Cliff High view on Bill Ryans accusations

[sjkted]

Originally Posted by Anchor

Correct which is why the user in question ended up being banned, and messages and threads concerned were deleted. I am afraid I decided to delete your two messages above the quoted post that that quoted the deleted messages. I hope you dont mind overly much - though thanks for your efforts and contribution

Recursive moderation is like pushing water up a hill with a rake - but sometimes it is worth it.

A..

I don't mind. I realize we're also really putting the moderators to the test here. IMO The content from the banned user was really out of the blue and doesn't really contribute to the core of this thread.

--sjkted

[Carol]

I would like to remind everyone here that Kerry does not believe in banning and is for total transparency. The exceptions being posting porn and threatening another member which were instant bans. For the past year no one was banned until recently. Revealing the truth was what this forum was based on. Bill was not threatened and appeared not to have made a complaint. So why the ban? Francie shared an email, not a PM. If it were a PM on this forum... then a ban is appropriate. However, there is a big difference with this particular situation because she was exposing the truth about an unsolicited email. Bill took a risk but did not have her prior agreement for confidentiality. Bill is also quite capable of standing up for himself. I have both watched and read where Bill attacked people I respect, even resorting to calling them names and certainly don't expect to see him banned. I would hope that rather then becoming entrenched in an unfair ban, consideration is given in the broadest perspective here as to the intention of what Bill and Kerry wanted when setting up this forum.

The following is a true story. There was a member of a spiritual zendo residence that made others uncomfortable. The others conspired to get rid of this member and the member became so uncomfortable that he left willingly. However, the spiritual leader went to the member who left and asked him to return. The member said no, so the spiritual leader told him he would even pay him to return which he then did. The moral of the story was that this member who others didn't like was a trigger for their egos and also an opportunity for them to work through their own unresolved ego issues. Francie did NOT do anything wrong but it seems others think she did. Yet even if she had.. it still is not worth a full out permanent ban. Why so harsh?

[Seashore]

Originally Posted by truth and integrity

Bill forwarded to francie a private e-mail sent by Cliff. As he asked francie not to post it...

If this is what happened, it is clear to me that francie should not have been banned.

Bill Ryan had no justification to ask francie not to post an email from Clif regarding the subject matter in question.

Clif and Bill Ryan are public figures making statements about the state of the planet.

This is a forum for discussing public issues that are matters of life and death.

In my opinion, the moderators have made a mistake here.

[Dood]

I am curious as to why the staff is ignoring Carol's posts on this subject of Francie being banned.
As many know that Carol was around here for a long time.
Longer then most and she has seen and heard many things here.

As I stated before Carol and I did not see Eye to Eye on some issues but we always worked it out and never treated each other with disrespect.
However here with this ISSUE (and it is a valid ISSUE) I have to fully agree with what Carol is saying.
She knows full well what the T&Cs are here.
And the fact that no T&Cs were broken. I have yet to see one staff member point to chapter and verse in regards to Francie Jones.

Making up new rules on the fly hurts credibility and integrity.

All of this could have been avoided IF the person that sent the emails asked Francie to AGREE to not share them.
Like I pointed out before just saying it within a email does not give 'protection'.
Francie deserves the choice to agree or not.
If Francie would have wrote back as to "Yes, I agree to keeping this private..." and so forth then there is something to go on.

Otherwise there is nothing.
Also the permanent Ban is a bit harsh.
I have seen far worst.
For example the deletion of other people's Whistle Blower Sub Forums.
(A little over a year ago)
Whistle Blowers left because of this...Two in particular that I have gotten to know.
That happened here and the vBulletin Logs proved WHO did it but, that person was not punished or anything.
These were what are called 'Hard Deletes'. Meaning they cannot be recovered.
You have go through and extra step in order to Hard Delete other wise it is a 'Soft Delete' and can be recovered.
Others were blamed for it and the Forum Logs do not lie...
The original Admin (Sean..who by the way set this ALL up on his dime in the beginning) and the 2nd 'Original Admin (Colin) both read those logs.
They know the person that did it but, that person was let off the hook.
I am purposely keeping the name of the person that did these hard deletes out of respect to the forum.
However, this person is very well known...

