Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I believe you are mistaken....Govts are not for the rights of the people...they are about control.

There will always be information that is kept from public view, some of it for our own good.

Most will disagree with the above...hell I would have disagreed with it not too long ago.

But just where does one draw the line fighting evil with evil.

Slippery slope where the ends justify the means.

Your theory would seem to imply that it is okay to steal from the rich to give to the poor?

Who defines who is rich.

The UFO community should not sell its soul, become what they despise in the name of disclosure.

Nice try...I applaud the effort to try to tie this to slavery.

To make your case here, you would have to admit that all forms of govt are wrong, any govt, any rule imposes slavery.

The difference between those that opposed slavery and Gary is that the abolitionist felt so strongly about what they were doing was right, they stood and were counted by serving jail time, and even facing death.

Gary has chickened out for his cause.

Gary has no proof of what he saw....I maintain he saw nothing...the biggest secret in the history of the world was not, has not ever been hooked up to the internet.

Truly if he had actually seen anything, you would have never had heard his name.

He may have been looking for proof I don't doubt.

But since he got caught, he has done nothing but use the ufo community because he does not want to face the music.

And the ufo community is using Gary as well, as way to force disclosure.

As near as I can tell, in my opinion, Gary is a loser for not pleading, and the ufo community is a loser for using a loser to promote it's agenda.

There are real heroes in the ufo community, Gary is self imposed pawn.

He is worthy of pity, and that is about it.


PS I have no problem with him serving his time in Britain, if any.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT IS>
wrong... governments are supposed to represent the rights of the people. when they don't (like withhold existential information) we have the right to oppose their oppression. exactly what gary did, therefor his actions are justified.

wrong.... there will not ALWAYS be information withheld from the public. transparency is the way of the future because transparency of information ensures equality. if you need me to elaborate on this point i can.

wrong... not a slippery slope argument. very straight forward. when an injustice is perpetrated by our government, we have a right to combat that injustice by any non-violent means necessary.

wrong... my argument does NOT imply justification for stealing from rich to give to poor. my argument dictates the right to take back what has been stolen from us.

wrong... the ufo community is not selling its soul. it is standing up for what is right. i will state the argument AGAIN. all humans have a right to equal access of existential information. in searching for that information, gary or any other sentient being is justified in their non-violent search.

wrong... in making my case i do not have to prove that all forms of govt are wrong. it is only necessary to show that their particular action of withholding existential information is wrong. therefor justifying gary's search for said infromation.

wrong... the only difference between gary and the abolitionist is that one was a physical slave, and the other a mental/existential slave. both have risked harm to self for sake of greater good.

who cares... there is no point in what gary saw. the point is his motivation for action. what he did or did not see is totally irrelevant.

subjective... the rest of your argument is subjective drivel. the usual route taken by those who fail at responding to an objective argument.

i can continue to squash your arguments, or we can watch the rest of the world series of poker final table.

Gary's actions were just. Express this fact to Mr. Podesta. http://change.gov/page/s/contact

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Far be it for me to rain on your fairy tale view of the world.

Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different.

Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not.

There is no equality, only equality of assimilation.

Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control.

Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything.

There a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.


So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Murnut, surely you are not trying to imply that computer hacking is "evil"?

You couldn't possibly be putting it on the same level as torture or genocide or any other number of "evil" acts.

Forgive my stupidity if I have misunderstood you....

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

WOW, DID I STRIKE A NERVE?

"Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different."
MY POINT EXACTLY... INFORMATION IS SUPPOSED TO BE FREE FOR ALL, BUT IT"S NOT. THEREFOR, GARY'S ACTIONS ARE JUST.

"Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not."
STATING TRANSPARENCY ONLY WORKS IN A PERFECT WORLD ONLY SERVES TO PROVE ITS SUPERIORITY OVER THE LACK THEREOF.

"There is no equality, only equality of assimilation."
RU SERIOUS. BESIDES NOT RELATING AT ALL TO THE GM CASE, EQUALITY JUST IS. IF WE ARE ALL 1 (or equal parts to the whole), THEN WE JUST IS.

"Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control."
GOVERNMENTS HAVE NO RIGHT TO WITHHOLD EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION. IF WE ARE ALL EQUAL PARTS OF A WHOLE, THEN WE AS INDIVIDUALS HAVE AN EQUAL RIGHT TO THE INFORMATION RELATIVE TO THAT WHOLE. WE ARE NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROPERTY OR SLAVE. WE ARE NOT OBJECTS TO BE CONTROLLED. WE ARE TO EQUALLY CO-EXIST.

"Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything."
DUDE YOU NEED TO TAKE LOGIC 101. YES, GOVERNMENTS STEAL FROM US EVERYDAY. THEY STEAL OUR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION AND WE WANT IT BACK... IT'S ACUALY NATURAL THAT THE UFO COMMUNITY ASK FOR AND DEMAND FOR THAT WHICH IS RIGHTFULLY THEIRS. (you sound a little disgruntled with the ufo community. but thats just my opinion.)

THE REST IS MORE IRRATIONAL DRIVEL THAT MAINTAINS NO RELATION WHATSOEVER TO THE UNJUST ARREST OF GARRY McKINNON. CLASSIC SOPHISTRY. ARE YOU A LAWYER, FED, OR SOMEONE WHO JUST CANT ADMITT WHEN HE/SHE IS WRONG.

ACTUALLY READ WHAT MURNUT WRITES AFTER HIS LAST QUOTE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AN EXISTENTAIL ARGUMENT RELEVANT TO THE JUSTIFICATION OF GARY'S ACTIONS. (here is the rest of his confusion.)


"here a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.


So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me."[/QUOTE]


ARE YOU KIDDING. NO PROOF TO U.S COMPLICITY IN WITHHOLDING INFORMATION REGARDING UFO"S??? ARE YOU REALLY GOING STATE THAT??HOW MANY DOCUMENTS DO YOU WANT??? REVERTING BACK TO THAT POSITION, IS TANTAMOUNT TO A COLLEGE GRADUATE GOING BACK TO 1ST GRADE.

GARY IS A SLAVE WHO GOT CAUGHT TRYING TO FLEE HIS SELF-APPOINTED MASTER. WE ARE FELLOW SLAVES WHO SHOULD STAND IN SUPPORT FOR GARY>

WHOEVER YOU ARE. YOU ARE WELL DIS-INFORMED. AND YOUR LAST STATEMENT IMPLYS THAT YOUR LYING.


gary's actions were just. contact Mr Podesta at http://change.gov/page/s/contact

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Everyone has their own opinions on such matters;mine being i think it's a harsh treatment -he's probably already served a life sentence through worry and anxiety.O.K. he's 'done wrong'-i feel this is blown way out of proportion-and where's human compasssion?-This lad's beng tortured for essentially being found out and telling the truth;people talk about setting examples to the younger sector of the populace?-well, i feel the govts. on both sides of 'the pond' aren't setting any precedents for civilised behaviour.Where have the qualities formally known as compassion and understanding vanished to?
With this in mind i find it astonishing that we can call the west a democracy and a civilised community when the very act of running it is based on fear.
He owned up to his activities from the outset and he wishes to serve a sentence for it-now, i think that alone should command at least a little justice in terms of where his trial should be held-it's not asking for the crown jewels!
As far as Jacqui Smith stands, i find her actions highly distasteful as a 'labour' minister and a citizen of the U.K.
She hasn't a clue on the morals of socialism.
Apologies for any negative vibe from this post but everyone has their opinion and i'm with a fair trial in his own country.
it appears that the 'fear factory' is still in full production from how it currently stands.:thumbdown:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

My fault for not being clear.

The ends do not justify the means.

We lose our moral authority when we rationalize what we do, in response to what we perceive has been done to us.

Hacking may or may not be "evil"...but from what I have read from some of Gary's supporters, escalation of crimes in the name of disclosure, is something that is being considered as "justified"

Do you understand my concern?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Good luck, everybody, arguing with Murnut! lol

This guy clearly just doesn't get it. He equates computer hacking with evil, for crying out loud! And he probably thinks we should take his arguments seriously.

