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-   -   Poor Gary Mckinnon (http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=585)

murnut 11-28-2008 01:28 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 88130)
Also, the legal system can only work by deception. People only engage in it because they are deceived into thinking they have to. Every lawyer and judge is acting fraudulently (which is criminal) when they entice people into their system.

And what system of justice do you propose?

TheGhost 11-28-2008 02:04 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
"And also, what is the point of a trial, once one pleads guilty? "

Sorry, I meant it still has to go to court. I shouldn't argue late at night! :sleep_1:

TheGhost 11-28-2008 02:07 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 88145)
And what system of justice do you propose?

To begin with: one that doesn't operate by deception as a rule; that would be a pretty good start, I think.
But this is a much bigger question for a different discussion. I mentioned it because you seem to be very hung up on legality. I thought I should inform you that the entire profession is based on fraud - it is a criminal organisation - organised crime in other words.

Antaletriangle 11-28-2008 02:31 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/US-extradition/

Sign the above petition and this will help to change the extradition laws to te U.S.

http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/p...pictureid=4971

murnut 11-28-2008 03:12 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 88327)
To begin with: one that doesn't operate by deception as a rule; that would be a pretty good start, I think.
But this is a much bigger question for a different discussion. I mentioned it because you seem to be very hung up on legality. I thought I should inform you that the entire profession is based on fraud - it is a criminal organisation - organised crime in other words.

The deception in legal systems is what exactly?

TheGhost 11-29-2008 11:53 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 88349)
The deception in legal systems is what exactly?

The deception is vast! 'Capitis Diminutio Maxima' is something everyone should know about.
Take a look at this site:

http://www.thinkfree.ca/

Watch the free movies. Be prepared to spend some hours watching these and taking it all in.
The guy is based in Canada but there are British, American and other sections. Most of the laws of our countries are fairly similar, just tweaked slightly in each, but based on the same principles - so they can all be fought in similar ways.

You could also look at:

http://www.thetruthwillout.com/common_law.html

http://www.thetruthwillout.com/credit_cards.html

This is a very good book:
http://www.freedomfiles.org/mary-Book.pdf


Maybe you could find some template letters for dealing with the next speeding ticket you get, so you don't have to pay it!

Similar principles for dealing with credit cards can be used in dealing with mortgages - but this is much more risky simply because it is a lot of debt that the banks really want you to be lumbered with - they would probably use every dirty, legal or otherwise, tactic against you if you were to fight them regarding your mortgage.

Like I said previously, the legal system is all about commerce, so the scam that is the monetary system is tied in very closely. The money that is 'lent' to you for credit cards or mortgages doesn't actually exist (it is numbers on a screen taken from one column and put into another - literally only that) and yet you have to pay it back with interest or with your house (real wealth) if you don't keep up with repayments.

You might want to look up 'indentured servitude'.

Anyway, this is all off topic.

murnut 11-29-2008 01:03 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
And what do you propose in place of a legal system?

anonypony 11-29-2008 06:57 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Hi to all
Firstly to correct any misconseption I am not Gary's mother, she never posted here as far as I know. But you are not wrong to assume a connection Gary's parent are close friends of ours.

Here is the latest news from Free Gary site
Gary McKinnon's extradition Judicial Review hearing is due on Tuesday 20th January 2009 - the same day that George Bush officially hands over to Barack Obama as US President

By fg on November 28, 2008 7:50 PM | No Comments

Gary McKinnon's lawyers, led by Karen Todner, have succeeded, despite fierce opposition from the UK Government (represented by a barrister working for the Treasury Solicitor) in getting a Court Date for the oral Judicial Review of the decision to extradite Gary to the USA - Tuesday 20th January 2009


It seems that Hugo Keith QC, acting for the Treasury Solicitor argued against any sort of Judicial Review, and then wasted even more public money on legal fees, and slowed down the already overburdened Court system, by getting a hearing in front of a Judge, to try to overturn Karen Todner's rejection of the date which he was demanding, the 2nd December (i.e. next Tuesday),


Is it just a coincidence, or are the officials who set the Court Dates waving a couple of fingers at President George W. Bush and his apparatchiki and henchmen, who officially hand over power to President-elect Barack Obama on the same day, Tuesday 20th January 2009 ?


