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Old 09-27-2008, 03:03 AM   #51
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Publius,

That is what this thread is about - figuring out what to replace it with. How will enlightened economics operate? How do eliminate inequality in a system that both requires and seeks to reproduce it? Is economic inequality really bad? Is a more tribalistic, exchange/gift based system a possibility?

The one thing I find interesting from a historic perspective, is that no form of economic production, exchange, commerce, or consumption has ever survived without warfare.

That brings me to another thought - possibly unrelated to economics, but I tend to think all violence has its roots in economics at some level. Many of the Camelot witnesses argue that there are many races of extraterrestrials, and we have been been visited/exploited, and they tell of conflict in our galaxy. Even the enlightened, technologically advanced races know war. Why? Over resources? Over the soul-beings that we have become? Has our world become our galaxy's Iraq? Souls or oil - its all the same. If intergalactic, time traveling enlightened ones have not yet shed war, why is it concievable that we will do the same because of a change in vibration, etc.?

Your thoughts?
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Old 09-27-2008, 09:32 AM   #52
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

Hello there,

Zynox, overpolulation is in my view a relative concept:
The number of Human Beings currently of Earth could be seen as a state of overpopulation in the specific context of the current mode of production - of should i rather say, 'exploitation' of this Planet and its resources - that is, this wild, agressive Capitalism driven by greed alone.
Were the goods, other life sustaining commodities, the product we ourselves produce or gain directly from Earth, our aims in this existence spiritually more elevated(instead of the sole accumulation of money and material items), there would be no question of overpopulation; for Mother-Earth is able and willing to take care of her Children - and does still do so.
But in the current structure, our number puts lots of stress of Earth and its resources, for everyone wants still more and more and, as we all know, there are no limits to the 'accumulation fever' and greed has by definition no boundaries.
Besides, Humans are not the only inhabitants of this Planet.
There are other Life Forms having the same rights to be and to develop, Life Forms, which are dear to Earth as well as we do: Flora, Fauna.
We are building factories and other human production facilities on lands, that should normally be reserved to agriculture; destroying forests, polluting water and air...
Flora and Fauna are being persecuted by us; i read recently in a scientific paper(i do not recall the name) that honey bees are disappearing in horrifying huge numbers and sorts(and we all know the great role they play for the balance of our eco-system); the ice is dramatically melting(due in part to human irresponsible activities, like atomic and nuclear weapons tests onderground and in the atmosphere!!!)...
A couple of months ago, two ice-bears swam the whole way to the west coast(fjords) of Iceland, hungry and in despair, for there is no more ice they could live on.
They got shot down.

So, friends, we bear a lot of guilt here.
Let's try to make amend for some of it.

Regards,
RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

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Old 09-27-2008, 03:07 PM   #53
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A little capitalism doesn't hurt.

Its just when it gets out of the marketplace and affects infrastructure that we run into problems.
Well put. Thus far I have yet to encounter another system that is capitalism's equal, much less its superior. The problem is not the system per sé, but with human culture. People like pushing the envelope - it is part of our creative drive. The only problem with it is that it becomes subverted, as judged by whatever standard there may be in place short of "anything goes". People like to see how far they can take things and often lose sight that their actions bring serious harm to others at times. The "ends justify the means" mentality sets in and goes mainly unquestioned. That is why we are supposed to have watch dogs.

There is nothing wrong with curbing corporate behavior. Criminal law, for example, prevents employers from executing employees who do not perform to their expectations. The question is not whether businesses are to be regulated, but rather where the line is to be drawn. I am all for business and for capitalism, but I do not approve of the corporate free-for-all that has been raging with ever greater intensity since the Reagan administration started cutting the reins on the big boys. Efficiency in the use of resources is not a legitimate basis for screwing the pants off the very people an industry is supposed to serve. But it isn't that way anymore - now it is the customer who is to serve the business. Very dangerous stuff.

On the other hand lies the social-liberal - a cutesy euphemism for the socialist - who generally advocates that government be in everybody's business. Few appear to be interested in the middle path where corporations make their happy profit and the individual retains his full liberty. This can be achieved, but the parasitic politicos whose real agenda is power need to be removed from the equation. I'm all for ignoring them, but have no compunction to kill them if need be.

