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-   -   Poor Gary Mckinnon (http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=585)

murnut 11-13-2008 10:06 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martian31v (Post 78902)
i'll state it one more time for nancy and murnut.


BASIS FOR FREEDOM OF EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION
PREMIS 1. ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL.
PREMIS 2. EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE GIVES ADVANTAGE TO THE KNOWER. (I.E. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER)

CONCLUSION 1. ALL EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL HUMANS.

CONCLUSION 2. GARY IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SEARCH FOR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION.


1)All humans are equal under the law.

You and Gary want to choose what laws you choose to obey.

Flaw #1


2) Knowledge is power if obtained lawfully, that is if it does not infringe the rights of others.

Knowledge obtained via poisoned fruit is worthless.

The road to disclosure cannot be built on lies.

Flaw #2

martian31v 11-13-2008 10:46 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 79132)
1)All humans are equal under the law.

You and Gary want to choose what laws you choose to obey.

Flaw #1


2) Knowledge is power if obtained lawfully, that is if it does not infringe the rights of others.

Knowledge obtained via poisoned fruit is worthless.

The road to disclosure cannot be built on lies.

Flaw #2

hi murnut. thank you for responding directly to the argument. but, i still disagree with your position. all humans are NOT created equally "under the law". if this were true, then during the time of legal slavery, slaves and non-slaves would be equal. the law does not make us equal. our nature makes us equal. we are equals apriori (before experience) not after.

YES, gary and i choose to disobey the inhumane practice of sequestering existential information. we are just in doing so because we are all equal, and the sequestering of existential informations negates that equality.

knowledge creates a disparity in power only when it is held in isolation from the whole of humanity. TPTB decided they were above the whole and kept the knowledge from us. this knowledge is rightfully OURS. therefor, any (non-violent) attempt at reclaiming it is just. ghost was spot on when he stated you were confusing the law with "what is right". the knowledge obtained by TPTB is poisoned, because they chose to withhold it from the whole. the road to disclosure is not based on lies, it is based on OUR fundamental right to KNOW our reality.

murnut 11-14-2008 12:57 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Believe me Martian...I know what you are saying, I used to feel the same way.

But the ufo community forfeits whatever "moral authority" it has when it attempts to take the law, even a flawed one, into it's own hands.

Whatever benefit comes of this, is tarnished, and will be disregarded by the public at large.

Believe it or not, the ufo community suffers from a lack of credibility.

Taking the "law" into ones own hands hurts the credibility of all of us.

I agree that there is a time and a place to disobey.

But at least have the courage to stand up for what you believe is right..(Gary)

Admittedly, he knew what he did was wrong, but did not think through the possible consequences.

If you want to make the case that he is entitled to look for the hidden knowledge, then I can make a case that he should have only hacked UK military targets.

All those who stood up against slavery and died, are diminished by your comparison to Gary.

They gave the ultimate sacrifice.

Gary has given nothing except cowardice, and my opinion is that he is probably lying, about seeing any Secret info, given the misinformation in the other parts of his defense.

I maintain that the biggest secret in the history of the world was not, is not hooked up to the internet.

He can be your hero.

He is not mine

martian31v 11-14-2008 01:32 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
murnut, the ufo community or any human being forfeits nothing when it attempts to search for information that has been stolen from us. paraphrasing Ghost, all human/civil rights movements have been forced to break inhumane laws in order to achieve justice. i am not concerned with Gary admitting his guilt. i would make the same argument against his admittion. And no, you cannot make a case for limiting his search to U.K targets. Whomever witholds existential information from the public is subject to OUR inquiry.

None who stood up against slavery or any other civil/human injustice are diminished by my comparison. they stand beside gary and support his dissent from tyranny. the oppression suffered by slaves differs from our current oppression only by degree, not in kind. they experienced physical and mental oppression. while we experience mental oppression. both forms are oppressive, and both forms deserve our vigilant opposition. you can have your opinions about whether or not gary is lying about what he found. those opinions are irrelevant to my argument.


support gary mckinnon write the obama transition team today
http://change.gov/page/s/contact

murnut 11-14-2008 01:37 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
We disagree Martian

martian31v 11-14-2008 01:46 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
it's not subject to disagreement. it's about truth. you can deny it, but it's still there staring us in the face. i'm not trying to be provocative. it's not my truth. it's OUR truth. gary's search for existential information is just.

express OUR truth and existential rights to the obama transition team.

http://change.gov/page/s/contact

murnut 11-14-2008 02:31 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Just whose version of "truth" are you buying?

