Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Hi, Murmut:

We'll always welcome intelligent, well-informed passion here, but regardless of your passion to criticize Gary, and your presumed intelligence, you don't seem to be well-informed.

I've not yet read every post of yours here, but I believe I get the gist. You've certainly got your teeth into this for some reason that is not clear to me.

As best I know, Gary has never personally made any of the claims (re his legal situation) that you seem to be assigning to him. These are the conjectures of other pundits in the UFO community.

Gary is legally prohibited from using a computer. He can't even send an e-mail himself. He does not post on any forums. He does not manage his own website. As best I understand, his mother, Janis, does that.

It's legitimate to debate the interesting issues, but not to criticize him personally. That's way out of order. It sounds as if you've never seen a single interview he gave, which is puzzling because I assume you would have informed yourself well before posting.

As a separate issue, Gary has no proof of anything which he saw or read on screen. He was using a dial-up modem and was not able to download anything (although I believe he did try, but it took too long.) He readily admits he broke the law.

I have two questions:

1) Can you help us understand where you're coming from?

2) (as Einstein would have called a thought experiment) - If Gary was here, what would you like to ask him? (Between us, we MAY be able to answer fairly on his behalf.)

Very best wishes, Bill

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I would like to ask him if he holds any bargaining chips.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I would ask him:
If he, or another one could make sketches of what he saw.

But probably, that only will happen after his trial.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

As best I know, he doesn't... except that Dan Burisch and Marci McDowell have stated that they will testify under penalty of perjury about the details of the secret space program - if called to do so.

That's a real wild card that might actually cut both ways... it COULD mean that it never goes to trial (i.e. gets delayed forever).

To King Lear's question: the only images he saw, as best I recall, were 'unairbrushed' lunar photos. They were clearly in two folders: the original images, and the same images when 'treated'. [My paraphrase - I don't recall what Gary said the folder names were.]

He found one original and was trying to download it on his 56k modem, but was interrupted and never completed the download. It was a very large file.

Very best, Bill

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Dear Bill,
I don't rember if it was in your interview or the others he gave on tv, but he mentioned to have seen a kind of space station, of that he was pretty much sure that it wasn't earth-made.


Something like that:
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2...schiffefp3.jpg

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Hi Bill

Great site you have here.

I am a great admirer of what you and Kerry have done, are doing, and will do.

By the way...it is murNut, with an N.

I am disappointed that you would make a comment about me being uninformed, without reading my other posts.

I hope that Gary does as little time as possible, or none at all.

I don't think this is likely though.

If you would read some of my other posts on this matter, you would see that my main criticism is of Gary's supporters...speaking it would seem on his behalf.


I don't believe the ends justifies the means.

Some here do.

The circle must be broken, IMO, other wise how are we any different than those we despise?

I do have some problems, with some of the misinformation that has been floated by those that have identified themselves as Gary supporters.

Gary is not a terrorist, and was offered a fair plea arrangement in my opinion.

He declined, and this is his right.

If the issue is that the UK should not allow Gary to be extradited, that is a different matter.

I have no real opinion...other than Gary has had his day in court, 3 times on this issue, and lost.

Are all of these judges in on the conspiracy to get Gary?

Yes, I have seen multiple interviews of Gary, and read many news accounts.

If I am being asked if I believe Gary is credible, no, sadly I don't.

I don't believe secret ufo/space files are on computer networks.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

The biggest secret in the history of the world on a network?

I just don't think it is logical to believe this is true.

I am not aware that I have criticized him personally.

Maybe I questioned some of his decisions?

I have no questions for Gary.

Many have posted that Gary is a hero.

I can't say I agree.

The ufo community has hero's that don't break the law.

What about those that break their security oath, you might say?

Who has been prosecuted for this?

Gary's supporter making wild claims, hurts the credibility of the ufo community as a whole.

I believe only the best cases, that have the best witnesses, with supporting documentation, should be the cases that are debated in the public.


I feel bad for Gary, but time to man up.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I'm astonished of the manner how many energy murnut does expense on this thread.:yikes:
Posting yards-long posts and ongoing to criticise Gary's behaviour and our understanding of law.

