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Old 02-12-2010, 04:19 AM   #276
PilotSimone
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

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Originally Posted by trainedobserver View Post
Your cult-like devotion to Greer is obvious. Hopefully others will not be drawn into his fantasy world by your ...example. Greer is one of the worst things that has happened to Ufology in quite a long time and the evidence is out there for those with the where-with-all to process it. The study of Ufology reveals many such cult figures in its past.

The parallels between UFO cults and religious cults are very revealing and an equally absorbing study. You would find Nick Redfern's new book Contactees illuminating. I certainly wish you no ill will. But at some point you will have to face the reality of the situation ... or perhaps not. Good luck.
And when all else fails, accuse them of being cultists.

Thank you for being obvious about your intent here.
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Old 02-12-2010, 04:37 AM   #277
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

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Your cult-like devotion to Greer is obvious. Hopefully others will not be drawn into his fantasy world by your ...example...
The conclusions you draw from the limited information I have provided are just silly. If there were no physical observable events, able to be recorded by video equipment and confirmed by multiple observers, I would not be saying that the techniques I learned at CSETI worked. There is no illusion here, no fantasy. This is totally real. My wife has seen these things, thank goodness. I have been having interactions on my own, at my house, no Greer involved, and it is mind blowing to say the least. As one example, at one point the ETs confirmed a thought I was having by drawing a horizontal line of light in the sky. I suggested (in thought) that they use a vertical line in the sky if they wanted to tell me "no". One rainy night some friends and I went out to see if the ETs were ready to interact and we got a big vertical line of light in the sky, under low clouds, quite close. A big "no". Not a good night. I could go on at great length. This is not between me and Greer, it's between me and the ETs.

Now I know there are lots of paranoid people on this forum who think that sort of thing is dangerous. All I can say is I've had no problems. I'm interested in the truth about ETs, and I'm not going to get at it by hiding under a rock. I want to get to know these beings better.

What reality is that I need to face? That Greer is human and has faults? I already know that. Where you see a cult, I simply see a guy who does what he says he can do - teach people how to contact ETs. I cannot fathom how you can construe my statement that what Greer taught worked for me as some kind of cult-worship. It is a simple statement of fact. I have gone out of my way to not say anything about Greer for which I don't have direct experience.

Have fun with your vendetta against Greer. It seems to be popular lately. Your misundertanding of my position is, shall we say, obvious.
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:00 AM   #278
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

Why so bitter you two? It's obvious folks have different opinions regarding Greer. What ever happened to the concept of mutual respect for all beings including other members here on the forum? What ever happened to allowing forum members to have their own opinion without trying to discredit or diminish them?

I'm sorry that this is even an issue when time could be better spent doing something productive like fixing dinner.

Trashing Greer and accusing other forum members of belonging to a cult is more a reflection on who you are then something anyone else could possibly say.

The key rule here is to respect the other members. I don't see that happening in this thread in how those of us who like Greer are being insulted by you lisa and trainedobservor.
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:28 AM   #279
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

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Play nice... a trained observer can surely see that people do not have to smoke crack to be ill-informed...
What does it take to get this kinda Big Brother Moderator protection? I want some over here.
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:36 AM   #280
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

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What does it take to get this kinda Big Brother Moderator protection? I want some over here.
Well you got it sister

Not saying anyone was ill-informed though..
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:15 AM   #281
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

