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10-19-2008, 07:56 PM
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#176 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
When a group says that the law does not apply, because the GOVT breaks the same law, they lose all credibility, in my eyes anyway. Gary just refuses to accept the reality, that the accused don't get to choose their own punishment. |
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10-19-2008, 08:13 PM
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#177 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 155
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
I take it you would have as all click our heels and blindly obey rules no matter how arbitrary and unfair? Anyone who has the courage to break through the boundaries imposed by an oppressive system has my respect - I certainly don't see anyone being harmed by Gary's actions. Being a U.S. citizen is neither here nor there, we are all citizens of this planet and the information Gary was seeking was relevant to us all. Peace to you Murnut, I really dislike conflict 
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10-19-2008, 08:30 PM
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#178 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
I am trying to make a point that the way to defeat evil is not more evil. Condoning hacking because ufology wants answers is no different than terrorists hacking networks. Both think that they are in the right. But let's assume for a moment that Gary is some type of noble Robin Hood, doing us all a favor, what happened to his balls once he got caught? If he had any sense of right and wrong, he would have faced the music, but decided he did not like the tune of the consequences of his actions. When the Ufo community anoints a coward as a hero, it is a sad day. I don't post in reply to cause conflict, but to alert people that the reasons for supporting Gary are seriously misguided and hurt the credibility of work being done by the real heroes. Gary was offered a plea agreement of less than 3 years and refused. I have nothing against Gary, I feel bad that he has made so many poor decisions, but poor Gary has nobody to blame but himself. |
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10-19-2008, 09:00 PM
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#179 | ||
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 139
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
Since there was no protection on those computers and they were wide open you could even argue if Gary was in fact hacking... He made unauthorized access. Quote:
In real life: if there is no lock or notice keeping you out. Then you cannot determine if access is indeed illegal. And therefore it is not.. The owner of a real world site should make an effort to protect his site with a fence, a lock, or signs. In cyberspace the laws are not different. Otherwise, if you enter a random IP address in your internet explorer. Then you might unknowingly break the law by making an "Unauthorized access"... In fact everyone on the web could trick you into doing so... If there is no attempt to protect the site by (for example) setting a password or placing a sign.. How would you know? You would not and therefore connecting to an open port with an appropriate client is not considered a crime. It happened to me. I downloaded an SSH client. (Like a remote dos box) I ran it, and it had a default address. I figured it was to test drive the client like happens so often. So I connect. Next thing I know I have this screen which says that "connecting to the service" without authorization is a crime... Which I had apparently already committed... How was I supposed to know that hitting connect would be a crime? Nobody told me. And it wasn't a crime.. To commit a crime you should at least know it is a crime. Or reasonably be able to suspect your act to be a crime. Needless to say I disconnected. Trying to break a password I can understand IS a crime. Someone wants me to stay out, so I stay out. I'm not stupid.. But if they had not put a password there I would have effectively done a McKinnon on who knows whose site it was... And since I expected an open site to test the ssh client on I might not even have figured it out. If I understand correctly it was not his "unauthorized access" that they used against him but the false claims that he damaged the computers he was on for a minimum of 5000 pounds... They should have asked the prosecutors to prove this. But since they were USA national security guys they did not have to prove it. Their word was enough... They say he "Intended" to damage those computers. And so that was the crime... His claims that he intended no such thing were not even heard.. The whole illegal access thing wasn't an issue to the prosecution... I think they didn't want to advertise that they didn't actually protect those computers. So they sued him on the damages but never really proved that there were in fact damages. All you people talking about hacking and illegal access isn't even relevant to this case. |
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10-19-2008, 09:34 PM
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#180 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
He hasn't even gone to trial yet, and obviously, you have not read the indictment. Gary could get off completely, if he goes to trial. 60 years and Guantanamo are a complete exaggeration. No "hacker" has ever gotten more than 10 years, and 95% are sentence to under 5. Gary and some of his supporters have deliberately stretched the limits of the truth to play the sympathy card. |
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10-20-2008, 02:16 AM
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#181 | |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