Demonstrations in support of Gary McKinnon - US Embassy and Office of Tony Blair, Grosvenor Square, London, Friday 5th December 2008, 5pm - 7pm


There will be further demonstrations in support of Gary McKinnon, who is facing imminent extradition to the United States of America, rather than facing a UK court, for his alleged computer hacking activities over 6 years ago.
It is intended that a letter to President-Elect Barack Obama will be handed in to the Embassy of the United States of America in London.
Date: Friday 5th December
Time: 5 pm -7pm
Location:
Embassy of the United States of America,
24 Grosvenor Square
London
W1A 2LQ
Media Contacts: - being arranged - email info@FreeGary.org.uk
Location Maps:
Map on the US Embassy website
Streetmap.co.uk map
http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog....o_pen1_300.jpg
At some convenient time during this demonstration, a letter will also be handed in to the Office of Tony Blair. The former British Prime Minister, who is now a Middle East Peace envoy, and involved with charities and lucrative public speaking, is likely to be involved, behind the scenes, in UK and US foreign policy and security discussions.
The Office of Tony Blair, which costs over half a million pounds a year in rent alone, is situated nearby at the north east corner of Grosvenor Square, in the historic John Adams house, at number 9 Grosvenor Square, on the corner with Brook Street and Duke Street. John Adams was the first United States Minister to the Court of St. James's i.e. Ambassador, and the second President of the United States. He lived there from 1785 to 1788.
http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog...._Blair_300.jpg
Some advice about demonstrations in central London:


Continue reading Demonstrations in support of Gary McKinnon - US Embassy and Office of Tony Blair, Grosvenor Square, London, Friday 5th December 2008, 5pm - 7pm.


You are :welcomeani:to come if you can

TheGhost 11-30-2008 05:40 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 88679)
And what do you propose in place of a legal system?


You've watched all the videos and taken it all in, have you?? And this is your response, is it??


When did I ever say get rid of the legal system? - I didn't. I said the legal system that we have is completely and utterly corrupt.

What we need is one that isn't completely and utterly corrupt. Nowhere in my argument did I say get rid of the legal system.


If you are going to post inane questions like this and continue to make inane statements it is not going to be worth my time to respond.

I don't mind arguing with you, murnut, but make it an argument worth having.

murnut 11-30-2008 01:42 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
I checked your links and found them to be not very compelling.

I won't debate how not to pay credit card debt or speeding tickets.

I think we should stay on topic....

By the way, I came across the case of Brian Howes and his wife Kerry.

Are you all familiar with it?
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsrelea...130phoenix.htm

Brian and his wife also face extradition.

Compared to Brian, Gary is a saint

TheGhost 11-30-2008 10:05 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
"I checked your links and found them to be not very compelling."

There were several hours' worth of videos on the first site and you replied in less than 90 minutes after I posted the message. But you didn't find them very compelling...
You obvioisly did a lot of research in the 90 minutes, didn't you, murnut?

murnut 11-30-2008 10:13 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 89125)
"I checked your links and found them to be not very compelling."

There were several hours' worth of videos on the first site and you replied in less than 90 minutes after I posted the message. But you didn't find them very compelling...
You obvioisly did a lot of research in the 90 minutes, didn't you, murnut?

Think Free?

No video's there for me...I guess because I am not a member

anonypony 12-01-2008 11:08 AM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 88044)
Please don't try to make this thread about me.


This is rich....
Try to NOT make this thread about YOU would be a good start!!!!!:zip:
Try NOT to repeat yourself would be a good practice !!!!!:zip:
Try give others space to express themselves before you pounce!!!!!:zip:

TheGhost 12-01-2008 10:03 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 89132)
Think Free?

No video's there for me...I guess because I am not a member

Here you go, murnut. It's under the main menu. You don't have to join to view them.

murnut 12-01-2008 10:59 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Pick one video...I will watch it and give you my review.

Fair enough?

TheGhost 12-02-2008 01:42 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 89651)
Pick one video...I will watch it and give you my review.

Fair enough?

