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Old 12-22-2009, 03:40 PM   #1
EYES WIDE OPEN
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Default Climategate - I am undecided

I am undecided on what to think about all this. Is ALL the science wrong or only some?

Is anyone on here qualified to talk about this stuff so they can help me really drill down to the core info/ What are the exact problems of the science here? I am looking for someone impartial if possible. Can somebody layout the arguments are all the pros and cons of BOTH sides?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:53 PM   #2
Fredkc
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Hi E.W.O.;

I can offer my take on it, FWIW.

First, there are two conversations going on, and most have them all wrapped up into one. This centers around root cause. IMO the idea that this is man-made is pure hubris.

I happen to have grabbed a complete copy of the ClimatGate files when they came out. One of the things I can tell you is that it is such a huge volume of stuff, it will take a good 6-12 months for it to all get sorted out.

Something I did pull out, and process is a 1000-year listing of mean temps for the Northern, and Southern hemispheres, with a global avg figure as well. If you have MS-Office, or any way of opening up an Excel file, here you go:
http://fredsitelive.com/personal/Cur...000yrTemps.xls
Looks to me like, you could take someone from any one of those 1000 years, drop them in any other and they wouldn't feel a bit of difference (1-3 degrees tops, overall).

Next place I would direct you is the presentation by D. Wilcock given at the Camelot Conference. Go about 1 hr 15 min into it and he shows good evidence that it isn't just the earth. It is the entire solar system. That the source of this is electro-magnetic radiation coming from outside the solar system.
Side Note: If someone can explain how to stop that, by parking my BMW, I'm all for it.
If I were to speculate, the big reason we are not as much affected as the other planets, is our atmosphere acting as a buffer. (Smarter folk than me... jump in any time).

If you would like to read about that somewhere else, as well, then I direct you to this National Geographic story:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-warming.html
Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet´s recent climate changes have a natural—and not a human-induced—cause, according to one scientist´s controversial theory.

Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures.

In 2005 data from NASA´s Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars´s south pole had been diminishing for three summers in a row.

"The long-term increase in solar irradiance is heating both Earth and Mars," he said.

Solar Cycles
Abdussamatov believes that changes in the sun´s heat output can account for almost all the climate changes we see on both planets.

Mars and Earth, for instance, have experienced periodic ice ages throughout their histories.

"Man-made greenhouse warming has made a small contribution to the warming seen on Earth in recent years, but it cannot compete with the increase in solar irradiance," Abdussamatov said.
So, no I can't "solve" it for you, but at least I can point you towards some of the things I've read on it.

For myself, I think mainstream science hasn't even begun to scratch at the real root cause of this, nor what to do. And I think all the "It's ALL our fault" religious talk going about isn't helping much.

I think a hard-headed effort at defining the cause would go much farther than putting us all in horse carts; But I'm that way.

Enjoy!
Fred
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:06 PM   #3
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

copenhagen is the vehicle to set up world goverment. the man made global warming scenario is the scare /lie being used to get us to go along with our own enslavement and eventual extermination. climate gate was possibly a leak from an insider with last minute jitters.

the elite have been planning this world government for around 100 years. club of rome documents show that they chose global warming as a good method to get people to go along with thier plans.so bearing that in mind they have obviously ignored the climate data scandal( which they all know is a scam) and are forging ahead with the real reason for the treaty which is global government. the power will be consolidated into hte hands of the imf and world bank and the UN will be sidelined.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

man made global warming is a farce.

as the late George Carlin once said:

"Earth will shake of man like a bad case of the fleas."

There is evidence coming to light that the earth has been cooling, the ice caps are getting thicker, but ice is receding in some areas. Glacier park has seen a huge loss of ice. Other area of the planet is seeing new glaciers start.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:02 PM   #5
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredkc View Post
Hi E.W.O.;


Next place I would direct you is the presentation by D. Wilcock given at the Camelot Conference. Go about 1 hr 15 min into it and he shows good evidence that it isn't just the earth. It is the entire solar system. That the source of this is electro-magnetic radiation coming from outside the solar system.
Fred
I would tend to kind of agree with you on that... I would like to see the data Willcock presented as it looked very intresting...