So I will ask again as to why is Carol being ignored?
Her points are valid and deserve attention.
Many may have not 'liked' Carol but, many members did like and appreciate her also.
She has worked very hard for this forum....
Most of you members have no idea how much time Carol put in here along with a few of the other Early original Moderators.
(I am not forgetting them....however they know that I always appreciated their hard work too)

To moderate is not about any kind of power. It is about responsibility.
It is about being above the fray and keeping your integrity intact.
It is not easy and mistakes happen. Admitting to those mistakes is what shows character and integrity.
We all make mistakes. I know I do and when I have to admit to the mistakes I have made it is not a comfortable feeling at all but, a rewarding one over all.

I truly mean no disrespect to anyone here or anyone on the Staff but, I have to in good conscious say what I believe in.
I strongly suggest to reconsider what has transpired here and do the 'Correct Thing'.Allow Francie Jones back on line here!

Thank you for your time!

[Carol]

I appreciate your post on this Dood. What saddens me greatly is also looking at other long-time members who were recently banned, francie is just one of several. Whatever happened to the concept of a time-out? These were valuable members who have contributed a lot since the forum came into existence and it just is heart-breaking to see a pattern of complete censorship for these long-time contributing members going on in this forum. Were these permanent bans approved of by Kerry or Bill ~ which mods had done in the past?

[Seashore]

Originally Posted by Carol

I appreciate your post on this Dood. What saddens me greatly is also looking at other long-time members who were recently banned, francie is just one of several. Whatever happened to the concept of a time-out? These were valuable members who have contributed a lot since the forum came into existence and it just is heart-breaking to see a pattern of complete censorship for these long-time contributing members going on in this forum. Were these permanent bans approved of by Kerry or Bill ~ which had done in the past?

Should there be a separate thread on this topic? Or is there already a thread on this topic?

[Carol]

Originally Posted by Seashore

Should there be a separate thread on this topic? Or is there already a thread on this topic?

No. The ones controlling the reigns know what is going on and it doesn't do any good to push as it only entrenches a particular point of view. I know in my heart what is happening is not right, yet this is what is. I've already expressed how I felt and am finished with this topic.

[Seashore]

Originally Posted by Carol

No. The ones controlling the reigns know what is going on and it doesn't do any good to push as it only entrenches a particular point of view. I know in my heart what is happening is not right, yet this is what is. I've already expressed how I felt and am finished with this topic.

Thanks, Carol.

I feel that we have a festering wound here and we'd better tend to it.

[clarkkent]

i agree , if you guys want to talk in depth about forum rules and banning a seperate thread would work nicely, im all for it and against the recent ban.

but i would like to see the cliff high /bill , "whistleblowers' issue get back on track, if only so if bill reads he can see how dissapointing his response was and how just about everyone agrees cliff made valid points that he evaded and stooped to name calling. pretty uncharactistic of bill and a bummer to see ..

[Seashore]

Originally Posted by clarkkent

i agree , if you guys want to talk in depth about forum rules and banning a seperate thread would work nicely, im all for it and against the recent ban.

I took it upon myself to do this. Here's the link:

http://projectavalon.net/forum/showt...576#post213576

[Sarahmay]

What I saw was this: Bill sent Francie a private email and asked her not to post the content...she did anyway, to make her point. I would expect to be banned for this. It is his forum, and he shouldn't have to deal with that.

[sjkted]

Originally Posted by Sarahmay

What I saw was this: Bill sent Francie a private email and asked her not to post the content...she did anyway, to make her point. I would expect to be banned for this. It is his forum, and he shouldn't have to deal with that.

How about this? If Bill and Kerry want the support of truth seekers, they shouldn't censor the whistleblowers.

--sjkted

[sjkted]

http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/0...melot-exposed/

I know Bill has semi-responded to this with his letter to Jeff Rense, but consider this issue of how Bill Ryan is not responding to Cliff's accusation and continues to give praise to how wonderful Deagle is in his latest "interview".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic70cVN5IdQ

Listen to Bill's description of whistleblower testimony. He's not discerning and searching for the truth -- he's just weaving together a bunch of stories into a semi-coherent picture with an installed viewpoint. This is beginning to look no different than how the bible was created.