I'm pretty much committed to the following: http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15878 I sense very strongly that complete Human Sovereignty (with few or no strings attached) is not what the ET's (or non-physical entities?) who Steven Greer is interacting with really have in mind. I don't doubt that Dr. Greer is a good man. I don't doubt that he has actual ET contact...or that he is very knowledgeable. The ET's he is dealing with may be the best of the bunch. But I keep getting the sinking feeling that genuine Human Sovereignty is off the table...and out of the question. I'm seeing an ET Theocracy...or a Universal Church...as a world religion indeed. I see and hear a sort of fatalistic resignation in the face and voice of Jordan Maxwell...who is not exactly a Johnny Come Lately to the subjects of Esoteric Knowledge, Ancient Religions, Ufology, Aliens, Secret Societies, New World Order, Vatican, etc. I'm sensing that we are Prisoners of War on a Prison Planet with Grey Guards and a Reptilian Warden...and that our options may be somewhat limited. However...I will continue to promote the concept of the United States of the Solar System based upon Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom...as a viable alternative to an ET Theocracy. (ETocracy?) We Uppity Humans are a real pain, aren't we...SaLuSa, Monka, and abraxasinas?

Namaste

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Old 02-12-2010, 07:48 AM   #282
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

I'd just like to summarize the points that seem important to me at this juncture, and also address some of the points that Carol made. PC was created so that issues like this can be discussed openly, and for questions to be asked, so I do not apologize for my questions, and I do not feel I should have to. I'm not intent on smearing anyone, I just want to understand what is going on here because I think there is more than meets the eye and I think it's all important.

Again I will say that I have been very inspired by Greer's books, many of his talks I've seen on video and heard on Net radio, and certainly by the Disclosure Project, and I wish him well and hope he will continue to do good work in the field, which I think he is quite capable of doing. But I am still puzzled by some of his behavior.. It may be because he is still healing from a very dysfunctional childhood, or because he has taken a path on the razor's edge of duality, dealing with people in black ops and people in high places such as the Clintons, for example, who really aren't very nice people, as I think we can all agree here, and I wonder if this has had some effect on him, and if he has by so doing made himself a continuing target of psyops, because TPTB might very much like to control him and bend him to their will.

I don't think he would have to hang around those kinds of people very much to be affected.
I have read other reports, such as Fred Burk's, creator of the Wanttoknow website, who served as an interpreter for Bush and Clinton and later, after becoming a whistleblower, admitted that even the limited amount of contact he had with that circle of people had an effect on him.

It may be that Greer's spiritual practice protects him from being affected, but we do know fairly conclusively that he was given cancer by a psyops attack and lost his friend Sherry to cancer by that same attack. This was reportedly when he began working out, to improve his health so that his body would be better able to handle the stress of his mission, which is certainly commendable. For those who didn't know about that, it's a good explanation of why he is working so hard to stay in shape, though it has been implied that he works out because he is actually gay and obsessed with the male physique. I am NOT repeating this to enforce that view, but simply to point out why it may be wrong, for those who haven't connected those dots.

As to whether his work on the Contact field trips is of value, some people have apparently had Contact experiences, some haven't. That has more to do with where those individuals are in their own journeys, no doubt.. As to whether claims he has made about such things as what various people like Woolsey or Clinton have said to him or written to him, who can really say?—TPTB can't be trusted when it comes to the subject of Disclosure, as all should know by now. They can and will say one thing today and deny it tomorrow. So I'm not even going to go there. Has he formed a cult? Well, he's human, he has an ego, he has admirers and followers--does that constitute a cult? It depends on your own definition.

Questions I have:

Dr. Greer made an allegation about Project Camelot fairly recently (in 2009, I believe), saying they were disseminating disinformation.
This seemed like a very unfair and unfounded assessment to me, very disrespectful and unappreciative of Bill and Kerry and the many whistleblowers whose stories they have helped to bring to the public's attention. Greer then apologized, but then came the interview with PC, which was very hostile in tone, and that wasn't just due to Bill and Kerry's assertiveness and direct questions. Greer was obviously acting very defensively and his angry tone pretty much canceled out any effect the apology might have had, in my view. Why?


Does Dr. Greer secretly regard himself as above everyone else of the Disclosure Movement?