My understanding coming from a layman is that the earth has been going though fluctuations in temperatures for thousands of years so its changing all the time, admitely slowly. And there must be a reason for this. I think one iceage was linked to a meter strike, from all the plum/dust/stuff pushed into the atomosphere.. The trouble with the governments is that they always have an altera agenda.. But I think Wilcocks hypothesis sounds quite compeling. And from what Ive read and gleamed from bits of information how our climate is changing it is the start of an ice age. When the El Niño melts enough of the frozen water locked in this ice caps it will switch the currents around and we will no longer be warmed by the El Niño and thus things start to freeze back up again starting a lot lower down nearer the equator. Weather the Ice age thats coming is caused by CO2 emitions, im not so sure.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

I enjoyed listening to this:
http://www.redicecreations.com/radio...RIR-091201.php
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

i don't understand why everyone (both sides of the argument) seem to insist on this being a either/or situation.

the evidence seems pretty clear that solar activity IS affecting the climate on the planets.

however, we DO pump a lot of **** into the air, AND we have deforested huge swaths of land on this planet.

so while we may not be CAUSING climate change, i tend to think we are a contributing factor. just because the sun is doing it's thing and other planets are experiencing changes as well doesn't mean we should just go ahead and continue abusing the planet for our convenience..... aren't we trying to break free of tptb programming that we need continued growth to support our sham of an economy? isn't it tptb who push down sustainable power sources in favor of the oil and coal industires?

now, i do understand that this climate conference was about maintaining the status quo in terms of the power structure. i'm not advocating taxing poor countries into oblivion. it has also never made sense to me, the whole idea of selling carbon credits so that someone else can feel forgiven for continuing to pollute the planet....

the climate summit seems to me to be just another example of the elites taking another thing we care about and twisting it to their own agenda. that doesn't make caring about this planet a bad thing. we just need to keep OUR visions of things separate from their agenda-izing.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:24 PM   #8
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Quote:
Originally Posted by morganlilith View Post
i don't understand why everyone (both sides of the argument) seem to insist on this being a either/or situation.

the evidence seems pretty clear that solar activity IS affecting the climate on the planets.

however, we DO pump a lot of **** into the air, AND we have deforested huge swaths of land on this planet.

so while we may not be CAUSING climate change, i tend to think we are a contributing factor. just because the sun is doing it's thing and other planets are experiencing changes as well doesn't mean we should just go ahead and continue abusing the planet for our convenience..... aren't we trying to break free of tptb programming that we need continued growth to support our sham of an economy? isn't it tptb who push down sustainable power sources in favor of the oil and coal industires?

now, i do understand that this climate conference was about maintaining the status quo in terms of the power structure. i'm not advocating taxing poor countries into oblivion. it has also never made sense to me, the whole idea of selling carbon credits so that someone else can feel forgiven for continuing to pollute the planet....

the climate summit seems to me to be just another example of the elites taking another thing we care about and twisting it to their own agenda. that doesn't make caring about this planet a bad thing. we just need to keep OUR visions of things separate from their agenda-izing.
Well said... It annoys the hell out of me that the elites manage to jump on to somthing and twist it for their own agenda... It should called Stop Enviromental Destruction. Grrrr!
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Quote:
Originally Posted by morganlilith View Post
i don't understand why everyone (both sides of the argument) seem to insist on this being a either/or situation.

the evidence seems pretty clear that solar activity IS affecting the climate on the planets.

however, we DO pump a lot of **** into the air, AND we have deforested huge swaths of land on this planet.

so while we may not be CAUSING climate change, i tend to think we are a contributing factor. just because the sun is doing it's thing and other planets are experiencing changes as well doesn't mean we should just go ahead and continue abusing the planet for our convenience..... aren't we trying to break free of tptb programming that we need continued growth to support our sham of an economy? isn't it tptb who push down sustainable power sources in favor of the oil and coal industires?

now, i do understand that this climate conference was about maintaining the status quo in terms of the power structure. i'm not advocating taxing poor countries into oblivion. it has also never made sense to me, the whole idea of selling carbon credits so that someone else can feel forgiven for continuing to pollute the planet....

the climate summit seems to me to be just another example of the elites taking another thing we care about and twisting it to their own agenda. that doesn't make caring about this planet a bad thing. we just need to keep OUR visions of things separate from their agenda-izing.
excellent post!! it's all about maintaining the money game, keeping the people busy, distracted, feeling guilty, fighting etc.. while they tighten the control noose a little at a time without us knowing it or doing anything about it... it's getting pretty tough for them lately.. as an exponential awareness/awakening of the planet sees through their plans..
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

My take , lets see coming up for our next acts on planet earth , earthquakes, magnetic changes, polar ice melting and some increasing, tsunamis, volcanos, hurricanes, and tornadoes. We have lots of acts coming up in the coming years, history has shown the power of mother earth.

