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-   -   Poor Gary Mckinnon (http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=585)

sleepingnomore 11-12-2008 03:06 PM

Re: Poor Gary McKinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 70381)
dream on

Really, what have you read in US news about this pending expedition?:smoke:

murnut 11-12-2008 04:39 PM

Re: Poor Gary McKinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepingnomore (Post 77934)
Really, what have you read in US news about this pending expedition?:smoke:

Enough to realize that most of what Gary and his supporters say is FALSE

sleepingnomore 11-12-2008 06:28 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
I'm not looking for an argument but if you have any links I'd appreciate reading them, because the only news I've heard on this matter is outside the US.

murnut 11-12-2008 06:42 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepingnomore (Post 78063)
I'm not looking for an argument but if you have any links I'd appreciate reading them, because the only news I've heard on this matter is outside the US.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...ciTech_4306168



Brit Hacker Loses U.S. Extradition Appeal
LONDON, July 30, 2008(AP) Some call it the biggest hack of military computers; perhaps it was just a big embarrassment.

Gary McKinnon — accused of breaking into military and NASA computers in what he claims was a search for UFOs, allegedly causing nearly $1 million in damage — has lost his appeal for extradition to the United States.

McKinnon, 42, an unemployed computer administrator, allegedly broke into 97 computers belonging to the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, and Department of Defense from a bedroom in a north London home.

His attacks between 2001 and 2002 allegedly shut down the Army district responsible for protecting Washington, and cleared logs from computers at the Naval Weapons Station Earle in New Jersey that tracks the location and battle-readiness of Navy ships.

That last attack, coming immediately after the Sept. 11, knocked out the station's entire network of 300 computers. NASA and privately owned computers also were damaged, prosecutors said, putting the total cost of his online activities at $900,000.

At the time of his indictment, prosecutor Paul McNulty said McKinnon pulled off "the biggest hack of military computers ever — at least ever detected."

In his defense, McKinnon, known online as SOLO, said he was trying to expose security weaknesses and uncover evidence of UFOs.

"I was a man obsessed," McKinnon wrote on The Guardian newspaper's Web site last year, describing a year spent trying to break into U.S. military systems: eight hours a day at a computer in his girlfriend's aunt's house while unkempt, drinking beer and smoking marijuana.

In interviews, he claimed that his hacking uncovered photographic proof of alien spacecraft and the names and ranks of "non-terrestrial officers."

Prosecutors accuse him of deliberately trying to intimidate the U.S. government by tearing through their networks. They pointed to a note written by McKinnon — and left on an Army computer — attacking U.S. foreign policy as "akin to government-sponsored terrorism."

"It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year," he wrote. "I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels."

McKinnon was caught in 2002 after some of the software used in the attacks was traced back to his girlfriend's e-mail account. The U.S. sought his extradition, a move his lawyer Claire Anderson claimed Wednesday was motivated by the government's desire to "make an example" of a man who humbled officials in Washington by hacking into their systems using off-the-shelf office software and a dial-up modem.

Aspects of American cyber-security had been shown up as "really shameful," with some computers not even password-protected, said Graham Cluley, a security consultant with Sophos PLC.

He said the United States appeared to be pursuing McKinnon in an effort to flexing its legal muscle to the hacking community, which has watched the case with interest.

"The overriding message is: You shouldn't mess with American government and military computers, particularly right after Sept. 11," Cluley said.

McKinnon's lawyers had hoped to hold any trial in Britain, saying he could be dragged before a military tribunal or even end up at Guantanamo Bay.

In their appeals, they said McKinnon was warned by U.S. officials that he would not be allowed to serve any part of his sentence in Britain unless he agreed to cooperate with his extradition. That, they argued, amounted to an unlawful threat and abuse of process.

Not so, Britain's House of Lords said Wednesday. Lord Brown, writing for Britain's highest court, said plea bargaining could only be called an abuse of process "in a wholly extreme case."

"This is far from being such a case," he said.

While the decision exhausts McKinnon's legal options in Britain, Anderson said she would appeal to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France. She said British authorities had agreed to keep McKinnon in Britain for at least two weeks to allow his lawyers to prepare their application.

"If that fails, then it's off to jail in America for 60 years," McKinnon told the British Broadcasting Corp. "Rapists and murderers and real terrorists get less."

Should McKinnon be extradited, he would face trial in Virginia and New Jersey on eight charges of computer fraud.

