Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Ghost, i think your wasting your time and being led up the garden path by this one. Every question asked of him/her (but i feel its a him) is NEVER answered in a straight forward way. Like i tried to point out to him he hasnt actually answered anything thing yet just keeps spouting rehtoric. I bet he/she is a politician or president of the school debate team!!!

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Why would Gary need to be discredited?

He was an unemployed, pot smoking, insomniac....and,

He has no proof!....and no credibility.

He was offered 36mos....oh the humanity.



Not if you never heard of him

On one hand, you make a case that they would not murder him, but on another hand, you believe they murder a whole plane load.

He could have been silenced long ago...but instead the ptb's are calling all the shots in the British courts, European courts...to stick it to Gary for 70 years.

Do you realize how many would have to been in on your charade?

You contradict yourself when you say they will stop at nothing to silence Gary...but for the last 3 years, Gary has given plenty of interviews.

The evil threats have not worked?

Imagine that.

Evil does what evil does...911 for instance....it just is not as stupid of making a 36mos martyr for the ufo community to use as a rally cry for disclosure.

Come on now,. think logically about the events in Gary's case.

Why would Gary frighten anyone, he has no proof, no names, no photos, no nothing.

So how is Gary a threat to the PtB?

Could it be he is just a hacker who got caught?

Of course not, that would be too simple...right?

Thanks for the kind words as always leeboy.

I guess I get the venom because no one has any facts to back up their wild claims.

I was not going to post here any more, but I could not refuse leeboys invitation....so bring it on:tongue2:

Poor more nuts
 

"I have done all I can do here....at the moment."

You keep on promising and here we are on page 15 and you are still here with much of the same.

Not sure you are the best self appointed defender the ufo community could hope for...
But I would leave each to arrive to his/her conclusion.

It is also quite revealing how you are revelling and reviling at the misfortune of someone who is obviously in difficulties.
:hunter: :dog: :mf_plasmawhore:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I changed my mind...besides...what would this thread be without me?

Y'all would have no one to be angry at anymore.

I am providing a valuable service

I have had Gary's best interest in mind all along.

The ufo community is using Gary, and Gary is using the ufo community...imo.

PC also attempted to use Gary to it's own end.

I found this most disappointing.

Plead out and it is over Gary.

You can put this all behind you.

The sooner you do this, the better you will feel.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Well I have been watching this going round in circles and my conclusion is that murnut you need to find something more positive to spend your time on ,your posts are well writen and you make logical arguments, but the intent?
I believe your enjoying winding Garrys' mum up.
Whom by the way deserves some empathy.
If it was my son I would be stressed and depressed and your not making it any easier.
Your NOT providing a valuble service here .
If you had Garys best interests at heart you would not be winding his mum up.
So peace brother and a little consideration.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I feel bad for Gary's mom.

I feel bad for Gary.

He was offered 36 months...18 in the US, 18 in the UK.

This would all be over now, if Gary would have agreed....and his mom would be happy, and Gary could be getting his life back together.

The best argument I have heard from Gary's side is the extradition treaty issue.

However he has lost these appeals.

I would support a trial, in the States with the time to be served in Britain.

I still think it is foolish to go to trial....but I also concede that this is his right.
Sentencing guidelines are usually longer IF found guilty though.

Plea arrangements can be worked out as to where the time is served, and what type of facility....some are better than others.

Gary has suffered for this, I have no doubt.

I am concerned that his lawyers have either pushed Gary in the direction it has gone, or Gary instructed them to go this way.

Are these "ufo community" connected lawyers?

Might they be pushing an agenda not in Gary's best interest?

I don't know, just asking the question.


I did read that Bill and Kerry had urged Gary to accept the help of Dan Burisch and Marcia McDowell.

Dan has agreed to testify on Gary's behalf about what he saw.

How Dan or Marci would know what Gary saw is beyond me, or how what Gary saw is relevant to case , because it is not....legally speaking.

Thankfully, Gary's lawyers have decline this support I have read.

Another concern of mine is that many of Gary's supporters, don't really have his best interest at heart....even some posting in this thread.

They urge Gary to fight, somehow hoping that Gary's case somehow leads to disclosure.
This won't happen.

The best thing that can happen for Gary is to plead out.

Not many here will concede this fact.

Do the readers agree with me, or disagree with the statement in yellow

Stand up and be counted...if you dare.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Bump.

I can't believe no one wants to respond?

The best thing that can happen for Gary is to plead out.

Not many here will concede this fact.