Why don't you just watch them all? I'm not really interested in a review from you; I've seen them and I have my own opinion about them.

This is for your education and enlightenment, murnut. What are you afraid of, your current world view collapsing (where everything legal is moral and good and everything illegal is immoral and bad, lol, and the govenment is good and just wants what's best for you)?

blindeye 12-02-2008 01:48 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
* well put.:thumb_yello:

murnut 12-02-2008 02:02 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 89913)
Why don't you just watch them all? I'm not really interested in a review from you; I've seen them and I have my own opinion about them.

This is for your education and enlightenment, murnut. What are you afraid of, your current world view collapsing (where everything legal is moral and good and everything illegal is immoral and bad, lol, and the govenment is good and just wants what's best for you)?

Current world view collapsing?

That happened long ago.

I will watch all the video's..(already seen the masked guy) just as soon as you read all of my 5800 posts at OMF...fair enough?

You don't know me or what my world view is, until you do.

To make it easier on you, just read this thread

http://lucianarchy.proboards21.com/i...ead=288&page=1

I started it a year ago.

But this discussion is off topic here.

If you want to start a thread about what kind of legal system you want, be my guest.

Better hurry though, time is short here

Antaletriangle 12-02-2008 02:58 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday December 2 2008 12.21 GMT
Hacker in final showdown to avoid extradition to USBriton accused of biggest hack in US military history wins delay in judicial review

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...adition-hacker

The British man accused of hacking into US military computers will have his final showdown in the UK courts next month.

After almost four years of fighting extradition to the US as a result of what prosecutors have called "the biggest military computer hack of all time", Londoner Gary McKinnon will face a judicial review conducted by the high court on January 20.

McKinnon – who used the online name Solo – is accused of hacking into computers belonging to the Pentagon, Nasa and US armed forces in raids conducted between 2001 and 2002.

Prosecutors say he shut down thousands of machines and caused up to $700,000 worth of damage, while the 42-year-old claims he was searching for evidence of UFOs.

Over the course of the case, defence lawyers argued that McKinnon will face unduly harsh punishment for his actions and should instead face trial in the UK, since the alleged hacking attacks were conducted from a house in north London.

By the time the decision is made, it will be almost seven years since McKinnon ended his activities. During that time a succession of arguments have been made against his removal – including that he faces up to 60 years in prison or detention at Guantánamo Bay, and that he should receive leniency because he suffers from Aspberger's syndrome.

Such protestations have so far proved unsuccessful, however, with a string of decisions against him, including rulings by the law lords and the home secretary. McKinnon's last chance to avoid removal to the US will come in next month's judicial review.

Prosecutors acting for the government argued that McKinnon's review should take place today but his lawyers succeeded in pushing it back until the new year.

The news brought cheer to some campaigners who see the date as an auspicious sign. Coinciding with the inauguration of Barack Obama as president, supporters at the Free Gary website suggested the date could be the equivalent of "waving a couple of fingers" at the Bush administration.

In recent months campaigners – including former home secretary David Blunkett have argued that McKinnon should be tried in the UK because of his medical condition.

His supporters are hopeful that they can sway the final judgment, particularly after Gordon Brown spoke about the case publicly for the first time last week and hinted that McKinnon may not end up in a US jail.

During prime minister's questions last week, Brown was asked about McKinnon's situation and said that existing conventions would enable him to serve any prison sentence in Britain, rather than in the US.

"The UK and the US are signatories to the Council of Europe convention on the transfer of sentenced persons, which enables a person found guilty in the United States of America to serve their sentence in the UK," he told MPs.

historycircus 12-05-2008 05:21 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Poor Gary Mckinnon.

Hacked into a private government system, got caught, and doesn't feel as if there should be any punishment for it.

I'm really torn on this one. The U.S. government lies to us, keeps secrets, and may actually be working on plans to harm us. If what he said he found is true (no evidence beyond his word, if my memory serves me correctly - is there no "cut and paste" function in the UK?), we deserve to know. In that sense, he could be considered a freedom fighter.

