The ego what is it? How to transcend?

[RedeZra]

Originally Posted by HORIZONS

Riddle me this: I am the One, yet I am individually expressed. Therefore who am I?

it's a wonder


Infinity

within

the finite


so I Am Infinite

but I cannot believe it

so I limit it

to me

[HORIZONS]

Originally Posted by RedeZra

it's a wonder


Infinity

within

the finite


so I Am Infinite

but I cannot believe it

so I limit it

to me

Thus, you have perfectly described the human dilemma.

[truthseekerdan]

Great chit-chat on this thread...

The matter of fact is that the ego is our worst enemy (adversary).

I, us, we have to fight the ego (duality), every moment of spiritual growth.

I, us, we have the free will to either manifest God/Love/Christos, or ego/satan/devil.

I, us, we can Be MORE in the I AM THAT I AM.


~ Espavo ~

[greybeard]

Good morning.
My friends wow you have been busy.
It does my heart good to see so much wisdom coming to this thread.

In answer to 14
Certainly in the case Of David Hawkins there is no ego and the self of him is the same Self as the Self of Ramana etc it also the same Self as the Self of you.
Hawkins says he is not actually in the body, "People talk to it but thats the way it is here"

We cant fully understand till we are in that state but David Hawkins comes closest to describing what it is like.
Awareness remains and that is eternal. That is what you are and I are as One. Awareness.
There are levels of God awareness (even that is not absolutely correct) The first being full enlightenment as described by Hawkins. He is not saying he is God God as I understand it.
More comment very welcome and much appreciated
Chris


I have reposted this from previous page.

There is so many thoughts on what enlightenment is that I thought it best to get it straight from the one who is in such a state.

There are levels of enlightenment and after fully transcending the ego this is an account of the final state
copied from the book "I Reality and Subjectivity" by Dr David Hawkins MD Ph.D

"Suddenly without warning, a shift in awareness occurred and the Presence totally prevailed, unmistakable and all encompassing. There were a few moments of intense apprehension as the self died, and then the absoluteness of the Presence inspired a flash of awe. This breakthrough was spectacular and more intense than anything before. It had no counterpart in ordinary experience. The profound shock was was cushioned by the love that is the Presence. Without the support and protection of that love, it seems that one would be annihilated.
There followed a moment of terror as the ego clung to its existence, fearing it would become nothingness. Instead, as it died, it was replaced by the Self as Everythingness, the All in which everything was known and obvious in its perfect expression of its own essence.
With non-locality came the awareness that one is all that ever was or can be. One is total and complete, beyond all identities, beyond gender, beyond even humanness itself. One need never again fear suffering and death.

What happened to the body beyond this point is immaterial. At certain level of spiritual awareness, ailments of the body heal or spontaneously disappear, but in the Absolute state such considerations are irrelevant.
The body will run its predicted course and then return from whence it came. Its a matter of no importance, Reality is unaffected. The body is an it rather than a me; just another object like furniture in a room. It may seem comical that people still address the body as though it were an individual you, but there is no way to explain this state of awareness to the unaware. It is best to just go about ones business and allow providence to handle the social adjustment. However as one reaches bliss, it is very difficult to conceal that state of intense ecstasy.
in this final apocalypse of the self, the dissolution of the sole remaining duality of existence versus non existence dissolves in Universal Divinity and no individual consciousness is left to chose. The last step, then, is taken by God."

[4Q529]

Originally Posted by greybeard

That is what you are and I are as One. Awareness.

Such "awareness" can only be accomplished through the 'movement' of self-reflection, which is intrinsically dualizing; and, for that reason, the origin of conflict and violence. (This is symbolized by the "serpent" in Genesis 3 and the "dragon" in the Revelation of John.)

This is simply inescapable.

Originally Posted by greybeard

There is so many thoughts on what enlightenment is that I thought it best to get it straight from the one who is in such a state.

As observed by Krishnamurti, thought is intrinsically dualistic; and, for that reason, at least an exacerbation and intensification of conflict and violence.

This is inescapable.