Each charge potentially carries a sentence of up to 10 years in prison and $250,000 in fines. However, U.S. sentencing guidelines would likely recommend a much lighter sentence.

martian31v 11-12-2008 08:16 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
murnut do you have a problem with following simple logic? i'll try to keep it as simple as possible for you. only cause i like you:wink2:

BASIS FOR FREEDOM OF EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION
PREMIS 1. ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL.
PREMIS 2. EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE GIVES ADVANTAGE TO THE KNOWER. (I.E. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER)

CONCLUSION 1. ALL EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL HUMANS.

CONCLUSION 2. GARY IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SEARCH FOR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION.

IF AGREE THEN SEND ARGUMENT TO MR PODESTA AT http://change.gov/page/s/contact

IF NOT, THEN PLEASE IDENTIFY A FALSE PREMISE OR FAILURE OF PRIMES LEADING TO CONCLUSION

martian31v 11-12-2008 08:27 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 77921)
Good luck, everybody, arguing with Murnut! lol

This guy clearly just doesn't get it. He equates computer hacking with evil, for crying out loud! And he probably thinks we should take his arguments seriously.

Murnut, you really shouldn't confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal, and you shouldn't confuse legal and illegal with lawful and unlawful.

The ends DO justify the means to a certain extent. Every civil right we have was once illegal. Trade unions, civil rights organisation, etc, etc, FOUGHT (physically usually) with police and the authorities to obtain the freedom and rights we enjoy today.

Governments are not benevolent (even the democratic [sic] ones). They do not bestow rights upon their people. Their raison d'κtre is control and they are constantly trying to tighten the noose around our necks - and are succeeding.

Murnut, you appear to be equating anyone who stands up to the PTB as evil; any action taken against them is evil. Those who stand up to them are as bad as they are. Are you serious, dude??

How many wars has Gary McKinnon started?
How many innocent civilians has he killed through sanctions?
How many people has Gary used as human guinea pigs for experimentation?
How many people (children in particular) have been kidnapped, tortured, raped and ritually sacrificed by Gary?


You imply that he or anyone who stands up to the PTB is evil. What is your definition of evil, please??

NOTHING that ANY of US could EVER do will EVER come close to even being compared in the same sentence to the EVIL that has been and is being committed by the PTB.

Murnut, I think you need a period of serious re-evaluation of your point of view.

THANKS GHOST. I NORMALLY WOULDN'T GET INTO ARGUMENTS WITH SOMEONE INCAPABLE OF RATIONAL DIALOG. BUT AFTER READING CLOSE TO 50 ANTI GARY POSTS (here and at open minds) I FELT IT NECESSARY TO PUT AN END TO HIS NONSENSE. MOST OF HIS STATEMENTS ARE COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THE FUNDAMENTAL POINTS SURROUNDING GARY'S HISTORICAL CASE. HOPE YOU CONTINUE TO CORRECT OUR FRIEND UNTIL HE CONCEEDS.

THE eXchanger 11-12-2008 08:29 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
i wonder if Bill & Kerry are still helping him out ???

Antaletriangle 11-12-2008 08:34 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
As far as i know they're trying but Gary and his lawyer have opted for the asperger's option-i think Kerry and Bill wanted him to try the approach of the essence of discovering hidden info.and hitting on a raw nerve with the american govt.approach-i'm sure they will provide an update soon on this.

martian31v 11-12-2008 08:35 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eXchanger (Post 78168)
i wonder if Bill & Kerry are still helping him out ???

i think they are??? but so are many within the ufo community. (disclosure project, exopolitics group, eceti james gilliland.) but everyone needs to chip in and write to the obama transition team. http://change.gov/page/s/contact

Antaletriangle 11-12-2008 09:38 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Ross hemsworth on 'now that's weird':
There is finally some LIGHT at the end of the tunnel for Gary...

I have just heard back from my own local MP who says that many "front bench Conservatives" are outraged by the current UK/US extradition treaty and are calling for a debate in the house to have this one sided document changed! There seems to be a growing tide of MP's who feel that it does not protect UK citizens - and about bloody time too! We have been saying that for ages! Let's hope finally, Parliament gets its act together and stops the extradition of Gary McKinnon.

Ross
http://www.nowthatsweird.co.uk/news.php?readmore=38

murnut 11-13-2008 02:56 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martian31v (Post 78157)
murnut do you have a problem with following simple logic? i'll try to keep it as simple as possible for you. only cause i like you:wink2:

BASIS FOR FREEDOM OF EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION
PREMIS 1. ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL.
PREMIS 2. EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE GIVES ADVANTAGE TO THE KNOWER. (I.E. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER)

CONCLUSION 1. ALL EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL HUMANS.

CONCLUSION 2. GARY IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SEARCH FOR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION.

