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Old 10-06-2008, 02:17 PM   #76
EpiphaMe
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

We find it difficult to conceive of another system yet unlived, unexperienced. The Zeitgeist Addendum addresses most all your questions above. The transition will be turbulent or in baby steps, the ones outlined in the 2nd half which we could all be doing now.

The fractional monetary system works on the premise of debt and the mindset of limited resources. Creativity is unmanifest, the avenue of expression restricted when one is searching for its next pc of bread.

There is abundance of (free) energy, Abundance, not a lack (of which most of the dollar pays for, this lack).... there are millions needing primary assistance, the basics.

Transition is certain, the pains of which are being expressed. I feel your hearts.
We do next the right thing before us. It cannot be a rinse and repeat, thanks Zynox.
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Old 10-06-2008, 02:58 PM   #77
Xhaosis
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

If the free world as we know it collapses.. Big reach here, with the collapse of Capitalism, you would have a moment of anarchy.... Then either a new and improved form of a system, or a stigmatic arrogance of change that would be declared as better and more forthright for the people it controls. Taking that into consideration chances are this mechanism is functional at this moment. Also take heed in the degree and precision of this financial change. The speed of this meltdown is astonishing. Its not accidental it is a well disposed plan. The question remains who or what has the power over the leaders of men to this degree? Only the people. When everything settles we will realize it is not what we have changed around us, it is what we have changed in our perception. The free market is a milestone to everything we hold up on pedestals the internet, cell phones, grocery stores food, school flat tv's, and for this to collapse and fail, Changes the way history is written. It seem their is a lack of substance, never before has it been so cold, every one feels alone, and scared. Well not all of us. Helpless without jobs, loss of homes, despair. Their is no need to predict or pray for UFO's to come save us, we must save ourselves and adapt to this brave new World, yet i respect and am entertained by the notion of a Alien species coming to save and fix our capital, that we revolve around and strive to aquire. In essense the system lack jobs and the credit problem already seems pretty darn damaged as it is. In other words our economy is in the ICU.

PEACE
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:19 PM   #78
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

From todays (Oct 6, 2008) London Telegraph
Quote – We face extreme danger…we risk a disintegration of global finance within days.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...the-abyss.html

Well, well…….
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Old 10-07-2008, 04:26 AM   #79
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

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Originally Posted by historycircus View Post
If I found a planet full of monkeys being manipulated into killing each other by some other alien like myself, and wanted to do something about it, I'd take the fight to the source - not manipulate them even further.

I would not pick people who have isolated themselves and are considered crazy by the majority to deliver my offer of joining the team - you know what I mean? I'd put the shields up, and park on the lawn of the capital building, turn on the external speakers, and start laying it out.

The subterfuge that many posit is pointless, and in honor of Nimoy, illogical.

Zynox, you make me think, and for that I love you.
Yes, you and I feel aligned, as I too would want to help in a transparent way with honest and loving disclosure. However, we don't fully understand:

Our bodies
Our minds
Our souls

So, seems to me, that we don't have the playbook or the user manual, perhaps there are some physical/metaphysical rules that prevent, and then faced with a choice to abandon or use methods open, the choice of astral energies is to pick evils of lessers, we do it down here all the time.

What has always confounded me is the entire ET/Ultrdimensional paradigm, is:

Why would 'constructive' forces work only with world governments, in secret, or stay in hands-off observation mode when the entire situation here is a mess? I sense and feel, but do not know, that there are forces beyond us, and would assume there is some balance. I haven't yet grokked both sides only working with the governments and a few special / enlightened / mental / mutant individuals. There are now billions of humans here, and if extensive contact was happening it seems it couldn't be contained.

Then again, most folks don't seem interested in chem-trails ...

I feel all of this is on-topic, because if there is an 'external' card in play, then we need to have it integrated in discussions of solutions.

Love reflected brother, because you are, my brother!
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Old 10-07-2008, 04:42 AM   #80
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

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If the free world as we know it collapses.. Big reach here, with the collapse of Capitalism, you would have a moment of anarchy....

In other words our economy is in the ICU.
I am rooting for anarchy, and this results in much hostility in some folks when I bring it up. As the 'system' protects itself, I am sure I'm on the million plus watch list. Lysander Spooner so long ago elucidated the entire racket of governments, voting for whom would coerce whom ...