Thus, thoughts about "enlightenment" are not in any way helpful to the actual reduction in the real world of conflict and violence.

Rather, the obsessive focusing upon "enlightenment" among the Eastern religious traditions is essentially no different than the incessant focusing upon personal "salvation" in the Western religious traditions. It only magnifies conflict and violence.

Originally Posted by greybeard

There are levels of enlightenment...

All of this is nothing more than thought; and, thus, merely the continuation of conflict and violence.

[greybeard]

This might be helpful, not saying its true but it is a way of looking at it.

Taking Dr Hawkins map of consciousness, which is presented as logarithmic scale, as a context.

God is infinity and therefore beyond calibration.
Archangels 50000
Enlightenment on earth up to 1000.
All the spiritual giants calibrate at this, Jesus the Buddah Krishna.
Enlightenment first level 600 (non-duality)
Sainthood very high 500s ( Saints are still very much in this world though not of it.)
Unconditional love 545
Megalomania 60.

The highest truth is that only God is.
So its likened to step down transformer,with highest spiritual energy God.
At lower levels we are unaware of consciousness at play we are so strongly identified with ego story we think we are it.
As our individual consciousness evolves we become aware that we are not just
a body, that may be an intellectual understanding to begin with.
We begin to disassociate from the play realizing that our perception has been mistaken and that there is no one out there doing anything to us, there is no external enemy, its the way we perceive events, our interpretation.
People are just being themselves.

Example, if people are angry and that anger heads in our direction, that is not a personal event, its just anger expressing itself and we happen to be handy for that to manifest. If we are not there, then, that anger would be expressed at some one or something else.

Eventually we can look at what is going on from an observer witness state and be unaffected by the play but there is compassion for those who still believe they are at the mercy of life. (Illusion)

If we are firmly entrenched in the belief in God, that we are not a body, how can death affect us? Except for compassion for others who are equal to us but not at the same level of understanding. Death is very real to them as is fear.

When enlightenment occurs it is not a personal event as there is no person left to claim it.
That is my understanding of the moment.
Comment very welcome.

Chris
Namaste

[greybeard]

4q529
Good to see you here contributing.
Yes you are right about thought being dualistic which is why KM said " I dont mind"
The reason so few are enlightened is that they pursue something out with themselves, dualistic.
Dr Hawkins goes in to great depth on the reason why so few make it in the book.
"Discovery of the presence of God"
The truly Enlightened Sages are thoughtless awareness, its hard for them to describe as they are everything and aware of everything. How can you describe the color white when you are white and so is everything else? Yet that is not that. It is not describable in human terms it is beyond mind.

4q529 if you can accept that KM was enlightened as are others in the past why not check out Hawkins for yourself. People seem to have difficulty in accepting that that there are spiritual geniuses, enlightened sages, here Now.

Those who are Truth have to step down to our level of vibration and understanding to encourage us and point the way as Jesus did.
They do not experience the world the way we do at all.
He, Jesus, said "I am the way" The "I" is the way and it is found inside.
The question is not who am I? but "What am I?"

Again this is my current understanding and words can never be truth as talking about "I"
is not "I"

Chris
Namaste.

[greybeard]

Sai Baba said "Its good to be born into a religion, bad to die in one"
I was baptized Catholic but as stated much earlier I escaped pre-school.

Krisha said (I cant find the exact quote posted earlier on the forum.)
"Even those who are mislead and head in the wrong direction are mine"
Anyone who truly loves God is in a good place regardless of which religion they are in or not in.
Back to Beren saying "Love love and then see what happens."

We don't know whats going to happen.

I am aware that there is potential for world war three, if that happens the next war will be fought with bows and arrows. I don't even like to go there.
Its a hypothetical.
Putting energy to that thought just adds to the potential for it to happen in my opinion.
Better to look for peacful and harmonious world.
The Nexus thread on this forum is filled with people actively doing this.