But, whether one considers the U.S. government bad or good, governments have a right to operate private systems as they relate to defense and national security, and prosecute those who knowingly violate them. Mckinnon knew what he was doing was illegal, and chose to do it anyway. Had he hacked into a hospital database and began collecting private medical information, or hacked into a credit card company to review people's purchasing habits, we would be outraged. It is not hard for me to understand the government's anger on this one, despite the fact that the information he claims to have seen should be in the public arena. It is a tough issue.

He better thank his lucky stars he is from the UK, because I could see the Bush administration pushing for a charge of "treason" if he were from the U.S. - and we all know what that could mean.

I don't really worry about his future though. Given the crime, if he cooperates with the U.S. government, chances are he could walk away with no jail time whatsoever, or a short sentence with legal wrangling that would only last a few years. He is now too high profile to kill, and chances are, someone out in Hollywood is just waiting to buy his story - if not Hollywood, Baliwood, or somewhere - he will end up getting paid in the end.

TheGhost 12-06-2008 02:39 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by historycircus (Post 91280)
Poor Gary Mckinnon.

Hacked into a private government system, got caught, and doesn't feel as if there should be any punishment for it.

I'm really torn on this one. The U.S. government lies to us, keeps secrets, and may actually be working on plans to harm us. If what he said he found is true (no evidence beyond his word, if my memory serves me correctly - is there no "cut and paste" function in the UK?), we deserve to know. In that sense, he could be considered a freedom fighter.

But, whether one considers the U.S. government bad or good, governments have a right to operate private systems as they relate to defense and national security, and prosecute those who knowingly violate them. Mckinnon knew what he was doing was illegal, and chose to do it anyway. Had he hacked into a hospital database and began collecting private medical information, or hacked into a credit card company to review people's purchasing habits, we would be outraged. It is not hard for me to understand the government's anger on this one, despite the fact that the information he claims to have seen should be in the public arena. It is a tough issue.

He better thank his lucky stars he is from the UK, because I could see the Bush administration pushing for a charge of "treason" if he were from the U.S. - and we all know what that could mean.

I don't really worry about his future though. Given the crime, if he cooperates with the U.S. government, chances are he could walk away with no jail time whatsoever, or a short sentence with legal wrangling that would only last a few years. He is now too high profile to kill, and chances are, someone out in Hollywood is just waiting to buy his story - if not Hollywood, Baliwood, or somewhere - he will end up getting paid in the end.

"Hacked into a private government system, got caught, and doesn't feel as if there should be any punishment for it."

Mis-representing the facts is the best that you can do is it, historycircus??

This is not the issue whatsoever. Gary's position is not that there shouldn't be any punishment for it; it is that the alleged criminal activity took place on British soil and if he were to be charged with a criminal offence it should be under British law in a British court room. There is absolutely no justification for extraditing him to a foreign country to face "justice" there instead of being tried in the country in which the alleged offence occurred.

The Extradition Act 2003 does not require the prosecution (the American authorities, essentially) to provide any evidence against UK citizens at their hearing. That is, there is no longer any requirement for prima facie evidence. This violates centuries' worth of principles of law and civil and human rights.

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?

The Extradition Act 2003 constitutes treason by the British authorities - favouring the demands of foreign powers over the rights of British citizens.
The act came into force on January 1st 2004 BUT it was made retroactive (which is a highly unsual move) to make it apply to Gary McKinnon among others. Making a law retroactive also violates centuries' worth of legal principles & civil/human rights, etc.



"Had he hacked into a hospital database and began collecting private medical information, or hacked into a credit card company to review people's purchasing habits, we would be outraged."

This statement is simply an attempt to muddy the waters. He did not do either of these things and they are completely different in nature to what Gary was doing (and I suspect you mention these two examples to evoke some righteous indignation in anyone reading your post - to have that indignation associated with Gary).
The government, however, continuously does these things for the reasons you described - and yes, the public should be outraged by it!


"He better thank his lucky stars he is from the UK, because I could see the Bush administration pushing for a charge of "treason" if he were from the U.S. - and we all know what that could mean."