There are only a few explenations:
- He has to be a Neo-Con
- an Ex-CIA agent
- an Ex-NASA employee who's computer got hacked and "damaged" and he disgraced
- or he is just a guy who's banking account got hacked by Gary;)


And Yoda says:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 13928) "I do have some problems, with some of the misinformation that has been floated by those that have identified themselves as Gary supporters. Gary... was offered a fair plea arrangement in my opinion. He declined, and this is his right."...

Dear Murnut and all

Was it a fair plea?

The question of 'a fair plea' and the notion that it was guarantied in writing, something you repeat ad infini with an air of authority, is where you are grossly misinformed in my view.

I would be very interested if you could provide any documented EVIDENCE to support this claim. Quoting the House of Lords decision, is not sufficient. and here is why:

When Gary was offered the plea he was inclined to take it. However when he asked for all the promises offered, to be guarantied in writing, the prosecutors refused. Within the bundle of documents submitted to the courts, there is a letter from the prosecutors, which clearly states that they reserve the right to declare Gary a terrorist and reserve the right to prosecute and lock him up ‘tanamo style. This letter was part of the evidence submitted to the house of lords hearing, it was never refuted as authentic, and it was discussed as part of the hearing, but despite it all, there is no mention of it in the HL ruling.

With this information in mind what do you think - Is that a fair plea?

Can we trust this people?

Lets look at another similar case, that of Kevin David Mitnick - he was left to rot in jail for four and a half years pre-trial, until he agreed to a plea! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick

In other words there is a great chance, that there is never going to be any court case, UNLESS there is a guilty plea!

Should one plea if s/he did not do the crime they are accused of?

This is a huge question. What would you do? (question to all)

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Or just the thought police paid to post?
:bash:

In any case I am grateful, as I said before, it gives me an opportunity to talk about it taking it a point at a time...
:trumpet:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I was responding to Bill Ryan.

He asked me to reply and I have.

I respect Bill and owed that to him.

I am none of the above.

Plea arrangements are never guaranteed, in the US, they must be approved by the court.

But they are approved as written, 99% of the time.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Just in case you missed it!

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Thanks for proving my point....he did 5 years...not 70.

Gary has admitted the hacking.

When I get a speeding ticket, I pay the fine

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

So why again was he not charged by the UK?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Hi people...with all due respect to gary i have got to say this thread is becoming ridiculous.
I think the majority of people (please shout if u think otherwise) on here and in general who are ''aware'' actually want to see this man not extradited either unjustly or unfairly...which seems to be what is happening.
Murnut, i mean no disrespect in any way but i find ur ongoing posts and arguments quite repetitive and dismayingly suspicious. I am by no means hailing gary as a hero nor am i ignoring the ''real'' heroes in the ufo community but one has to ask if u can not see how unjust this case has gone then one can only assume it is a matter of ur awareness on gary mckinnon's case and/or the global/universal/multiversal issues and tptb in general. It is a struggle to see how u can persistantly argue in somewhat of an inhumanely, negative manner and still wish for the best result for gary in his case.

Again i stress, i mean no disrespect or offense to u or anybody and whole-heartedly apologise if iv done so...

Whatever happens to gary is happening to us...we are all we are

peace
bananaman

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

To me, this is civil disobedience.

Rosa Parks was arrested for civil disobedience.

If we never break the unconstitutional laws and we always stay within the confines of laws that harm other humans... we are no better than those who would oppress us.

I am not saying that this is on the same level as civil rights, but they know and they aren't telling US... the people.

The Governments keep secrets from us, the people. The same people who they are supposed to be representing.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

What have I suggested that is inhumane?


Govts have secrets, govts will always have secrets.

I don't like it, but it is a fact.

Sorry my opinion have offended.

Apparently, my opinion is not the "approved" opinion.

Do you realize this is exactly what the "other" side does as well?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Are you sure this is the case you want to use as an example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_VYWefmy34

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Ok guys We've had some very valid arguments, both for, and against the way Gary is being treated, but now we appear to be going round in circles, and I think the thread has run it's course.