Who is the insider who tells the truth you want to hear?

The "truth" is...that no matter what the Govt "discloses" it won't be believed, by you...will it?

Some will say it does not go far enough.

Some will say it is lies.

Some will believe anything the govt says.

The Govt loses no matter what.

And besides...Disclosure is in the hands of the visitors.

Govts can't answer even the most basic of questions...without the visitors aid.

I wonder why the visitors don't actually help disclosure?

Gee....come to think of it...I wonder why these visitors work secretly with the military?

Sure...everyone has a right to know, and I just told them.

No more hidden info

Problem solved.

Wait a minute...you want proof.


What would be proof enough Martian?

martian31v 11-14-2008 03:17 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
the govt lost it's credibility because it chose to withhold information, which strengthens the argument for of a free flow of information. if there was a free flow to begin with, gary wouldn't have had to search, and we wouldn't question what information was released.

as far as what will i believe when disclosure comes, that is a GREAT question. probably deserves its own thread. "would you believe the government when it discloses". i probably would not. i don't know... this is one of the worst bi-products of secrecy. once someone lies or withholds information, it becomes difficult to believe what they say.

the ultimate proof would come from the visitors. in the meantime i'll take a public acknowledgement of their presence (here on earth) and a schedule of released classified information. let the circus begin. oh yea, and a FREE GARY.

murnut 11-15-2008 12:50 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Gary is not in jail

zorgon 11-15-2008 01:29 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 79299)
Gary has given nothing except cowardice, and my opinion is that he is probably lying, about seeing any Secret info, given the misinformation in the other parts of his defense.

I have thought that myself. The simple fact he could not remember one name from a list is indeed odd when your intent is to find info. I don't have the ability to remember a list of names I saw for only a few minutes... but I would remember one... and whatever I saw on my screen would still be in my temp internet cache. A computer whiz would have no problem retrieving that.

Quote:

I maintain that the biggest secret in the history of the world was not, is not hooked up to the internet.
I second that... the 'good stuff' is NOT on the internet we use... unless some stupid employee was working on a file on his station he shouldn't have .

zorgon 11-15-2008 01:30 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 80059)
Gary is not in jail

Gary is still in Britain

Antaletriangle 11-16-2008 02:26 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
The people that created these "laws" are the same people trying to convict a person for revealing what is hidden and "theirs".
The use of knowledge is what counts not so much as in knowledge per se.Knowledge can be known,but what use is knowing something when it's left idling away on a dusty shelf or only probably used as a detriment to the peoples of the earth as in black projects?
O.K. the guy's fearful of extradiction-he's a human,fear comes in the makeup-he's only as fearful as the dictators of the planet,they're in fear of this technology affecting the plans of the NWO and the georgia guidestones scenario,(no planetary culling but a potentially harmonious existence where people would not worry about bills but could concentrate more on understanding and mutual benefits if this tech.was made public).He's meddled in something and got in well deep,what's the problem here?
He wishes to serve his time but on British soil,like other countries that has already been stated.
Why don't they give him a chance to go on the world stage and speak about his misgivings and ask for a punishment to be served in the U.K.? They won't allow this because of bringing it to the attention of the populations of the planet.Not many people are fully aware of the full information in this trial-the limited media coverage it has been given is always biased and never focuses on the humanitarian aspect of this.It's the terrorism mantra-yawn,yawn.
Is their no humanity left?
It beggars belief how people jump on the same stage as the warlords and dictators-"He's done wrong;this boy BAD!!!"
"He BE PUNISHED BIG STYLE"
I want these aggressors of nations to be brought to justice,Gary's small fry if it comes to terrorist acts and similar-what's the problem here!!?
It all begins in the playground and it appears most have not left.

Please don't approach my discussion as if im pointing fingers as i'm not,i just wish to state that the way this has been dealt with is like something out of the dark ages!They'll get the stocks out next for Hors d'œuvres before his trial,then maybe a guillotine would befit this man? It's a joke.

murnut 11-16-2008 02:34 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
I have no problem with Gary serving his time in Britain.

That was part of the plea agreement...WHICH GARY TURNED DOWN.


But you catch more flies with honey, don't you think.

Gary and his supporters have misrepresented the facts in the press....ie....Guantanamo, torture, 70 years...etc.

I am sure this does nothing but p!ss off those that are in a position to be lenient.