When we were children, did we need established structures of control to run a lemonaid stand, to play pickup baseball, to ride bikes and explore the world? If not, then do we need them to build roads, put out fires, establish radiant communities or develop artistic and technological wonders? Where would the imagination and creativity of the human spirit and ingenuity lead if allowed to blossom?

Have we been massively conditioned to reject and/or fear anarchy as a reasonable alternative to 'isms'? Seems capitalism, communism, totalitarianism, socialism and such are equally as tyrannical as republican, whig and democratic parties are shades of the same.

Echelon and watch list bots, I say "Let's open up the game to Anarchism. Does the 'ism' addition make it palatable and legitimate? I will not riot, I will not harm, I will not steal, I will behave according to internal ethics, so how about removing the pesky external morality, it crimps my sovereignty."

~ If I'm disappeared, please write and send snackies ~

~ namaste and love my sisters and brothers ~
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:04 AM   #81
Jack MF Union
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Cool Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

Check out my GW Bush track, i manipulated him to finally tell the truth about what he's been doing!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FB6e03rXyBI
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Old 10-08-2008, 01:00 AM   #82
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

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I am rooting for anarchy,
I tend to agree. For some who may read that statement, and infer that those are only the words of an anti-patriot, such a proposition would be uncomfortable. That would be the pre-programmed response typical of the inheritor of centuries of external conditioning for that very purpose.

But, if one is predisposed toward the Lockean persuasion - that humankind is inherently good in a state of nature - a little anarchy might just be the needed prescription for a very sick world. In such a state, evil either rules completely, or is ostracized to the margins of society - either way would be more preferred by me, instead of the hazy, murky, confused world where all claim to be good, but publicly celebrate evil (as relative as those two terms are).

Best,

Historycircus

Last edited by historycircus; 10-11-2008 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 10-08-2008, 01:41 AM   #83
gwynned
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

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I am rooting for anarchy
You may get your wish, but as they say, be careful what you wish for. Anarchy will more likely look like Road Warrior than the Summer of Love.
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Old 10-08-2008, 02:00 AM   #84
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You may get your wish, but as they say, be careful what you wish for. Anarchy will more likely look like Road Warrior than the Summer of Love.
I'll go one further and say it WILL look like Road Warrior - with complete collapse of the system, and billions of human beings who will fall back on what they have been programmed to do (follow the leader), and leaders who have already proven that they are willing to do whatever to whoever to make sure their Bentlys get properly waxed, the future will be a violent, unpleasant place for those stuck in the orbit of them all.

But it won't be like that everywhere. There will be pockets that survive where new forms of economy (a term implied to include production, exchage, consumption, distribution, regimes of value, etc. - not the simplistic notion of buying and selling) rise and thrive. Let me take this opportunity to sort of steer this thread back to its original intent: to discuss the possible ways in which we - as members of one of these safe/radiant zones - can create a new economy (and all that that term implies), and do so in a fashion, if possible, that avoids the great plague of all historical economic forms - war.

Thoughts? How do we fairly, in a community, produce, exchange, consume, distribute labor, etc. in the most efficient way? Is there a way to do so and avoid the heirarchical and exploitative monstrosities that have resulted?

Some questions to consider, and I welcome all perspectives.
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Old 10-08-2008, 04:39 AM   #85
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

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Anarchy will more likely look like Road Warrior than the Summer of Love.
Most respectfully, I inquire:

Upon what proofs and evidence do you base the foundation of the allegation that Anarchy will more likely look like _________________?

Seriously, we in our lifetimes have not, to my knowledge, been exposed to anything that comes close to clean and unfettered anarchy ...

If anyone wants to say, well what about LA in the Rodney King riots, or New Orleans after Katrina, I'd flatly state that each had orchestrated or antagonistic co-intel-pro elements and such, so those sorts of examples don't qualify as potential peeks at anarchy ... why do we carry these fear filled memes of what we would behave like if we were treated as sovereign humans?

Someone please, respond to how we were relatively sane as children without hyper-control paradigms ...

Paraphrasing Ice-T, before he became a TeeVee 'star' - "Damn, shoulda killed me last year" (what happened Echelon, I'm still here, not disappeared, is it ok to discuss anarchy now, the behavior of 'governments'?)

~ love and namaste, my sisters and brothers ~
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Old 10-08-2008, 04:49 AM   #86
Zynox
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

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How do we fairly, in a community, produce, exchange, consume, distribute labor, etc. in the most efficient way? Is there a way to do so and avoid the heirarchical and exploitative monstrosities that have resulted?
Let us envision this, and support a stated goal of Avalon.