Folks, there is something VERY wrong here and I think we may be getting a little closer to it here.

--sjkted

[YinYangMind]

Originally Posted by Carol

I appreciate your post on this Dood. What saddens me greatly is also looking at other long-time members who were recently banned, francie is just one of several. Whatever happened to the concept of a time-out? These were valuable members who have contributed a lot since the forum came into existence and it just is heart-breaking to see a pattern of complete censorship for these long-time contributing members going on in this forum. Were these permanent bans approved of by Kerry or Bill ~ which had done in the past?

Carol, I agree with your observation. It's seems to be developing into a difficult situation where niether the mod's or Bill & Kerry appear interested in getting to the truth especially since there has been a deafening silience from B&K with only the mod's stating policy and protocol with little convincing substance. I keep coming back to see where the discussion is headed hopeful that Bill will respond/reply...to no avail. I too am getting tired of the obfuscation and may just not bother any further.

BTW, got your message on my profile, thanks! I've tried to find a way to respond/reply even leaving a message on yours but can't find anyway to do so. I did visit your web site and signed up for your email subscription (KnowledgeTreks.com).

All the best & Happy New Year!

YinYangMind

[cantaloupe]

I have always followed francie's posts, and have come away with the impression that she cares about the truth. I have noted and shared a certain disillusionment with what's happening at PC and think that that is a healthy thing when we are aware that so much disinfo is floating around out there or coming directly at us. Clark's right, Bill didn't answer the substance of Cliff's criticism.
I think that if one agrees to keep something private, they should do so.
If no such agreement is made, no one is bound to do anything.
I think the mods should reconsider their decision.
This site will be poorer without franciejones and others like her.
Happy New Year to All
Cantaloupe

[sjkted]

Camelot is an interface to something higher like any organization. For example, a person joins a church as an interface to connecting with God. The news stations are purported to be an interface to the reality of what's happening here.

Most of us are here for both of these reasons. We want to know our purpose in the world and who we are and to connect with the divine. Many of us have been disillusioned by religion due to the large amount of lies and the divisive nature of religion. Any semi-intelligent person has already discovered that if you're looking for the real story, the mainstream media is the last place to look.

There is a timing issue here. An outside force is on the march to implement world government. There are many reasons why they want and need to do this. One main reason is that our entire world system from the economy to the environment to food production is completely unsustainable. All of these systems are coming down. We all know this. In order for the outside force to maintain its power, it must control each step of the destruction followed by each step of the rebuilding. Most of us know where world government is leading us. It's not pretty. There are no more classes of people who will benefit from it other than the few families at the top. For everyone else, it will be nothing but the destruction of beauty and the emergence of a new dark age.

The people here are international, intelligent, and spiritually developed. If there's any real opposition to TPTB and world government, it's us right here folks. We're the real threat to them. They know how to handle armed rebellion and major conflicts, but they know there is no countermeasure to a large number of awake people who have pledged change by the peaceful way of waking up the world.

Some people say us groundcrew people are about 1 in 100 in the developed world. If this number is even remotely accurate, then there's way too many of us to kill, silence or otherwise thwart in such a short time and we are way too widespread geographically to deal with any way other than online.

So, what's left? Surely the outside force won't just let us be here and attempt to wake up the world. The only thing they can do is attempt to capture and misdirect our energy towards things that don't matter and are utterly pointless. If they were going to misdirect our attention, what would they do?

I have some ideas. All of them have to do with our distraction and demoralization:

1) Introduce information on scenarios that nobody can defend or protect against such as a pole shift. Nobody will survive this one. It's all hopeless. There's no need to wake anyone up since we're all going to die anyway.

2) Introduce information on an outside enemy of an ET nature. They can create stories that may leave people emotionally charged, especially for those who believe in religion. Instead of doing what we need to do, we fight amongst ourselves about who's really in charge and fall back on the irresponsible meme: I'm the victim. There's nothing I can do here, especially if these aliens engineered our species and they control our world with technology that's 5000 years ahead of anything we have here. Plus, this is a great introduction to the alien wars which is another rallying cry for world government.

3) Create drama. Much of it will eventually be resolved, but it's a good time waster and serious rifts can be developed with it.