If someone hacks a government computer.. And finds a list of names of foreign agents... Then posts that list of names on the internet resulting in said agents being killed How would you feel then? What Gary supposedly found was a list of names... IF these really were non terrestrial officers of some secret space fleet... and their names got out, their families could instantly become targets... |
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10-20-2008, 02:25 AM
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#182 | |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
So by that logic if I go out of my house one day and forget to lock the door, though its closed, that gives you the okay to walk in and rob me because I did not have a sign on my door saying keep out? |
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10-20-2008, 09:31 AM
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#183 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 42
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
The real questions here are
* What was the crime? * And what is a PROPORTIONATE punishment? Expanding on zorgon's analogy, Gary did no robbing, he just snooped around. He did not murder anyone, nor did he cause anyone to become a target. On the flip side if you did indeed leave your front door open and got robbed, you will most likely be treated by the police as the criminal, rather then the victim. No action whatsoever would be taken to investigate, find the robber, or pursue them in any way shape or form. Gary admits to snooping around... Nothing more! But snooping around is not enough to extradite someone, so we see an allegation of damage unfolds miraculously to the value of what would be sufficient to extradite someone. Since the new one sided extradition agreement between the UK and USA, no evidence needs to be provided of an alleged crime, before the person is shipped off. After the EU human right court refused to hear Gary's case, USA prosecutors admitted in a statement to the press, that the alleged damage would be very hard to prove, while at the same time a change to an existing law is introduced in the USA, where by damage is not needed to be proven to go after and hit the likes of Gary with the full wrath of the law. (Just a coincidence I am sure...) Can we trust the USA to punish this crime PROPORTIONATELY? What do you all think? Last edited by anonypony; 10-20-2008 at 09:37 AM. |
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10-20-2008, 12:12 PM
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#184 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
One or two? Most are out in less than 3. But feel free to correct me, with facts. |
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10-20-2008, 01:40 PM
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#185 | ||
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 139
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
Theres a difference between ethical behavior and committing crimes. It would not be ethical of me. But it would technically not be a crime. If I ROB you then I commit a crime... If I take something that belongs to you that is not inside your house then I would commit a crime. The fact that there is a house around the object makes no difference. Quote:
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10-20-2008, 01:59 PM
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#186 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
Not exactly "no harm" You refer to enemy combatants, this is not how Gary has been charged. If you read the decisions which Gary has lost there are multiple assurances of fairness. Gary has had due process. He has gotten terrible legal advice. And Gary's side has only been interested in distorting the facts. I understand how they feel, but understand how it hurts the overall credibility of UFO researchers who have never broken the law and are doing everything they legally can do to bring about disclosure. |
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10-20-2008, 04:24 PM
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#187 | |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
This may in fact be the KEY to this whole issue... Had Gary been US citizen it would not have gone this far... but he was a foreigner... As such they can use this to make a bigger issue of it... Add that to these three items... 1) Bill HR 1955, passed in the House 2) Pentagon: The internet needs to be dealt with as if it were an enemy "weapons system". http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=7980 2a) US plans to 'fight the net' revealed http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4655196.stm 3) Internet presents web of security issues http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/websecurity/ Perhaps they are using this to further their plans to control the internet. If they can show that outsiders like Gary with minimal skills can do what they claim he did... it would give them leverage to place heavy restrictions on the internet |
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10-21-2008, 12:49 AM
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#188 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 115
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
This is not a normal hacker case. He saw very confidential documents that are probably responsible for all this secrecy. They would put him far from everyone so that he doesn't spread the truth concerning that issue. You are corrected. |
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10-21-2008, 04:09 AM
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#189 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
Do you really think the people that run the cover up are this stupid? If he had really had seen anything worth covering up, you would have never had heard his name ever. Gary I think has exaggerated his claims. I doubt the "Secret Space Program" files or UFO files are on/were on networks able to be accessed. The Greatest secrets in the history of the world, enforced by the best cover up ever.....were left on a open network? Not believable! |
