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- Project Camelot General Discussion (http://projectavalon.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=16)

- - Poor Gary Mckinnon (http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=585)

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 4337)

Gary has been charged with a crime.

He has admitted he hacked the computers

But the evidence has not yet been presented.

Gary was offered 6 mos in US prison and the balance to be serve in the UK.
=============================================

10. With those few introductory paragraphs it is necessary to turn in a little detail to the facts of the case.

The appellant’s alleged criminality

11. Using his home computer the appellant, through the internet, identified US Government network computers with an open Microsoft Windows connection and from those extracted the identities of certain administrative accounts and associated passwords. Having gained access to those accounts he installed unauthorised remote access and administrative software called “remotely anywhere” that enabled him to access and alter data upon the American computers at any time and without detection by virtue of the programme masquerading as a Windows operating system. Once “remotely anywhere” was installed, he then installed software facilitating both further compromises to the computers and also the concealment of his own activities. Using this software he was able to scan over 73,000 US Government computers for other computers and networks susceptible to similar compromise. He was thus able to lever himself from network to network and into a number of significant Government computers in different parts of the USA.

12. The 97 computers the appellant accessed were: 53 army computers, including computers based in Virginia and Washington that control the army’s military district of Washington network and are used in furtherance of national defence and security; 26 navy computers, including US Naval Weapons Station Earle, New Jersey, which was responsible for replenishing munitions and supplies for the deployed Atlantic fleet; 16 NASA computers; one Department of Defense computer; and one US Air Force computer.

13. Having gained access to these computers the appellant deleted data from them including critical operating system files from nine computers, the deletion of which shut down the entire US Army’s Military District of Washington network of over 2000 computers for 24 hours, significantly disrupting Governmental functions; 2,455 user accounts on a US Army computer that controlled access to an Army computer network, causing these computers to reboot and become inoperable; and logs from computers at US Naval Weapons Station Earle, one of which was used for monitoring the identity, location, physical condition, staffing and battle readiness of Navy ships, deletion of these files rendering the Base’s entire network of over 300 computers inoperable at a critical time immediately following 11 September 2001 and thereafter leaving the network vulnerable to other intruders.

14. The appellant also copied data and files onto his own computers, including operating system files containing account names and encrypted passwords from 22 computers comprising: 189 files from US Army computers, 35 files from US Navy computers (including some 950 passwords from server computers at Naval Weapons Station Earle); and six files from NASA computers.

15. The appellant’s conduct was alleged to be intentional and calculated to influence the US Government by intimidation and coercion. It damaged computers by impairing their integrity, availability and operation of programmes, systems, information and data, rendering them unreliable. The cost of repair was alleged to total over $700,000.

16. Analysis of the appellant’s home computer confirmed these allegations. During his interviews under caution, moreover, he admitted responsibility (although not that he had actually caused damage). He stated that his targets were high level US Army, Navy and Air Force computers and that his ultimate goal was to gain access to the US military classified information network. He admitted leaving a note on one army computer reading:

“US foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days . . . It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year . . . I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels . . .”

The plea-bargaining process (including discussion of repatriation)

17. In August 2002 the appellant instructed Ms Karen Todner, senior partner of Kaim Todner, to act as his solicitor. In November 2002 Ms Todner learned that an American prosecutor, Scott Stein, had applied for a formal indictment against the appellant and telephoned him to register her interest. There followed a number of communications during which Mr Stein indicated how much better a deal would be available to the appellant if he went voluntarily to the United States and pleaded guilty than if he contested extradition and denied the charges. Some of these communications were by telephone, some in writing, others at meetings with Mr Ed Gibson, the FBI legal attaché at the American Embassy in London. It is sufficient to set out the substance of what was said at the final such meeting on 14 April 2003, attended by Ms Todner and Mr Edmund Lawson QC for the appellant, and by Mr Stein, his superior Mr Hanly, and Mr Gibson as representatives of the US Government. I take this from a recent witness statement made by Mr Lawson dated 6 June 2008. (A broadly similar account taken from statements made by Ms Todner is set out in the Divisional Court’s judgment which also contains a detailed account of the earlier communications.)

18. Mr Stein confirmed that he was authorised to offer the appellant a deal in return for not contesting extradition and for agreeing to plead guilty to two of the counts laid against him of “fraud and related activity in connection with computers". On this basis it was likely that a sentence of 3-4 years (more precisely 37-46 months), probably at the shorter end of that bracket, would be passed and that after serving 6-12 months in the US, the appellant would be repatriated to complete his sentence in the UK. In this event his release date would be determined by reference to the UK’s remission rules namely, in the case of a sentence not exceeding four years, release at the discretion of the parole board after serving half the nominal sentence, release as of right at the two-thirds point. On that basis, he might serve a total of only some eighteen months to two years.