Antaletriangle 11-16-2008 02:44 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Yeah murnut i do understand yer mate,but it's the media again ain't it-all part of the same package-they work together.It's like the wolves circling for the blood.

murnut 11-16-2008 03:13 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Antaletriangle (Post 80992)
Yeah murnut i do understand yer mate,but it's the media again ain't it-all part of the same package-they work together.It's like the wolves circling for the blood.

I am not sure what you are saying

Antaletriangle 11-16-2008 03:34 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
You stated that there have been MIINTERPRETATIONS of the press-why did the press mention Guantameno initially,what is there to interpret?As soon a Guantanemo is mentioned by the press then that's the fear factory in full swing-let the wolves encircle waiting for the fear to produce a "good story".
They dine from the same plate.

http://security.itproportal.com/arti...dition-appeal/

NASA hacker Gary McKinnon has lost his appeal at the High Court against his extradition to the US to face a trial by prosecutors who allegedly told him he "would fry". McKinnon's lawyers will seek leave to appeal to the House of Lords.

McKinnon hacked into US military and NASA computers in 2001 and 2002 and admitted to the incident when arrested in November 2002. He was told by UK prosecutors that he faced community service, but US prosecutors sought his extradition.

Prosecutors in the US have said they believe McKinnon could be jailed for 70 years, could face a military and not a civil court and could even be interred at Guantanemo Bay.

If that isn't scaremongery by the press reports!?

or this:
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...h_hacker_.html
UK hacker Gary McKinnon is getting a lot of play out of America's (sadly, well-earned) international reputation for bypassing due process and ignoring human rights in the War on Terror.

Antaletriangle 11-16-2008 03:39 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
At last some good news from a an amasing/fave band!!

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...y-gig-mckinnon

PROG ROCK supergroup Marillion has agreed to play a benefit gig for Gary McKinnon as the Pentagon hacker's legal team prepares a last ditch attempt to have his US extradition order quashed.

Meanwhile, a political campaign to persuade Home Secretary Jacqui Smith to reject the US extradition request has gained momentum, with a clutch of big hitters demanding she show humanitarian care when considering the fate of people with Asperger's Syndrome, with which Gary was diagnosed in the summer.

Mark Kelly, keyboard player with Marillion, told the INQUIRER: "We're definitely interested. I spoke to the band about it and said let's put ourselves forward because its an important cause. They have agreed in principle. We just need to get some more details.

"I've always had an interest in computers and I read about Gary's case a couple of years ago. I identified with him a bit - someone hacking into computers and it being a bit of harmless rummaging around. He was looking for evidence of UFOs - it's not like he was a terrorist or anything," he said. "I'm a bit of a computer geek - keyboard player in a band - it comes with the territory really. Not that I ever got into hacking systems, but I could imagine in my younger and more stupid days I would have done something like that if I had the technical capability and would have seen it as a bit of harmless fun, and would never have thought it would lead to something as serious as this," he added.

"When I heard he was being extradited and was facing many years in prison and was being made an example of I thought, that's a bit harsh. He should stand trial here, shouldn't he?" said Kelly, who has someone with Asperger's Syndrome in his own family.

cont.on link above.

NancyV 11-16-2008 03:59 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martian31v (Post 78871)
hi nancy. your logic is flawed. all humans are created equal. this is a foundational assumption that is necessary to avoid discrimination/oppression. inside your assumption that "humans are not created equal on the physical plane", anyone or group could justify their oppression over another. hence, equal rights. this is basic human rights stuff. human rights 101.

"shoulds" do work as natural extensions of premises. again logic 101. conclusions follow premises. your "humans always will..." and "that's just reality" is literal nonsense. the fact that there are injustices doesn't make it right. i made a rational justification for gary's actions. you respond with subjective nonsense. inside your ABSURD reasoning "... accept the consequences of his actions because he was caught by someone who is stronger" ARE YOU KIDDING???? your reasoning has just supported every fascist dictatorship that has oppressed humans for eons. and you've done so with the same level of intelligence, NONE. i would first go take logic 101, so you could actually debate from an objective perspective. then maybe you could respond appropriately to the argument.

My dear Martian,

You are entirely too emotional in your responses. Because you want things to be a certain way does not make it so. Perhaps you could point out to me any time throughout history when man has not perpetrated injustices upon other men? My reasoning supports no one group and no one person, it supports the truth. I am relatively unattached to needing things to be different than they are, so unlike you, I have a very minor agenda of "shoulds".