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10-21-2008, 11:39 AM
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#190 | ||
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 42
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
It has been my personal view right from the word go, that controlling the internet was always the main reason for this case. Other aspects of this case may serve a purpose too, but restricting and controlling the internet was the main aim. I say 'was' because I think whoever is behind the original master plan, underestimated how long it will take to get Gary and since he was first caught till now, the control and surveillance over the internet has changed beyond recognition. (The agenda achieved without Gary’s case) One thing is clear - when there is an 'agenda' - it always manifests one way or another, and those who are behind it, never relay on just one avenue to achieve their aim. I also hold the view that 9 out of 10 they tell us well in advance what the plan is, but very few take note of those nuggets when they appear a mid the white noise the media constantly generates. To illustrate both points I can recall a televised speech by bush senior it was the evening of 911 and the speech was before some business association. He said amongst other things related to the events of that morning: The internet as you know it will change! It can not stay free as it is. We will control and restrict it. Easy to ignore such statements when they are made a mid the biggest mass mind control exercise ever unlashed on the people of this earth... Nevertheless the agenda was clearly stated wide in the open. Did the internet change? I can share with you that since I made contact with Bill and Kerry regarding this case, my phone, email and skype are all taped! Now, I have nothing to hide, as far as I know supporting the ply for justice of another human being is no crime, yet the initial feeling I experienced was that of violation and intimidation... The outcome of such actions is a clear violation of ones privacy and freedom of speech and designed to intimidate one to stop their activities. So yes from my perspective the internet has changed! Take this forum and thread, the ‘paid to post’ thought police is here in full force - keep reiterating the same points ad infinitum, no matter what the discussion is about, just like well media trained politicians, when interviewed by the likes of Snow and Paxman who insist on getting answers to their questions... Another thing that supports the view that this case aims to further their plans to control the internet, is the fact that Gary did not tell the media what he has seen until the USA ordered his extradition in 2004, some 4 years into the case. Viewing this case from that perspective also explains why this case started with such hype, branded by the USA as the ‘biggest ever hack’ or as ‘cyber terrorism’ with great damage alleged to later on being played down as time passes and the agenda being fulfilled anyway, too many questions are raised and finger pointing towards torture and abuse of human rights, law changes, shorter sentence promises, and on and on. The reason why Gary would never get a fair trial is perfectly illustrated by posting such as Murnat’s : Quote:
Through years of research it is my observation that beyond the existence of conspiracies lay a vast sea of incompetence, which we tend to underestimate... As I understand it, it only takes one user having his/her computer unprotected and plugged to both networks at the same time, for someone like Gary to have open access to hundreds of un protected machines and users who incompetently think they are secure by the fact that their network is separate from the public internet. Last edited by anonypony; 10-21-2008 at 11:43 AM. |
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10-21-2008, 02:28 PM
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#191 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Apony,
Not exactly. Gary has has due process in his extradition process. He has lost his appeals. Just how many do you think are in on the "Get Gary" campaign? Yes, he has not had his day in court yet. But he has done nothing except try to avoid it. I hope he gets off, I really do. I just hope he does not further damage the credibility of the Real heroes along the way. Paid to post my ass |
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10-26-2008, 04:23 AM
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#192 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
I was saddened and disturbed to read in the October 13th Camelot up-date about Gary Mc Kinnon's extradition from the U.K. to the United States to stand trial. However dire his situation might appear, there is a divine Law of Adjustment that can overturn his situation and bring forth a positive outcome. I would like to enlist the support of every member of Project Avalon to keep Gary in our thoughts and prayers. No so-called human power can withstand the power of Truth and Love. Let's not underestimate the power of our collective intention.
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10-30-2008, 07:10 PM
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#193 |
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 89
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
I half heard something on the BBC to day, they said the Scottish government are going to try to keep him here on medical grounds, or something along those lines, pretty vague I know but if it's true we will hear something soon!
Hope so. |
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10-30-2008, 08:05 PM
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#194 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: U.K.
Posts: 3,380
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Gibson:Is Mckinnon still here?