4) Introduce fanciful stories that are seemingly connected, but have nothing to do with what is happening right NOW on our planet. Once again, it's fun like entertainment, but with all of the big problems on our planet, do we really have the time to pontificate on the details of life on mars?

5) Introduce people to some widely different views that are based on wild dreams and other "spiritual" experiences held only by the cult figure. The message here is that everything is ok, there's nothing to see and it's time to go home and just meditate and be blissful. But don't take action! The viewers who lack discernment will be fooled by these and accept them as truth.

6) Create stories to catch on people's fear of previous mass killing events such as the holocaust and the 1918 Spanish flu such as the new FEMA camps and the swine flu. The radicals among us will react by buying weapons and storing food. Fear will also cause confusion and inaction in many people.

As with anything introduced by the outside force, there's an element of truth to all of these. There could be an extinction level event. The ETs may be the outside force or they may not be it. Obama may have the best of intentions and in a spiritual sense everything is always ok. And there is a big issue with swine flu shots being given to the unknowing populace.

As they say in marketing, this is the "hook". This is what captures your attention and brings you back for more. It's the sizzle. The point is that these are all a distraction from the reality of what is happening NOW.

While many of us are spending time with #1 - #6 and arguing with each other over what we think is happening, our freedoms are being eroded, we are becoming poorer, and the very nature of commerce and government is changing faster than ever recorded in world history.

They don't have to stifle us forever. They just need long enough to put in a new government structure, some new control grids, and a further destruction of individual liberties. Once our reality merges with Orwell's 1984, we and our movement become irrelevant because there's nothing more that we can do. We need freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, the freedom to travel and communicate with each other in order to create something new. Without these things, we're finished.

In light of this, I ask you with Project Camelot, is there an unseen force that is using #1-#6 to thwart us? And why do Bill and Kerry, especially after posting their article on Scientology and the unseen force, not respond to us?

--sjkted

[clarkkent]

well, i disagree...this is a handful of people who are attracted to this info, the PTB arent scared and theyre not threatened by some people into spiritual things and conspiracy theories.

this isnt a war, its the same bullsh*** thats been going on since the first tribe decided to start farming instead of hunter gathering. civiliaztion might be a bad mistake that gets repeated and fails over and over again for all we know.

bill and kerry are easliy duped by disinfo and then pump out alarmist gloom and doom that is just as orchestrated by the people everyone rails against.

the PTB arent scared of forum posters who buy books in the new age/ metaphysical section. (thats me too, im including myself) the conspiracy world is as infiltrated as any media/religious group is.

you know who the PTB are scared of? ghandi, john lennon, martin luthor king etc. people who preach undertanding and non complaince and do more than type on a forum.

it bothers me to see people here and kerry and bill get a huge inflated sense of how cutting edge/important they are. people make themselves out to be luke skywalker vs the empire. the real luke skywlakers are the indigenous people of the planet who didnt practice any kind of life similiar to the sick society we are in. they were not able to be controlled so they were killed off or assimilated into this collective insanity.

be a good person and try not to get manipulated, thats all you can do. if they can con you into fighting them and giving them energy or commiting violence against them then they do win.

when you realize that your 99% more manipulated than you think then your waking up (and that means all of us who think we know what reality really is and whats really going on because we browse a few sites or pick up a few books)



http://superstrangeland.blogspot.com/

[sjkted]

the PTB arent scared and theyre not threatened by some people into spiritual things and conspiracy theories.


The PTB need people to believe lies and act on them. Anything that brings people together and towards the truth is a threat to them. If they weren't concerned about this, they wouldn't be spewing so much disinfo.


civiliaztion might be a bad mistake that gets repeated and fails over and over again for all we know.

On some level, I agree. It's hard to imagine it having turned out any other way. The point is unless there is some type of an ELE event, we have many options on how to rebuild civilization. Who knows, maybe we'll get it right this time? And even if we don't, there's many opportunities to resolve karma.

bill and kerry are easliy duped by disinfo and then pump out alarmist gloom and doom that is just as orchestrated by the people everyone rails against.


Agreed.

the PTB arent scared of forum posters who buy books in the new age/ metaphysical section. (thats me too, im including myself) the conspiracy world is as infiltrated as any media/religious group is.