Do the readers agree with me, or disagree with the statement in yellow

Stand up and be counted...if you dare.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

murnut
could YOU please stop to post?

you totally take any worth off this thread!:thumbdown:


I recommend the forum gods to close this thread partially.
It's an empty shell now - with all the senseless murnut posts!


Only Gary's mother, Kerry and Bill shall be able to post something,
so this thread gets informative again!:mad3:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Thanks for the kind words as always....but I choose to reply when addressed.

Any thoughts on the question I posed?

Please don't try to make this thread about me.

I really don't mind being attacked for my opinion, but would prefer to address something actually relevant to the thread topic.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

British law does not allow for plea agreements the way American law does, murnut. It's a pretty alien concept. Justice doesn't happen behind closed doors here.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Thank you Ghost...now maybe I understand why so many are confused...plea agreements are the norm here.

And it is not behind closed doors.....both sides are present....the agreement is written.

The judge must approve...which happens 99% of the time.

Is this really true?????

No plea agreements in the UK????

I find this hard to believe.

I will research

Thank-you again Ghost.

PS...Aren't jury's behind closed doors, or are there no jury's in England?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain

United States

See also: Federal Sentencing Guidelines

Plea bargaining is a significant part of the criminal justice system in the United States; the vast majority of criminal cases in the United States are settled by plea bargain rather than by a jury trial[6][7]. Plea bargains are subject to the approval of the court, and different States and jurisdictions have different rules. The Federal Sentencing Guidelines are followed in federal cases and have been created to ensure a standard of uniformity in all cases decided in the federal courts.

snip

Other common law jurisdictions

In some common law jurisdictions, such as England and Wales and the Australian state of Victoria, plea bargaining is permitted only to the extent that the prosecutors and the defense can agree that the defendant will plead guilty to some charges and the prosecutor will drop the remainder. The courts in these jurisdictions have made it plain that they will always decide what the appropriate penalty is to be. No bargaining takes place over the penalty.

Ghost,

You seem to indicate that the UK system was better, but based on the evidence, I see little difference.

I would argue that it is better to have the penalty up for bargaining as well.

Care to explain the "behind closed door" comment???......if you can:wink2:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

"Care to explain the "behind closed door" comment???......if you can"

Essentially what I meant was that there still has to be a trial (with a jury), not some backroom agreement.

p.s. wikipedia really isn't a very good source for research!

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

"You seem to indicate that the UK system was better" - marginallly; not that it is saying much.

The judicial system (or more correctly the legal system) has nothing whatsoever to do with serving justice - in any country on the planet.

Commercial law is at the root of all types of law that are practiced, including criminal law.

Why do murderers get only 10 years but if you steal the crown jewels you get 30?

Because the person who was murdered represented a revenue stream (taxes, labour, etc) that has been cut short, so the murderer is punished for bringing a revenue stream to a premature end, and your life is worth less than the crown jewels, so the murderer is punished less severely than the thief.

Commerce is the 'philosophical' basis of the entire legal system.

Also, the legal system can only work by deception. People only engage in it because they are deceived into thinking they have to. Every lawyer and judge is acting fraudulently (which is criminal) when they entice people into their system.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Wiki was the best I could do at the moment.

I agree that wiki is not the be all end all.

But bringing the line of reasoning back to Gary, is it not better for Gary to know exactly what the penalty is, rather than leave it up to a judge?

And also, what is the point of a trial, once one pleads guilty?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

And what system of justice do you propose?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

"And also, what is the point of a trial, once one pleads guilty? "

Sorry, I meant it still has to go to court. I shouldn't argue late at night! :sleep_1:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

To begin with: one that doesn't operate by deception as a rule; that would be a pretty good start, I think.
But this is a much bigger question for a different discussion. I mentioned it because you seem to be very hung up on legality. I thought I should inform you that the entire profession is based on fraud - it is a criminal organisation - organised crime in other words.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/US-extradition/

Sign the above petition and this will help to change the extradition laws to te U.S.

http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/p...pictureid=4971

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

The deception in legal systems is what exactly?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

The deception is vast! 'Capitis Diminutio Maxima' is something everyone should know about.
Take a look at this site:

http://www.thinkfree.ca/

Watch the free movies. Be prepared to spend some hours watching these and taking it all in.
The guy is based in Canada but there are British, American and other sections. Most of the laws of our countries are fairly similar, just tweaked slightly in each, but based on the same principles - so they can all be fought in similar ways.

You could also look at:

http://www.thetruthwillout.com/common_law.html

http://www.thetruthwillout.com/credit_cards.html

This is a very good book:
http://www.freedomfiles.org/mary-Book.pdf


Maybe you could find some template letters for dealing with the next speeding ticket you get, so you don't have to pay it!