It seems to me, and I may be way wrong on this, that the world of humanity is rapidly approaching a nexus where we will have to decide what we really want: freedom and the acceptance of its requirements, or slavery and the corresponding price the illusion of a free ride exacts. And what will really be interesting is the conflict between those wanting the latter and those in favor of the former. Can they coexist? I doubt it.
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Old 09-27-2008, 03:25 PM   #54
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Well put. Thus far I have yet to encounter another system that is capitalism's equal, much less its superior.
On the other hand lies the social-liberal - a cutesy euphemism for the socialist - who generally advocates that government be in everybody's business. Few appear to be interested in the middle path where corporations make their happy profit and the individual retains his full liberty.
May I make a couple of point? First, how does one measure the value of an economic system? Is it strictly the living standards of the majority of its people? For example, during the colonial period, the English enjoyed better living standards than their Indian and African counterparts because they were able to exploit them. I will perhaps enrage some by suggesting that in many ways, Cuba provides a shining example of what a small island nation can do with committed leadership and a coherent ideology. I have been to Cuba and heard many of the Cuban leaders speak, including Fidel. In comparison to the circus called a debate last night, they spoke from the heart and with deep concern for their people. Cuba has its problems and this forum is not the place to discuss the matter at length. However, with regard to health care, Cuba excels as this article indicates.

http://www.cuba.cu/gobierno/reflexio.../f240908i.html

Around 35,000 Cuban health specialists provide free or paid-for services in
the world. Furthermore, some young doctors from countries such as Haiti and
others among the poorest of the Third World are working in their homelands
thanks to the assistance provided by Cuba. In Latin America, our main
contribution has been the ophthalmologic surgeries that will help to
preserve the eyesight of millions of people. Besides, we are assisting in
the training of tens of thousands of young medical students from other
nations, both in and outside Cuba.

I would also point out that, as even mentioned in mainstream media, it is rare for anyone to die in Cuba due to hurricanes, even though the island is often hit by serious storms, because the government cares enough to provide an efficient system of evacuation.

Before I left for Cuba, I spoke to someone who had made several visits to Cuba and I asked him why he had gone back so often. His response was quite enigmatic at the time. He said he needed to be reminded what it felt like to be a human being. After a few days there, I knew what he meant.
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Old 09-27-2008, 06:37 PM   #55
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

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May I make a couple of point? First, how does one measure the value of an economic system? Is it strictly the living standards of the majority of its people? For example, during the colonial period, the English enjoyed better living standards than their Indian and African counterparts because they were able to exploit them. I will perhaps enrage some by suggesting that in many ways, Cuba provides a shining example of what a small island nation can do with committed leadership and a coherent ideology. I have been to Cuba and heard many of the Cuban leaders speak, including Fidel. In comparison to the circus called a debate last night, they spoke from the heart and with deep concern for their people. Cuba has its problems and this forum is not the place to discuss the matter at length. However, with regard to health care, Cuba excels as this article indicates.

http://www.cuba.cu/gobierno/reflexio.../f240908i.html

Around 35,000 Cuban health specialists provide free or paid-for services in
the world. Furthermore, some young doctors from countries such as Haiti and
others among the poorest of the Third World are working in their homelands
thanks to the assistance provided by Cuba. In Latin America, our main
contribution has been the ophthalmologic surgeries that will help to
preserve the eyesight of millions of people. Besides, we are assisting in
the training of tens of thousands of young medical students from other
nations, both in and outside Cuba.

I would also point out that, as even mentioned in mainstream media, it is rare for anyone to die in Cuba due to hurricanes, even though the island is often hit by serious storms, because the government cares enough to provide an efficient system of evacuation.

Before I left for Cuba, I spoke to someone who had made several visits to Cuba and I asked him why he had gone back so often. His response was quite enigmatic at the time. He said he needed to be reminded what it felt like to be a human being. After a few days there, I knew what he meant.