Remember When we were kids being shown how the continents evolved, remember the one continent called Pangea- Then I think 176 times the earth has moved thru it's precession of the equinox cycle of 26,000 years which helped form the continents of what they are today. Were going thru another cycle and these are the changes were experiencing now. My personal opinion is 2011-2013 a series of episodes changing the earth once again. Will the mississippi open to 50 miles wide, california crack, who knows but there will be changes. The north pole melting I believe is due to the underground volcanic activity . Just my opinion, not scientific, just from what I have read and listened too.

As for our climate, our pollution, our throwing garbage into the oceans, the air, and yes cutting down the rain forest or building dams restricting natural flow. Yes were making a surface impact . There is also a huge amount of people working on conservation, and cleaning of the enviroment. Here in the states, heaven forbid you dig up any area that has water like a shoreline that has water weeds to make your own beach, if you do that, they will make you remove your sandy beach and put it back to natural including fines. When you buy a property here in the states before you can purchase the property (commercial)the dirt has to be cored down into the ground to check for contamination before you can get a loan.

Surface pollution, yes we are guilty of that and need much improvement but the climate changes are mother earth, the sun and natures way of taking care of her own and were here for the ride.

As for the 100 billion the U.S. just donated to the Copenhagen summit, don't count on that money going to the right places, it's a worldwide scam.
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:25 PM   #11
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Here's a really good video on the CO2 and man-made global warming issue from a scientific and political perspective. Gives a really good insight into the whole subject (English with french subtitle):

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?doc...6754758&hl=fr#
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Ok, for those who can't/don't want to look at a spread sheet,
I exported the data to a plain ol' web page:

http://fredsitelive.com/personal/Cur...00yrTemps.html

1000 years of avg planet temperatures in centigrade.
Just for fun, here are the very first and very last
three year's worth of info.

Year, Mean Temp, N Hemi, S Hemi
1001, 15.9155, 16.5835, 15.2475
1002, 15.9209, 16.5892, 15.2525
1003, 15.9252, 16.5938, 15.2567

1996, 15.8415, 16.3674, 15.3155
1997, 15.8711, 16.4086, 15.3337
1998, 15.8986, 16.4463, 15.3509

1998 was .017 deg. colder than 1001.
And it pretty much goes like that, all the way through.
______________________________________________

Next ... separate out two other subjects; warming, and pollution.

Granted! There are many stupid things we are doing, which are doing
the planet harm, many with regards to both farming and power generation
(I happen to think these are the two worst) that could, without change,
leave us with a planet that can/will not sustain this many humans.

If you want really scary stuff, try the notion of discovering that, unless
we change our ways, or let the Great Plains of the US lie fallow for 40-50
years, it might become a desert (then it'd be dead for 500 years min.). Things
like that should give people pause.

Or the fact that we throw away, or let rot, about 2/3 of the food we produce,
because of stupid socio-political reasons.

Or the percentage of clean potable water we pump into the ocean, after using
it just to make electricity. (theres gotta be a better way)

I do think there are several ways we are peein' in the punch bowl. But being either
the sole, or major cause of warming, isn't one of them. IMO


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Last edited by Fredkc; 12-22-2009 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:22 AM   #13
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

There is one simple fact that I as a horticultural specialist am aware of that most are not and it never gets brought up. Every single plant Genus on the face of the Earth is capable of consuming 3x the level of C02 currently in the atmosphere. Not only that it causes them to grow 3x faster because they convert the carbon into amino acids which are what make up plant tissues.

Why is that? You think that it is just a funny quirk in nature? Humm, I don't think that funny quirks cross continents and different genetic lines. Then what is the reason? The reason is that when plants where evolving the C02 levels where 3x higher than they are now. The only plants that could have survived if the directly proportional claimed model of C02 / temp where true would be the succulent plants in the desert.