Similar principles for dealing with credit cards can be used in dealing with mortgages - but this is much more risky simply because it is a lot of debt that the banks really want you to be lumbered with - they would probably use every dirty, legal or otherwise, tactic against you if you were to fight them regarding your mortgage.

Like I said previously, the legal system is all about commerce, so the scam that is the monetary system is tied in very closely. The money that is 'lent' to you for credit cards or mortgages doesn't actually exist (it is numbers on a screen taken from one column and put into another - literally only that) and yet you have to pay it back with interest or with your house (real wealth) if you don't keep up with repayments.

You might want to look up 'indentured servitude'.

Anyway, this is all off topic.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

And what do you propose in place of a legal system?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Hi to all
Firstly to correct any misconseption I am not Gary's mother, she never posted here as far as I know. But you are not wrong to assume a connection Gary's parent are close friends of ours.

Here is the latest news from Free Gary site
Gary McKinnon's extradition Judicial Review hearing is due on Tuesday 20th January 2009 - the same day that George Bush officially hands over to Barack Obama as US President

By fg on November 28, 2008 7:50 PM | No Comments

Gary McKinnon's lawyers, led by Karen Todner, have succeeded, despite fierce opposition from the UK Government (represented by a barrister working for the Treasury Solicitor) in getting a Court Date for the oral Judicial Review of the decision to extradite Gary to the USA - Tuesday 20th January 2009


It seems that Hugo Keith QC, acting for the Treasury Solicitor argued against any sort of Judicial Review, and then wasted even more public money on legal fees, and slowed down the already overburdened Court system, by getting a hearing in front of a Judge, to try to overturn Karen Todner's rejection of the date which he was demanding, the 2nd December (i.e. next Tuesday),


Is it just a coincidence, or are the officials who set the Court Dates waving a couple of fingers at President George W. Bush and his apparatchiki and henchmen, who officially hand over power to President-elect Barack Obama on the same day, Tuesday 20th January 2009 ?


Demonstrations in support of Gary McKinnon - US Embassy and Office of Tony Blair, Grosvenor Square, London, Friday 5th December 2008, 5pm - 7pm


There will be further demonstrations in support of Gary McKinnon, who is facing imminent extradition to the United States of America, rather than facing a UK court, for his alleged computer hacking activities over 6 years ago.
It is intended that a letter to President-Elect Barack Obama will be handed in to the Embassy of the United States of America in London.
Date: Friday 5th December
Time: 5 pm -7pm
Location:
Embassy of the United States of America,
24 Grosvenor Square
London
W1A 2LQ
Media Contacts: - being arranged - email info@FreeGary.org.uk
Location Maps:
Map on the US Embassy website
Streetmap.co.uk map
http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog....o_pen1_300.jpg
At some convenient time during this demonstration, a letter will also be handed in to the Office of Tony Blair. The former British Prime Minister, who is now a Middle East Peace envoy, and involved with charities and lucrative public speaking, is likely to be involved, behind the scenes, in UK and US foreign policy and security discussions.
The Office of Tony Blair, which costs over half a million pounds a year in rent alone, is situated nearby at the north east corner of Grosvenor Square, in the historic John Adams house, at number 9 Grosvenor Square, on the corner with Brook Street and Duke Street. John Adams was the first United States Minister to the Court of St. James's i.e. Ambassador, and the second President of the United States. He lived there from 1785 to 1788.
http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog...._Blair_300.jpg
Some advice about demonstrations in central London:


Continue reading Demonstrations in support of Gary McKinnon - US Embassy and Office of Tony Blair, Grosvenor Square, London, Friday 5th December 2008, 5pm - 7pm.


You are :welcomeani:to come if you can

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

You've watched all the videos and taken it all in, have you?? And this is your response, is it??


When did I ever say get rid of the legal system? - I didn't. I said the legal system that we have is completely and utterly corrupt.

What we need is one that isn't completely and utterly corrupt. Nowhere in my argument did I say get rid of the legal system.


If you are going to post inane questions like this and continue to make inane statements it is not going to be worth my time to respond.

I don't mind arguing with you, murnut, but make it an argument worth having.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I checked your links and found them to be not very compelling.

I won't debate how not to pay credit card debt or speeding tickets.

I think we should stay on topic....

By the way, I came across the case of Brian Howes and his wife Kerry.

Are you all familiar with it?
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsrelea...130phoenix.htm

Brian and his wife also face extradition.

Compared to Brian, Gary is a saint

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

"I checked your links and found them to be not very compelling."