So, I've created a Poll which will run for 24 hours.

http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=2327

There are 2 options:

• Close the thread, we agree to disagree, time to move on
• Leave the thread open, more discussion is needed

I cant stress enough that this is in no way any form of censorship.

Please vote guys, it's your choice :original:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Any slave with the audacity to question the masters is sure to be whipped.


It is terrible and sad but such is the nature of the Babylon Slavery System.




Rasta free the people
Over hills and valleys too
Don't let them fool you
Don't believe one minute that they are with you
Jah free the people
Over hills and valleys too
Don't let them fool you
Don't believe for a minute that they are with you

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

don't close the thread!
closing this thread is like giving up on Gary. I'm sure the guys calling Gary a 'criminal' would love that.

They can put 1 cop on here to ruin a thread and it's closed? that's making it real easy for 'em.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I think it is a good idea to keep it open.
The information on the thread is valuable and informative.
The fact that there is no agreement, serves the exploration of the many issues this case presents.

I say keep it on!

However I would ask that we debate it in a mature way, repeating oneself and shouting loud does not make someone right.:original:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Musado....

I end posting in this thread.


Heaven forbid I should question the ufo "masters"

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

love the drama eh?

crazyness.

why should it even matter to anyone if this thread is here?

if your tired of it.. stop clicking on the link for it.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Sorry...one more

Steve Bass says it better than me.

http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0908/Ufology.html

New thread - Gary Mckinnon | News and Call for Action
 

A new thread - Gary Mckinnon | News and Call for Action
For those who are interested in the latest news about Gary's case,
or wish to help Gary by providing useful information,
or joining in protest,
let this space be the hub for this purpose.
http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=2340

Gary McKinnon Protest
4:00 pm, Sunday, 28 September
Outside the US Embassy
Grosvener Sq. London

A letter from Janis (Gary's mum)
Tuesday, September 16, 2008

Dear All

Any day now, my son, Gary McKinnon, could face extradition from Britain to the United States where he would stand trial for hacking into US government computers and could face a sentence of sixty years (Charged with 7 counts, proposed sentence Ten Years Per Count)

Gary has recently been diagnosed as suffering from Lifetime Aspergers Syndrome, which is why I and his family and his many friends and supporters around the world are arguing that Gary should be allowed to stay in the U.K and face the courts in the country where the offence, if offence there was, was committed.

The United States authorities waited two years to call for Gary's arrest because of a then unratified, unsigned extradition treaty between the two countries which would make it easier for them to have a British citizen sent for trial in the US. Yet, when he was first arrested in London, Gary was told he would probably get a sentence of community service for his hacking activities. He naively admitted computer misuse before he had engaged a lawyer and without a lawyer even being present. We were still unaware that he had Aspergers Syndrome.

Gary gained no leniency for his honesty and on the contrary, his extradition has been relentlessly pursued by the British and American authorities, despite the crown prosecution service (CPS) declining to prosecute Gary in Britain. This attitude will hardly encourage British citizens to come clean regarding any crimes they may have committed. If no leniency or consideration is given when a person accused of a crime immediately and openly tells the truth, there is little point in them admitting to anything.

The CPS refusal to prosecute Gary here was clearly done to allow the Americans to arrest him two and a half years later, once the one-sided extradition treaty was introduced and then made retrospective. In addition, in order to indict Gary, the US authorities had to claim a specific amount of financial damage. Gary has always denied causing damage and without proof of such, the U.S could not prosecute him. Then, just a month ago the U.S prosecutors stated in an interview, that once Gary was extradited, the most difficult thing to prove would be the damage!

Several weeks ago the goal posts were changed yet again when the U.S brought in a new law whereby no proof of damage was required where military computers were concerned. For the American law to then have been conveniently changed at such a crucial time, so that proof of damage is no longer required speaks volumes and does little to give us any faith in such a "legal" system. (Gary has always denied the alleged damage)

Surely as a vulnerable adult with Aspergers Syndrome, Gary should be allowed to stay in the U.K and face the justice system of the country where his alleged offence took place. So why is Gary's Extradition still being sought? He admitted computer mis-use six an a half years ago and the U.S have changed the law so that they now have no need to prove the alleged damage. So why is there now any need for a trial?