This Movement is a group effort. Everyone has a piece of the puzzle, and all pieces are of value. Dr. Greer's Disclosure Project was a significant contribution to the Movement, but Bob Dean's contribution, to mention just one of the PC whistleblowers, is comparable, in my opinion, as is the body of work that Bill and Kerry have done. Bill and Kerry have also made significant sacrifices and have funded their work out of their own pockets to a large extent, and they don't have medical degrees to fall back on, and don't even own their own homes, unlike Greer, who apparently has done pretty well for himself, and so I don't think they pale in comparison to Greer in terms of self sacrifice at all. They haven't been on the scene as long, but they've certainly had an incredible impact. I think they deserve just as much respect.

Bill and Kerry are also spiritual people, as I think most people on this Forum probably are, and I think they do their very best to be honest and truthful, and to keep their minds open both to the possibility that there may be things beyond their experience, or knowledge that their whistleblowers might reveal which, of course, they also admit, may be true or untrue. Either way, they do their very best to bring these stories in the open, so that we may compare and contrast stories, judge for ourselves and by so doing, develop our own discernment. I think PC has greatly expanded public knowledge of what has been going on behind the scenes, both by ET s and humans, whether negatively or positively oriented, and that has been a great service, for which I am very thankful.

What I really wonder is if Greer has even followed their work, and whether he has or not, why he seems to believe that only he really knows what is going on, what is disinfo and what isn't. Particularly when many others such as the PC whistleblowers were insiders who had never met each other before or never discussed their stories together before, and yet often discovered that their stories corroborated each other's claims, as Kerry and Bill have been kind enough to track for us and point out. Greer has never been an insider and so I wonder how it is that he considers himself able to evaluate what these insider whistleblower's experiences were, and how he can determine that they are disinformers, whether deliberate or unintentional..

It seems like sheer arrogance to me to claim such omniscience. Perhaps his ET guides have told him as much, but are we to swallow everything he says without question because of that? Are his ET guides omniscient? With the 50 plus ET races that have reportedly been here recently and/or are still here, do his guides know everything the other ET s are doing? Just because he hasn't heard of something, are we to take it that that means it hasn't happened? Is there ANYONE whose word is so absolutely not to be questioned? I think this is why some people attach the “reptilian” word to Greer. Negative Reptilians reportedly demand to be worshipped and may never be questioned or even looked directly in the face.

Greer says he believes that our governments are not in contact with alien species, but there seems to be plenty of evidence to the contrary. He offers no proof as to why he thinks this, whereas the other whistleblowers do offer proof, and at their own peril. Is that proof really disinfo or is Greer not offering any more info than he does because he doesn't have it or because he's cautious of possible repercussions, knowing from experience what the price might be? I don't blame him if he is cautious, but I don't understand why is he not more appreciative of people who are taking those risks, and more open to the possibility that they might be right. Maybe he just doesn't want to think about it...

He's said repeatedly and written in at least one book, (NOT in an “offhand manner, I would say), that the role of negative aliens, if any, has been minimal on our planet. I don't think the definite and clear manner in which he stated this can or should be minimized. It would be wonderful if he was right, but is he right? He may be saying this to counteract the disinformation about negative ET s that has been disseminated to create fear, but what people IN the Disclosure Movement want and deserve is the TRUTH, not to be manipulated either one way OR the other. For those of us who are brave enough to stare this reality in the face, I don't think Greer is doing us a service if he is trying to “protect us” from the truth, nor it it really anyone's job to do that, in any case.

I think in order to clean up the mess that has been made of this planet, some of us at least need to know in detail what has been done behind closed doors, however scary it may be, so that we can energetically send light to the darkness created by there scenarios and help to figure out how to undo it. The general public doesn't have to know all this if they don't want to, or aren't ready for it, but there should be a choice to know the truth, for those who want to take this work on. And I do think it's work of a very transformational nature if taken on in the spirit of truth seeking for the sake of Truth, and deserves respect as such. I for one, am not doing this out of mere curiosity or for distraction or entertainment—it's work, and I am driven to do it by as deep a spiritual need as any I've ever known.