I have started some community websites and begun networking with folks contemplating the physical and spiritual aspects of how to manage, not manhandle, community make-up.

The conundrum always comes back to how to keep peace and sovereignty in parallel. We are not there yet, and have not yet come close, beyond setting the framework of the QUESTIONS:

1) How do we develop a flat / horizontal / rhizome network of members in a community and provide leadership and guidance without authority?

2) How do we prevent rainbows from becoming drainblows?

3) How do we reflect the change we want within, in response to dissonant and aggressive members?

4) What do we do when the psychopath (organic portal, demon, brute) comes to town?

Huge Questions, requiring CREATIVE new-mind / heart-view answers ....

Shall we take this discussion here, as our friend, HistoryCircus, has suggested?

~ love and namaste sisters and brothers ~
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Old 10-08-2008, 05:50 AM   #87
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The idea of sovereignty ( to be self governing ) includes not being controlled by outside forces... The word "controlled" is at hand to contemplate. To be self governing is already in our "world" is it not? To be controlled then, might be the subjective "ism" of cognitive struggle. "Affected" is more adequate, should the "system" fall into chaos, anarchy (no rulers) is then a 'given' except we would all be looking over our shoulders, to be sure, to fend off residuals of the existing paradigm.... There can be no transition to without the former presence of mind...

which leads to "how can we create a new economy"?.... how to manage the affairs of being alive!.... w/thrift/frugality/mgmt of resources.... but as above stated... w/fairness <<< there ya go! This mindset is fruited by the former presence of mind... what do I get and have you earned your part?... what is fair?

Each being has their basic needs met FIRST, and that's a task in itself> starting with self.....until that is a reality, the rest will not be realized but I expect we would marvel w/the creative fruition of minds set free of want.

Isn't it interesting that we talk about how we might extend to others any surplus... has anyone here ever grown a garden??? ... and had surplus...??? You are happy to give away (be rid of actually) ...

questions 1 - 4 posted above... I would asnwer that you act from a grounded, centered space. Are you struggling w/the possibility of having to kill someone? That is what I sense from your questions. And we've all considered these possibilities considering the global situation.

To know thyself only includes things encountered... this is wisdom.. for I cannot know my capacity until ....

I'm very tired, so pardon me, please fill in the blanks. May love reign over you!!!!!
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:23 PM   #88
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Exellent post Z and EpiphaMe.

Notions of "fairness" and equity will be the filters through which we share ideas and engage in economic activity. It is what we know/been programmed to believe as truth. Some may be able to operate without those filters, but most will be forced to walk that fine line between the old paradigm and the new - a thought I haven't really considered EpiphaMe, and for that I thank you.

Communites of only a few families and individuals might be so preoccupied by subsistence, especially at the outset of whatever events might necessitate such a radical shift in economic behavior, that such filters of concern will be moot. As an optomist (despite allegations on other threads accusing me of being a peddaler of doom), I think that no matter what comes, the human race will survive and prosper. Eventually these smaller communities will reach out and find each other, and despite the vulgar blight our modern cities have become, and collectivization will naturally happen. Specialization in labor and mass production need not be negative, for if done with a conscious respect for both the environment and the producers, it leads to efficient production and lesiure time - the latter being essetial to the building of culture. After all, a future of all work and no play will breed resentment. I'm not suggesting bread and circuses for control (the current paradigm), I'm suggesting that the artists and poets of the future will need a little down time to practice their crafts. Chances are, when a few hundred people get together, a division and specialization of labor will allow for efficient resource management and foster individual sovereignty.

But what do we do when one chooses to excercise personal sovereignty in such a way as to harm members of the group (rape, robbery, murder, etc.)? Successful economic production in a free society will undoubtedly, over time, give individuals a lot more time to find ways to exercise free will, and we cannot assume that everyone, at all times, will act in a way that is neutral or beneficial to society. To have poets, one must brace for rapists. What does that say about our fundamental nature as a species? Does that mean that becuase some at the top of the social pyramid have hijacked our mechanisms of economy, crime and punishment, politics, and culture, that the whole or parts of our system are irrelevent and should be abandoned? If society reemerges with the collective experiences of collapse, and consciously rebuilds with a new and more enlightened mindset, could we not rinse, if not repeat?
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:09 PM   #89
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As I have sat and watched the crash of the global markets over the last few days, I have come to a couple conlusions that I would love to get some responses to.

