Spirituality or Knowledge

[Animos]

Originally Posted by Norval

I propose then the "Spirituality or Knowledge" question is about ones view point based
on ones experiences.

When I was the resident minister for our state capitol senior center it amazed me at how
many told me that I was the most "spiritual" person they had ever met. Thank you all for
your input thus far.

Norval L. Cunningham

What exactly is Spirituality?
What exactly is "Spirit"?

spirituality is the quest to experience spirit, and encompases anything related to it..

spirit... is an essence, a source... the ultimate

[Gale]

Excellent question Animos.
Finally

[Animos]

Originally Posted by OceanWinds

spirituality is the quest to experience spirit, and encompases anything related to it..

spirit... is an essence, a source... the ultimate

Excellent, but what is an essence, a source, what is ultimate? How can you define Ultimate? Do you need to or do you have to? Is there an End or Start? How can you show a source? Where is it?..or Where is it comming from??................???


and more important...

I would like to know what you people mean by "soul". What exactly is a Soul?

[Norval]

Originally Posted by Old Dood

This thread and ANY Thread/Post of Norval's should be ALLOWED to be shown here on this forum.

He has a canny knack for seeing through the BS.

I have suggested that Norval become a Moderator here as well.
In fact I strongly suggested that...

EDIT: Oh...One more thing. Norval at least post more for me. hehe!
I want to learn more about this myself. Dood is ignorant. Dood needs more Info/Data...
Remember, I am Watching You. (Look at my Avatar...)

Are you sure about that Old Dood? Only if I can call on others for advice at times, , like you.

Now concerning this thread, here are a few other ideas to think about.


On another personal note, and concerning what it seems many are calling spirituality, or
thinking what it means, the base word spirit, means a force or invisible power, IE wind.

One thing I do know about is what many have termed the Holy Spirit, that which is talked
about in the bible. It is interesting to note that while many are required to gather for a
spiritual meditation to try to accomplish something, the bible says if; "you" (singular) have
faith (trust) the size of a mustard seed you could cause a mountain to be lifted up and cast
into the sea. This spirit, power, flows through a person, guess it's kind of like the "force".
As near as I can figure from what the bible says about this Holy Spirit it seems to be an
energy force, like electricity, only with a personality and an attitude.

[Norval]

Originally Posted by Animos

and more important...

I would like to know what you people mean by "soul". What exactly is a Soul?

I would think that that should be asked in a new thread, What is Soul, and not the music kind.

[whitecrow]

Originally Posted by Norval

The more I learn the more I realize that I rely on my physical senses for knowledge.

Do you mean that the more you learn, the more you rely on your physical senses and realize you are doing so? If so, do you regard it as an enablement or an obstacle?

Or do you mean that the more you learn, the more you realize that you rely on your physical senses to the exclusions of other perceptions of which you are becoming aware? If so, do you find this empowering? Troubling?

[whitecrow]

This is an interesting thread. The question is something I suppose most people have asked themselves at least casually, and here we really are wrestling with these concepts and what they mean to us.

Well done, y'all!

I notice a lot of the discussion revolves around definitions. All the words - soul, knowledge, spirituality - are actually pretty hard to pin down, aren't they.

The older I get, the more I realize that definitions, while useful, are limiting and never absolute. It seems better to me to search out examples of what people mean when they use these words, and listen to what the concept sounds like. I arrive at a holistic definition - which first and foremost I know is my definition and may work fine for me and not so well for you.

I can think of two good examples. Read any of the world's great religious scriptures, and unless you are a specialist in ancient languages you are probably reading a translation, with all the loss of nuance and depth implied. It's like the enzymes being destroyed in cooked food. And yet, with even a minimal amount of study, one is capable of being transported by the depth and beauty of the revealed message. This is because the meaning is holistic and does not fully depend on the printed word.

The second example is a simple fact that everyone knows: anyone can make the facts lie. Every politician is a master of this art. At the same time, the greatest truths and deepest insights often or even usually are embodied in works of fiction.

Look at "knowledge". We all have met people who claim to "know" something that is questionable, whether it's religious dogma or the certainty that their wife would never cheat. So, what do we "know?" I am sixty years old (almost), and all my life I have "known" that this earth is a big rock going round in space and that everything on it is fully solid and real. I've "known" that God was this big guy out there somewhere who was going to make everything alright in the end. Et cetera.

Well, come to find out that my definitions ain't worth an earring to a possum. "Solid" is actually mostly empty space quickened by electromagnetic fields, and nothing is what it seems. Then it hit me, delicious irony: that's exactly what mystics have said from day one! It's all an illusion...not that it isn't "real" because it is, but it is not what it appears to be.

Does it even matter if you or I can offer a "real" definition of what a "soul" is? I'm not so sure it does. Whatever my soul is, I know it exists. Whenever I try to wrap it in words it becomes ineffable, like smoke.