Anti war parades for example are expressing anger and frustration and are very violent affairs.
Mahatma Gandhi liberated India without firing a single shot, that is the power of high spiritual energy.
Mother Teresa said you might find me at a peace rally but not at an ant-war one.
Attacking violence is still attacking, its a similar energy.
Those who live by the sword die by the sword.

I cant debate the meaning of text from the bible as I have not studied in any depth.
The first two commandments say it all for me.

Im just letting right brain write.

With love to all who contribute here.
Chris

[4Q529]

Originally Posted by greybeard

We don't know whats going to happen.

In reality, Sir, you can speak only for yourself.

The use of the word "we" in such situations is a (probably) unconscious claim of Omniscience. You can say what you don't know; but you cannot claim to know that there is not one person on the face of the earth who knows what is going to happen. That would mean that you are claiming to be God Himself.

You have no way of knowing what I know about what is going to happen or that I even know it.

Originally Posted by greybeard

I am aware that there is potential for world war three, if that happens the next war will be fought with bows and arrows. I don't even like to go there. Its a hypothetical.

It may very well be a hypothetical for you, Sir.

But that does not mean that it is hypothetical for everyone.

That is what a Prophecy is.

Originally Posted by greybeard

Putting energy to that thought just adds to the potential for it to happen in my opinion.

On the other hand, if David Bowman in 2001--A Space Odyssey simply ignores the fact that the HAL 9000 computer has killed all the other members of the crew, he will be the next victim.

Originally Posted by greybeard

Attacking violence is still attacking, its a similar energy.

Jesus attacked the Pharisees and Sadducees for their violations of the Law and their contradictions of Revealed Truth.

There is simply no other word for it, if you read the Gospels carefully.

Originally Posted by greybeard

Those who live by the sword die by the sword.

It is, of course, quite disgusting when someone attacks Jesus and then quotes Jesus to support such an attack.

Attacking lies through Truth is not "living by the sword".

"Living by the sword" is lying, censoring the Truth, and murdering those who contradict you.

[greybeard]

4q529
I stand corrected.
My understanding of the word hypothetical is that it has not happened yet, therefore not a factual reality. I not saying the receiving of prophesy is not a fact, it just hasn't happened as yet in everyone else's reality.
Some prophesies come into being some do not.
Anyway I don't pretend to be a scholar so I cant debate the bible or its meaning with you.
I really don't mind.
Regards
Chris

[4Q529]

Originally Posted by greybeard

4q529 if you can accept that KM was enlightened...

Don't mean to be offensive here, Sir.

But I don't care if he was or not.

It is of absolutely no interest to me whatsoever.

You could not pay me to read something that he wrote.

The entire concept of "enlightenment" has no value for me whatsoever. All discussion over whether or how this or that person is or is not or can or cannot be or become "enlightened" is, to me, a fundamental distraction from doing anything real in diminishing violence and conflict.

Originally Posted by greybeard

Those who are Truth have to step down to our level of vibration and understanding to encourage us and point the way as Jesus did.
They do not experience the world the way we do at all.

Sir, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever of how I experience the world.

None.

If you want to speak for yourself, feel free.

But you cannot speak for me.

Originally Posted by greybeard

He, Jesus, said "I am the way"

What Jesus said is "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

The Truth conveyed by merely the phonetic tones of those words (the meaning of which is Revealed through the Vision of the "Son of man", the which is Revealed through the Revelation of the "resurrection") can be translated as: I am the Revelation of the "resurrection"; I am the Vision of the "Son of man"; I am the Law."

What was left unsaid is that both the Revelation of the "resurrection" and the Vision of the "Son of man" utterly consume the "I"--something that you have no Knowledge of.

[HORIZONS]

Originally Posted by 4Q529

What Jesus said is "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

The Truth conveyed by merely the phonetic tones of those words (the meaning of which is Revealed through the Vision of the "Son of man", the which is Revealed through the Revelation of the "resurrection") can be translated as: I am the Revelation of the "resurrection"; I am the Vision of the "Son of man"; I am the Law."

What was left unsaid is that both the Revelation of the "resurrection" and the Vision of the "Son of man" utterly consume the "I"--something that you have no Knowledge of.