I don't think we need an elite class in the Movement whose motivations or integrity go unquestioned, we need more people like those working n the spirit of PC, where there is respect for all and a spirit of egalitarianism. Greer seems to treat a lot of people like he thinks they are his inferiors, and I have to say he really does come off as posturing and arrogant in a lot of the talks I have seen him give on video, and I think he was positively bullying toward Kerry in the infamous interview.

Is this “geeky” behavior? Is it a result of his high IQ? Is it because he lacks social skills or is defensive due to past attacks? Is it because he hasn't healed yet from his painful childhood? Is it because he has done so much spiritual work on himself and has had so many spiritual experiences with higher dimension ET s that he has gone far beyond the rest of us so that we cannot comprehend who or what he is anymore?

Well, I don't know the man personally, but in my view, truly spiritual people are humble, considerate of others, non judgemental of others and able to recognize their own limitations, and willing to admit they still have lots to learn.. Willing to listen and share, appreciative of the contributions and efforts of others, and patient and respectful of others' personal space, etc. etc.

I have been on a spiritual path for 30 years now myself, and have had some pretty far out experiences too, as I'm sure a lot of others on this forum have. In my journeys, I have met lots of others on spiritual paths, including Zen Masters, Lamas, Yogis and other kinds of spiritual teachers from various backgrounds. So I have some basis for comparison. One thing is sure and that is that the cultivation of powers such as levitation and clairvoyance does not guarantee that a person is unquestionably wise, pure and secure on their path. We are none of us on this plane of existence incapable of making mistakes and suffering spiritual setbacks. There are dangers and pitfalls on the spiritual path that we are all subject to here.

I think all this controversy may serve as much of a wakeup call for Greer as it has been for the Disclosure Movement itself. As the Pickering brothers said, the uproar resulting from the PC interview with Greer has brought to light much that has been dividing the Movement, and I believe as they apparently do, that it's a great opportunity for growth.. Hopefully we will be able to arrive not only at more unity, but also more clarity about what is truth and what is disinformation and how to know the difference.

As to the pornographic photos allegedly of Greer, I hope if it was all a hoax and meant to discredit him, the truth will soon be known. Apparently Bill thought his sources on this were good, but I think it warrants deeper investigation. Not because Greer isn't as entitled to his privacy and sexual preferences as anyone else, but because if he is under attack, he deserves to be vindicated, and his attackers and their agenda should be exposed. If he really has been in the closet, and really did create that webpage, then it is unfortunate that he has been “outed” in this way, but if that is the case, it certainly indicates a lack of wisdom on his part, and I think it would also be safe to say is a pretty clear indicator that the man needs help. I did say IF here! I don't know, but I refuse to be silenced on this score, because it's a piece of the whole puzzle.

I think Greer might be pleasantly surprised to see how open and warm others in the Movement would be if he would come down from his ivory tower and be more open himself. I think he could learn a lot from other whistleblowers if he gave himself half a chance and hopefully would be brave enough to offer information they could benefit from as well that he has not been forthcoming with as yet if, as Carol has inferred, he has knowledge of value he hasn't shared. The more courage the whistleblowers demonstrate in revealing what TPTB don't want us to know, the quicker we can get on with this process, and the easier it becomes for more whistleblowers to come to the fore.

The reports of Greer's coldness and aloofness from attendees and other presenters at the UFO conferences last year came from a lot of good sources, according to Bill, including some of the other presenters themselves. What agenda does that kind of behavior serve? Is he aloof around others in the Movement because he has something to hide, and being surrounded by Truthseekers makes him uncomfortable?

I don't know, but I suspect he is having a spiritual crisis and needs to look at himself again and the way he is relating to his fellow human beings. I hope he will, because I still think he could do a lot of good if he would join forces more with others, in not in action, then at least in feeling..