One more point, then I'll shut up. We shouldn't let definitions get in the way of communications. When they enable communication they are fine but when we cannot agree on a definition let us agree on something else. You and I may never mean the same thing when we say soul or spirit or even knowledge, but I suspect we seek the same things. We might even be able to find something to come to blows over...but I'd lay odds we're far more likely to find common cause.

[353L]

Knowledge vs. Spirituality ?

Any sufficiently advanced Knowledge and its application, about the world and the invisible powers behind the curtain are indistinguishable from Spirituality.

[Frank Samuel]

Wall full of diplomas and certificates, wow !!! You know what I am learning more from my 1 1/2 yr. old than from all the schools I attended. For when you think you know something, is really the time to start over and relearn everything. Knowledge or Spritual my definition, what I learn is that I don't know anything . So I laughed enjoy life and know that even if I only live for one second I enjoy watching my baby smile and call me daddy , it was all worthwhile. I thank the heavens for letting me live in this moment, don't know if I'll come back as a fly and get smash by a fly swap. Or maybe as a fly
I'll jump in a spaceship into infinity.....away we go !!!

[Norval]

Whitecrow
The physical inputs, auditory, visual, and so on. Those senses that I rely on for learning.
As the eyes are getting a bit weaker I rely on glasses at times. There are "other" senses I
am aware of too.
Will Rodgers said; "It's not what you know, or don't know, but what you know that isn't
so that will hurt you." Good words.

353L
I think it was "Re: Spirituality or Knowledge" That "or", not vs.
But an interesting thought.

Frank
Yep, I agree that alot of formal education institutes are not worth the taxes or tuition it
takes to pay for them. Kids can teach us alot too, so can wild life.
I think my "spirit or soul" would be most comfortable being in my youthful body again, but
not a fly. Thank you!

[Frank Samuel]

Noval no offense my friend, just wanted to get achuckle of the people that read the post. I cannot talk about some things, but I'm with you and I am reading your post. Thanks for your words . Like you said we are all learning, and relearning. A big hug you ol foggie, keep those logs coming the fire is pretty warm. Hey how about a few marshmallows.

Norval...
I just wanted to share my thoughts real quick.
It maybe deemed somewhat 'off topic' but, so be it...hehe!

I am coming to the belief that the Old Testiment is the story of Alantis.
Reading that in that vein seems to open up a lot of the scripture to me anyways.

I read the Bible twice in my life. I was in my late 20's to early 30's then.
It was the King Jimmy Version too with some concordances to help with translations.
Then I studied it with others back then too. I have not read it full all way through since.

The Old Testiment to me is not very kind or loving. It is full of fear and obedience....OR ELSE! hehe

I do believe it shows us as a people how we became to be and how we were 'made' or 'engineered'.

[Genevieve]

OK heres my try at this - since this question has really intrigued me!!!

Spirit is a constant

Knowledge is a variable

As to WHAT each is hmmmmmm???

How about Spirit is the all elusive "ether" some physicists would dearly love to prove the existence of (and others disclaim)

and Knowledge is the cognitive steps we take on a physical level to gain awareness of that spirit.

Which one am I?

Well I would say that I was spirit first and foremost and i am trying my utmost to obtain the knowledge to KNOW the true nature of my own spirit.

The tricky thing about obtaining knowledge tho is to know where to look!! lol and there comes that word KNOW again - pesky thing!! In actual fact we cannot possibly KNOW where to look when its KNOWING we are lsearching for!

sigh.... its all a big conundrum - i talk myself in circles yet again!!

Originally Posted by Animos

Excellent, but what is an essence, a source, what is ultimate? How can you define Ultimate? Do you need to or do you have to? Is there an End or Start? How can you show a source? Where is it?..or Where is it comming from??................???


and more important...

I would like to know what you people mean by "soul". What exactly is a Soul?

Its hard to explain source, unless you have experienced it in some way. I will try to explain it as best I can... from my point of view to your understanding.

Its like the most beautiful awe inspiring woman you have ever seen thats always around you, but you only can see her when your not looking for her or anything else.


To my knowledge there is no end or start... its the way we perceive time that causes us to think linearly. I guess when a person achieves greater states of awareness the whole linear thing goes away.

Where is source... you experience it when your not looking for it, but intend for it. And supposedly it comes from your greater Self. (capital S)

These questions your asking take alot more in depth study... I think you would gain alot from reading something like ACIM, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, or something along those lines. Even the series of books by Carlos Castaneda will give a person a great depth into Spirit.

[Norval]

"Seek and you will find."

Words of the bible.

That may be a good place to start.

[777 The Great Work]

Originally Posted by Norval

Spirituality or Knowledge

Wiki statement on Spirituality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

Wiki statement on Knowledge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge

Personally, I think I am more knowledgeable than I am spiritual.

Maybe this should be a poll?



So, are you more spiritual, or would you say of yourself that you are more
knowledgeable?

This is like the seperation of church and state. The church is the state ,and knowledge is spiritual. Regardless of what kind, it all comes from thought which is unseen.

Originally Posted by Norval

"Seek and you will find."