First, the market system will not survive this global collapse. The only way to preserve any semblence of the system is extreme government intervention, on a global scale. The global economic system that will emerge from the crisis will not be market capitalism. Make no mistake, the PTB will claim, eventually, that they have preserved it, but the intervention that is now taking place will render Adam Smith's "invisible hand" intangible as well. I think, barring global cataclysm, we are well on our way to a global socialism - a circumstance that immediately puts China and Russia definatively at the top of the global economic food chain. My question to you all: are we watching the vindication of Karl Marx in the Western world?

Secondly, I do not believe that the current global economic crisis is engineered - a thought which I know is anathema to many on this forum.

Hear me out.

The market system - Capitalism - has been the most effective tool that the PTB have had. We are exploited, but we call it freedom. As mentioned earlier in this thread, we are taught, from very early on, that participating in the market system is an act of freedom. But your participatory freedom is directly proportional to your income in this society. For instance, a poor man and a rich man are both cited for driving drunk - for both it is the second offense, and the incidents are six months apart. The man who can afford to retain a private-practice lawyer will ultimately not see the inside of a cell, while the poor man, in almost all states in the union will. No one making less than fifty thousand a year could even entertain running for the Congress or the Presidency. One's income determines where you live, what you eat, what or if you drive, how you spend your leisure time, where you get educated and if you get to go to college, and it determines your access to quality health care. Yet, we are told we are free. And when someone turns their back on the system, for spiritual or ideological reasons, they become outcasts - percieved as wierd at best, seditionists and treasonous at worst.

The point of the paragraph above is to point out that the PTB already has the greatest system of control ever devised - a system of control we celebrate. The current financial crisis IS a crisis for them - for the people are beginning to wake up and get grumpy. The rumblings of discontent with the Western system grow louder with every ring of the closing bell on Wall Street, and with every trip to the grocery store. Direct control is expensive and messy - you have to herd everyone into central locations, moniter, chip, discipline, etc. It is difficult to run a prison when the prisoners know they are in prison - there is the endless task of discipline and preventing escape, and nothing is foolproof; sometimes prison riots and escapes happen. It is easier to run a prison in which nobody identifies their experiences as that of an inmate. That is why I don't believe that the current financial crisis has been engineered - What do you all think?
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:46 PM   #90
gwynned
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

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Originally Posted by historycircus View Post
As I have sat and watched the crash of the global markets over the last few days, I have come to a couple conlusions that I would love to get some responses to.

First, the market system will not survive this global collapse. The only way to preserve any semblence of the system is extreme government intervention, on a global scale. The global economic system that will emerge from the crisis will not be market capitalism. Make no mistake, the PTB will claim, eventually, that they have preserved it, but the intervention that is now taking place will render Adam Smith's "invisible hand" intangible as well. I think, barring global cataclysm, we are well on our way to a global socialism - a circumstance that immediately puts China and Russia definatively at the top of the global economic food chain. My question to you all: are we watching the vindication of Karl Marx in the Western world?

Secondly, I do not believe that the current global economic crisis is engineered - a thought which I know is anathema to many on this forum.
Historycircus,

We meet again! We are watching the vindication of Karl Marx, though not in the way you suggest. He wrote much more about capitalism than socialism, which was only a glimmer in his eye way back then. He delineated the internal contradictions of the system and predicted that it would one day collapse. In that sense, I agree with you that this is not an engineered collapse. This is a controlled demolition, except that they can only control the demolition, they can't keep the building up.

Secondly, Russia and China are not really good examples. They have some aspects of state controlled 'socialism,' but the people are not really in control. That aside, I think the better example is Venezuela. Chavez has been able to parlay his oil revenues to institute some breakthrough redistribution of the wealth. He is always under attack, of course, but has gained some allies in Latin America like Morales.
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Old 10-10-2008, 07:55 PM   #91
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Welcome back G. You will have to accept my apology, however, for I have not had time to check out those films you suggested. They are on my movie to-do list.

Marx has always recieved his fair share of criticism for his ability to slice and dice the veggies, but never produce a tasteful salad. Neo-Marxists tear him down at the other end of his critique - they say he too easily dismissed pre-capitalist societies as a source for understanding how Capitalism originated in the first place, and thus some of his fundamental assumptions of how the mechanisms of Capitalism work are also flawed. And, there is the notion to consider, that Marx envisioned collapse as a conscious push from the bottom of the Capitalist pyramid, not the result of bungling and rot at the top. His bourgeois, our middle class, is upset about and resisting collapse, instead of initiating it through a unified movement.