Interesting thought: Expand on it some...

[4Q529]

Originally Posted by HORIZONS

Interesting thought: Expand on it some...

Well, first I have to consider whether providing such an explanation would come under the category of "self-promotion".

What do you 'think'?

[HORIZONS]

Originally Posted by 4Q529

Well, first I have to consider whether providing such an explanation would come under the category of "self-promotion".

What do you 'think'?

Well, I see the mission of Jesus as the death of the egoic state, the rebirth of the True state and the ascension into the fullness of this. This thread is about our views on the ego and how to transcend it - I think this can be explained in the work of the Christ. How about you?

[greybeard]

4q529
With respect.
There is a disclaimer that I put on most posts that I dont know and its just my point of view.
Enlightenment is just a word and words are not it.
I posted some where else Dr Hawkins statement that only God passes through the final door
There is no David Hawkins left.
Please tell me why I should believe what you say more than what passes through the form that was Dr Hawkins I am not disbelieving you or Dr Hawkins.

I am not educated, being dyslexic, I left school at the age of fifteen with out even standard grade. My knowledge therefore of the bible is limited to the religious instruction I got at school then which was non-denominational and is a distant memory.
I virtually taught myself to read and later found the joy of reading spiritual text from Sri Ramana Yogananda, Ramesh Balsekar, then recently Eckhart Tolle and currently Dr David Hawkins, so I take your word for it that you are very knowledgeable regarding the word of Jesus and the essence of it. Never the less the God of my understanding save me from suicidal alcoholism at the age of 25. I have been on the spiritual path in my own way ever since and have experienced the Love of God descending on me and leaving me in an incoherent state of bliss for two days, where all I could see and experience was pure love.
So that where I am personally coming from.

Chris
Namaste

[HORIZONS]

Originally Posted by greybeard

4q529
With respect.
There is a disclaimer that I put on most posts that I dont know and its just my point of view.
Enlightenment is just a word and words are not it.
I posted some where else Dr Hawkins statement that only God passes through the final door
There is no David Hawkins left.
Please tell me why I should believe what you say more than what passes through the form that was Dr Hawkins I am not disbelieving you or Dr Hawkins.

I am not educated, being dyslexic, I left school at the age of fifteen with out even standard grade. My knowledge therefore of the bible is limited to the religious instruction I got at school then which was non-denominational and is a distant memory.
I virtually taught myself to read and later found the joy of reading spiritual text from Sri Ramana Yogananda, Ramesh Balsekar, then recently Eckhart Tolle and currently Dr David Hawkins, so I take your word for it that you are very knowledgeable regarding the word of Jesus and the essence of it. Never the less the God of my understanding save me from suicidal alcoholism at the age of 25. I have been on the spiritual path in my own way ever since and have experienced the Love of God descending on me and leaving me in an incoherent state of bliss for two days, where all I could see and experience was pure love.
So that where I am personally coming from.

Chris
Namaste

Namaste to you, for experience speaks truer and louder then beLIEfs.

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by HORIZONS

Namaste to you, for experience speaks truer and louder then beLIEfs.

And to you HORIZON's
Loud drummer
This loud bass player says.
One of my best friends Uffe looked at me one day and said "Your just a child chris"
That made me very happy.

I agree with your take on the message of Christ on the cross.

Jesus taught to simple people, You have to be as a child etc

Chris
Namaste

[annemirri]

a.

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by annemirri

The key to enlightenment, " to transcend ego" is

not to take oneself too seriously, or anyone else, not to be too adult,

to have childlike wonder, joy, bliss, carefree being,

to take things lightly, as miracles happen in light..

be genuine, true to yourself,

love unconditionally yourself and others,

expect nothing, and give all you have...

keep things simple...nothing is fixed, or last forever,
even the truths are changing...

a.

Hi annemirri my new scorpio friend.
Yes so true, and dance and sing , which I do.
Chris
Namaste

[14 Chakras]

If you take an honest look, you will see very clearly that those who achieve enlightenment, while they may at times have similar teachings, are very different Beings.