Thursday 30 October 2008, 5:39 PM Posted by Tom Espiner http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,...tm?new_comment You wouldn't expect one of the FBI agents involved in the case of Gary McKinnon to have much sympathy with the alleged Nasa hacker. Ed Gibson, who now works for Microsoft as its security adviser to the UK, in a previous life worked as an FBI legal attache in the UK, and was involved in McKinnon's controversial plea bargaining process. McKinnon is accused of "the biggest military hack of all time" for accessing US military computers, and faces almost certain extradition. McKinnon, who claims he was looking for evidence of UFOs, has never denied accessing the military computers, but denies deliberately deleting files and causing damage. He was recently diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, a condition on the autistic spectrum. The temperature at an RSA Conference Europe press event plummeted when I raised the subject of McKinnon's probable extradition with Gibson. I asked the ex-FBI agent whether he thought Gary McKinnon's Asperger's diagnosis should have any bearing on whether or not McKinnon should be extradited. Gibson replied: "I think Jacqui Smith made the determination -- the Asperger's diagnosis shouldn't have any bearing [on whether McKinnon is extradited]," said Gibson. "Is he still here?" When I said that yes, McKinnon was still here, Gibson said: "Why?" I said that his defence lawyers were seeking a judicial review of Home Secretary Jacqui Smith's decision to extradite the self-confessed hacker, given his Asperger's diagnosis. The already chilly atmosphere in the press room dropped still further when I quizzed Gibson as to his role in the plea bargaining. Gibson is believed to have told Karen Todner, McKinnon's solicitor, that the New Jersey authorities were determined to see McKinnon "fry" for his alleged crimes, should he be extradited. New Jersey has the death penalty. When I asked Gibson whether he had threatened that McKinnon could "fry", Gibson muttered: "That was never said. The court records are really clear." I was curious as to whether that was correct, so I gave Karen Todner a ring. She told me she had sworn an affadavit that Gibson had said McKinnon could "fry", while Gibson had sworn an affadavit that he hadn't said that. "[Gibson] later sent me an email insisting he hadn't said that," said Todner. Hmmm, sounds to me that it still isn't "really clear" exactly what was said at all. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scot...ve-.4643340.jp Calls grow to save autistic Scots hacker from threat of US prison Published Date: 30 October 2008 By Gerri Peev PRESSURE is growing on the Home Secretary to step in and halt the extradition of a Scots-born autistic computer hacker who is facing up to 60 years in a US prison. Shadow justice minister David Burrowes MP was today set to put down a motion in parliament calling on Jacqui Smith to review the medical records of Gary McKinnon who is only weeks away from being sent to the US. Mr McKinnon's supporters claim he was merely looking for information on his UFO hobby rather than being "the biggest military computer hacker of all time" as the US claims. The supporters say the unemployed UFO obsessive, who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome, has become a recluse and is on suicide watch after becoming depressed while awaiting his looming extradition. In the US he faces life in prison for using his dial-up modem to hack into computer systems at the Pentagon and at Nasa between 2001 and 2003. The Glasgow-born 42-year-old went from being a cannabis-smoking hacker looking for conspiracy theories on UFOs to America's most wanted cyber-terrorist after 9/11. So far, an appeal to the House of Lords has been rejected and now Mr McKinnon's legal team is waiting for a judgment on a judicial review which it has asked for in light of his recent diagnosis with Asperger's. A decision on the review is due imminently. Should this be turned down, he will have just ten days to pack his bags, possibly never to return. Mr Burrowes, his MP, is demanding his extradition be halted until his condition has been more carefully assessed. Last night he said: "My concern is also over this extradition treaty where UK citizens are being plucked out of our country without evidence and facing the full force of the American law." The Home Secretary is also facing pressure to ensure Mr McKinnon is at least allowed to return to the UK on bail before the many months that could await him before a trial. Mr Burrowes pointed out nationals of countries such as Israel and the Netherlands are allowed to serve their sentences at home, and asked why Mr McKinnon has to be sent to America. cont.on link above. Last edited by Antaletriangle; 10-30-2008 at 08:08 PM. |
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11-01-2008, 04:31 AM
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#195 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 226
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
Hah ? I'd like to know what dimension your flowering in ? ------------------ As far as Gary?, Would like to respect the USA will treat him and his proved hacking and/or espionage with the same jurisprudence the UK would under similar circumstances. Seems to me the man's in some serious trouble if convicted. RSF |
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11-03-2008, 03:17 PM
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#196 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 42
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Cross-party attempt to fight extradition of British hacker
Just to let you know what is going on at the mo. The following article was published in the Guardian this morning and it reflects the state of things as far as I know. However it does not mention the fact, that you can send a letter to your MP or all MPs and ask them to sign the Early Day Motion No. 2388 ‘Extradition of Gary McKinnon’ (brought by his local MP David Burrowes, 30/10/2008) at the earliest opportunity.