I think the ruling class and the ruled have become so dependent upon the market system, the former for control, the latter for survival, that it is hard for me to see engineered collapse as a desireable scenario initiated by either.
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Old 10-10-2008, 09:29 PM   #92
gwynned
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I think the ruling class and the ruled have become so dependent upon the market system, the former for control, the latter for survival, that it is hard for me to see engineered collapse as a desireable scenario initiated by either.
You make some excellent points. Of course your perspective above is based primarily on western industrialized models and not, let's say, Latin America or India, where the ruled are not afraid to take matters in their own hands, like in Cocachamba, Bolivia where they threw out Bechtel or in India, where a mob lynched a CEO that had laid them all off. The sides in those cases were very clear to the people, but have been obscured here in the US. That may change as more and more people become homeless and catch on to what is happening to them and why.
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Old 10-10-2008, 09:52 PM   #93
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i'm really very surprised at this conversation. the zionist rothchild gang created marx and communism. they're doing what has to be done to initiate north american union, one world currency,new world order,gaing global domination. funny,israel is probably the only country on the planet faring well(and our tax dollars finance that as well,more than 25 billion a year). maybe, soon the entire planet will bowing to them.
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:28 PM   #94
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

A real American hero, Ellen Miller, has real solutions regarding accountability by our government and perhaps great ideas for any 'new government' that may come to be.

October 'Wired Magazine' has a featured article highlighting the work of Ellen Miller. Never hear of her? Read on.

Ellen Miller, founder of the Sunlight Foundation has a goal...to tap some of the internets best-known thinkers in order to make Washington as user friendly as Google. She says, "Washington Politicians like the firewall they have erected. They will have to be dragged into the 21st century".

Here are some of her current projects with links and explanations of what they do:

Earmarkwatch.org- When politicians makes sausage, they don't skimp on the pork. More than 500 volunteers have pored through federal spending bills to created this database of KICKBACKS and BOONDOGGLES.

OpenCongress.org-This site summarizes bills in EVERYDAY language and monitors related news and blog coverage. Users can also follow a legislator's voting record AND submit comments on proposed laws.

Punch Clock Map-The next best thing to putting a bell on your senator, this Google map tracks the schedules of participating members of Congress. While only 9 of 535 members of Congress have agreed to this to date, now that you know about it, write some letters or editorials and pressure ALL of them to be accountable with their time and activities.

Here are a few things she is proposing:

Crowdsourced Legislation: Why should elected officials be the only ones who get to haggle over legislation? Drafts of Bills should be uploaded to wikis, where anyone could edit them before they get debated by the House or Senate.

One-Click Government-Sure, you can find Federal documents online, but good luck making any sense of them. Her suggestion: Build mashups that seamlessly link politicians, donor, and legislation to give a COMPLETE picture of how government works and WHO is doing what and when.

Constant Real-Time Video: Encourage phonecam-weilding citizens to attend government meetings and post the proceedings on You Tube. They've been keeping track and videotaping American citizens for years. Isn't it time we had the same privileges?
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:32 PM   #95
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Ophiuchus,

The question that I am asking myself is this: if a NWO/Illuminatti organization exists, and is crashing everything for the purpose of control, why? They already own everything and control everything. The current collapse only serves to loosen their control. If Zionists engineered the collapse, why? Don't they already control everything? Properly running Capitalism leads to ultimate control, its collapse breeds discontent and disobediance. The current crisis, as a manufactured phenomenon, makes no sense from the "eye's" point of view.

Marx may have been a puppet, but he was a brilliant puppet who clearly understood many of the nacient problems of industrial Capitalism.

G.,

The Latin American and Indian models are the very models that captivate the Neo-Marxists - they are, in many respects, still undergoing the process of "articulation," the process by which market forces chip away at an existing exchange/tribal system. Despite the propaganda we get here in the U.S. and in Western Europe, Latin America, in many ways, has not yet reached such pervasive dependency, and in that respect retain a form of freedom that for us, died a long time ago.
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Old 10-10-2008, 11:12 PM   #96
mel
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

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Well said, though I note few responses to your succint analysis. The last time we were so close to collapse, FDR stepped in, created some safety nets for the people and got the US involved in a war, which is what really got the economy back up and running - albeit after it killed about 50 million people. Prior to all that, revolution was in the air, their were labor strikes, and an awakened and angry public. FDR convinced the world that capitalism could be fixed. I hope now, we can at least see that a system based on profit is inherently unsustainable and brutal, one which cannot and should not be 'fixed.'
Definately, if we do what we have always done, we get what we have always gotten, evolution is about breaking out of that unacceptable *****, PEACE.
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:08 AM   #97
Rocky_Shorz
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

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And when someone turns their back on the system, for spiritual or ideological reasons, they become outcasts - perceived as weird at best, seditionists and treasonous at worst.