IF AGREE THEN SEND ARGUMENT TO MR PODESTA AT http://change.gov/page/s/contact

IF NOT, THEN PLEASE IDENTIFY A FALSE PREMISE OR FAILURE OF PRIMES LEADING TO CONCLUSION



Your logic is flawed, and is not based in reality of what actually is, and what can actually be.

Fairy tales, just like many insider "releases"

Ever wonder why they target the ufo community only?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

UFO vigilantism hurts the serious research.

Interesting that vigilantism has been a huge failure.

Ya know why?

Vigilantes are not taken seriously

murnut 11-13-2008 02:57 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martian31v (Post 78164)
THANKS GHOST. I NORMALLY WOULDN'T GET INTO ARGUMENTS WITH SOMEONE INCAPABLE OF RATIONAL DIALOG. BUT AFTER READING CLOSE TO 50 ANTI GARY POSTS (here and at open minds) I FELT IT NECESSARY TO PUT AN END TO HIS NONSENSE. MOST OF HIS STATEMENTS ARE COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THE FUNDAMENTAL POINTS SURROUNDING GARY'S HISTORICAL CASE. HOPE YOU CONTINUE TO CORRECT OUR FRIEND UNTIL HE CONCEEDS.


Keep trying

murnut 11-13-2008 02:59 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Antaletriangle (Post 78173)
As far as i know they're trying but Gary and his lawyer have opted for the asperger's option-i think Kerry and Bill wanted him to try the approach of the essence of discovering hidden info.and hitting on a raw nerve with the american govt.approach-i'm sure they will provide an update soon on this.

Example of the ufo community using Gary as a pawn to push their agenda before of Gary's best interests.

It is embarrassing

NancyV 11-13-2008 03:03 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martian31v (Post 78175)
i think they are??? but so are many within the ufo community. (disclosure project, exopolitics group, eceti james gilliland.) but everyone needs to chip in and write to the obama transition team. http://change.gov/page/s/contact

Why on earth would the Obama team be sympathetic with someone who hacked into military computers? Do you think a President Obama could possibly say it's okay for people to hack into secrets that they have no intention of releasing?

Nancy

NancyV 11-13-2008 03:10 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martian31v (Post 78157)
murnut do you have a problem with following simple logic? i'll try to keep it as simple as possible for you. only cause i like you:wink2:

BASIS FOR FREEDOM OF EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION
PREMIS 1. ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL.
PREMIS 2. EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE GIVES ADVANTAGE TO THE KNOWER. (I.E. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER)

CONCLUSION 1. ALL EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL HUMANS.

CONCLUSION 2. GARY IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SEARCH FOR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION.

IF AGREE THEN SEND ARGUMENT TO MR PODESTA AT http://change.gov/page/s/contact

IF NOT, THEN PLEASE IDENTIFY A FALSE PREMISE OR FAILURE OF PRIMES LEADING TO CONCLUSION

Premis 1: All humans are not created "equal" on the physical plane
Premis 2: Yes, knowledge can be advantageous

Conclusion 1: "Shoulds" don't work. Life is not fair. Humans always have and always will keep secrets in order to gain advantage. That's just reality.

Conslusion 2: Gary doesn't need a justification to do anything, he only has to accept the consequences of his actions if he's caught by someone who is able to control him because they are stronger or badder than he is.

freekatz 11-13-2008 04:38 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Now THAT'S some encouraging news. hopefully great news for Gary, but also for the rest of us. It's about time our feeble minded politicians stood up and stopped kowtowing to America...thanks for giving us this information:thumb_yello: I really believe that hearing hopeful news can strengthen us on an energetic level.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Antaletriangle (Post 78224)
Ross hemsworth on 'now that's weird':
There is finally some LIGHT at the end of the tunnel for Gary...

I have just heard back from my own local MP who says that many "front bench Conservatives" are outraged by the current UK/US extradition treaty and are calling for a debate in the house to have this one sided document changed! There seems to be a growing tide of MP's who feel that it does not protect UK citizens - and about bloody time too! We have been saying that for ages! Let's hope finally, Parliament gets its act together and stops the extradition of Gary McKinnon.

Ross
http://www.nowthatsweird.co.uk/news.php?readmore=38


THE eXchanger 11-13-2008 04:41 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
well, i am sure, this whole thing
has been very hard on Gary,
and, his family --
there should NOT be secrets !!!

murnut 11-13-2008 05:07 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eXchanger (Post 78545)
well, i am sure, this whole thing
has been very hard on Gary,
and, his family --
there should NOT be secrets !!!

Or income tax, or electric bills.....

Gary would have served his time by now, and would have been a free man for the last 3 years.