Words of the bible.

That may be a good place to start.

"Ask and Ye shall recieve...." Has always 'worked' for me as well.

It has worked when I started having OBEs (ones that I remember anyways ) in the last few years.

[777 The Great Work]

Originally Posted by TranceAm

Hmm, noticing that you are on a boat you might even have that stuff available.. ;-)



It seems all knowledge is relative. And there aren't to many basis truths to build reality on.. (Hence my quote below.)
For example, if one combines the unit for Length, a Standarized Meter, how does this relate to an expanding universe? Is the Meter of 2 seconds ago, the same absolute length as the Meter that we experience or measure now? How could we measure that expansion, if everything expanded, even the "Meter" we consider as standard?



And true it is, but then again, What can really happen to us?
At most the third eye closes... And the atoms and molecules that our spirit held together, become dust in the wind and basis for other iife to build with.

The big question is, at what side of the 3rd eye is the observer?
Or where does the reader prefer to be? And based on what information/knowledge?

I threw a thought a while back in an IRC channel, that maybe sheds some light into this issue.

"Just a thought... Skip if you're not interested, but I do think that life is funny,
and how society bases everything on what happens on the outside of you, AND thus makes you concentrate on a "closed" box,
instead of what it is really about, the inside of you, that is limitless?
(And that you haven't thought about something yet, doesn't mean it ain't there or possible, correct?) "


Needless to say, there was no reflection from the void on the channel.
Maybe you have a thought there that adds or shows the inconsistency?
If so be welcome. I look forward to your thoughts to enhance mine and to learn..

Peace TranceAm

Thats the trick and illusion.That there is no outside of you . Its all in our heads.
Every thing we observe are just electrical signals processed in a very dark place in the brain. Its like watching tv. The tv recieves the signal and process that image on the screen and all images come from IMAGINATION LAND.
The other illusion is that we don't even think independently from one another.
This reality is energy condensed at a very slow vibration based on our own low vibration or level of conciousness.
Time only seperates one event from the other and every thing is happening now. As conciousness accelerate and the gap of time closes the ability to manifest will be an instant awareness.
Oh and the question about the meter. A meter is a meter. these ideas are everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
Everything is and isn't at the same time.

Others words 21 goats , 21 cats and 21 dogs are just 21. Whats real is the 21. The names are different vibrations of an idea. Whats really wierd as that if you start paying attention to how many times you see certain numbers in the matrix anywhere. They reveal the future and the pass. Very soon the matrix will fall and the hidden overlords know this. When this all start taking place. awareness is going explode like an atom bomb and the people gonna want answers.
Thats why they want us to have high definition tv so they can raise the vibration of the programming. They are scared.

[TranceAm]

Thanks you, for a waterfall of sparkling ideas.

Originally Posted by 777 The Great Work

Thats the trick and illusion.That there is no outside of you . Its all in our heads.

That becomes the question, if it is all in our heads, then do we really need heads, to keep up the illusion that it is IN our heads since there would be no outside?

Originally Posted by 777 The Great Work

Every thing we observe are just electrical signals processed in a very dark place in the brain. Its like watching tv. The tv recieves the signal and process that image on the screen and all images come from IMAGINATION LAND.
The other illusion is that we don't even think independently from one another.
This reality is energy condensed at a very slow vibration based on our own low vibration or level of conciousness.

So the higher we can get our our own vibrations or level of consciousness, the more we can "observe"/"participate" in our (expanding) reality that upto that moment was (for the observer) non-existant ..? :-) That is going to get quite interesting.

Originally Posted by 777 The Great Work

Others words 21 goats , 21 cats and 21 dogs are just 21. Whats real is the 21. The names are different vibrations of an idea.

That is going to be hard to accept for some... That what we call animals, are just persons, in what we observe as a different body. What about plants/trees?

Originally Posted by 777 The Great Work

Whats really wierd as that if you start paying attention to how many times you see certain numbers in the matrix anywhere. They reveal the future and the pass. Very soon the matrix will fall and the hidden overlords know this. When this all start taking place. awareness is going explode like an atom bomb and the people gonna want answers.
Thats why they want us to have high definition tv so they can raise the vibration of the programming. They are scared.

hmmm Makes me think (?For one reason or another?) about harmonics...
Can you explain why?
Thank you for the reply. It does make sense.

[Norval]

Now this has taken an interesting twist on what I would have to call the "Spirituality" side
of the discussion.

This choice is an artificial one and a reflection of old and unresolved arguments within an early medievel church. The two are not contradictory. Scriptural discoveries made only during the last century, The Nag Hammadi collection of Gnostic Gospels and the Dead Sea Scrolls suggest the potential of a search for knowledge [of God and true self] by an act of perfect faith. In fact a new interpretation of the Resurrection argues that this event is a metaphor for a direct intervention into the natural world by God in response to an act of faith. Knowledge and moral insight accessible by faith. Such a change in the historical 'faith' paradigm is the stuff revolution is made of?