They do not approach Life exactly the same way, they express differently and they are unique. For me, it is simply not realistic to say they are the same. They are not the same. They are unique. Moreso even than most egos, which is why many are famous in certain circles. They are interesting, they have Light, they BE.

From my perspective, enlightenment is not about achieving sameness. It's about realizing we're One. That we are an individualization of the infinite and Being that individualization, Being MORE.

Oneness is reality. When the seperate self dies, we are no longer caught in comparisons, in the thinker. However, do we disapear? Can an enlightened sage himself create a new Universe and sustain eternally? No. They are not the fullness of the creator, they are a Free Willed individualization of infinity, as are you and me, they just see that we're one, whereas the human ego tries to convince us that we are separate. That's the difference between enlightened Being and ego non-being.

Each of us has a Divine Flame that is Unique in the mind of God. We have been given the gift of Free Will. This was not a mistake from God. This is not something God will take away. This is permanent. Free Will. Free Will to express our own unique talents below and Be all that we are Above ~ not the 'same' being, but a unique being with unique talents and viewpoints that is here to share them and help raise up creation here Now.

It is true, there are infinite Ways of enlightenment. Truth is spherical, non-linear. Infinity does not have a top end. It's infinite. Everything can grow infinitely. Up to infinity? No. There is no top end to infinity.

Putting enlightenment on a linear scale to me implies that consciousness is linear. I do not believe this is the case. Consciousness is spherical and it happens in the Now. There are no comparisons in infinity, only More.

Is there a 'scale' of highest that someone can be in a body. If there is such an upper limit, then note well that it is transcended every Now. Jesus said "You will do the works that I do, only greater works than these you will do."

Perhaps, the game of Life, is Life itSelf rather than achieving a static state. Perhaps, it's always about Being More, rather than disappearing, or achieving the 'most' that the 'rules' allow to achieve. Perhaps the 'rules' are that we are here to transcend, indefinitely, forever More.

Whatever One has done before, will be surpassed by those who choose to Be Now. Whatever comes Now, will be surpassed in a future Now. Otherwise, we're not in the river of Life, we're in the ego that seeks stability in non-change. Change is Life, Being MORE. Non-change is death. Non-life.

Perfection only happens Now. Being Now. The present moment, that's perfect. There's no end state to perfection. Only Life, only Being. Change is reality. Change of transcending our current sense of identity forever More.

I suggest seek God in Being More Now, rather than in disappearing into a static state of 'bliss'.

We are here Now to Be Masters, to finally transcend the slave consciousness.

To me, to say we are not co-creators is to not take responsibility for our world. Yet we are co-creators, we've created our own suffering by choosing not to be and letting wolves in sheeps clothing control our world, by being the blind following the blind, and now we will co-create abundance by connecting to our source, our own I AM Presence within and letting it Be the doer without.

[RedeZra]

Originally Posted by 14 Chakras

Perhaps, the game of Life, is Life itSelf rather than achieving a static state. Perhaps, it's always about Being More, rather than disappearing, or achieving the 'most' that the 'rules' allow to achieve. Perhaps the 'rules' are that we are here to transcend, indefinitely, forever More.

this tells me nothing about anything

it's like blob


up up and away lol

where did he go

to forever More

where is it

it is very High

Originally Posted by 14 Chakras

I suggest seek God in Being More Now, rather than in disappearing into a static state of 'bliss'.

We are here Now to Be Masters, to finally transcend the slave consciousness.

Being More Now

what does that even mean


I see you want to be a Master

but master of what


what do you want with God

whose pristine state is Bliss

[beren]

Remember why one once good being has fallen?

because of his big


EGO

[4Q529]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Please tell me why I should believe what you say more than what passes through the form that was Dr Hawkins I am not disbelieving you or Dr Hawkins.

Sir, I am specifically not telling you that you should believe what I say. And I mean this quite seriously.

Belief is thought and thought is dualistic.