There were several hours' worth of videos on the first site and you replied in less than 90 minutes after I posted the message. But you didn't find them very compelling...
You obvioisly did a lot of research in the 90 minutes, didn't you, murnut?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Think Free?

No video's there for me...I guess because I am not a member

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

This is rich....
Try to NOT make this thread about YOU would be a good start!!!!!:zip:
Try NOT to repeat yourself would be a good practice !!!!!:zip:
Try give others space to express themselves before you pounce!!!!!:zip:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Here you go, murnut. It's under the main menu. You don't have to join to view them.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Pick one video...I will watch it and give you my review.

Fair enough?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Why don't you just watch them all? I'm not really interested in a review from you; I've seen them and I have my own opinion about them.

This is for your education and enlightenment, murnut. What are you afraid of, your current world view collapsing (where everything legal is moral and good and everything illegal is immoral and bad, lol, and the govenment is good and just wants what's best for you)?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

* well put.:thumb_yello:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Current world view collapsing?

That happened long ago.

I will watch all the video's..(already seen the masked guy) just as soon as you read all of my 5800 posts at OMF...fair enough?

You don't know me or what my world view is, until you do.

To make it easier on you, just read this thread

http://lucianarchy.proboards21.com/i...ead=288&page=1

I started it a year ago.

But this discussion is off topic here.

If you want to start a thread about what kind of legal system you want, be my guest.

Better hurry though, time is short here

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

guardian.co.uk, Tuesday December 2 2008 12.21 GMT
Hacker in final showdown to avoid extradition to USBriton accused of biggest hack in US military history wins delay in judicial review

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...adition-hacker

The British man accused of hacking into US military computers will have his final showdown in the UK courts next month.

After almost four years of fighting extradition to the US as a result of what prosecutors have called "the biggest military computer hack of all time", Londoner Gary McKinnon will face a judicial review conducted by the high court on January 20.

McKinnon – who used the online name Solo – is accused of hacking into computers belonging to the Pentagon, Nasa and US armed forces in raids conducted between 2001 and 2002.

Prosecutors say he shut down thousands of machines and caused up to $700,000 worth of damage, while the 42-year-old claims he was searching for evidence of UFOs.

Over the course of the case, defence lawyers argued that McKinnon will face unduly harsh punishment for his actions and should instead face trial in the UK, since the alleged hacking attacks were conducted from a house in north London.

By the time the decision is made, it will be almost seven years since McKinnon ended his activities. During that time a succession of arguments have been made against his removal – including that he faces up to 60 years in prison or detention at Guantánamo Bay, and that he should receive leniency because he suffers from Aspberger's syndrome.

Such protestations have so far proved unsuccessful, however, with a string of decisions against him, including rulings by the law lords and the home secretary. McKinnon's last chance to avoid removal to the US will come in next month's judicial review.

Prosecutors acting for the government argued that McKinnon's review should take place today but his lawyers succeeded in pushing it back until the new year.

The news brought cheer to some campaigners who see the date as an auspicious sign. Coinciding with the inauguration of Barack Obama as president, supporters at the Free Gary website suggested the date could be the equivalent of "waving a couple of fingers" at the Bush administration.

In recent months campaigners – including former home secretary David Blunkett have argued that McKinnon should be tried in the UK because of his medical condition.

His supporters are hopeful that they can sway the final judgment, particularly after Gordon Brown spoke about the case publicly for the first time last week and hinted that McKinnon may not end up in a US jail.

During prime minister's questions last week, Brown was asked about McKinnon's situation and said that existing conventions would enable him to serve any prison sentence in Britain, rather than in the US.

"The UK and the US are signatories to the Council of Europe convention on the transfer of sentenced persons, which enables a person found guilty in the United States of America to serve their sentence in the UK," he told MPs.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Poor Gary Mckinnon.

Hacked into a private government system, got caught, and doesn't feel as if there should be any punishment for it.

I'm really torn on this one. The U.S. government lies to us, keeps secrets, and may actually be working on plans to harm us. If what he said he found is true (no evidence beyond his word, if my memory serves me correctly - is there no "cut and paste" function in the UK?), we deserve to know. In that sense, he could be considered a freedom fighter.

But, whether one considers the U.S. government bad or good, governments have a right to operate private systems as they relate to defense and national security, and prosecute those who knowingly violate them. Mckinnon knew what he was doing was illegal, and chose to do it anyway. Had he hacked into a hospital database and began collecting private medical information, or hacked into a credit card company to review people's purchasing habits, we would be outraged. It is not hard for me to understand the government's anger on this one, despite the fact that the information he claims to have seen should be in the public arena. It is a tough issue.

