Disclosure Endgame

[trainedobserver]

Project Camelot has a link pointing to David Wilcock's new Disclosure Endgame 'ebook'. A series of web pages that attempt to explain the Norway Spiral as something other than a missile failure. One aspect that really gets me is the introduction of Crop Circles into the whole mess.

D.W. says "Based on the extensive evidence we reviewed at the time, which you can go back and read for yourself [if the link weren't broken. t.o.], the Circlemakers clearly seemed to be suggesting that the Russians' acquisition of these documents [secret HAARP docs from Georgia! t.o.] would be a critical step that would lead to the final defeat of the New World Order. "

Wow! Knowing that the crop-circle makers are a bunch of human beings just throws a big wet blanket over that whole theory doesn't it? David Wilcock missing this vital piece of information calls some questions to his analytical abilities. IMHO of course. Your mileage may vary.

[quetzalcoatl11]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

Project Camelot has a link pointing to David Wilcock's new Disclosure Endgame 'ebook'. A series of web pages that attempt to explain the Norway Spiral as something other than a missile failure. One aspect that really gets me is the introduction of Crop Circles into the whole mess.

D.W. says "Based on the extensive evidence we reviewed at the time, which you can go back and read for yourself [if the link weren't broken. t.o.], the Circlemakers clearly seemed to be suggesting that the Russians' acquisition of these documents [secret HAARP docs from Georgia! t.o.] would be a critical step that would lead to the final defeat of the New World Order. "

Wow! Knowing that the crop-circle makers are a bunch of human beings just throws a big wet blanket over that whole theory doesn't it? David Wilcock missing this vital piece of information calls some questions to his analytical abilities. IMHO of course. Your mileage may vary.

I understand your point and while it is understandable that the particular crop circle in reference may or may not have been indicating the event in question, you are making a large assumption that David believes the circle makers to be 'human beings' and you do not provide any corresponding evidence to conclude that David himself believes this to be fact. I do not believe David was implying the circle makers to be humans, whether or not it corresponded to the event in question is surely worth debating but be careful not to put words into anyone's mouth without being able to cite a conclusive reference confirming it. His reference seemed, instead, to indicate an awareness that the date/event played a pivotal event in what subsequently transpired and he was able to interpret the crop circle as being related to this event.

I look at crop circles as they appear, as symbols- which will be interpreted in an infinite number of ways and fashions- all of which speak to a numinous and deeper part of ourselves or collective lives, but yet always maintaining an ineffable and indescribable quality as well. I think David does a tremendous job of trying to capture new information and insight and is at the forefront of the expanding awareness- whether he ultimately turns out to be right or wrong is irrelevant when compared to the tremendous impact he's had on advancing collective awareness and so it's my opinion that trying to use this particular area of reference to discredit his overall report is not an effective argument- especially as you would first need to establish credibility that David does consider the crop circles to be a human phenomenon (and, more importantly, that this particular crop circle was a human creation). I am certain David would admit to the fact there are human hoaxsters involved both at an amateur and professional (govt.) level but I believe you may have misinterpreted his article.

[trainedobserver]

In my opinion, for members of the UFO/paranormal/faux-reality show lecture circuit to latch on to the Norway Spiral is as foolish as those (who shall remain nameless, but you can look them up) hitched their stars to the Hale-Bopp comet companion fiasco were tainted by the subsequent embarrassment and horror associated with the Heaven's Gate catastrophe. Not only are extreme interpretations of the event most likely going to pan out to be wrong, but you are going to cause a great deal of distress and concern amongst a percentage of the populace who take you and whatever event you are exploiting seriously. As we've seen in the past some individuals can take it to the extreme.

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by quetzalcoatl11

... you are making a large assumption that David believes the circle makers to be 'human beings' and you do not provide any corresponding evidence to conclude that David himself believes this to be fact. ...

No, you've misunderstood me. Sorry. I think David W. believes just the opposite. He thinks Crop Circles are made by something other than human beings. I'm the one who knows crop circles are made by human beings. Sorry I wasn't more clear in the post.

[quetzalcoatl11]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

In my opinion, for members of the UFO/paranormal/faux-reality show lecture circuit to latch on to the Norway Spiral is as foolish as those (who shall remain nameless, but you can look them up) hitched their stars to the Hale-Bopp comet companion fiasco were tainted by the subsequent embarrassment and horror associated with the Heaven's Gate catastrophe. Not only are extreme interpretations of the event most likely going to pan out to be wrong, but you are going to cause a great deal of distress and concern amongst a percentage of the populace who take you and whatever event you are exploiting seriously. As we've seen in the past some individuals can take it to the extreme.