Murnut, you really shouldn't confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal, and you shouldn't confuse legal and illegal with lawful and unlawful.

The ends DO justify the means to a certain extent. Every civil right we have was once illegal. Trade unions, civil rights organisation, etc, etc, FOUGHT (physically usually) with police and the authorities to obtain the freedom and rights we enjoy today.

Governments are not benevolent (even the democratic [sic] ones). They do not bestow rights upon their people. Their raison d'être is control and they are constantly trying to tighten the noose around our necks - and are succeeding.

Murnut, you appear to be equating anyone who stands up to the PTB as evil; any action taken against them is evil. Those who stand up to them are as bad as they are. Are you serious, dude??

How many wars has Gary McKinnon started?
How many innocent civilians has he killed through sanctions?
How many people has Gary used as human guinea pigs for experimentation?
How many people (children in particular) have been kidnapped, tortured, raped and ritually sacrificed by Gary?


You imply that he or anyone who stands up to the PTB is evil. What is your definition of evil, please??

NOTHING that ANY of US could EVER do will EVER come close to even being compared in the same sentence to the EVIL that has been and is being committed by the PTB.

Murnut, I think you need a period of serious re-evaluation of your point of view.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Where in the law does it say all information is owed to the public?




I am missing your point here


In a perfect world ..yes...this world.... no.

The people have no right to information.

Show me where it says we do please?


I am extremely disappointed with the ufo community.

Again, there is no right to know National security issues.

You are entitled to disagree.



You are part of the reason why the ufo community is not taken seriously.

You and your kind are damaging serious efforts for disclosure.

Most of the ufo cover up whistle blower testimonies are pure disinfo.

They contradict each other for God's sake.

Yes, the phenomena is real.

Yes, there is a cover up.

Beyond that, there is no proof to what is actually being covered up.

But going back to GM....he and his supporters has misrepresented that facts of his case.

That's lying.

So if he lies about this, what else is he lying about?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I don't claim that to stand up is wrong...but is that really the message Gary is sending?

He stood up to the point that he decided he did not like the outcome of his actions.

To call him a hero is a disgrace to all the serious researchers.

Anointing Gary as a hero has set back the credibility of serious researchers by years.

================================================== ========


How many here pay their taxes?

Nobody likes to pay them, one might say that we fund the PtB.

So should we just stop paying are taxes because it is "justified"

Or should we work within the law to reduce the burden on us?

Which way is more credible do you think?

Re: Poor Gary McKinnon
 

Really, what have you read in US news about this pending expedition?:smoke:

Re: Poor Gary McKinnon
 

Enough to realize that most of what Gary and his supporters say is FALSE

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I'm not looking for an argument but if you have any links I'd appreciate reading them, because the only news I've heard on this matter is outside the US.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...ciTech_4306168



Brit Hacker Loses U.S. Extradition Appeal
LONDON, July 30, 2008(AP) Some call it the biggest hack of military computers; perhaps it was just a big embarrassment.

Gary McKinnon — accused of breaking into military and NASA computers in what he claims was a search for UFOs, allegedly causing nearly $1 million in damage — has lost his appeal for extradition to the United States.

McKinnon, 42, an unemployed computer administrator, allegedly broke into 97 computers belonging to the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, and Department of Defense from a bedroom in a north London home.

His attacks between 2001 and 2002 allegedly shut down the Army district responsible for protecting Washington, and cleared logs from computers at the Naval Weapons Station Earle in New Jersey that tracks the location and battle-readiness of Navy ships.

That last attack, coming immediately after the Sept. 11, knocked out the station's entire network of 300 computers. NASA and privately owned computers also were damaged, prosecutors said, putting the total cost of his online activities at $900,000.

At the time of his indictment, prosecutor Paul McNulty said McKinnon pulled off "the biggest hack of military computers ever — at least ever detected."

In his defense, McKinnon, known online as SOLO, said he was trying to expose security weaknesses and uncover evidence of UFOs.

"I was a man obsessed," McKinnon wrote on The Guardian newspaper's Web site last year, describing a year spent trying to break into U.S. military systems: eight hours a day at a computer in his girlfriend's aunt's house while unkempt, drinking beer and smoking marijuana.