I have been very interested in the Cuban community garden movement. Do you have any experience of that, Gwynned?
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Old 09-27-2008, 11:38 PM   #56
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I have been very interested in the Cuban community garden movement. Do you have any experience of that, Gwynned?
The only personal experience I have is seeing them all as we left Havanna for the airport. But the story of organic gardening exemplifies the difference between how Cuba responds to an emergency or a resource deficiency v. how the U.S. responds. When the Soviet Union collapsed, Cuba entered the 'special period.' Among the difficulties, was the sudden lack of oil based fertilizer.\ that they had been receiving under subsidy from the Soviet Union. Their response was to turn to organic gardening and home gardens and they've since developed quite the market for their goods and been able to feed their own people (starvation was a goal of the US embargo), and become a leader in organic gardening. They did not ask for a bailout for the people who could no longer farm and they didn't go to war with anyone to secure the fertilizer. They made lemons into (organic) lemonade, and snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. Not bad for a small carribean island with few natural resources.
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Old 09-28-2008, 12:20 AM   #57
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I do appreciate the gardening and seed comments made on this thread. The Cuban situation should be considered by those who read this thread. However, one cannot deny that while positive aspects in the Cuban system do exist, it is propped up by a dictatorship that is notorious for executing those who simply ask questions. Nevertheless, the Cuban example is worth studying, and was not aware of it before you posters began your discussion. For that I thank you - my journey now includes learning more on that topic.

With that said, perhaps we can envision a future where subsistance concerns are not collectivized. I can see communities where organic, household production is the norm. Perhaps, yet I am not totally convinced, that is indeed the best way. Although I would ask this: what happens when rapid influx to these future communites outstrips the household-centric nature of such a system - especially in a cold season for those existing in temperate zones? "Radiant zones," or safe zones will be what John Winthrop called "Cities on a hill;" initial production levels should take into consideration that many who have not labored will soon arrive - whether they ever do or not.

This inspires another question: at what point do economic concerns - planning, production, consumption, exchange - bleed over into the realm of political? Is not the major concern of political systems the regulation of economic activities? Should we be considering our political futures alongside our debate about the future of the micro-economies?

By the way, this thread has been a lot of fun because of the quality of the posts - thank you all for keeping it positive, fun, and informative.
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Old 09-28-2008, 05:08 AM   #58
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I do appreciate the gardening and seed comments made on this thread. The Cuban situation should be considered by those who read this thread. However, one cannot deny that while positive aspects in the Cuban system do exist, it is propped up by a dictatorship that is notorious for executing those who simply ask questions. Nevertheless, the Cuban example is worth studying, and was not aware of it before you posters began your discussion. For that I thank you - my journey now includes learning more on that topic.
I just have to respond to this. The Cuban government does NOT execute people that ask questions and execution is rare. The one that comes to mind was a high level government official that took bribes and used his position to enrich himself. I also once believed that Fidel was a dictator. But I also once believed the US is a democracy, until I began to explore a different version of events and reality than the one I had been programmed to believe.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:44 PM   #59
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I have read several good and balanced biographies of Castro - years ago I was fascinated by his politics. But he had a dark side, as a child and as a revolutionary leader. Cuba hasn't executed many people over the last couple of decades, but the two decades after the revolution were pretty rough for dissidents. Che G. might take issue with his benevolence as well.

I am not programmed to believe anything. I can say that American democracy is dead and Fidel Castro has a lot of innocent blood on his hands in the same sentence.

Please don't stop posting useful links and info over our disagreement.
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Old 10-01-2008, 03:01 AM   #60
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I have read several good and balanced biographies of Castro - years ago I was fascinated by his politics. But he had a dark side, as a child and as a revolutionary leader. Cuba hasn't executed many people over the last couple of decades, but the two decades after the revolution were pretty rough for dissidents. Che G. might take issue with his benevolence as well.

I am not programmed to believe anything. I can say that American democracy is dead and Fidel Castro has a lot of innocent blood on his hands in the same sentence.

Please don't stop posting useful links and info over our disagreement.
Oh, I won't! You might check out a fantastic movie called Fidel by Estela Brava. I think Americans and Brits killed and executed lots of Germans in WWII, some of whom were innocent, I'm sure. Revolutions are a bloody business, usually, though Chavez and Morales have, at least so far, been able to revolutionize their coutries through the ballot.