Okay, now this is a more reasonable direction to take your argument in and it's highly acceptable that it could turn out to be true. I think that many of us have at this time an almost palpable sense that we are the brink of 'something', but nobody really knows what that is- as humans, we tend to try and 'capture' this sense by tying together events and assigning a common meaning to them, this is natural for us to try and better understand what it is happening, but it always comes out of our own inventory of knowledge, intuition, and judgement so it is therefore necessarily skewed.

I feel that the UFO disclosure event is imminent, and would like very much to believe this to be correct. And yet, I realize that great changes to humanity on a collective level, such as a formal announcement of UFO's, always take much longer to finally come to fruition. In the meantime, people need anchors, especially with the energy going haywire lately, David is an anchor and so are many of us on here as well, including you.

[quetzalcoatl11]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

No, you've misunderstood me. Sorry. I think David W. believes just the opposite. He thinks Crop Circles are made by something other than human beings. I'm the one who knows crop circles are made by human beings. Sorry I wasn't more clear in the post.

no problem at all, thank for clarifying this point.

[Soulcrafter]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

Project Camelot has a link pointing to David Wilcock's new Disclosure Endgame 'ebook'. A series of web pages that attempt to explain the Norway Spiral as something other than a missile failure. One aspect that really gets me is the introduction of Crop Circles into the whole mess.

D.W. says "Based on the extensive evidence we reviewed at the time, which you can go back and read for yourself [if the link weren't broken. t.o.], the Circlemakers clearly seemed to be suggesting that the Russians' acquisition of these documents [secret HAARP docs from Georgia! t.o.] would be a critical step that would lead to the final defeat of the New World Order. "

Wow! Knowing that the crop-circle makers are a bunch of human beings just throws a big wet blanket over that whole theory doesn't it? David Wilcock missing this vital piece of information calls some questions to his analytical abilities. IMHO of course. Your mileage may vary.

Yes, what a shame DW thinks the circlemakers are an outside source or energy-aliens whatever. If he would put some more time in the subject i'm sure he will see it's the work of humans making patterns about certain theme's and world-events. Same accounts for John Mack. Aldoh he wasn't really coming out anymore with his thought that it was an outside source. Looks like he was changing his mind after all.

As Edgar Mitchell once said: the crop circle phenomena is just a big circus

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by Soulcrafter

Y... If he would put some more time in the subject i'm sure he will see it's the work of humans making patterns about certain theme's and world-events. Same accounts for John Mack. ...

I understand how people can be fooled and drawn into the whole thing. Education is the answer.

[quetzalcoatl11]

Soulcrafter and trainedobserver, I'm curious whether either of you have anything that can confirm or backup or your statements here or whether they are just your gut feeling? Education would require knowledge from somewhere, could either of you please elaborate/elucidate?

I can agree with the sense that many crop circles are hoaxes created by sometimes elaborate networks within the government but I'm interested in why you feel ALL circles are created by humans? And when I say this, I don't intend to suggest that the remaining ones are created by aliens or extraterrestrials, whose to say these are not created by the very energy of the Earth itself and patterns which are the result of emanations from a more complex form of energy?

[Céline]

Now this is a very good thread, i have learned much from reading all your opinions...

It is interesting to see others points of view on DW... i am...unconvinced but intrigued nonetheless

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by quetzalcoatl11

Soulcrafter and trainedobserver, I'm curious whether either of you have anything that can confirm or backup or your statements here or whether they are just your gut feeling? Education would require knowledge from somewhere, could either of you please elaborate/elucidate?

I think it is pretty much covered in the SNOW CIRCLES thread where we had two confessed circle makers lay it all out with numerous references and video resources.

The short version is this. All complex crop circles are made by humans. It has been shown that the various 'anomalous phenomena' associated with 'genuine' crop circles are also found in known human created crop circles. The crop circle phenomena is some sort of strange social phenomena rather than a paranormal one. Crop circle makers have demonstrated how to detect that crop circles are man made and the steps necessary to construct them. Not everyone will accept this I understand.

The truth is anyone who uses messages decoded from Crop Circles to support their theories is on very shaky ground. As is anyone who takes positions of 'extreme interpretation' of events like Hale-Bopp or the Norway Spiral. We should exercise caution.

[Soulcrafter]

Originally Posted by quetzalcoatl11

Soulcrafter and trainedobserver, I'm curious whether either of you have anything that can confirm or backup or your statements here or whether they are just your gut feeling? Education would require knowledge from somewhere, could either of you please elaborate/elucidate?

Like Trainedobserver said, me and Truthseekers have covered that in another thread. See Snow circles instead of Crop circles thread. More ??? always welcome. We will do our best to answer them.