In interviews, he claimed that his hacking uncovered photographic proof of alien spacecraft and the names and ranks of "non-terrestrial officers."

Prosecutors accuse him of deliberately trying to intimidate the U.S. government by tearing through their networks. They pointed to a note written by McKinnon — and left on an Army computer — attacking U.S. foreign policy as "akin to government-sponsored terrorism."

"It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year," he wrote. "I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels."

McKinnon was caught in 2002 after some of the software used in the attacks was traced back to his girlfriend's e-mail account. The U.S. sought his extradition, a move his lawyer Claire Anderson claimed Wednesday was motivated by the government's desire to "make an example" of a man who humbled officials in Washington by hacking into their systems using off-the-shelf office software and a dial-up modem.

Aspects of American cyber-security had been shown up as "really shameful," with some computers not even password-protected, said Graham Cluley, a security consultant with Sophos PLC.

He said the United States appeared to be pursuing McKinnon in an effort to flexing its legal muscle to the hacking community, which has watched the case with interest.

"The overriding message is: You shouldn't mess with American government and military computers, particularly right after Sept. 11," Cluley said.

McKinnon's lawyers had hoped to hold any trial in Britain, saying he could be dragged before a military tribunal or even end up at Guantanamo Bay.

In their appeals, they said McKinnon was warned by U.S. officials that he would not be allowed to serve any part of his sentence in Britain unless he agreed to cooperate with his extradition. That, they argued, amounted to an unlawful threat and abuse of process.

Not so, Britain's House of Lords said Wednesday. Lord Brown, writing for Britain's highest court, said plea bargaining could only be called an abuse of process "in a wholly extreme case."

"This is far from being such a case," he said.

While the decision exhausts McKinnon's legal options in Britain, Anderson said she would appeal to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France. She said British authorities had agreed to keep McKinnon in Britain for at least two weeks to allow his lawyers to prepare their application.

"If that fails, then it's off to jail in America for 60 years," McKinnon told the British Broadcasting Corp. "Rapists and murderers and real terrorists get less."

Should McKinnon be extradited, he would face trial in Virginia and New Jersey on eight charges of computer fraud.

Each charge potentially carries a sentence of up to 10 years in prison and $250,000 in fines. However, U.S. sentencing guidelines would likely recommend a much lighter sentence.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

murnut do you have a problem with following simple logic? i'll try to keep it as simple as possible for you. only cause i like you:wink2:

BASIS FOR FREEDOM OF EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION
PREMIS 1. ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL.
PREMIS 2. EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE GIVES ADVANTAGE TO THE KNOWER. (I.E. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER)

CONCLUSION 1. ALL EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL HUMANS.

CONCLUSION 2. GARY IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SEARCH FOR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION.

IF AGREE THEN SEND ARGUMENT TO MR PODESTA AT http://change.gov/page/s/contact

IF NOT, THEN PLEASE IDENTIFY A FALSE PREMISE OR FAILURE OF PRIMES LEADING TO CONCLUSION

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

THANKS GHOST. I NORMALLY WOULDN'T GET INTO ARGUMENTS WITH SOMEONE INCAPABLE OF RATIONAL DIALOG. BUT AFTER READING CLOSE TO 50 ANTI GARY POSTS (here and at open minds) I FELT IT NECESSARY TO PUT AN END TO HIS NONSENSE. MOST OF HIS STATEMENTS ARE COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THE FUNDAMENTAL POINTS SURROUNDING GARY'S HISTORICAL CASE. HOPE YOU CONTINUE TO CORRECT OUR FRIEND UNTIL HE CONCEEDS.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

i wonder if Bill & Kerry are still helping him out ???

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

As far as i know they're trying but Gary and his lawyer have opted for the asperger's option-i think Kerry and Bill wanted him to try the approach of the essence of discovering hidden info.and hitting on a raw nerve with the american govt.approach-i'm sure they will provide an update soon on this.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

i think they are??? but so are many within the ufo community. (disclosure project, exopolitics group, eceti james gilliland.) but everyone needs to chip in and write to the obama transition team. http://change.gov/page/s/contact

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Ross hemsworth on 'now that's weird':
There is finally some LIGHT at the end of the tunnel for Gary...