19. The predicted sentence of 3-4 years was based upon sentencing guidelines themselves based upon a points system. The prosecution would recommend to the court a particular points level which the court would be likely to accept. Similarly the prosecutor would recommend to the section of the US Department of Justice responsible for administering the Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons that the appellant be transferred and this recommendation too was in practice likely to be accepted.

20. If, however, the appellant chose not to cooperate, and were then extradited and convicted, he might expect to receive a sentence of 8-10 years, possibly longer, and would not be repatriated to the UK for any part of it. He would accordingly serve the whole sentence in a US prison (possibly high security) with at best some 15% remission.

21. Mr Lawson clearly recalls the prospect of repatriation being stated to depend upon the appellant’s application for transfer being supported by the prosecution. If the support were withheld as it would be if extradition was contested, there was said to be no prospect of repatriation, a refusal by the Department of Justice being unreviewable in the US courts.

22. The proposed “deal” was conditional upon the appellant entering into a form of Plea Agreement, a lengthy document including the provision in para 4 that:

“the defendant is aware that the defendant’s sentence will be imposed in accordance with the Sentencing Guidelines and Policy Statements. The defendant is aware that the Court has jurisdiction and authority to impose any sentence within the statutory maximum set for the offense (s) to which the defendant pleads guilty. The defendant is aware that the Court has not yet determined a sentence. The defendant is also aware that any estimate of the probable sentencing range under the sentencing guidelines that the defendant may have received from the defendant’s counsel, the United States, or the probation office, is a prediction, not a promise, and is not binding on the United States, the probation office, or the Court. The United States makes no promise or representation concerning what sentence the defendant will receive, and the defendant cannot withdraw a guilty plea based upon the actual sentence.”

The Plea Agreement included a further term in para 12 that the US Attorney’s Offices respectively for the Eastern District of Virginia and the District of New Jersey “will not oppose the defendant’s application to transfer any sentence imposed by the Court made pursuant to the Council of Europe Convention".

23. Subsequent to the Divisional Court’s judgment but prior to Mr Lawson’s statement an affidavit was sworn by Robert Wiechering on behalf of the US Attorney’s Offices for both districts stating that they “will not oppose any prisoner transfer application that may be made by Gary McKinnon (if extradited and convicted) based, in whole or in part, on his refusal to waive or consent to extradition from the United Kingdom.”

24. Following the meeting of 14 April 2003 Ms Todner took advice from an American defense lawyer and, subsequently, the appellant declined the “deal".

http://www.publications.parliament.u...0/mckinn-1.htm

Now whose fault is this?

Gary refused the deal.

At what point is Gary responsible for his own actions?

Maybe it is not a matter of fault. Maybe it is not as black and white as we think. There are several levels of grey here.

Is it possible that Gary is holding out in the hopes that eventually more will be revealed about what is on those computers and what the controllers are upto.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

If that was true...he would have come to the States...instead of releasing false info about the charges he faces....and trying to avoid the extradition be any means.

He will not go to Guantanamo.

He does not face the death penalty.

He will be tried in open court.

He will not be tried by a Military Tribunal.

He is not being treated as an Enemy combatant.

He passed on 3 years...6mos in the US...the balance in the UK..probably a total of 18mos.

Do any of you out there wish that Gary fights these charges and face the maximum penalty...of 60-70 years?

Or should he plead...he has admitted guilt at this point. He should cut the best deal he can.

Many Ufo people seem to think he should fight.

This is not in Gary's best interest.

Too many have given Gary terrible advice.

Had he taken the original deal...he would have been out a year ago.

If Gary really had seen anything, we would have never even heard of him.

Gary is being treated no differently than any other hacker....who got caught.

If anyone says otherwise, I would like to see some proof.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Dear Gary - do a runner.:winksmiley02:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I am confused about people's reactions about Gary's "criminal" activity. A-hem...last time I checked the government is THE MOST criminal institution on the planet-certainly those involved in clandestine activities that Gary is alleged to have stumbled upon.

My feeling is that his behavior is divinely inspired to expose what has been hidden-all a part of the overall ascension process.

and, right on Andre, of COURSE there are shades of grey....come on, people....get heart centered now....:)

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theresa (Post 4535)

So do the ends justify the means?