Frankly, I don't know anyone who isn't having some kind of spiritual crisis now. As Bill pointed out in his thread, we are all human and we all make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from them, to forgive ourselves and others, to heal and to continue growing. The only difference is that Greer's crisis right now is a very public one. Apparently he signed up for that though, and he appears to be a pretty tough guy, so I'm hoping he can handle it. I think we probably owe him a debt of gratitude for being such a good catalyst and mirror for the degree of change that we may all need to go through on many levels both as individuals and as a group, if we are to arrive at the kind of unity that will really be instrumental in bringing about the results we are hoping for, starting of course, with Disclosure!

Personally, my current greatest sources of inspiration are listening to Solfreggio healing frequencies on youtube accompanied by beautiful moving mandala light shows, and David Wilcock and Nassim Haramein who are both coming on now like gangbusters, and more power to them. May all who need to, rally soon and come back with a whole bunch of new inspiration and energy to share and grow with, including Dr. Steven Greer...

Namaste.

Last edited by onawah; 02-12-2010 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 02-12-2010, 08:12 AM   #283
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

Wow, are you people considering the possibility of continuing CSETI without Greer?
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:08 PM   #284
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

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...What ever happened to allowing forum members to have their own opinion without trying to discredit or diminish them?...
It is rather funny to hear it from you Carol. After saying the opinion of one member was "bull ****". After saying I was making "poor logic" or labeling " mean spirited, small mindedness" some who simply want to say their opinion.

You guys seem to take it personally. It is not the case. I repeat your own word for you; "What ever happened to allowing forum members to have their own opinion without trying to discredit or diminish them".

And by the way Lisa never lack respect to anyone here. She was not insulting and never diminished anyone here, she shared her opinion and one member over reacted.

We should be able to give our view and opinion on Steven Greer on Avalon forum and you guys should not take it personally. I do not attack Greer personally, but his statement. And their is nothing wrong with this, no need to heat up.

Namaste, Steven
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:14 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by orthodoxymoron View Post
...I keep getting the sinking feeling that genuine Human Sovereignty is off the table...and out of the question. I'm seeing an ET Theocracy...or a Universal Church...as a world religion indeed. I see and hear a sort of fatalistic resignation in the face and voice of Jordan Maxwell...who is not exactly a Johnny Come Lately to the subjects of Esoteric Knowledge, Ancient Religions, Ufology, Aliens, Secret Societies, New World Order, Vatican, etc. I'm sensing that we are Prisoners of War on a Prison Planet with Grey Guards and a Reptilian Warden...and that our options may be somewhat limited...
I could not agree more to this Ortho. That is why it is imperative to put human sovereignty in our daily focus if we do not want to leave a future of tyranny for our children. That is the reason I find it dangerous to hear someone well known like Steven Greer to claim all ETs are good. This is not the case and the few not good in our perspective are here manipulating...

Namaste, Steven
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:24 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by onawah View Post
...I'd just like to summarize the points that seem important to me at this juncture...

He's said repeatedly and written in at least one book, (NOT in an “offhand manner, I would say), that the role of negative aliens, if any, has been minimal on our planet. I don't think the definite and clear manner in which he stated this can or should be minimized. It would be wonderful if he was right, but is he right? He may be saying this to counteract the disinformation about negative ET s that has been disseminated to create fear, but what people IN the Disclosure Movement want and deserve is the TRUTH, not to be manipulated either one way OR the other. For those of us who are brave enough to stare this reality in the face, I don't think Greer is doing us a service if he is trying to “protect us” from the truth, nor it it really anyone's job to do that, in any case...

I totally agree with you on this. There are way too many stories and experienced, not only from whistleblowers, but also from common people that shows clearly we are under a secretive alien intervention. It is not positive of course, but it is here. So, what do we do about it? Being conscious of this reality is the first step on the path of freedom. We can not change what we are not sentient of.