It would have been to hot for many of the other Genus to have even gotten a foot hold. Much less evolved into so many different varieties. This is why indoor growers place C02 generators in their growing areas. They triple the rate of production by doing this. I do not remember Al Gore mentioning that in his little movie. How convenient
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:24 AM   #14
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

I have one thing to add here. Let's just say hypothetically people are the cause of global warming, assuming we can agree it warming, how does paying a carbon tax to form a global government improve the situation? Is there anyone who genuinely believes that this tax will cause the climate to improve???

--sjkted
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:27 AM   #15
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Quote:
Hot and cold flashes may be a symptom of a mild but annoying illness or of a more serious infection,
http://www.ehow.com/about_5161611_ca...d-flashes.html
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:39 AM   #16
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Here's a very worthwhile read that I believe shines a lot of light on the subject:

http://askrealjesus.com/AAGA/H_CURRE...alwarming.html
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Old 12-23-2009, 01:10 AM   #17
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Quote:
Originally Posted by tone3jaguar View Post
It would have been to hot for many of the other Genus to have even gotten a foot hold. Much less evolved into so many different varieties. This is why indoor growers place C02 generators in their growing areas. They triple the rate of production by doing this. I do not remember Al Gore mentioning that in his little movie. How convenient
Yeah I'm wondering too why this never gets brought up. Millions of years ago the CO2 levels were much much higher than today, but the problem is the climate was much hotter too, there were no iced polar caps and the sea level was 70 meters higher than now.

I'm kind of undecided too, but as long as there is a chance CO2 could cause a climate change, I think it's reasonable to do something about it.
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Old 12-23-2009, 01:55 AM   #18
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Unhappy Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredkc View Post
Hi E.W.O.;

I can offer my take on it, FWIW.

First, there are two conversations going on, and most have them all wrapped up into one. This centers around root cause. IMO the idea that this is man-made is pure hubris.

I happen to have grabbed a complete copy of the ClimatGate files when they came out. One of the things I can tell you is that it is such a huge volume of stuff, it will take a good 6-12 months for it to all get sorted out.

Something I did pull out, and process is a 1000-year listing of mean temps for the Northern, and Southern hemispheres, with a global avg figure as well. If you have MS-Office, or any way of opening up an Excel file, here you go:
http://fredsitelive.com/personal/Cur...000yrTemps.xls
Looks to me like, you could take someone from any one of those 1000 years, drop them in any other and they wouldn't feel a bit of difference (1-3 degrees tops, overall).

Next place I would direct you is the presentation by D. Wilcock given at the Camelot Conference. Go about 1 hr 15 min into it and he shows good evidence that it isn't just the earth. It is the entire solar system. That the source of this is electro-magnetic radiation coming from outside the solar system.
Side Note: If someone can explain how to stop that, by parking my BMW, I'm all for it.
If I were to speculate, the big reason we are not as much affected as the other planets, is our atmosphere acting as a buffer. (Smarter folk than me... jump in any time).

If you would like to read about that somewhere else, as well, then I direct you to this National Geographic story:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-warming.html
Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet´s recent climate changes have a natural—and not a human-induced—cause, according to one scientist´s controversial theory.

Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures.

In 2005 data from NASA´s Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars´s south pole had been diminishing for three summers in a row.

"The long-term increase in solar irradiance is heating both Earth and Mars," he said.

Solar Cycles
Abdussamatov believes that changes in the sun´s heat output can account for almost all the climate changes we see on both planets.

Mars and Earth, for instance, have experienced periodic ice ages throughout their histories.

"Man-made greenhouse warming has made a small contribution to the warming seen on Earth in recent years, but it cannot compete with the increase in solar irradiance," Abdussamatov said.
So, no I can't "solve" it for you, but at least I can point you towards some of the things I've read on it.

For myself, I think mainstream science hasn't even begun to scratch at the real root cause of this, nor what to do. And I think all the "It's ALL our fault" religious talk going about isn't helping much.

I think a hard-headed effort at defining the cause would go much farther than putting us all in horse carts; But I'm that way.

Enjoy!
Fred
Great post Fred - nice to see you again. Loved your post and thanks for the links.