They do it to us so we can do it to them?

Two wrongs make a right?

They kill so we can kill?

They hack so we can hack?

Can anyone show me some evidence that Gary is being treated any differently than any other hacker who got caught?

Probably not I am afraid, because those folks must have had some decent lawyers who advised their clients to plead and be out in 18mos.

Hackers are hero's to some here, just as long as it suits your agenda.

If you really wanted to support him, if you really had his best interest at heart, what advice would you give?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

He hacked an evil government, the 9/11 perpetrators, that is complicit in a long term plan to subjugate its population, with service-to-self Ets at the top echelon of the pyramid of power. Murnut will never get it. His endless diatribe against Gary, the evil hacker, has been played out endlessly on Open Minds forum.

Any action, either legal or illegal (as long as it is non-violent in nature), that sheds even a little light on the ultimate crime I mentioned in my first paragraph is justifiable.

This will be my last posting, and my last reading in this particular thread, because if I keep reading Murnut's inane argument I might end up putting my foot through my computer screen.

My advice. Don't argue with Murnut. While we slowly lose our freedom, he will continue to focus on the importance of "law and order".

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:

Originally Posted by droid56 (Post 4756)

Yes...don't argue with me because I am right....lol.

And I have no problem in fighting for a cause.

Gary is just not one of them.

If Gary would have stood up, and faced the music like a man, instead of a chicken, I might have felt differently.

But instead, Gary has used the ufo community for his own purposes, and for the most part, the Conspiracy crowd has eaten it right up.

Gary and his supporters have constantly misrepresented the facts.

If folks want the ufo community to be taken seriously, then we have to distance ourselves from people and causes which hurt the greater good.

Now tell me...in my diatribe against Gary's supporters, what Have I misrepresented?

Me and a few others have actually had Gary's best interest at heart.

Plead out.

But many others want him to fight and face the maximum term.

Is that really in Gary's best interest?

=======================================

If you believe that the Govt is evil, Droid, don't pay your taxes.

But at least have the guts to stand up for what you believe in.

Is that what Gary has done ?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

So I am clear....I hope Gary get's off with as little as time as possible

Really I do.

But it infuriates me when some folks call him some kind of ufo hero.

Heroes stand up and don't cry when they don't get their way.

There are real heroes that the UFO community can be proud of.

Gary is not one of them, in my opinion.

My opinion is largely based on the actions Gary and his "team" took after his arrest

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Is this a wind up?!...can u honestly not see the importance of uncovering the informaiton being kept from the public..be it regarding alternative energy, a secret space programme, depopulation etc etc... Can u not see how keeping us in the dark about such monumental information and for such a large amount of time is grossly wrong and unnacceptable?! OR do u think we dont have the right to know?
I really dont care who the person was or people were, i stand by anyone who is trying to bring forward information that is being wrongly witheld...whether that involves hacking into someone elses computer system or stealing their secret diary....these are subjects which have deliberately been hidden from us.
However ''bad'' the crime was and whatever the ''law'' states..it can not be as bad as the crime committed against humanity and the laws of ''freedom'' we have to abide by in my opinion. So with that in mind anyone who tries to free up information on issues which are quite clearly very sensitive and worth lying about on a massive global scale are courageous and undoubtedly attain hero status.

I agree with ucan...leg it son...do a runner :boat:

Peace

bananaman

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Yeah, its seems murmot doesnt quite get it, or he would prefer to stick up for the laws of a corrupt government than defend the rights of a man whos tried to bring supressed information to the people who have a right to know about it!

Makes me kinda suspicious :sneaky2:

CT

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 3672)

The ends don't justify the means, it makes us no better than those we despise.

Gary was offered 6 mos in a US jail, the balance to be served in Britian.

Unfortunately, many have fallen for Gary's hype.

He should plead out, since he has admitted guilt

If they really offered Gary 6mths he would have taken it in fact I seem to remember he asked fo the deal in writing and they refused.

His interest in UFOs was fuelled by an urge to get his hands on free energy.
And his assumtion is correct -the place to find free energy is on craft that would require it.
So Gary was trying to break the illusion barrier created by the oil companys that have syphoned all the patents onto dusty shelves , and free the energy.