Gary could be sentenced to serve an appropriate time in an open prison in the U.K

If we can somehow keep up the pressure, the Home Office just might rule in gary's favour, as they are now apparently re-considering his case.

If this happened Gary & Lucy (and us "Janis & Wilson") could all have our lives back again.

Every morning for six and a half years we have woken up gripped by fear at the prospect of Gary being extradited and spending most of his life in a hard line U.S prison, or even dying there.

On most days it's difficult to wake up and put one foot in front of the other and this intense long term stress and fear has taken its toll of us all for the past six and a half years. This in itself has been a sentence of continual Torment.

Please try and come to the protest and get everyone you can to attend, as it just might change things for the better and at the moment the only hope we have is to draw attention to the injustice, extremely flawed treaty and proposed disproportionate sentence

This is not just about Gary; it's about the fact that any U.K citizen can now be extradited to America on the strength of an allegation alone. These allegations are presented to our courts as Facts and accepted as such by our courts and Law Lords without the accused having any opportunity to challenge or rebut the allegations. Our courts and Law Lords have publicly pronounced Gary guilty of Damage to military computer systems without him having the benefit of a trial in which to challenge the allegations. This has severely prejudiced any trial Gary might have in the future.

This treaty was signed in secret under the "Queens Prerogative" by David Blunket a day prior to Parliamentary recess, so that no debate by Parliament was able to take place.

This so called treaty was not signed by the U.S and despite the fact that it did not come into effect until April 2007, it was made retrospective in 2004 to allow them to request the Extradition of my son Gary and others without any proof having to be shown. A Prima Facie case was effectively dispensed with.

How can a treaty by its very nature be one sided and how can it be made retrospective?

The Nat West Three, British business men and white collar workers have been extradited under this one sided treaty without any proof having to be provided, although Politicians were told that the treaty was to be used for Terrorists.

We used to have a statute of limitations in this country and I don't know when that changed.

Many Thanks for the support given to us by friends and compassionate strangers who have become friends. Your help is appreciated more than you could ever know.

Yours Sincerely

Janis (Gary's mum)

Note Pinochet and others accused of extremely serious crimes lost their legal battles - Pinochet in fact lost twice in the Lords before the Secretary of State intervened at the last minute (Jack Straw ˆ who also prevented the extradition of Roisin McAliskey to Germany for an allegation of IRA terrorism) to prevent removal from the UK and end the extradition process. McAliskey was on the grounds of mental health and Pinochet I believe primarily physical health. However they were viewed at the time as political decisions in sensitive areas.

Gary's crime of computer misuse is so miniscule in comparison to either of the two cases just mentioned.

Re: New thread - Gary Mckinnon | News and Call for Action
 

I cant believe people here and at other sites are debating Garys actions. Garys actions pale into insignificance in comparison to the way ours and the American governments have changed and manipulated laws in their favour. Not our favour. Theirs.

Standing up for Gary is standing up to the nonsense that has been ruling over us for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Anyone who decides to think the right thing to do is send him to America is totally beyond reckoning in my view. Can you not see the laws have not been working in our favour for so long. Madness

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Just a couple of points...

1) He confessed... he should have plead 'not guilty' then they would have had to bring proof... bad move on his part

2) WHY did Britain give in so easy on this case? THAT needs to be looked at... have they done this before? If not why this time?

3) Gary's computer skills... "He should be thanked and given a job..."
For what? because he randomly looked for open password computers?

I am willing to bet that at least half of you out there right now do not have a password on your computer... I bet even more do not have a password on your wireless internet or network... (6 of my neighbors don't... anyone can use their connection within a several block radius... ever wonder why your connection is SLOW? :lol3: Why pay for WIFI when your on the road when you can just 'hop on' )

I will also bet that many of you out there if you have a home security system are still using the installer default of 1234 or 12369 for ADT systems (Yup better go change it RIGHT NOW )

Why? because people are LAZY and creatures of habit... All Gary did was use this weakness and found someone who was stupid to leave their terminal online when they were not at the desk and had no password.