Originally Posted by quetzalcoatl11

I can agree with the sense that many crop circles are hoaxes created by sometimes elaborate networks within the government but I'm interested in why you feel ALL circles are created by humans? And when I say this, I don't intend to suggest that the remaining ones are created by aliens or extraterrestrials, whose to say these are not created by the very energy of the Earth itself and patterns which are the result of emanations from a more complex form of energy?

Crop circles are not hoaxes, at least we circlemakers don't call 'em that.
No elaborate networks creating them either, just groups of people who make them. There is simply NO evidence backing up that crop circles would be made from an outside force. Trained observer did very well on puttinng that in short.

[Soulcrafter]

Originally Posted by Céline

Now this is a very good thread, i have learned much from reading all your opinions...

It is interesting to see others points of view on DW... i am...unconvinced but intrigued nonetheless

I'm glad you keep an open mind.

[Céline]

Originally Posted by Soulcrafter

I'm glad you keep an open mind.

Thank you. i find it is an important thing to do if one wants to learn.

i do find the artistic qualities of circles to be very pleasing...though i do not get a sense they are from off world...

but this is only based on intuition...

my intuition also leads me to think the the circlemakers....have more thne just art on their minds...

[quetzalcoatl11]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

I think it is pretty much covered in the SNOW CIRCLES thread where we had two confessed circle makers lay it all out with numerous references and video resources.

The short version is this. All complex crop circles are made by humans. It has been shown that the various 'anomalous phenomena' associated with 'genuine' crop circles are also found in known human created crop circles. The crop circle phenomena is some sort of strange social phenomena rather than a paranormal one. Crop circle makers have demonstrated how to detect that crop circles are man made and the steps necessary to construct them. Not everyone will accept this I understand.

The truth is anyone who uses messages decoded from Crop Circles to support their theories is on very shaky ground. As is anyone who takes positions of 'extreme interpretation' of events like Hale-Bopp or the Norway Spiral. We should exercise caution.

Okay, I should let you know that the first warning I read in your reply was that ALL crop circles are made by humans. You are aware that crop circles were around long before the 20th century? And long before they were a social phenomena in our connected 'Global Village'? If so, how do you account for all crop circles as man-made hoaxes and the result of a social phenomenon? How can you, or anybody for that matter, conclusively make an all or nothing statement such as that? I find it amusing but slightly disturbing to know that you are taking the accounts of two individuals as the basis for making such a broad and sweeping generalization.

The second warning I read in your reply was when you used words such as "extreme interpretation," and "We should exercise caution." I agree, yes we should exercise caution, which is why when you suggest that a generalized statement such as 'all crop circles are man-made hoaxes,' and then go on to provide confirmation of this generalization by providing the statements of only two individuals I grow wary of how you, yourself, are exercising caution in your own judgement and statements. Anytime one feigns to be an authority on any matter and state generalizations as an absolute and utter fact usually reflects that some more searching is necessary. The more you learn, the more you realize the less you know, and the more open you become- not the opposite.

[Soulcrafter]

Originally Posted by Céline

Thank you. i find it is an important thing to do if one wants to learn.

i do find the artistic qualities of circles to be very pleasing...though i do not get a sense they are from off world...

but this is only based on intuition...

my intuition also leads me to think the the circlemakers....have more thne just art on their minds...

Most welcome Céline,

Yes, it means more then art (without the signature).
And there are no other means of artwork where you can actually walk into and get a feeling or certain thoughts. What i have heard the most is that when people walk into circles the first thing they do is notice how they feel. Somehow feelings get amplified in a way. Certainly there are quite some "weird" effects in formations such as bright flashes of light, balls of lights (seen with the eye), missing time, changing weather and even healing seems to be possible. Now if the researchers would focus on all that we can take this "phenomena" to a whole new level don't you think.

[quetzalcoatl11]

Originally Posted by Soulcrafter

Most welcome Céline,

Yes, it means more then art (without the signature).
And there are no other means of artwork where you can actually walk into and get a feeling or certain thoughts. What i have heard the most is that when people walk into circles the first thing they do is notice how they feel. Somehow feelings get amplified in a way. Certainly there are quite some "weird" effects in formations such as bright flashes of light, balls of lights (seen with the eye), missing time, changing weather and even healing seems to be possible. Now if the researchers would focus on all that we can take this "phenomena" to a whole new level don't you think.

Soulcrafter, you seem to be fluctuating here in your statements, you first state that ALL crop circles are man-made, then go on to qualify that there are definite extraworldly or amplified strange effects such as 'balls of light seen with the eye', ect. found within these circles, so my question to you is, if these are simple man-made constructions- how do you account for the strange phenomena and experiences associated with these constructions?

[Céline]

Originally Posted by Soulcrafter

Now if the researchers would focus on all that we can take this "phenomena" to a whole new level don't you think.