For you to believe what I am saying would be worse than not believing what I am saying. In other words, I would prefer that you disbelieve me; and that you choose, rather, to see whether there is any merit in what I am saying. That's all.

Do you see that?

Because you would be holding on to a thought, which is dualistic.

Look at the difference between poetry and the lyrics of songs, as compared to philosophical or religious arguments.

Poetry and song lyrics merely describe what the writer is experiencing. That does not at all involve a question of belief. Either one accepts what the writer is saying or one does not accept it. (I would say that the poem If, by Rudyard Kipling, conveys more through poetry than the greatest psychiatrists of all time. It does not contain even so much as one logical or scientific argument about human consciousness. Yet, the meaning it conveys is quite clear.)

Philosophical and religious arguments, on the other hand, are a function of belief.

Now, why is it that the Revelation of John, being a Revelation, does not contain even so much as one logical argument?

Because it is not of thought or logic.

The meaning of the Revelation of John is conveyed in words which are much closer to poetry or song lyrics than to any philosophical or religious argument.

So, what I have said about those Revelations is also much closer to poetry than to any logical argument.

A poet or a song writer would not ask you whether you believe what he or she has written; but, rather, what is the meaning that those words convey to you. This is a completely different kind of discussion than a philosophical or logical argument. And this kind of thing can also be found in the Gospel of Thomas.

This is also why Jesus could explain his Teaching to fishermen who were not at all educated in the theology of the time. The Teaching strikes at a much deeper level, similar to poetry.

From a wider perspective, my own personal experience has demonstrated the dangers of following a religion of "love". That religion--Christianity--also included the burning of 'witches' and 'heretics', Crusades against Albigensians, Jews and Muslims and all manner of other kinds of evil against other peoples.

Love is something that is much too easily expropriated to the considerations of the "self".

My focus is, instead, upon the very narrow area of Doctrinal Truth.

That is the path that has been chosen for me and that is the Knowledge that I have.

My understanding is that if the issue of Doctrinal Truth is pursued that will result in a decrease in bloodshed and violence.

That is not everyone's path.

But that is my path.

[greybeard]

dear 4q259
Thank you for your answer,
I have stated elsewhere that there is merit in what you are expounding.
Wishing you all the best on your path.
Look forward to any further contributions that you may feel you want to make to this thread.

Chris

[greybeard]

Dear 14 Chakras
The map of consciousness is exactly that, as pertaining to this world perception.
I honestly dont do justice to the teaching of DH as he writes about 350 pages per book and there are a few now.
You are just getting snap shots of my understanding or miss-understanding so dont take what I say as verbatim.
Because I am not in the state that Hawkins is in I cant explain it.

I am not in disagreement with anything you say, of course we are capable of more and there will be further adventures and advances in consciousness.
Each state is perfect and complete in itself moment by moment that doesn't mean that there is not more but that is by free will, spiritual intention.

It may be that the reason differences in presentation and personality is due to the culture, era and audience.
Teachers say that the "The Teacher and the Taught are the same" one consciousness.
That there is only one consciousness, Consciousness is not what we are, we are beyond even that. We are awareness being aware of consciousness.

Either Dr David Hawkins is enlightened or he is not. I believe beyond doubt he is.
I went to America to hear him talk at Longbeach California. The lecture "Living the prayer" It was worth it.

The choice is simple. I listen to what flows through his form and that teaching is relevant to me or I chase after this and that for a few more life times.

I am not a follower of any person. I am a follower of Truth as it presents itself to me at a level I am capable of understanding at this moment, at moment it is coming through the form of DH, as said earlier there is no David Hawkins left.
If what comes through his form from non-locality says only God walks through the final door who am i to disagree.

I cant answer deep questions on his behalf I wouldnt even try.
I have the essence of the teaching but expressing it accurately I find difficult.

I am not taking away from your understanding of truth or anyone elses my friend.
I have just found for myself a form of teaching that resonates very strongly with what is inside me.
Typing for me is a one finger job and constant sell check so thats it for now.

With great respect for you and your knowledge !4 Chakras
Good night
Chris
Namaste