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orthodoxymoron · 04-01-2010, 09:23 PM

“Be careful not to do your acts of righteousness before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

"This, then, is how you should pray:

'Our Father' in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."--Matthew 6:1-15 NIV

Is Jesus telling people NOT to go to church? Is Jesus telling people that going to church can be hazardous to their salvation? Jesus started Christianity…not Churchianity! He instructed people in how to live and pray…not how to build churches or how to conduct church services. He did not instruct people to worship Him…did He?

It’s tempting to get a real harangue going at this point! It can actually be fun…for awhile…until people start getting hurt. I think there should be a delicate balance of going to church…and not going to church. One should not view attending church and participating in religious rituals as a means of gaining God’s favor and escaping the flames of Hell. One should also not go to church to see and be seen…to make business and political contacts…or to parade how virtuous, charitable, good looking, or successful they are. Church should be there if you need it. If you don’t need it…don’t go.

To me…the best time to go to church is when there is no church service. I like the Roman Catholic tradition of having the church open every day…at least during daylight hours. It is truly inspiring to see people kneeling and privately praying to God. It’s even better when the organist is practicing. There is something about a service…or a concert…that takes away something very special from a church. The lights get turned up, the sound system gets turned on…and the stained glass windows just don’t look the same. There are people talking and laughing…which isn’t all bad…but it just isn’t as meditative. There is a tension of pretension during a service or concert which is not totally unlike a secular show.

I prefer going into an empty church…sitting down at the organ…and improvising a prayer to God. I play music that probably would not work in most church services…but that is between God and me. I think about spiritual themes as I play. If I hit a discordant note…I quickly resolve it…without having to worry about being fired by someone who looks like they need an extra-strength laxative…always...

In this passage, Jesus connects salvation with behavior…how you pray and how you treat others. The forgiveness of sins was available prior to the cross…and this forgiveness was behavior related…not unconditional! Doesn't forgiveness of sins equal salvation…in a qualifying sense? If that is the case, then salvation was available before the cross! And notice that Jesus does not tell people to pray to Him for forgiveness…so that He could then plead their case before some big, mean-old God. Jesus taught that salvation is obtained by a right relationship with God and neighbor! Not by being declared righteous…while continuing to be unrighteous! The terms remain unchanged after the cross!

Also, it is helpful to really think about the words of the Lord's Prayer, and not just mindlessly say it with the usual Godbot-like monotone and pauses!

04-01-2010, 09:23 PM	#55
orthodoxymoron Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lunar Base II Posts: 3,093	Re: Red Letter Church “Be careful not to do your acts of righteousness before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. "This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father' in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."--Matthew 6:1-15 NIV Is Jesus telling people NOT to go to church? Is Jesus telling people that going to church can be hazardous to their salvation? Jesus started Christianity…not Churchianity! He instructed people in how to live and pray…not how to build churches or how to conduct church services. He did not instruct people to worship Him…did He? It’s tempting to get a real harangue going at this point! It can actually be fun…for awhile…until people start getting hurt. I think there should be a delicate balance of going to church…and not going to church. One should not view attending church and participating in religious rituals as a means of gaining God’s favor and escaping the flames of Hell. One should also not go to church to see and be seen…to make business and political contacts…or to parade how virtuous, charitable, good looking, or successful they are. Church should be there if you need it. If you don’t need it…don’t go. To me…the best time to go to church is when there is no church service. I like the Roman Catholic tradition of having the church open every day…at least during daylight hours. It is truly inspiring to see people kneeling and privately praying to God. It’s even better when the organist is practicing. There is something about a service…or a concert…that takes away something very special from a church. The lights get turned up, the sound system gets turned on…and the stained glass windows just don’t look the same. There are people talking and laughing…which isn’t all bad…but it just isn’t as meditative. There is a tension of pretension during a service or concert which is not totally unlike a secular show. I prefer going into an empty church…sitting down at the organ…and improvising a prayer to God. I play music that probably would not work in most church services…but that is between God and me. I think about spiritual themes as I play. If I hit a discordant note…I quickly resolve it…without having to worry about being fired by someone who looks like they need an extra-strength laxative…always... In this passage, Jesus connects salvation with behavior…how you pray and how you treat others. The forgiveness of sins was available prior to the cross…and this forgiveness was behavior related…not unconditional! Doesn't forgiveness of sins equal salvation…in a qualifying sense? If that is the case, then salvation was available before the cross! And notice that Jesus does not tell people to pray to Him for forgiveness…so that He could then plead their case before some big, mean-old God. Jesus taught that salvation is obtained by a right relationship with God and neighbor! Not by being declared righteous…while continuing to be unrighteous! The terms remain unchanged after the cross! Also, it is helpful to really think about the words of the Lord's Prayer, and not just mindlessly say it with the usual Godbot-like monotone and pauses!