I have just heard back from my own local MP who says that many "front bench Conservatives" are outraged by the current UK/US extradition treaty and are calling for a debate in the house to have this one sided document changed! There seems to be a growing tide of MP's who feel that it does not protect UK citizens - and about bloody time too! We have been saying that for ages! Let's hope finally, Parliament gets its act together and stops the extradition of Gary McKinnon.

Ross
http://www.nowthatsweird.co.uk/news.php?readmore=38

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Your logic is flawed, and is not based in reality of what actually is, and what can actually be.

Fairy tales, just like many insider "releases"

Ever wonder why they target the ufo community only?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

UFO vigilantism hurts the serious research.

Interesting that vigilantism has been a huge failure.

Ya know why?

Vigilantes are not taken seriously

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Keep trying

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Example of the ufo community using Gary as a pawn to push their agenda before of Gary's best interests.

It is embarrassing

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Why on earth would the Obama team be sympathetic with someone who hacked into military computers? Do you think a President Obama could possibly say it's okay for people to hack into secrets that they have no intention of releasing?

Nancy

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Premis 1: All humans are not created "equal" on the physical plane
Premis 2: Yes, knowledge can be advantageous

Conclusion 1: "Shoulds" don't work. Life is not fair. Humans always have and always will keep secrets in order to gain advantage. That's just reality.

Conslusion 2: Gary doesn't need a justification to do anything, he only has to accept the consequences of his actions if he's caught by someone who is able to control him because they are stronger or badder than he is.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Now THAT'S some encouraging news. hopefully great news for Gary, but also for the rest of us. It's about time our feeble minded politicians stood up and stopped kowtowing to America...thanks for giving us this information:thumb_yello: I really believe that hearing hopeful news can strengthen us on an energetic level.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

well, i am sure, this whole thing
has been very hard on Gary,
and, his family --
there should NOT be secrets !!!

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Or income tax, or electric bills.....

Gary would have served his time by now, and would have been a free man for the last 3 years.

He bears the responsibility for his own actions

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

You're right murnut, there shouldn't be income tax. There is no law specifically requiring citizens of the UK or US to pay income tax.

It only goes to the central banks, anyway; it doesn't go towards paying for any services. Other taxes (property taxes, for example and council taxes) pay for our services, as well as VAT.

As for electricity bills: if the free energy technology that Gary was looking for was released, there would be no electricity bills!

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Full agreement that was the main concern he had believe it or not-it's not so much the ET craft and entire UFO cachee it's the free nergy that has the govt. rumbled.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

hi nancy. your logic is flawed. all humans are created equal. this is a foundational assumption that is necessary to avoid discrimination/oppression. inside your assumption that "humans are not created equal on the physical plane", anyone or group could justify their oppression over another. hence, equal rights. this is basic human rights stuff. human rights 101.

"shoulds" do work as natural extensions of premises. again logic 101. conclusions follow premises. your "humans always will..." and "that's just reality" is literal nonsense. the fact that there are injustices doesn't make it right. i made a rational justification for gary's actions. you respond with subjective nonsense. inside your ABSURD reasoning "... accept the consequences of his actions because he was caught by someone who is stronger" ARE YOU KIDDING???? your reasoning has just supported every fascist dictatorship that has oppressed humans for eons. and you've done so with the same level of intelligence, NONE. i would first go take logic 101, so you could actually debate from an objective perspective. then maybe you could respond appropriately to the argument.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

interesting how my logic is flawed, but you dont even address one of my points. our reality is based on what "can be". our reality is based on uncertainty, thus our reality is based on what CAN BE. quantum physics 101. if your going to debate my argument, then address the points. but you can't so you'll continue to spout nonsense. and i'll continue to correct you.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

the obama team should be sympathetic to gary's case, because it represents a response (by gary) to an injustice perpetrated by factions within the U.S govn. yes, a president or any other rational/honest being should justify gary's actions for the reasons stated in the argument below. you know, the argument you tried to refute, but failed.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

i'll state it one more time for nancy and murnut.