Your "foundational assumption" that all men are created equal is just that, an assumption. It's a lovely sounding assumption, but not based in reality. Of course all souls are equal, ultimately, but all bodies are not equal and the minds that control the bodies are also not equal. Perhaps another look into the actual meaning of the word "equal" would be advisable. As far as "human rights", that's a creation of man. We have the "rights" that we are able to envision, take for ourselves and retain, either by intelligence or enforcement. The last time I looked, man was still enmeshed in the survival of the fittest scenario here on the earthplane.

Nowhere in what I said in my previous post was there even a hint that I thought "injustices were right", in fact, for you to come to that conclusion shows me that your vested interest in having your theories upheld contributes to your inability to see reality. In addition, saying that my statements "support every fascist dictatorship" is patently absurd in the extreme. I don't "support" anything in my statements or outlook, I observe reality and state it as it is.

Emotionality and attachment blind one to truth, and personal attacks on another because you feel threatened are a great weakness. It appears to me that you are probably relatively young and inexperienced, but do not despair, you have lots of time, in fact you have eternity.

Nancy

NancyV 11-16-2008 04:19 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martian31v (Post 78896)
the obama team should be sympathetic to gary's case, because it represents a response (by gary) to an injustice perpetrated by factions within the U.S govn. yes, a president or any other rational/honest being should justify gary's actions for the reasons stated in the argument below. you know, the argument you tried to refute, but failed.

There you go with the "shoulds" again. So Obama should be sympathetic to a guy who hacked into military computers? If he were so foolish as to express sympathy for a man who endangered "national security" it would guarantee that he wouldn't win another election. He even had to publically disavow his friendships with his more radical FRIENDS in order to win the election, so I'm sure he won't have much trouble ignoring an unknown hacker from the UK.

It doesn't matter if he's sympathetic or not, a president does not control as much as you seem to think he does. In fact, he will be part of the established order and the agenda of the true PTB (which does not include a temporary president), whether he likes it or not. If he didn't know that before he sought the office of president, he will surely know it soon.

Nancy

murnut 11-16-2008 04:26 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Antaletriangle (Post 81016)
You stated that there have been MIINTERPRETATIONS of the press-why did the press mention Guantameno initially,what is there to interpret?As soon a Guantanemo is mentioned by the press then that's the fear factory in full swing-let the wolves encircle waiting for the fear to produce a "good story".
They dine from the same plate.

http://security.itproportal.com/arti...dition-appeal/

NASA hacker Gary McKinnon has lost his appeal at the High Court against his extradition to the US to face a trial by prosecutors who allegedly told him he "would fry". McKinnon's lawyers will seek leave to appeal to the House of Lords.

McKinnon hacked into US military and NASA computers in 2001 and 2002 and admitted to the incident when arrested in November 2002. He was told by UK prosecutors that he faced community service, but US prosecutors sought his extradition.

Prosecutors in the US have said they believe McKinnon could be jailed for 70 years, could face a military and not a civil court and could even be interred at Guantanemo Bay.

If that isn't scaremongery by the press reports!?

or this:
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...h_hacker_.html
UK hacker Gary McKinnon is getting a lot of play out of America's (sadly, well-earned) international reputation for bypassing due process and ignoring human rights in the War on Terror.



These exaggerations come from Gary's side...and then are reported in the press.

It is a lie that Gary faces a MILITARY tribunal, it is a lie that Gary is to be treated as an enemy combatant, it is a lie that Gary would be held in Guantanamo, it is a lie that Gary faces 70 years, given US sentencing guide lines.

Gary is supporting lying.

Gary would support anything in the name his own self interest

nomadrush 11-16-2008 04:50 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
ROCK AGAINST INJUSTICE

Some of the biggest names in rock and pop music are being lined up for a massive concert in London in December for ROCK AGAINST INJUSTICE, a gig to bring awareness to the people of the unjust extradition treaty between the UK and USA that is about to see a number of British citizens including Gary McKinnon thrown out of the UK without trial or proof of any guilt.

Comedian Russell Brand has been invited to host and compere the event and names that are being approached include George Michael, Bob Geldof, Sting, Mark Knopfler, Rod Stewart, Marillion, Squeeze, Mika and many others!

The event will also raise money for ASPERGERS SYNDROME, as Gary McKinnon was diagnosed as a sufferer recently.

The organisers are now in discussions with a number of venues including the 02 Arena, Wembley Arena, The Royal Albert Hall and the NEC.

Senior front bench Conservative and Liberal MP's are behind a review to the extradition treaty but the Labour leadership refuses to debate the document in the house. Many British citizens say "their blood is boiling" over this issue and that there elected representatives are not acting in the interests of the British people.