On top of that he did not d/l stuff... he viewed it online knowing full well that anyone walking by the terminal could see what he was doing.

This is not skill... this should not be rewarded. 75 years? Heck we don't even give murderers that much...

SO WE ARE MISSING SOMETHING HERE

4) I see a lot of talk about accessing secret government computers...

Look... the internet WE use was designed by DARPA and then given to the public because they had something BETTER... there is NO WAY to access the Secret stuff from the regular internet... ONLY if some idiot took some work 'home' with him and stored it on a PC at work would you find anything... and you can bet THAT person is in Gitmo :bleh: And that would be an internal matter... you would NEVER see it on the news...

The OTHER nets are...

NIPRNET... for below top secret but sensitive and confidential traffic
SIPRNET... for secret

If you are brave enough and want to look at the front door go here..

NIC dot MIL Its okay they won't bite, but they will know you knocked... I did not post a direct link as a lot of dot mil sites play havoc with threads... merely opening the thread on a link will cause a 'ping' . You will see what is required to get in... This is the ONLY portal to SIPRNET on the internet and requires a DoD password AND calling from a dot mil computer... Go look... but don't be stupid

The top secret stuff is handled by JWICS

Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System (JWICS)

The Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System (JWICS pronounced jaywicks) is a system of interconnected computer networks used by the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of State to transmit classified information (up to and including information classified TOP SECRET and SCI) by packet switching over the TCP/IP protocols in a secure environment. It also provides services such as hypertext documents and electronic mail. In other words, the JWICS is the DoD’s classified version of the civilian Internet together with its counterpart, the SIPRNet.

The US Marines Portal is Here... front page is accessible
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sit.../JWICS.html#sd

Bear in mind that most likely none of these links will work from OUTSIDE the USA :bleh:

There is one higher... usually only referred to as "the Global"... No I won't give out any more on that one... some dogs are best left sleeping :wink2:

5) I hear a lot of UFO talk... what Gary found was a list of non terrestrial officers and an 'alleged' photo of one of our 'other' spaceships nothing to do with UFO's but to do with a project that is so secret it's hard to even find clues...

Every one of us researchers would love to get our hands on such evidence... and we seek for it every day in documents at .mil sites... all publicly accessable to be sure... and not trying to sneak in any back doors ( errmmm ya...)

If 'they' ever wanted to 'get' one of us they could simply leave a sensitive document lying around for us to 'find'... track the IP and kick in your door because they KNOW you now have a restricted file on your computer...

So that means there is a LOT more to this than we currently know...

One other caveat.... all skeptics scream for proof of this secret space program... yet if it IS secret... merely possessing a document that proves it is a treasonable offense... something to think about

And you can scream all you want about the EVIL governments but until you are ready to grab arms and oppose them... it is a truth that they have all the cool toys like stealth planes and smart bombs that a kid with a joystick in Area 51 can fly right into your bedroom window...



Conclusion...

THERE IS MORE TO THIS THAN WE KNOW

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

WOW That's two threads in a row I hear the words "Closing thread" and one was deleted?

I left another popular board because they started doing that and deleting certain posts as well...

I hope I don't see a trend here...

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Well informed & well written zorgon, AND the most compelling reason I've seen so far to keep this thread alive :naughty:

Re: More than meets the eye...Gary Mckinnon
 

A good article...

Yes, good post zorgon.

And for the record, if we/they start closing threads I'm also outta here.

Kerry

***
McKinnon a 'scapegoat for Pentagon insecurity'
US military still wide open to attack, says reformed hacker
By John Leyden -- September 2008
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09...view_analysis/
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
As accused Pentagon hacker Gary McKinnon hopes
against hope to avoid being extradited to the US,
another reformed military systems meddler
considers his own case - and how different
the outcome was.

McKinnon is probably days away from extradition.
Only a last minute plea to the Home Secretary
"Wacky" Jacqui Smith - based on McKinnon's recent
diagnosis with Asperger Syndrome - now stands
between the Scot and a US trial for hacking into
US government and military systems. Friends and
family staged a demonstration outside the
Home Office on Tuesday in a bid to draw attention
to McKinnon's plight.