As occupants of the planet when new technolages that will help polution,poverty and remove possibly the no.1 reason that humans go to war-

WE SHOULD CONSIDER THAT A BREACH OF CONTRACT
the govs are elected to protect the future for our kids
WHEN FOR ECONOMIC REASONS THE PLANET SUFFERS
They wont stop chopping down rainforrest cause the "debts have to be paid"
WHEN WE ALLREADY HAVE THE TECHNOLAGES TO FIX IT
Did you know that a car running on hydrogen actually cleans the air as it runs? and it only waste product is water?
AND IT IS DELIBERATELY WITHHELD FROM THE POPULCE

THIS IS GROSS NEGLIGANCE AND IRRESPONSIBLE

AND GARRY TRIED TO RELEASE US FROM THE STUPIDITY

So to all those saying well he should not have done this he brought it on himself I say
"Shame on you- this man is a warrior fighting the root of todays evils before 99% of the world was even aware of the problem"
"We need more Garys!" - and thats why they are crucfying him to stop more.

If things go tits up for us all, " lower " forms of life suffer with us where is the logic or justice in that ?
As we are the caretakers of the whole biosphere the responsibility is ours.

Be strong Gary

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

You'd have thought they'd at least offer him a job, seeing as he exposed the poor state of security and the ease in which he accessed information. It would've been much easier to keep whatever he saw quiet. I think the indifference the UK and EU have shown regarding his extradition is deplorable and perhaps serves as an indicator as to what the one world state style of justice will be like. (maybe that should be, is like? ...hmm):winksmiley02:

It will be interesting to see what happens when this goes to trial, if it ever gets that far. I personally think world events will foreshadow this before that happens and the whole case will slip away unnoticed.

Best of Luck to Gary!

Great Job on the poster by the way KL.

OB:smoke:

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I say well done to Gary. He has obviously huge skills on a computer and what a refreshing change that he didnt just take a tenner from everyones bank accounts and live like a king. Also im sure that the us goverment would like him to go on the payrole. so however it ends i think he will be alright.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananaman (Post 5015)

So where do any of you draw the line?

Kidnapping for ransom?

Terrorist attacks?

In for a penny, in for a pound?

Maybe you all want to stoop to the level of those others...but then you are no better...and you replace these PtB with new PtB that are the same.

If you want to break the cycle, then it must be done the right way.

Otherwise it is for nothing

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaostheory (Post 5066)

Here come the new boss, same as the old boss.

Mark my words....T Ptb know far less about what is going on than you think.

They are in a loss-loss scenario.

No matter is the real truth is disclosed, most won't believe it.

You won't believe, because you will say it does not go far enough.

Joe six pack won't believe, because it goes too far.

I don't need to get my truth from the Govt.

Govt's are not about truth, never have been , never will be...and that is a fact.

It is about control.

I support the quest for the truth, through peaceful, law abiding means.

I drew my line...just where do your draw yours?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

[MOD EDIT]
Ok people, the thread is now open again, but with conditions
There have been some very good arguments put across both for,and against Garys conduct in this thread.

The major sticking points have been Garys treament by the PTB,and the fact that in some peoples opinions Gary should be regarded as some sort of folk hero.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, but not the right to impose thier opinion onto others. Please bear that in mind before posting!

My locking of the thread was not a form of censorship on any individual, it was an enforced time out to allow everyone to calm down

Healthy debate & questioning are good - personal attacks & insults are not

Gary McKinnon is a former Project Camelot interviewee, and therefore should be afforded the same courtesy that is shown to other Project camelot interviewee's by members of this forum.

I shall be watching this thread closely & any repeat of yesterdays behaviour will leave me no option other than to close the thread permenantly,and issue warnings to those concerned
[END OF SERMON]
Post away..

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

It would be heroic for Gary to push for a jury trial of his peers (which might drag out for years) and force the US gov to accept evidence and testimony from Dan and Marci and maybe some surprise wittnesses.

Good Luck Gary, and Best Wishes...(Give'em Hell)...!

epo3

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Sorry if I was hard on Gary.

My problem is not with Gary, but with the symbol Gary has become.

I hope Gary gets no or very little time.

But if Gary is the best example of a hero the ufo community can come up with, ufology is deader than dead.

Many of us, including me, have a predisposition to believe in anything that promotes the idea of an evil Ptb cover-up.

Certainly all is not what it seems, nor all has been told.

Govts have secrets, always have and always will.

But when it is obvious, that the facts about Gary's have been manipulated, to promote public sympathy, don't we have a duty to point that out?

How can ufology ever be taken seriously, when it can't get the simplest of facts straight about this case.

Gary does not deserve hard time, but he does not deserve special treatment either.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:

Originally Posted by epo3 (Post 7986)

Is that really in Gary's best interest to go to trial when he has admitted his guilt?