Completly agree...

i would like to visit a circle one day...but there are none in my part of the world.

[Soulcrafter]

Originally Posted by quetzalcoatl11

Okay, I should let you know that the first warning I read in your reply was that ALL crop circles are made by humans. You are aware that crop circles were around long before the 20th century? And long before they were a social phenomena in our connected 'Global Village'? If so, how do you account for all crop circles as man-made hoaxes and the result of a social phenomenon?

Humans existed also long before the 20th century didn't they?
Why would one think they didn't also had the idea of making simple circles or complex ones in their fields. Druids also made circles in fields to have seances in them. There are also accounts of pagan groups who did the same to honor nature in those circles.

[Soulcrafter]

Originally Posted by quetzalcoatl11

Soulcrafter, you seem to be fluctuating here in your statements, you first state that ALL crop circles are man-made, then go on to qualify that there are definite extraworldly or amplified strange effects such as 'balls of light seen with the eye', ect. found within these circles, so my question to you is, if these are simple man-made constructions- how do you account for the strange phenomena and experiences associated with these constructions?

That's exactly the thing that should be researched. Balls of light are not a part of crop circles, Are they attracted to them? We don't know. Are they always around near energetic sites? Possible. But we certainly have seen them up close more then once. The 3 hour documentary of Truthseekers666 youtube channel goes deeper into this. If you are interested you should watch the whole film.

[truthseekers]

Trained observer stated that because the circles are made by people that relying on interpretations of their meaning could be on shaky ground, or words to that effect.

I would point out that as a circlemaker I do believe in strange events happening whereby human circlemakers have been able to go out and creat circle designs that were being asked for by researchers through meditation. On other occasions circlemaker teams have gone out to the same field on the same night and made circles of similar type next to each other without knowing the other teams were going to be there. If the design ideas come from inpsiration and this could be a group mind, higher mind or alien mind the results of what the circles mean could still be significant. There is also the possibility that the circles mean nothing but are still derived from a group mind way.

Whilst I am very much trying to promote the truth that circlemakers make the circles, I think that the point is sometimes missed that we are not saying that there is no paranormality connected to crop circles. Infact we welcome research into this area. Who knows the reason strange things do happen in and around man made circles. Even more puzzling is why channeled sources say "its Aliens" - unless they are just lying - either the channeled information source or teh aliens. Now thats an interesting concept, Aliens lying... and why.

[Soulcrafter]

Originally Posted by Céline

Completly agree...

i would like to visit a circle one day...but there are none in my part of the world.

Oh yes there have been many circles in Canada.
http://www.cropcirclequest.com/

[quetzalcoatl11]

Originally Posted by Soulcrafter

That's exactly the thing that should be researched. Balls of light are not a part of crop circles, Are they attracted to them? We don't know. Are they always around near energetic sites? Possible.

So, what has you so certain for you that these very same balls of light aren't in some way responsible for the circles? Yes, humans have been around for some time now, but you are trying to qualify that all circles are man-made which is a very broad and conclusive statement for someone does not seem capable of making such a statement. I think that by making such a statement one is also suggested attempting to devalue the meanings behind the symbols as ambivalent at best, frauds and contrivances at worst.

Symbols are the next stage in consciousness, they do not originate here on Earth and are not a dominant form of communication within our physical world, however, in all higher dimensional realms they are the prevalent form of communication. Look to your dreams, or to any who have been in an altered state of perception, that is where you see the symbols- because they are not of this world but participate in it to communicate to us corresponding ideas which inform our waking state.

[Céline]

Originally Posted by Soulcrafter

Oh yes there have been many circles in Canada.
http://www.cropcirclequest.com/

i am in Quebec...there does not seem to be any here..

[Soulcrafter]

Originally Posted by quetzalcoatl11

So, what has you so certain for you that these very same balls of light aren't in some way responsible for the circles? Yes, humans have been around for some time now, but you are trying to qualify that all circles are man-made which is a very broad and conclusive statement for someone does not seem capable of making such a statement. I think that by making such a statement one is also suggested attempting to devalue the meanings behind the symbols as ambivalent at best, frauds and contrivances at worst.

Why would you believe the statements that it's Alien?
That's a very bold one in my opinion.

Originally Posted by quetzalcoatl11

Symbols are the next stage in consciousness, they do not originate here on Earth and are not a dominant form of communication within our physical world, however, in all higher dimensional realms they are the prevalent form of communication. Look to your dreams, or to any who have been in an altered state of perception, that is where you see the symbols- because they are not of this world but participate in it to communicate to us corresponding ideas which inform our waking state.

I have about 1450 designs drawn, does that make me other wordly?
Yes symbols-sigils are quite powerfull indeed, maybe that has to do with the amplified effect when one walks in them.