The point of the paragraph above is to point out that the PTB already has the greatest system of control ever devised - a system of control we celebrate. The current financial crisis IS a crisis for them - for the people are beginning to wake up and get grumpy. The rumblings of discontent with the Western system grow louder with every ring of the closing bell on Wall Street, and with every trip to the grocery store. Direct control is expensive and messy - you have to herd everyone into central locations, monitor, chip, discipline, etc. It is difficult to run a prison when the prisoners know they are in prison - there is the endless task of discipline and preventing escape, and nothing is foolproof; sometimes prison riots and escapes happen. It is easier to run a prison in which nobody identifies their experiences as that of an inmate. That is why I don't believe that the current financial crisis has been engineered - What do you all think?
For a clown, I think you are spot on...

Every person that is pulling money from the system is saying "no confidence"

It has snowballed so many who have no idea what is going on are pulling out too.

did anyone smile seeing oil close at $77.7...

First the banks, then the oil companies will be brought into public control...
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Old 10-11-2008, 03:03 PM   #98
gwynned
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

Quote:
Originally Posted by historycircus View Post
Ophiuchus,

G.,

The Latin American and Indian models are the very models that captivate the Neo-Marxists - they are, in many respects, still undergoing the process of "articulation," the process by which market forces chip away at an existing exchange/tribal system. Despite the propaganda we get here in the U.S. and in Western Europe, Latin America, in many ways, has not yet reached such pervasive dependency, and in that respect retain a form of freedom that for us, died a long time ago.

HC,

I thought I'd look into what is actually happening in Venezuela to see how much they are impacted by the 'world wide' economic crisis. In doing so, I stumbled upon an article which outlined, I think quite well, the difference between capitalist and socialist intervention in the economy. I've provided the link below but would summarize it as follows. When the capitalists intervene, the purpose is to protect the interests of the wealthy and their institutions to the detriment of the people, i.e., we the people will be paying off the 700B debt and thereby supporting the various banking institutions. When socialist governments intervene, the purpose is to take a profitable business and redistribute the wealth to the people, as is the case when Chavez nationalized the Venezuelan oil companies and used the money to institute universal health care and implement a literacy program.

In addition to your point that the people of Latin America have been less integrated into the (US based) capitalist system, I would add that there has been a conscious and cooperative movement among the leftist Latin American governments to barter among themselves and create a regional bank, thereby further disengaging themselves from the web of the IMF and the World Bank.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3846

As an aside, I really appreciate your commentary, which is significantly more nuanced than the "Illuminati did it" commentary that tries to pass for reasoned analysis.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3846
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Old 10-11-2008, 03:54 PM   #99
doodah
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

The thing I keep remembering about this global collapse, is that it is the collapse of nothing. Nothing. Cyber wealth. Digits. Ones and zeroes on computers. We exchange that Nothing for real stuff like food and cars. We pay back our credit card Nothing with pieces of paper that we "earn" at our jobs, or maybe we pay back the Nothing with more Nothing (direct deposit into our banks). It's quite funny if you step outside of it a little bit.

Some communities are creating their own paper money. And why not? Paper money used to be a promise to pay in gold or silver. You could take paper money to the bank and demand real physical metal in return. Then they took away the gold and silver. Now it's a promise to pay in what? Nothing. So the collapse of this system is really funny because nobody is really losing anything except all their Nothing.

How bizarre!

If we go to a grocery store and don't have any more Nothing left in our bank account or on our credit card, we can't get food. That is we don't have any Nothing to exchange for Something. This whole system has been a mass hypnosis, a mass illusion. Let it fall and none too soon.
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Old 10-11-2008, 04:07 PM   #100
doodah
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

Here's a thought: Why don't we just throw away all that Nothing and see what's really real, or at least physical?

We'd be back to a barter system, where things have real value, which I personally prefer.
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