Mark Kelly from legendary 60's band Marillion was the first to contact the organisers pledging his support and saying this is a cause that people need to get behind.

PLEASE everyone who cares about this UNFAIR EXTRADITION TREATY -help us publicise this event and get even more people on board - we need PROMOTERS and HELPERS urgently.

Ross Hemsworth
Presenter of the worldwide syndicated hit programme Now THAT'S Weird - www.nowthatsweird.co.uk
MY DAILY BLOG - http://blog.myspace.com/rosshemsworth

TheGhost 11-17-2008 12:19 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
"1)All humans are equal under the law."

Murnut, this is patently untrue. Serving heads of state are immune from prosecution.

"2) Knowledge is power if obtained lawfully"
"the ufo community forfeits whatever "moral authority" it has when it attempts to take the law, even a flawed one, into it's own hands."

Murnut, your argument presupposes that all laws are moral and just. This is also patently untrue.

Also, people are not bound by unjust laws. If the law is unjust they have a right to disobey it.
I'll refer you to one of my previous posts - all civil rights that we enjoy today were once illegal. People had to fight for them. People died for them, any not just in wars but in pitched battles with police/military within their own countries.

"Taking the "law" into ones own hands hurts the credibility of all of us."

Murnut, you seem to be one of those people who are addicted to the hunt [for knowledge of UFOs, or whatever] and you don't really want answers to come out because then the hunt is over.

Hacking into the pentagon and NASA, etc, is a pretty serious attempt at finding out the truth. The US authorities' actions (as well as the actions of the UK govt - making the Extradition Act 2003 retroactive so that it would apply to certain people, for example) shows how seriously they take his actions. How many in the "UFO community" have come under such scrutiny? Not many, because not many are prepared to go to the lengths that he did; the vast majority of people in the UFO community are agents.

"I can make a case that he should have only hacked UK military targets"
I sense some nationalism tainting your point of view here, murnut! Could that be the source of your angst with regard to Gary McKinnon's actions, by any chance?

"It is a lie that Gary faces a MILITARY tribunal, it is a lie that Gary is to be treated as an enemy combatant, it is a lie that Gary would be held in Guantanamo, it is a lie that Gary faces 70 years"
At a hearing on 12 April 2006 the prosecution produced an unsigned note from the US Embassy, claimed to be a guarantee that McKinnon would not be tried under U.S. Military Order 1 (November 13, 2001 - 66 Fed. Reg. 57,833 "Military Order"), which allows suspected terrorists to be tried under military law. However, the defence argued that the note was not binding as it was unsigned. The defence called as a witness Clive Stafford-Smith, a US-based lawyer who has defended inmates of Guantanamo Bay. Stafford-Smith argued that the note would not prevent McKinnon from being treated as a terrorist.

Murnut, you talk repeatedly of Gary not wanting to face the consequences of his actions.
The consequences of his actions under the Computer Misuse Act 1990 would have been 6 months' community service, if found guilty (the Crown Prosecution Service refused to charge him, by the way). This is quite a big difference from the 70 years he has been threatened with by the US authorities.



Murnut, the majority of your arguments are actually beside the point because Gary shouldn't even be faced with extradition. The Extradtion Act 2003 does not require the presentation of prima facie evidence by the US authorities. The MPs who pushed this act through parliament committed treason - putting the interests of a foreign government before the interests of British citizens.

Murnut, I'll ask you once again: how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?

And by the way, ducking questions, giving vague arguments and failing to answer specific points raised by other members hurts your credibility, murnut.

murnut 11-17-2008 01:35 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 81283)
"1)All humans are equal under the law."

Murnut, this is patently untrue. Serving heads of state are immune from prosecution.

My quote is taken out of context...why not include the quote i was replying to?


Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 81283)
"2) Knowledge is power if obtained lawfully"
"the ufo community forfeits whatever "moral authority" it has when it attempts to take the law, even a flawed one, into it's own hands."



Murnut, your argument presupposes that all laws are moral and just. This is also patently untrue.

Hacking is moral and just?

Gary should have hacked is own military, not the US


Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 81283)
Also, people are not bound by unjust laws. If the law is unjust they have a right to disobey it.
I'll refer you to one of my previous posts - all civil rights that we enjoy today were once illegal. People had to fight for them. People died for them, any not just in wars but in pitched battles with police/military within their own countries.

Taxes are illegal in my opinion, but I still pay them.