I'll share with you a quick story. I paid a visit to the Museum of the Revolution in Havanna, which has, among other things a life size mannequin of Che with a bad hair piece, which would have seem painfully pathetic had not our guide spoken so proudly of it, thereby reminding me that revolutions are about more than catchy displays. On a serious note, one of the exhibits included photos and instruments from what had been Batista's torture facility which is now a school of liberation. I nearly fainted from looking at these horrific instruments of torture, but this begs the question one has to ask in evaluating the morality and success of any endeavor, including revolutions and one which cannot be answered perhaps without the 20/20 hindsight that time provides. Did the revolution save more lives than it took and did it improve the lives of more than it harmed.

Another great film is I Am Cuba which depicts life before the revolution, a life comparable to that of present day Haiti.

I also really enjoyed reading the big red book called Che. If nothing else, the story of the Cuban revolution is a fascinating read.
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Old 10-01-2008, 03:34 AM   #61
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Isnt' what we really want is "Free Markets".

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Old 10-03-2008, 01:53 AM   #62
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Gwyned,

Thanks for the post - I will look for both films as soon as I find time. The end of the Cuban Revolution is yet to be written. I think U.S. propaganda has done its work. While the mainstream either supports, or remains silently indifferent, to Castro today, his death will become a major symbol. My only fear is that instead of the Cuban people finding their own way in post-Castro world, they will get a swift-moving, U.S. style of invasive Capitalism that leaves them another Guam, or Puerto Rico.

Waterman,

"Markets," by their definition, are INHERENTLY free. "Free" markets, as Zynox pointed to, is what we call a "meme." Markets are free. The phrase "free markets" is a phrase introduced by politicians to get us to associate "markets" with the notion of "freedom." "Freedom" + "Market" gets us to "free market." What most people think when they adopt the phrase, is that one necessitates the other - not true. Places where true, uninhibited markets flourish, there is a great deal of exploitation, unrest and genocide. Darfur, for instance, is a place where the market operates with relatively no restrictions, but is one of the most brutal places on Earth. The United States of America is a highly manipulated and regulated market, but is freer - at least for the moment - than most places on the planet (barring unpopulated wilderness).

The real problem with Capitalism that exists today, in the U.S. and globally, is that the corporations and financeers who make it run have no problem using the words "market" and "community" interchangeably. They are not the same thing, much like the meme above. What we should be shooting for in the coming future is communities, not markets - that is why I started this thread. Should we keep the market system? Profits are natural to this system - what should be done with results that rise above production costs? Should we abandon the market system?

Thanks for the post Waterman - you have brought the focus back, and I'm interested in your responses.
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Old 10-03-2008, 05:02 PM   #63
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I have gone back through this thread to re-read some of the posts, to glean something new from the old. Your statement, Matrix, stood out. I keep emphasizing "Pre-Capitalist/exchange" economics, because it is a system that Capitalism ran roughshod over from the late eighteenth century onward. Exchange economics is what tribal societies of the past practiced, and what tribal societies today practice (the few that are left, and none are immune to the effects of "articulation," the process by which market forces erode exchange economies). For Native Americans in North America, it was the fur trade that led to articulation, a process that was quickly followed by gun-point diplomacy by the Canadian and United States governments.

My point is that exchange economies were consciously crushed by the historic PTB BECAUSE it ran counter to exploitative market Capitalism. Could we build community models based on this earlier economic model?
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:14 PM   #64
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snip

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Old 10-03-2008, 10:35 PM   #65
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Hi EpiphaMe,

I welcome your post, but am afraid I may have missed the point. Your initial tone was a bit off-putting. The folks here obviously have done their homework, have something to contribute, and want to share. I get the sense from your starting comments that that bothers you in some fashion. Why?

The system is crashing - we're seeing new nails be driven into the coffin now on a daily basis. Capitalism seems to be failing us - thus the point of the thread. Can it be reformed, are there other ways, etc.? We know it has turned to **** - I want this thread to contemplate alternatives for our future.

I don't know what to tell you about your neighbors. I live next to a guy who is a complete jerk. Guy looks like a Frankenstein whos been slapped with ugly (thanks Violent J), and thinks his worth can be measured by the numbers on his paycheck stub. I won't be having any conversations with him in the near future on how to prepare for the SHTF, but when it does, chances are we will be collaborating for survival. Ain't that really the point?
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Old 10-04-2008, 03:04 AM   #66
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I thank all here for their responses.