This perplexes me...many of Gary's supporters want Gary to have no charges, no charges enforced or they want a trial.

Why not plead to a lesser term especially when he does not deny the hacking?

Even if the Govt admitted the ufo cover up, Gary has still admitted the hacking.

What good does Dan and Marci testifying do?

And what evidence do they bring to the table?

Many seem to want to bet Gary's possible long sentence if he goes to trial on the premise that it could bring disclosure......this is not in Gary's best interest. Then he does face the maximum jail time.

Gary has made poor decisions to this point.

Are there those that would encourage yet another mistake?

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:

Originally Posted by murnut (Post 3672)

Gary was offered 3, 4 years or frying, but when he asked for the offer to be guarantied in writing, he was refused.

Gary has admitted to being on the systems and snooping around, but always insisted he did not do ANY DAMAGE!!!!

Damage is a key component in this case, as without it, there could be no extradition! That is until a week ago when the legal goal post was moved once again to facilitate the ECHR refusal to hear the case.

Moving the legal goal post in this case is monumental to put it mildly...

When Gary was doing what he did and was caught doing it,

The law regarding his offences had very little to do with terrorism or extradition - the PROPORTIONATE penalty was 6 month community service at the max. This was the first change to the law effecting this case which made Hacking = terrorism.
At this point in time to extradite their citizen the UK gov had to see EVIDENCE of the alleged crime and for a court to be satisfied that the evidence is real and there is a case to answer. This law has changed too as I am sure we are all well aware, no evidence is necessary now, accusation alone is sufficient to ship ‘em out.
However for it to become an extradition offence, the accusation had to include the ‘damage component’ to the tune of a certain $ value per hacked machine. Magically that minimum value of damages is claimed to be the case here.
As the case was going through the ECHR the law has changed again in the US (same week) ... This time the necessity to PROVE any damage is no longer needed! This was done to signal the ECHR that ‘Human rights’ does not come into it on the basis that if there is no need to prove damages, there is no need for secrecy and therefore no need for the case to be heard as a military trial, but rather as a strait forward criminal court case.

One has to ask - what is it, they are so eager to hide or achieve through this case? So eager in fact that they where willing to twist and turn their legal muscle 3 times to make it happened... This is ‘some determination’ that is being demonstrated here, 8 years is a long time, some patience too....

Best wishes
Anony Pony

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I think the main point may have been missed.

Is Gary guilty? I don't care.

What I do care about is how a UK citizen can be forcefully removed from his country on the orders of a foreign government. Every citizen of the UK should be deeply troubled by this.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

No no no! He BROKE the LAW! It's WRONG to BREAK the LAW! No matter what the CIRCUMSTANCES are! No matter what the INTENTION is! :eek:

BULL***T!!!

The Powers That Be write the laws FOR THEIR OWN BENEFIT. Not ours. They apply them when it suits them. And when they no longer serve TPB they change them so they do.

I keep seeing the same arguments, comparing Gary to a terrorist and a murderer. Get real.

Slavishly following the law just because it's the law means you're not using the greatest gifts you have- your own mind and heart.

ILLEGAL does NOT always mean WRONG. Binary thinking like that is best used by robots- program them and watch them go.

Don't question, just obey.

TPB position: Don't take independent action if you feel something is unjust, just do what we tell you and go back to sleep. If you break the rules THAT WE CREATED to PROTECT US AT YOUR EXPENSE you will be severely punished.

BLACK OR WHITE thinking is exactly what TPB hoped to achieve and that's exactly what they've got.

This will be my only post. I too got dragged into this on the Open Minds forum and I won't waste my energy again.

Peace and love to all.

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Hello lightworkers and Co-Creators,
I believe that Gary Mckinnon is a truely brave soul.
I believe that this case has the potential to 'open ' many pathways to the exposure of TRUTH.
Shifting from 3rd density into 4th and 5th density is going to be a time of many 'great revealings'.And we will begin to witness a multitude of deeply hidden truths emerging from everywhere!! My word we already are!
All that is hidden will be revealed.
Project Camelot is playing a beautiful role in this revealing of truths.
Together we stand stronger x

Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

How do you want to proof the damages?
We all know that damages can be maked up post-crime.
I hope the judge/jury considers that.

In dubio pro reo - benefit of the doubt

And I would like to know if there are any sketches or so of the things Gary saw, I'm very curios because only from his narrations it's hardly to imagine.
He also was quite vaguely.