If you like to support Gary Please keep the pressure on... When I hear the phrase 'Cross Party' I can't help but think - what they really mean and are signalling to the public is - Don't get exited, we all agree here, that something needs to be done, go back to sleep and we will swipe this under the carpet, ops... take care of it, while you are not looking, you will not even know it was ever here...  Please keep the pressure on... I think the UK Government is concerned, that the public will wake up to the fact that the extradition laws they have signed are one sided and should have never been signed in the first place. But when the blind leading the blind what can we expect... Cross-party attempt to fight extradition of British hacker
The former home secretary David Blunkett is among those who believe that, because McKinnon has been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, he should be immediately repatriated if convicted. In an early day motion, the shadow justice minister, David Burrowes, has urged Smith not to permit the extradition without assurances from the US that McKinnon would be repatriated to serve any sentence in the UK if found guilty. Burrowes, the MP for the Enfield Southgate constituency in north London, where McKinnon lives, has alerted the home secretary to the "accepted practice" of the Dutch and Israeli governments requiring assurances from the US that any nationals with medical or mental health disabilities being deported to face trial should be repatriated to serve any sentence imposed. Blunkett, who was in office when the 2003 Extradition Act was passed, said yesterday that he was supporting calls for McKinnon to serve any sentence in the UK because of his "special needs". Burrowes's motion has already been supported by Chris Huhne, the Lib Dem home affairs spokesman, Chris Mullin, the former Foreign Office minister, and the Tory MP John Bercow. Burrowes has also asked Harriet Harman, the leader of the house, for a debate on the proposed extradition. He noted that the house had debated the case of the NatWest Three, also known as the Enron Three, and asked Harman: "Can at least similar efforts be made on behalf of my constituent, who is a vulnerable young man of little means who was ... recently diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome?" Lord West, the Home Office minister with responsibility for security, wrote to Burrowes last week telling him that "we reconsidered ... but found no grounds for overturning the order to surrender". McKinnon has also had support from the leading constitutional lawyer Geoffrey Robertson QC. "Jack Straw bent over backwards to accommodate Pinochet's medical condition," said Robertson, in a reference to the decision not to extradite the late Chilean dictator because he had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. "It is highly unsatisfactory that this gifted and unusual British citizen should be extradited to face a massive sentence when he could have been prosecuted here before a British jury." Lawyers acting for McKinnon, 42, are seeking a judicial review of the case. McKinnon's mother, Janis Sharp, said: "Gary has Asperger's syndrome ... He believed the UK police when, almost seven years ago, they told him he would probably get six months' community service. Without having engaged a lawyer, he naively admitted to computer misuse but has always denied the alleged damage." Last edited by anonypony; 11-03-2008 at 03:20 PM. |
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11-03-2008, 03:29 PM
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#197 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 42
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Ask MPs to sign Early Day Motion No. 2388 sample letter
This is a sample letter asking your MP and all MPs to sign Early Day Motion No. 2388.
The best thing you can do, is write your own, second best - modify the one here to suit you view, if all of the above is not an option please feel free to use this one add mp name and you signature at the end. BW AP MP - House of Commons London, SW1A 0AA Dear MP I am writing to you that you may consider and sign the Early Day Motion No. 2388 ‘Extradition of Gary McKinnon’ (brought by his local MP David Burrowes, 30/10/2008) at the earliest opportunity. The purpose of EDM 2388 is to have the current Extradition Treaty between the UK and the USA amended whereby vulnerable people, such as those with Aspergers Syndrome, a form of Autism, or other mental health issues could not be extradited to the US until they have been given express assurances from the US authorities that in the event of being found guilty, and facing a period of imprisonment, they would be immediately repatriated to serve their sentence in the UK. Thus the vulnerable would be close to their family, and within reach of long term doctors or specialists who may have worked with them in the past and understand their requirements. Accused by the US authorities of hacking into and damaging US military and NASA computers, Gary McKinnon admits entering their computer systems in search of information about UFO’s and free energy but denies causing damage. Gary has recently been confirmed by a number of leading professionals in the field as having Aspergers Syndrome, a form of Autism. It was brought to his family’s attention by members of the Autism community who recognised common traits in his behaviour during recent media exposure. Unfortunately the discovery and diagnosis only came to light after the various unsuccessful appeals in the UK against his extradition. The emphasis of my letter to you concerns Gary, yet it has far wider implications. Whether you feel Gary should be extradited or not, is it not imperative that UK citizens are protected by their country? Whilst the extradition treaty currently subjects all UK residents to the unanswerable and unproven demands of a foreign state, allowances must be made, as I believe in the Netherlands and Israel, to protect the vulnerable. Thank you for reading this – please sign EDM 2388 and request your fellow MP’s to also sign. This issue is far too important – I urge you to view it and act with compassion. Yours sincerely, |
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11-03-2008, 03:59 PM
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#198 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Trial in the States, sentence to be served in Britain, if any.
This, I have no problem with. Fair enough? |
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11-03-2008, 04:45 PM
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#199 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 42
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
So I take it you will be sending your letters too?
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11-04-2008, 02:25 AM
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#200 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
No...I won't.
I am an American. I am not represented in the UK. But I have semi-relatives in the UK that do support Gary. So you would support Gary's trial in the States, and serving in UK? |
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