Now, let me ask this. Given the birth and raising of Capitalism, what we have witnessed over the last few days, is this a system we should support? Should we reject all that a market system creates?
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Old 10-04-2008, 03:43 AM   #67
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Publius,

The one thing I find interesting from a historic perspective, is that no form of economic production, exchange, commerce, or consumption has ever survived without warfare.

That brings me to another thought - possibly unrelated to economics, but I tend to think all violence has its roots in economics at some level. Many of the Camelot witnesses argue that there are many races of extraterrestrials, and we have been been visited/exploited, and they tell of conflict in our galaxy. Even the enlightened, technologically advanced races know war. Why? Over resources? Over the soul-beings that we have become? Has our world become our galaxy's Iraq? Souls or oil - its all the same. If intergalactic, time traveling enlightened ones have not yet shed war, why is it concievable that we will do the same because of a change in vibration, etc.?

Your thoughts?
~ Why, indeed! ... perhaps don Juan shared the ultimate illumination with Carlos, perhaps, it is 'simple' parasitic influence ... once we get past the repulsive impression we are infected, it satisfies Occam's razor as a simple and straight forward cause, for those with eyes to see, ears to hear, and stomach to digest, this most repulsive concept ~

The Topic of Topics
http://stclairzone.ning.com/forum/to...3ATopic%3A2677

~ namaste my sisters and brothers ~
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Old 10-04-2008, 04:00 AM   #68
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~ within recent posts herein this thread, some have expressed their essence, and confusion ~ and, others have asked ,essentially, what's the point of the contribution ~ economies are comprised of the conglomerate, those that feel or possess some finesse, research, investment and resonance, and those that participate, at all other levels ~ in sum total, we shall have peace and harmony, or we shall rinse and repeat the current paradigm ~ suggestion: embrace one another my sisters and brothers ~ we are WE ~ may we all relate on respectful sovereign ground, as each, contribute ~

~ love and namaste my sisters and brothers ~
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Old 10-04-2008, 04:06 AM   #69
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Given the birth and raising of Capitalism, what we have witnessed over the last few days, is this a system we should support? Should we reject all that a market system creates?
I recognize three predominant responses:

1) Same old song and dance - bend over ~ we know where it leads

2) Pitchforks and Guillotines ~ we know where it leads

3) NON-PARTICIPATION ~ extract and create ~ each their own way

What would happen if each calmly elected to withdraw participation, sure pay taxes for now, but have no investment in the paper system, step one, refuse to vote at all, as it is only for a thug that will coerce thy neighbor more than the other thug your neighbor wants to coerce you with ...

Imaginative (creative) minds may expand from here, it is possible, read Lysander Spooner if con-fused ...

~ love and namaste, my sisters and brothers ~
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Old 10-04-2008, 09:44 PM   #70
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~ Why, indeed! ... perhaps don Juan shared the ultimate illumination with Carlos, perhaps, it is 'simple' parasitic influence ... once we get past the repulsive impression we are infected, it satisfies Occam's razor as a simple and straight forward cause, for those with eyes to see, ears to hear, and stomach to digest, this most repulsive concept ~

The Topic of Topics
http://stclairzone.ning.com/forum/to...3ATopic%3A2677

~ namaste my sisters and brothers ~
Great link Zynox,

I tend to think war cannot be seperated from economics. The prevailing theme of the exopolotical literature is that this planet is a resource, and competitive interests are involved. Even the "enlightened ones," according to the various theories, are in direct competition over the very things we are. Does that make war, much like economic activity (not to be confused with known economic systems), a universal condition of life? What are the implications of this for the radiant/safe zones of the future?
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Old 10-05-2008, 01:01 AM   #71
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Does that make war, much like economic activity (not to be confused with known economic systems), a universal condition of life? What are the implications of this for the radiant/safe zones of the future?
HistoryCircus,

Your specific question has been my contemplation for several intense hours ... I am now resolved, until new data is received and processed, that we are in kindergarten and soon to be shoved into the first grade. I feel terra is a training ground for the astral, and, this is somewhat not what I would create or 'wish' for, it feels like we have less than complete sovereign choice in participation. YET, it leads me to feel that much MORE empowered regarding sovereign response. Perhaps, the schoolyard is initiation, and if we excel here, we get to be the ultimate 'free-lance', or free-soul, in astral and re-incarnations here, running our own SOVEREIGN scripts, as powerful beings that simply exude a "don't fu*k with me aura - i'm on my own sovereign mission" feel ... hope this makes some sense as i work through these new understandings ...