The handling of McKinnon's case is in marked
contrast to how US authorities handled a
similar one ten years ago. Like McKinnon,
reformed computer hacker Mathew Bevan was
charged with breaking into US military
computer systems. Bevan was also curious
about searching for evidence that the
US military had harvested technology from
crashed UFOs. Bevan's alleged crimes were
cited as examples of cyberterrorism at
Senate hearings in 1996.

But no attempt was ever made to extradite
Bevan to the US. Instead he was prosecuted
in the UK. The case eventually fell apart
after 18 months, when prosecutors decided
not to proceed.

Bevan put the legal fight behind him and
has since gone on to become an ethical
hacker and security consultant.
Speaking exclusively to El Reg, Bevan
said McKinnon is being used in a political
game that has more to do with securing
funds than deterring or preventing attacks.

"Clearly, lessons have not been learned
since I breached similar systems and as
I have always suggested - perhaps
stopping the intrusions is not the goal
of the administration," Bevan said.
"Tacitly allowing access to machines
by ensuring that default passwords or
in fact access methods without passwords
is suggestive of a system that really
does not care too much about many of
the machines connected to it."

Bevan questions why Windows PCs on US military
networks are connected to the internet via
direct IPs. Thousands of attackers regularly
use the same remote access port accessed
during McKinnon's hack, but little or no
action has been taken in their cases,
Bevan adds.

McKinnon has said that many other hackers
had gained access to the same systems he
was accessing, questioning why US authorities
singled him out for prosecution. The fact
that McKinnon did nothing to disguise his
tracks and lived in a country with a friendly
extradition regime probably has a fair bit
to do with this.

Bevan supports McKinnon's contention that
he was far from alone in rooting around
US military systems. "You ask any military
hacker about the machines they broke in to
and they will tell you they were not the
only people on those systems. Of course,
they weren't the only people, as there
were great numbers of people whiling
away their time hacking computers."

Pork barrel ploy

McKinnon, according to Bevan,
was far more than simply unlucky.

"Why is it that only a tiny number of
those people ever face prosecution?
It is clearly not because the others
cannot be found. You cannot believe that
out of so many people, Gary just happened
to be caught."

McKinnon is being used as a scapegoat in
a bid to secure extra funding to protect
US military networks, according to Bevan,
who reckons a commercial organisation
would never get away with such trickery.

"I think it's all about timing and whether
or not the hacker will make a good scapegoat
whilst allowing the administration to request
further money. The fear machine can keep
churning out propaganda as per normal,
but don't expect those machines to actually
get better security. They are not businesses,
have no shareholders and therefore do not
have to answer to the same stringent rules
and tests that the computer systems of
corporations would."

Bevan compared hacking attacks to an
infestation by pests. Both stem from
a failure to follow basic housekeeping
rules, he argued.

"My cynical side believes that those
'pesky hackers' are treated just like
any bug infestation, the odd one or
two or even a handful is not much of
an issue until the place becomes overrun.
It is then that you can call in the
exterminators and make a big fuss about
the problem, of course it never addresses
that the usual problem with an infestation
is someone has not been keeping their
place tidy. You leave scraps around for
rats to find and in a short time you
will have many, many more rats sniffing
around for the goodies."

With such lax security, the US authorities
are lucky that McKinnon only had peaceful
intentions in mind, Bevan noted.

"Gary is a self-confessed stoner and
perpetrated the 'biggest military hack
of all time' whilst completely wasted.
This is clearly a sign of how lax the
security of these systems was. If Gary
had been clear minded and deliberate
about what he wanted to achieve and was
a malicious person rather than the
pacifist he is - where exactly would
we be now?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09...view_analysis/

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Ok guys, the poll is now closed, results below:

Close the thread, we agree to disagree, time to move on

• 40.63%

Leave the thread open, more discussion is needed

• 59.38%

SO, I'm very pleased to say, that by an overwhelming majority the thread stays OPEN! :naughty:

Thanks to everyone that took the time to vote :thumb_yello:

Now let's have lot's more well argued post's like zorgon's above!