He has actually been threatened with being 'fried' by the US authorities. In Britain his actions would have gotten him (if found guilty) six months' community service. In America he is facing 70 years in prison - and he has been threatened with being 'fried'. This alone - the considerable mismatch in punishment and the threat to his life - should have been enough to prevent any question even arising of Gary being extradited. But then the British authorities are committing treason so we shouldn't expect anyone to actually be trying to serve justice here, should we?

TheGhost 12-06-2008 02:55 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 89921)
Current world view collapsing?

That happened long ago.

I will watch all the video's..(already seen the masked guy) just as soon as you read all of my 5800 posts at OMF...fair enough?

You don't know me or what my world view is, until you do.

To make it easier on you, just read this thread

http://lucianarchy.proboards21.com/i...ead=288&page=1

I started it a year ago.

But this discussion is off topic here.

If you want to start a thread about what kind of legal system you want, be my guest.

Better hurry though, time is short here


I will watch all the video's..(already seen the masked guy) just as soon as you read all of my 5800 posts at OMF...fair enough?

What on earth are you on, dude? Why would anyone want to be educated in all things murnut?? Educating yourself in the machinations of the legal system that you are under would be pretty valuable. Educating myself in all things murnut would not serve any useful purpose.

What do you have against learning about the legal system? Why do you refuse to take it upon yourself to learn how to deflect and defeat their fraudulent activity? It is for your own education and enlightenment.
What education or enlightenment would I gain in reading all 5800 of your posts? Do you consider yourself that important?

murnut 12-06-2008 02:59 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Haha,,,surely The Ghost has never misrepresented the facts.
Quote:

it is that the alleged criminal activity took place on British soil
The damage took place in America


Quote:

they are completely different in nature to what Gary was doing
Not really...hacking for what ever reason is wrong.

When the ufo community justifies these illegal actions, it is no different than any group justifying it's illegal actions.

Quote:

He has actually been threatened with being 'fried' by the US authorities.
Now who is evoking some righteous indignation?????

murnut 12-06-2008 03:07 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGhost (Post 91575)
I will watch all the video's..(already seen the masked guy) just as soon as you read all of my 5800 posts at OMF...fair enough?

What on earth are you on, dude? Why would anyone want to be educated in all things murnut?? Educating yourself in the machinations of the legal system that you are under would be pretty valuable. Educating myself in all things murnut would not serve any useful purpose.

What do you have against learning about the legal system? Why do you refuse to take it upon yourself to learn how to deflect and defeat their fraudulent activity? It is for your own education and enlightenment.
What education or enlightenment would I gain in reading all 5800 of your posts? Do you consider yourself that important?

You made personal statements about me based no knowledge.

Quote:

This is for your education and enlightenment, murnut. What are you afraid of, your current world view collapsing (where everything legal is moral and good and everything illegal is immoral and bad, lol, and the govenment is good and just wants what's best for you)?
On face value, which is the same that you judge me on, your video's propose the net effect of anarchy.

Try following the advice of those videos, and see how far that "enlightenment" takes you.

TheGhost 12-06-2008 03:23 PM

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 91576)
Haha,,,surely The Ghost has never misrepresented the facts.


The damage took place in America




Not really...hacking for what ever reason is wrong.

When the ufo community justifies these illegal actions, it is no different than any group justifying it's illegal actions.



Now who is evoking some righteous indignation?????

"Now who is evoking some righteous indignation?????"
I'm talking about legal consequences for criminal activities. We do not have the death penalty in Britain (except for treason - so the people who supported the Extradition Act 2003 are skating on pretty thin ice). The point being that when it is threatened our normal legal procedure is to not allow the extradition to go ahead. Normal legal procedures have long since been thrown out the window in Gary McKinnon's case, though.


"The damage took place in America"
This is irrelevant. The alleged crime took place in another country.


"hacking for what ever reason is wrong"
There you go again with your childish, naive argument that legal things are good and moral and illegal things are bad and immoral.
The examples historycircus cited are substantially different to what Gary did.


"it is no different than any group justifying it's illegal actions"
Do you think Nelson Mandela should still be in prison for terrorism? I could go on with other examples but I would like an answer to this particular one.


Do you think the actions of the Nazis or Communists were okay because they were legal?


If the US government made it illegal to even ask questions about UFOs/ETs would you stop asking because your government 'knows best'?


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