See The Future in the US... Look at Brazil....

[Steve_A]

Hi Steven,

In many things you are right. However Collor was not impeached for corruption. He was impeached because of political pressure over the Senators. Don't get me wrong, I'm not siding with the bloke, after all he is a politician and I'm sure not one is pure as the driven snow.

An interesting point is that he is now a senator.

I agree that the difference between the rich and poor in Brazil is immense, I think I mentioned that in my post. This problem unfortunately cannot be resolved overnight as this would create raging inflation just to pay reajusted wages. It could also bring out other social imbalances in the process, so it is being sorted out slowly.

Who took place of Collor was in fact Itamar Franco. Cardoso was the first elected president after Collor.

Lula is media champion here in Brazil. Café com o Presidente is his radio show and over here the media is mainly large groups like Globo that control TV, newspapers, radio and magazines, a sort of like a local Rupert Murdoch. There is Bandeirantes, Abril and other regional media conglomerates, for example in the city of João Pessoa in Paraíba there is a company that controls one of the newspapers, one of the TV channels, two of the radio stations and the internet provider of that city. As you can imagine, the media will ALWAYS support who is paying their wages in advertising - local government.

But with all said and done, I'm not criticizing, I'm only seeing that there is a great similarity between what has happened here in Brazil over the last eight years and what I'm beginning to see happening in the US.

Yes I tend to agree that with you that there is a tendency for Venezuela, Equador, Argentina and some others that could blend together politically. There already is the Mercosur in place and Brazil is already trading with Argentina with their own currencies.

Look how socialist Canada and Mexico are..... is there going to be a thingy going to happen in North America. Surely most need to be on the same page.

Best regards,

Steve

Originally Posted by Steven

Hi Steve. I see your point but here is my thoughts about it. I was in Brazil from 1994 to 1998 and Collor had just gone from empeachment. Collor was so corrupted and totally aligned with the rich brazilian oligarchy and latifundarios. The poeple just couldn't let him go with it, it was way too much for the rich and way too less for the poors.

The country had known a military dictationship for 20 years, until 1985. And Lula was one who courageously stood against this tyranny. Creating the first union illegally. Then after the dictatorship he created the ''workers party'', social democratic from the begining to oppose this strong right wing force who took place after the military dictatorship. In fact, while the dictatorship was in power, behind it the real power in command was the brazilian oligarchy and latifundarios.

Henrique Cardoso took place after Collor winning against Lula twice. Cardoso presented himself as a social democratic defender center aligned, but in the facts, it was still behind a control of the richs who controlled the lands, the medias, the industries and even the church placed a right wing conservatory archbishop at the head of the concil of bishops. It is important to mention it because the church is BIG in Brazil.

So, now we have Lula winning twice sequentially. It is in my eyes very logical to see Lula applying exactly what he preached for the last 30 years. The first thing he did when he first entered in power was the cancelation of the renewal of many jet fighters for the airforce. Saying he can not build an airforce when millions of brazilian children lacks food, health and education. Of course, he encountered a tremendous opposing force and had to put some water in his wine cup.

In other words, it is the return of the pendulum... It might happen in the U.S. and also in many countries around the globe. Look at most of the political power in place all over america latina, it is all social democrate, Venezuela and Equador being the most opposed to the old oligarchic power traditionnally sustained by the U.S. and the old famillies.

Namaste, Steven

[Steven]

Originally Posted by Steve_A

...However Collor was not impeached for corruption. He was impeached because of political pressure over the Senators...

...the media will ALWAYS support who is paying their wages in advertising - local government...

Hi Steve. Thanks for your answers. About Collor, don't forget he was trown out of his seat by a mob of people taking the streets in Brazilia by million. It was very impressive and this movement came from the ''comunidade de base'' and the political left wing, ''communist party'' and ''workers party''. The senators were not in control in this play, but the poeple.

It happens when the rich oligarchic power in place crosses an invisible limit. This is also how the cuban revolution took place. When way too much power lies in the hands of a few and they simply share nothing back with the poeple, while the poeple are the ones who works to build the very empire that oppresses them, the awakening of a sleeping giant takes place. It might happen in the U.S. I see this country just like this. A sleeping giant who might awake due to over use of its population. This might be the very reason why we see socialism appearing in so many countries.

About the media... The media's owners don't change over the years, in whatever country. Lula is simply putting some water in is wine cup, he has not much choice, he is in ''power'' now...

Namaste, Steven

[Humble Janitor]

I would rather the government give money to people to help them climb out of poverty than spend another dime on our corrupted military industrial complex.

How can someone possibly believe that this is bad?

If you pay taxes, it is your right to demand that you get something out of it. I pay taxes, I want my bailout.

Whether it's the far left in this country or moderate-far right, they both can see how the stimulus packages have screwed the average person. Something must be changed.

[Steve_A]

Hi Steven,

I have to resectfuly disagree with you about the Collor thingy. The people who took to the streets, the 'Caras Pintadas' were, on the whole, students and certainly were not in their millions, thousands maybe, but in a country, at that time, with a population of 120 million, it was small fry. However, the media supported (along with the opposition) the cause and so on TV the manifestation appeared to be a popular uprising, in reality a far cry from the 'paneladas' of Argentina.

During the impeachment process, the senators were saying things like, "For my wife and my district I vote to impeach". Or, "To satisfy my colleagues, I vote to impeach". Not one mentioned corruption during the impeachment process - which is why I said that Collor wasn't impeached for corruption, as during the vote for impeachment nobody accused him of that.

As for the Communist and Socialist left wing that impeached him, that also is not quite correct because the next ELECTED president was a conservative social democrat, FHC, who is from the PSDB party - Partido Social Democrata do Brasil (Social Democratic Party of Brazil) - actually he founded the party.

Media over here is more flexible than you think. Over here the bottom line is regarded more importantly than many other things like loyalty. It would take another thread to explain how the Brazilian media works, but you can be rest assured that Lula (whose favourite delicacy is rabbit) has his 12 year old whisky well stocked up, not much water there except for which melts from the ice cubes!

His humble beginnings have been well forgotten except during election times when he plays them out to the full.

Best regards,

Steve

Originally Posted by Steven

Hi Steve. Thanks for your answers. About Collor, don't forget he was trown out of his seat by a mob of people taking the streets in Brazilia by million. It was very impressive and this movement came from the ''comunidade de base'' and the political left wing, ''communist party'' and ''workers party''. The senators were not in control in this play, but the poeple.

It happens when the rich oligarchic power in place crosses an invisible limit. This is also how the cuban revolution took place. When way too much power lies in the hands of a few and they simply share nothing back with the poeple, while the poeple are the ones who works to build the very empire that oppresses them, the awakening of a sleeping giant takes place. It might happen in the U.S. I see this country just like this. A sleeping giant who might awake due to over use of its population. This might be the very reason why we see socialism appearing in so many countries.

About the media... The media's owners don't change over the years, in whatever country. Lula is simply putting some water in is wine cup, he has not much choice, he is in ''power'' now...

Namaste, Steven