Thats the thing - from what I can gather from public and private sources, it is not just Earth experiencing the rise in tempreature. And the rise on other bodies in our solar system is roughly in line with what we are experiencing.

But, you can create the "greenhouse effect" in the labratory. The burning of fossil fuels can make a difference. The studies on Earth's carbon levels - exploited by Al Gore in his slideshow - are pretty scary; according to core samples from the arctic, we are now experiencing a spike in carbon levels unprecedented in the geologic record . . . .

Now, if you are not plugged into the "conspiracy" world, and willing to consider extraplanetary data in the debate - or worse, as is most probably the case, the extraplanetary numbers are not on your radar screen because the NBC Nighty News does not report stuff like that - the carbon-output-is-the-cause-of-our-problems scenario will make the most sense. You'll clap at the screw of a million new cfls into sockets . . . .

To the OP, I'd say we are doubly screwed. On the one hand, we have some sort of extraplanetary event contributing to the rise in Earth's tempreature, and on the other, greedy corporations and a fossil fuel addicted culture that is also contributing.

I applaud the fact that so many are now paying attention to the necessity of loving this planet.

But I am saddened by the notion that it may in fact be too little too late.

Just some thoughts . . . .
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Old 12-23-2009, 05:13 AM   #19
TruthWillSetUFree
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Quote:
Originally Posted by EYES WIDE OPEN View Post
I am undecided on what to think about all this. Is ALL the science wrong or only some?

Is anyone on here qualified to talk about this stuff so they can help me really drill down to the core info/ What are the exact problems of the science here? I am looking for someone impartial if possible. Can somebody layout the arguments are all the pros and cons of BOTH sides?

Thanks in advance.
Thought this would help in gathering additional information for you to peruse.
In the first few minutes he tells you what he will be going over and what he will disprove, as well as, a fair and balanced view.
Hope it helps in your process.

Here is the write up about this:
Are Al Gore and the IPCC right about global warming being a planetary emergency? NO! … says the Viscount Monckton of Brenchley in a devastating lecture delivered at Cambridge University.

Watch Lord Monckton expose and eviscerate climate myth after climate myth. “Climate change is a non-problem. The correct policy to address a non-problem is to havethe courage to do nothing,” says lord Monckton.

http://wideeyecinema.com/?p=6634
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:49 PM   #20
Fredkc
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Default Re: Climategate - I am undecided

Just found, this morning...

Climategate Whistleblower (not hack)

By Dr. Tim Ball Wednesday, December 23, 2009

It was probably a whistleblower that released files from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia (UEA)? If so then the information is admissible in court and we will get greater detail on the greatest deception in history.

Phil Jones, former Director of the CRU knew the potential damage and legal implications of the file’s content. Jones told the police the files were from CRU, and claimed a crime was committed. Ludicrously, he said the information had no value because it was criminally obtained.
Why an Insider?

Major clues suggest the leaks were from an insider. A few emails were sent to a British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) reporter Paul Hudson on October 12, weeks before full release. This indicates someone trying to draw attention, but Hudson did nothing. He knew of the wrath and reach of Michael Mann. As a CRU member noted on October 26 2003, "Anyway, there’s going to be a lot of noise on this one, and knowing Mann’s very thin skin I am afraid he will react strongly, unless he has learned (as I hope he has) from the past….” He didn’t as his later reactions showed.

An October 11 2009 email from Narasimha Rao to Stephen Schneider says,
”You may be aware of this already. Paul Hudson, BBC’s reporter on climate change, on Friday wrote that there’s been no warming since 1998, and that pacific oscillations will force cooling for the next 20-30 years.

Note: And you can see here:
http://fredsitelive.com/personal/Cur...00yrTemps.html
that for the previous 1,000 years there wasn't much either. - Fred
Mann became aware, and on the 12th wrote, “extremely disappointing to see something like this appear on BBC. Its (sic) particularly odd, since climate is usually Richard Black’s beat at BBC (and he does a great job). From what I can tell, this guy was formerly a weather person at the Met Office. We may do something about this on RealClimate, but meanwhile it might be appropriate for the Met Office to have a say about this, I might ask Richard Black what’s up here?” This is Mann at his nasty bullying best.

Rest at:
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/18232
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