What civil liberty is being denied?

The right to know what goes on in black projects?

That's the crime?

There is no right to know military secrets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 81283)

"Taking the "law" into ones own hands hurts the credibility of all of us."

Murnut, you seem to be one of those people who are addicted to the hunt [for knowledge of UFOs, or whatever] and you don't really want answers to come out because then the hunt is over.

Sticks and stones.

Truth is...Uncle is generally clueless about the phenomena...that's why they still scramble jets to chase them.


Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 81283)
Hacking into the pentagon and NASA, etc, is a pretty serious attempt at finding out the truth. The US authorities' actions (as well as the actions of the UK govt - making the Extradition Act 2003 retroactive so that it would apply to certain people, for example) shows how seriously they take his actions. How many in the "UFO community" have come under such scrutiny? Not many, because not many are prepared to go to the lengths that he did; the vast majority of people in the UFO community are agents.

You probably think I am an agent..hehe

If Gary was not prepared to face the music, he should not have done the crime.


Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 81283)
"I can make a case that he should have only hacked UK military targets"
I sense some nationalism tainting your point of view here, murnut! Could that be the source of your angst with regard to Gary McKinnon's actions, by any chance?

I am a proud American...does that make me evil?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 81283)
"It is a lie that Gary faces a MILITARY tribunal, it is a lie that Gary is to be treated as an enemy combatant, it is a lie that Gary would be held in Guantanamo, it is a lie that Gary faces 70 years"

At a hearing on 12 April 2006 the prosecution produced an unsigned note from the US Embassy, claimed to be a guarantee that McKinnon would not be tried under U.S. Military Order 1 (November 13, 2001 - 66 Fed. Reg. 57,833 "Military Order"), which allows suspected terrorists to be tried under military law. However, the defence argued that the note was not binding as it was unsigned. The defence called as a witness Clive Stafford-Smith, a US-based lawyer who has defended inmates of Guantanamo Bay. Stafford-Smith argued that the note would not prevent McKinnon from being treated as a terrorist.

Grasping at straws....look at the charges freely available online.

Gary is not charged as a terrorist...period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 81283)
Murnut, you talk repeatedly of Gary not wanting to face the consequences of his actions.
The consequences of his actions under the Computer Misuse Act 1990 would have been 6 months' community service, if found guilty (the Crown Prosecution Service refused to charge him, by the way). This is quite a big difference from the 70 years he has been threatened with by the US authorities.

Gee...he was offered 36 mos...the last 18 to be served in Britain.

HE REFUSED


Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 81283)
Murnut, the majority of your arguments are actually beside the point because Gary shouldn't even be faced with extradition. The Extradtion Act 2003 does not require the presentation of prima facie evidence by the US authorities. The MPs who pushed this act through parliament committed treason - putting the interests of a foreign government before the interests of British citizens.

Murnut, I'll ask you once again: how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?

Again, I have no opinion on the extradition law.

Gary will have the opportunity to defend himself at trial in the States.

Again, my opinion is that Gary should plead out.

If Gary feels his case is soooooo strong and there is no evidence, there should not be any problems...right?


Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 81283)
And by the way, ducking questions, giving vague arguments and failing to answer specific points raised by other members hurts your credibility, murnut.

Now that isn't fair since I have answered every question directed at me.


I apologize that you don't agree with my opinion.

I don't think I have been vague at all.

Got an example that is not taken out of context...like your first quote of me above?

RFburns 11-17-2008 01:11 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
I am wondering if this Gary is seeing all of this as worth the trouble and negative publicity.

Im not sure that it is from my prospective. What further proof or gain has the public obtained from this..if anything?

Are we any closer to truth? Or has this brought another black mark upon the ufo community?

I wouldnt mind someone showing me what has come out of all this except for the back and forth debating on penalties and extraditions and refusals.

Who is benefiting from all of this?

Cheers!!!!

TheGhost 11-17-2008 02:00 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
"I have no opinion on the extradition law."
This is what I mean about ducking questions. You don't need to know about the Extradition Act 2003, specifically, or have an opinion on that law, specifically.
The point of the question is about the act circumventing the centuries old principle of prima facie evidence being presented by the prosecution.

What is your opinion on the situation that people can now be extradited on the CLAIM of a crime without the prosecution being burdened with the need to produce EVIDENCE of the crime?

You say he'll get a chance to defend himself in the US. He shouldn't even be faced with the possibility of being extradited in the first place and be put into the situation where he has the 'opportunity' to defend himself in a US court.


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