?
I don't suppose you'll go into the nearest shopping mall and get yourself 15 boxes of pampers and get back into the forest again.
If things become so bad that we have to rely on wildlife it is not going to be for a few weeks or a year.
It will be for generations then.

If you hear Naomi Wolfe stating that the administration of G.W.(W.W.worldwidewar)B. is preparing for a fascist policestate it will never be the same afterwards.
We here in Europe have seen what a war will do to a country.
When the Germans were finished with Rotterdam there was nothing left.
When the English and Americans were finished with Stuttgart there were only a few walls left standing.
And that was nothing compared to what is possible now.
If America gets involved in a civil war (not unlikely with a president who likes to see himself as a dictator) the chance of being thrown back into the middleages isn't unthinkable.
If another CIA-orchestrated attack like 9-11 should take place you will be confronted with martial law and it will probably be nuclear so the area involved will be impassible for the next century's.
Do wonder what the first brigade is doing on American soil right now.
I wonder if there will be elections in November.
I wonder if we will be able to make our planned trip to the USA in November.

And about the Queens English: You're the first one to mention it.

Peer has just raised a point that needs to be carefully considered by any who post here about hunting and other "how to" survivalist topics.

Whatever is coming down the pike - if anything - our dependence upon natural resources needs to be tempered by first appreciation, and secondly by the understanding that reliance upon nature for our survival may indeed be a multi-generational situation. Wise and efficient resource use should be the goal. After all, it is excess, greed, and carelessness that has brought us to this point in the first place. That is why in the present and the future, the camper's motto is so important: try to leave your site a better place than it was when you found it.

Peer has also asked "what if children are born?" I started this thread with the assumption that children will be around in these communities from the beginning - it is that circumstance that served as the catalyst for starting this thread . . . to exchange ideas that ensure the next generation's safety and survival.

Wise words Peer, and let's live by them, now, and in the times to come.

[Dantheman62]

Originally Posted by Peer

Hai Dan,
I am sure you'll have the right equipment for you.
But what about if the problems outlast your gear?
What if children are born?
I don't suppose you'll go into the nearest shopping mall and get yourself 15 boxes of pampers and get back into the forest again.
If things become so bad that we have to rely on wildlife it is not going to be for a few weeks or a year.
It will be for generations then.

If you hear Naomi Wolfe stating that the administration of G.W.(W.W.worldwidewar)B. is preparing for a fascist policestate it will never be the same afterwards.
We here in Europe have seen what a war will do to a country.
When the Germans were finished with Rotterdam there was nothing left.
When the English and Americans were finished with Stuttgart there were only a few walls left standing.
And that was nothing compared to what is possible now.
If America gets involved in a civil war (not unlikely with a president who likes to see himself as a dictator) the chance of being thrown back into the middleages isn't unthinkable.
If another CIA-orchestrated attack like 9-11 should take place you will be confronted with martial law and it will probably be nuclear so the area involved will be impassible for the next century's.
Do wonder what the first brigade is doing on American soil right now.
I wonder if there will be elections in November.
I wonder if we will be able to make our planned trip to the USA in November.

And about the Queens English: You're the first one to mention it.

Good point PEER!, I forgot about the little rugrats, I mean children LOL!, I'm single,46, and no kids so I wasn't thinking,(smoke another one Dan). I guess I'll have to skin the deer and tan the hides and wrap the little buggers up! Anyway, I like the idea of the old indian teepees, easy to make and very transportable. And having a big roll of construction plastic will be put to many uses like water catcher,shelter,wrapping meat, and for keeping things dry.

[Peer]

Teepee is a good thing 'cause you can burn a fire inside.
There is an Indian (sorry dear natives) way of preserving meat and that is wrapping it up in certain herbs and dry it.
It feels like leather but tastes good and you only need half of the amount you normally would consume. Alas I don't know exactly how it is done. (pemican)
Mayby somebody else knows?

I am so lucky to live in a small village where we have a brewery with its own source.
They used to provide water for the whole village untill the official watersupply took over but they would be able to provide again.
And of course they have their way to preserve the water by adding some yeast, hops and malt so surviving here will be not such a big problem.