He better thank his lucky stars he is from the UK, because I could see the Bush administration pushing for a charge of "treason" if he were from the U.S. - and we all know what that could mean.

I don't really worry about his future though. Given the crime, if he cooperates with the U.S. government, chances are he could walk away with no jail time whatsoever, or a short sentence with legal wrangling that would only last a few years. He is now too high profile to kill, and chances are, someone out in Hollywood is just waiting to buy his story - if not Hollywood, Baliwood, or somewhere - he will end up getting paid in the end.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

"Hacked into a private government system, got caught, and doesn't feel as if there should be any punishment for it."

Mis-representing the facts is the best that you can do is it, historycircus??

This is not the issue whatsoever. Gary's position is not that there shouldn't be any punishment for it; it is that the alleged criminal activity took place on British soil and if he were to be charged with a criminal offence it should be under British law in a British court room. There is absolutely no justification for extraditing him to a foreign country to face "justice" there instead of being tried in the country in which the alleged offence occurred.

The Extradition Act 2003 does not require the prosecution (the American authorities, essentially) to provide any evidence against UK citizens at their hearing. That is, there is no longer any requirement for prima facie evidence. This violates centuries' worth of principles of law and civil and human rights.

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?

The Extradition Act 2003 constitutes treason by the British authorities - favouring the demands of foreign powers over the rights of British citizens.
The act came into force on January 1st 2004 BUT it was made retroactive (which is a highly unsual move) to make it apply to Gary McKinnon among others. Making a law retroactive also violates centuries' worth of legal principles & civil/human rights, etc.



"Had he hacked into a hospital database and began collecting private medical information, or hacked into a credit card company to review people's purchasing habits, we would be outraged."

This statement is simply an attempt to muddy the waters. He did not do either of these things and they are completely different in nature to what Gary was doing (and I suspect you mention these two examples to evoke some righteous indignation in anyone reading your post - to have that indignation associated with Gary).
The government, however, continuously does these things for the reasons you described - and yes, the public should be outraged by it!


"He better thank his lucky stars he is from the UK, because I could see the Bush administration pushing for a charge of "treason" if he were from the U.S. - and we all know what that could mean."

He has actually been threatened with being 'fried' by the US authorities. In Britain his actions would have gotten him (if found guilty) six months' community service. In America he is facing 70 years in prison - and he has been threatened with being 'fried'. This alone - the considerable mismatch in punishment and the threat to his life - should have been enough to prevent any question even arising of Gary being extradited. But then the British authorities are committing treason so we shouldn't expect anyone to actually be trying to serve justice here, should we?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I will watch all the video's..(already seen the masked guy) just as soon as you read all of my 5800 posts at OMF...fair enough?

What on earth are you on, dude? Why would anyone want to be educated in all things murnut?? Educating yourself in the machinations of the legal system that you are under would be pretty valuable. Educating myself in all things murnut would not serve any useful purpose.

What do you have against learning about the legal system? Why do you refuse to take it upon yourself to learn how to deflect and defeat their fraudulent activity? It is for your own education and enlightenment.
What education or enlightenment would I gain in reading all 5800 of your posts? Do you consider yourself that important?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Haha,,,surely The Ghost has never misrepresented the facts.
The damage took place in America


Not really...hacking for what ever reason is wrong.

When the ufo community justifies these illegal actions, it is no different than any group justifying it's illegal actions.

Now who is evoking some righteous indignation?????

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

You made personal statements about me based no knowledge.

On face value, which is the same that you judge me on, your video's propose the net effect of anarchy.

Try following the advice of those videos, and see how far that "enlightenment" takes you.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

"Now who is evoking some righteous indignation?????"
I'm talking about legal consequences for criminal activities. We do not have the death penalty in Britain (except for treason - so the people who supported the Extradition Act 2003 are skating on pretty thin ice). The point being that when it is threatened our normal legal procedure is to not allow the extradition to go ahead. Normal legal procedures have long since been thrown out the window in Gary McKinnon's case, though.


"The damage took place in America"
This is irrelevant. The alleged crime took place in another country.


"hacking for what ever reason is wrong"
There you go again with your childish, naive argument that legal things are good and moral and illegal things are bad and immoral.
The examples historycircus cited are substantially different to what Gary did.


"it is no different than any group justifying it's illegal actions"
Do you think Nelson Mandela should still be in prison for terrorism? I could go on with other examples but I would like an answer to this particular one.


Do you think the actions of the Nazis or Communists were okay because they were legal?


If the US government made it illegal to even ask questions about UFOs/ETs would you stop asking because your government 'knows best'?