BASIS FOR FREEDOM OF EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION
PREMIS 1. ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL.
PREMIS 2. EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE GIVES ADVANTAGE TO THE KNOWER. (I.E. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER)

CONCLUSION 1. ALL EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL HUMANS.

CONCLUSION 2. GARY IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SEARCH FOR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION.

IF AGREE THEN SEND ARGUMENT TO MR PODESTA AT http://change.gov/page/s/contact

IF NOT, THEN PLEASE IDENTIFY A FALSE PREMISE OR FAILURE OF PRIMES LEADING TO CONCLUSION

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

murnut,

Thank you for providiing the link and summary. Being familiar with the govt, military, current administration and legal system I think I'll wait to see if this trial is really public and view the evidence presented before I make up my mind.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

1)All humans are equal under the law.

You and Gary want to choose what laws you choose to obey.

Flaw #1


2) Knowledge is power if obtained lawfully, that is if it does not infringe the rights of others.

Knowledge obtained via poisoned fruit is worthless.

The road to disclosure cannot be built on lies.

Flaw #2

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

hi murnut. thank you for responding directly to the argument. but, i still disagree with your position. all humans are NOT created equally "under the law". if this were true, then during the time of legal slavery, slaves and non-slaves would be equal. the law does not make us equal. our nature makes us equal. we are equals apriori (before experience) not after.

YES, gary and i choose to disobey the inhumane practice of sequestering existential information. we are just in doing so because we are all equal, and the sequestering of existential informations negates that equality.

knowledge creates a disparity in power only when it is held in isolation from the whole of humanity. TPTB decided they were above the whole and kept the knowledge from us. this knowledge is rightfully OURS. therefor, any (non-violent) attempt at reclaiming it is just. ghost was spot on when he stated you were confusing the law with "what is right". the knowledge obtained by TPTB is poisoned, because they chose to withhold it from the whole. the road to disclosure is not based on lies, it is based on OUR fundamental right to KNOW our reality.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Believe me Martian...I know what you are saying, I used to feel the same way.

But the ufo community forfeits whatever "moral authority" it has when it attempts to take the law, even a flawed one, into it's own hands.

Whatever benefit comes of this, is tarnished, and will be disregarded by the public at large.

Believe it or not, the ufo community suffers from a lack of credibility.

Taking the "law" into ones own hands hurts the credibility of all of us.

I agree that there is a time and a place to disobey.

But at least have the courage to stand up for what you believe is right..(Gary)

Admittedly, he knew what he did was wrong, but did not think through the possible consequences.

If you want to make the case that he is entitled to look for the hidden knowledge, then I can make a case that he should have only hacked UK military targets.

All those who stood up against slavery and died, are diminished by your comparison to Gary.

They gave the ultimate sacrifice.

Gary has given nothing except cowardice, and my opinion is that he is probably lying, about seeing any Secret info, given the misinformation in the other parts of his defense.

I maintain that the biggest secret in the history of the world was not, is not hooked up to the internet.

He can be your hero.

He is not mine

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

murnut, the ufo community or any human being forfeits nothing when it attempts to search for information that has been stolen from us. paraphrasing Ghost, all human/civil rights movements have been forced to break inhumane laws in order to achieve justice. i am not concerned with Gary admitting his guilt. i would make the same argument against his admittion. And no, you cannot make a case for limiting his search to U.K targets. Whomever witholds existential information from the public is subject to OUR inquiry.

None who stood up against slavery or any other civil/human injustice are diminished by my comparison. they stand beside gary and support his dissent from tyranny. the oppression suffered by slaves differs from our current oppression only by degree, not in kind. they experienced physical and mental oppression. while we experience mental oppression. both forms are oppressive, and both forms deserve our vigilant opposition. you can have your opinions about whether or not gary is lying about what he found. those opinions are irrelevant to my argument.


support gary mckinnon write the obama transition team today
http://change.gov/page/s/contact

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

We disagree Martian