I am so done with gurus, group-mind, mind-fu*ks and that whole spectrum of rubbish, I want to LOVINGLY create an inner radiant zone, and exude such incredible energy that no other dares tread on me, as a starting point to magnetically attract resonant and harmonious relationships with balanced sovereign souls ... I am well aware, at the moment, that I am yet another inmate, in the asylum ~ blissfully, insane ~

i suspect:

banks go on holiday next week
draconian measures are propagated
underground mutant resistance and creations emerge
interesting times develop
souls are tested
souls radiate
souls extinguish (not sure what this 'means')

~ namaste, my brother ~

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Old 10-05-2008, 03:25 AM   #72
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Watch this vid its pretty stirring, the opening bit and ending bit is from a movie. Does anyone know what movie it is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CJMw914Zvk

wow i wanna hug that lady!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAADyc6t4nY

she must make those bastards cringe LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbD62gNi9WE
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:31 PM   #73
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Seva,

Thanks for the clips, and feel free to give your thoughts on the many questions posed on this thread. After this last week, Ph.D.s in economics from Harvard don't mean chit to me. Your thoughts on the economic future of the safe/radiant zones are welcome.

Zynox,

I couldn't be happier to hear that you've given up on the gurus - in an age where following has led us to the brink of disaster, you strike me as the type of guy who has something to teach. Discovering that we are our own gurus is freedom.

And on another note, although a little off topic given the thread, let me be the first to say that I don't want to go to first grade. Did I wake up from my soul sleep and imposed imprisonment just put on another garb of captivity? For the "good" or "bad," our mistakes as a species are ours to make. If we destroy ourselves, so be it. If we destroy ourselves as part of someone elses game, that is true tragedy. I am not a resource - I am a man. I am not a market - I am a man. I did not shed one patriarchy just to join another.

I too feel that hard times are ahead, and I hope that all who have posted here end up safe.

May you all be safe in the coming age.
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Old 10-05-2008, 10:11 PM   #74
Zynox
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Posts: 243
Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

Quote:
Originally Posted by historycircus View Post

... let me be the first to say that I don't want to go to first grade.

... I am not a resource - I am a man. I am not a market - I am a man. I did not shed one patriarchy just to join another.
HistoryCircus,

You my friend, have been instrumental in my current evolution, we rubbed each other at first, and now feel to be accelerating each other, in harmony, and I appreciate the growth you have nurtured for me ~

Your second comment is how I have felt on levels, but I have come full circle, yet again, and found another puzzle key that feels like enormous script truth, to me:

The War in Heaven (are we loosh, and if so, how do we avoid feeding the factions):
Source Files and Blog Posts regarding The War in Heaven


~ namaste, my sisters and brothers ~
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:21 AM   #75
historycircus
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

Interesting site Zynox, and I am nowhere near digesting it all yet. It sounds very familiar in a lot respects.

I think about how I would conduct myself if given, say, a ship and crew - to travel the stars, seek out new life, and pick Roddenberries, etc. If I found a planet full of monkeys being manipulated into killing each other by some other alien like myself, and wanted to do something about it, I'd take the fight to the source - not manipulate them even further.

I would not pick people who have isolated themselves and are considered crazy by the majority to deliver my offer of joining the team - you know what I mean? I'd put the shields up, and park on the lawn of the capital building, turn on the external speakers, and start laying it out.

The subterfuge that many posit is pointless, and in honor of Nimoy, illogical.

Many in the flesh, for centuries, have proven their worth; have proven that for all the collective flaws, there is collective potential. If I can figure that out, then I am sure a more enlightened trans-dimensional time-travelling being can too.

Zynox, you make me think, and for that I love you.
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