He bears the responsibility for his own actions

TheGhost 11-13-2008 02:04 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
You're right murnut, there shouldn't be income tax. There is no law specifically requiring citizens of the UK or US to pay income tax.

It only goes to the central banks, anyway; it doesn't go towards paying for any services. Other taxes (property taxes, for example and council taxes) pay for our services, as well as VAT.

As for electricity bills: if the free energy technology that Gary was looking for was released, there would be no electricity bills!


Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 78563)
Or income tax, or electric bills.....

Gary would have served his time by now, and would have been a free man for the last 3 years.

He bears the responsibility for his own actions


Antaletriangle 11-13-2008 03:31 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 78761)
You're right murnut, there shouldn't be income tax. There is no law specifically requiring citizens of the UK or US to pay income tax.

It only goes to the central banks, anyway; it doesn't go towards paying for any services. Other taxes (property taxes, for example and council taxes) pay for our services, as well as VAT.

As for electricity bills: if the free energy technology that Gary was looking for was released, there would be no electricity bills!

Full agreement that was the main concern he had believe it or not-it's not so much the ET craft and entire UFO cachee it's the free nergy that has the govt. rumbled.

martian31v 11-13-2008 05:16 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NancyV (Post 78487)
Premis 1: All humans are not created "equal" on the physical plane
Premis 2: Yes, knowledge can be advantageous

Conclusion 1: "Shoulds" don't work. Life is not fair. Humans always have and always will keep secrets in order to gain advantage. That's just reality.

Conslusion 2: Gary doesn't need a justification to do anything, he only has to accept the consequences of his actions if he's caught by someone who is able to control him because they are stronger or badder than he is.

hi nancy. your logic is flawed. all humans are created equal. this is a foundational assumption that is necessary to avoid discrimination/oppression. inside your assumption that "humans are not created equal on the physical plane", anyone or group could justify their oppression over another. hence, equal rights. this is basic human rights stuff. human rights 101.

"shoulds" do work as natural extensions of premises. again logic 101. conclusions follow premises. your "humans always will..." and "that's just reality" is literal nonsense. the fact that there are injustices doesn't make it right. i made a rational justification for gary's actions. you respond with subjective nonsense. inside your ABSURD reasoning "... accept the consequences of his actions because he was caught by someone who is stronger" ARE YOU KIDDING???? your reasoning has just supported every fascist dictatorship that has oppressed humans for eons. and you've done so with the same level of intelligence, NONE. i would first go take logic 101, so you could actually debate from an objective perspective. then maybe you could respond appropriately to the argument.

martian31v 11-13-2008 05:32 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 78475)
Your logic is flawed, and is not based in reality of what actually is, and what can actually be.

Fairy tales, just like many insider "releases"

Ever wonder why they target the ufo community only?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

UFO vigilantism hurts the serious research.

Interesting that vigilantism has been a huge failure.

Ya know why?

Vigilantes are not taken seriously

interesting how my logic is flawed, but you dont even address one of my points. our reality is based on what "can be". our reality is based on uncertainty, thus our reality is based on what CAN BE. quantum physics 101. if your going to debate my argument, then address the points. but you can't so you'll continue to spout nonsense. and i'll continue to correct you.

martian31v 11-13-2008 05:53 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NancyV (Post 78484)
Why on earth would the Obama team be sympathetic with someone who hacked into military computers? Do you think a President Obama could possibly say it's okay for people to hack into secrets that they have no intention of releasing?

Nancy

the obama team should be sympathetic to gary's case, because it represents a response (by gary) to an injustice perpetrated by factions within the U.S govn. yes, a president or any other rational/honest being should justify gary's actions for the reasons stated in the argument below. you know, the argument you tried to refute, but failed.

martian31v 11-13-2008 05:57 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
i'll state it one more time for nancy and murnut.


BASIS FOR FREEDOM OF EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION
PREMIS 1. ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL.
PREMIS 2. EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE GIVES ADVANTAGE TO THE KNOWER. (I.E. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER)

CONCLUSION 1. ALL EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL HUMANS.

CONCLUSION 2. GARY IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SEARCH FOR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION.

IF AGREE THEN SEND ARGUMENT TO MR PODESTA AT http://change.gov/page/s/contact

IF NOT, THEN PLEASE IDENTIFY A FALSE PREMISE OR FAILURE OF PRIMES LEADING TO CONCLUSION

sleepingnomore 11-13-2008 06:56 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
murnut,

Thank you for providiing the link and summary. Being familiar with the govt, military, current administration and legal system I think I'll wait to see if this trial is really public and view the evidence presented before I make up my mind.


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