[EDIT - Thread is now stickied so it stays in plain view]

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

N.L.P. thought:

I have to ask anyone why the title "poor Gary" was used? That's simply setting up for more poverty thinking.... I just wonder sometimes. Because there is no poor. Its simply choosing to hold ourselves back by using thoughts like that.

Ok, off the box of soap....

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

Atama and mike jetson are straight to the point with this issue-it stands outright to me that this is a media exercise by UK and US govts. in 'setting an example in what happens to those who don't play by the rules'.These govts. should scrutinise their own actions before casting the first stone.Gary's actions are very pale compared to that of the warmongers who wish him interned.I hope that the U.K. judicial system finds some measure of balance in this case and restore some sense of sanity and hope to the legal system.Not that there's much there initially!lol.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

The courts and governments are reflections of consciousness. We don't change consciousness through voting. ALTHOUGH voting is a reflection.... and expression, if you will, of your thoughts. We express it outwardly from the state of change INTERNALLY.

Namaste~

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

It can also be a vicious circle-the govts. and courts feed their consciousness back into society,an en masse break away from this circle is what's required.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I so agree with you on this one 100% !!!!! I felt the same way when I found this
thread a while after it was open.

The title of any thread is determined by the person who opened it, when they did,
and I am not sure if you can alter it later on, other then to ask the moderators or
administrator to change it.

Whoever opened this thread chose this title...

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

What a great thread, and good post as well zorgon. I was wondering who made the quote that went something like, "it is more important to do the right thing even if it is against the rules of the establishment then it is to go along with it knowing its wrong." That is not even close to the quote but I figured someone would know what I am talking about. I think it could be one of the trancendentalist authors or maybe Einstine.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
 

I am only mildly familar with Gary's legal predicament, but it is my understanding he has been accused of hacking into secured US government and/or quasi-governmental computers alledgedly in violation of federal law.

I suspect that he will eventually plea to the charges and spend sometime in a federal prison, before being send back to the UK, after they have made a sufficient example of him. The vast majority of all criminal and civil cases resolve by pleas and settlements--80 to 90% or so of all cases end this way.

In the relatively unlikely event that he does go to trial, I doubt very much that the court will permit any evidence of the contents of the computers and the substance of what Gary claims to have found to be admitted into evidence. Indeed, before trial the prosecution will most likely obtain an order from the judge excluding any such evidence on the ground that it is irrelevant. They will do this by way of a motion in limne. Such a motion is filed by litigants asking the court to exclude evidence that is irrelevant, immaterial, cumulative, or unduly prejudicial in the sense that it appeals to passion, prejudice and bias, rather than sense and reason.

I have not looked at the laws under which he is charged, but I will bet you that the "crimes" he is charged with committing are committed by the act of hacking, and in no way is guilt or innocence a function of what you find when you hack. (Think about that for a minute.) Thus, what is found will be ruled irrelevant to establish the elements of the crime or any defenses thereto, and the federal judge (his case will be or already is in federal court) will rule that any such evidence is inadmissible.

For that reason no one, including Dan Burich, will be permitted to testify as to what Gary found in the computers nor give any factual testimony or expert opinion as to the truth or falsity of the contents of the computers.

The powers-that-be will, therefore, have no need to keep the media out of the trial, or assert national security, state secrects or some other legal fiction to keep the truth concerning the contents of the computers out of evidence, because the court will not permit the contents or substance of what Gary discovered in the computers into evidence, having determined that it is irrelevant to prove the elements of the crime or to prove Gary's innocence.

I'm sorry folks but, in my humble opinion, Gary's case will not provide the opportunity to prove that the government engages in black ops or is aware of extraterrestrial life forms who are in contact with we mere and mortal Earthlings, any more than the few cases filed by family members of the victims of 9/11 proved that 9/11 was an inside job. Albeit, the reasons the latter cases failed to get to the truth of 9/11 (immunity, failure to state a calim etc...) are different than why Gary's case will fail to get to the truth about alien life forms and visitations or government black ops.

Regards,

Stevan Looney