Of course they aren't. We need to get past the new age/metaphysical section. The point is waking up (finding out the lies that we have been living and experiencing our whole lives) and then finding new solutions so we don't need to go this route again.


it bothers me to see people here and kerry and bill get a huge inflated sense of how cutting edge/important they are. people make themselves out to be luke skywalker vs the empire. the real luke skywlakers are the indigenous people of the planet who didnt practice any kind of life similiar to the sick society we are in. they were not able to be controlled so they were killed off or assimilated into this collective insanity.


I'm not trying to inflate my ego and I'm not saying that I'm cutting edge. My point is that we're in the middle of a real sh**storm and most people are just sitting back watching TV and drinking Starbucks. We are the ones living on this planet right now. If the groundcrew isn't the opposition to World Government and tyranny, then what is?

--sjkted

[clarkkent]

well anytime therea real tyranny thats in any way physical, people do get off there keesters, if the gov tried anything really nuts trust me all the people eating nachos and watching everyone loves raymond would respond bigtime.

we have a few paths

-wipe ourselves out/biologcal instability/ georgraphical cataclysm ,humanity reset button
-figure out a way of balance with technology and get along with eachother ( like some ET's probably have)
-the PTB get their way and we end up like THX-1138 (if you dont know that check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO99j...eature=related its like seeing where the illuminatti agenda would get us)


im not saying people shouldnt do research into all these matters and be awake, i just think its better to focus on getting along and not being manipulated through use of force, but so much is wrong and is ingrained into the way we live "materialism" and whatnot.

[Seashore]

Originally Posted by sjkted

My point is that we're in the middle of a real sh**storm and most people are just sitting back watching TV and drinking Starbucks. We are the ones living on this planet right now. If the groundcrew isn't the opposition to World Government and tyranny, then what is?

sjkted,

Your point is well taken by me.

I think members here have entrenched opinions and are not going to change them. In fact, pointing things out seems to make people dig in their heels.

But I hope guests of Avalon are paying attention to your well-thought out posts.

[truth and integrity]

Originally posted by tacodog
She did what she felt was necessary, in the process betrayed Bill's trust. That trust factor is between her and Bill. I disagree with the banning of FrancesJones. All the whistleblowers were entrusted with information, should they banned? What happened to the openness and integrity of this site?

I did not know that FrancieJones was banned and that her post was removed. It is getting more interesting. Members can not read her post to make up their mind where they stand on this issue. Secondly, FrancieJones can not speak for herself and explain her point of view. As I see it, Bill has started this conflict. FrancieJones asked Bill to remove her name from the Round Table. Bill responded to her request calling her hotheaded and impetuous. Had he removed her name, the problem would have been solved. Bill does not look as nice as he wants to portray himself.
I also ask myself the same question as you are” What happened to openness and integrity?”

Best regards,

[Carol]

Actually... I've been thinking about our ground crew and something else which is pretty important when we look at the various projected data regarding solar flares.

I'll start a new thread and hope it becomes a sticky where we just do a solar watch and provide tips or links on how to survive a CME.

Meanwhile, I also will pray that some of these recent ban decisions are reconsidered and our long-term members are reinstated to posting status.

[orthodoxymoron]

Even the best people seem to get entangled with petty disputes...and I'm not just talking about Avalon and Camelot...or the substance of this thread. It's sort of like fiddling while Rome burns.

Namaste

[Magamud]

In a severely corrupted world, in a house of mirrors organization is very difficult. I think sometimes that all we have is random chance and spontaneity.
By no accident our use of our mind and our communications has included malevolent intention. In a time of needed brainstorming conclusions can quite often leave no space for this. The flooding of benevolent teachers and word have been used up and no longer can one decipher fact from fiction. The slave masters know this and increase the flood of confusion. The attack is psychological, truth mixed with lies. Can we make it without relying on our state of communication?? Can we trust our telepathy and path of synchronicity to guide us...

[sjkted]

I've posted an honest letter to Bill Ryan with my views on this topic. I'm not going to double-post, but I'll put a link to it here: http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/s...&postcount=579. I'm looking forward to hearing from Bill.

--sjkted