I think in order to clean up the mess that has been made of this planet, some of us at least need to know in detail what has been done behind closed doors, however scary it may be, so that we can energetically send light to the darkness created by there scenarios and help to figure out how to undo it. The general public doesn't have to know all this if they don't want to, or aren't ready for it, but there should be a choice to know the truth, for those who want to take this work on. And I do think it's work of a very transformational nature if taken on in the spirit of truth seeking for the sake of Truth, and deserves respect as such. I for one, am not doing this out of mere curiosity or for distraction or entertainment—it's work, and I am driven to do it by as deep a spiritual need as any I've ever known.

Exactly the same for me here. To me, there is nothing more imperative for humanity. Because when you connect the dots, you come up with the idea that many of our global problems, like over-consumption and pollution, were somewhat behind the scene planned. In the machiavelic ideology to manipulate; create the global problems, then bring up the solution and the masses will follow your lead.

...I have been on a spiritual path for 30 years now myself, and have had some pretty far out experiences too, as I'm sure a lot of others on this forum have. In my journeys, I have met lots of others on spiritual paths, including Zen Masters, Lamas, Yogis and other kinds of spiritual teachers from various backgrounds. So I have some basis for comparison. One thing is sure and that is that the cultivation of powers such as levitation and clairvoyance does not guarantee that a person is unquestionably wise, pure and secure on their path. We are none of us on this plane of existence incapable of making mistakes and suffering spiritual setbacks. There are dangers and pitfalls on the spiritual path that we are all subject to here...

I relate to this. I lived a year in Indonesia, Sulawesi and four years in Amazonas, Brasil among other places I have worked for human rights and electrical technician. I have personally met people with amazing powers, especially linked with martial arts. The magnetism some people can have over others because of their "special gifts" is not a guarantee of their well intended spirit. Knowledge is not wisdom and wisdom does not mean infallibility. Infallibility is an attribute of Creation exclusively, Creation being the only thing worthy of worshiping... This is the base of Freewill.
Your whole post was very well said and thoughtful Onawah. I share your point of view on many things you just said. I too respect Greer for what he has done. I followed disclosure project some years before Project Camelot was created. I saw almost all the witnesses disclosure has brought forward. I was amazed about this gathering and really found it impossible to avoid, even for the most skeptics.

But now... We see a different man. There is no doubt in my mind and I can understand why some people do not like to hear this.

Namaste, Steven

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Old 02-12-2010, 02:14 PM   #287
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And when all else fails, accuse them of being cultists.

Thank you for being obvious about your intent here.
My "intent" is to get as many people as possible to avoid be taken in by such charlatans. My "intent" is for Ufology to crawl up out of the gutter of irrationality and purge itself of the role-playing fakes that clutter the field. I have no delusions that I will be in the least bit successful however.

Having been a long time member of a religious cult myself I recognize the pattern and it is there regardless of how strongly it is denied.
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Old 02-12-2010, 03:11 PM   #288
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

Trainedobserver,

have you ever gone and seen for yourself if the stories about calling in ET using the CSETI protocols are real or not? Or are you just pulling assumptions out of thin air based off of your own universal paradigm. From what I can see that is exactly what is happening. Perhaps you do not want it to be true that our consciousness has the power to reach outside of ourselves and communicate with spiritually advanced societies? Maby that would smash the comfort zone you are living in?

I like you had my doubts. I had already experienced some extremely unbelievable paranormal things happen in my life. So I went to one of the CSETI outings to see for myself if it was real or not. I tend to base my opinions upon evidence, not conjecture. Sometimes that evidence I use to form my opinions is fuzzy to some poeple. However, as long as I have learned to trust it I integrate it.

I was lucky enough to be living within a few hours of Asheville N.C. last year and went to the one day event there. Let me tell you, either Greer is the master of illusion or he is the real deal. We had all kinds of contact and we where only a few miles outside of Asheville. There where multiple people there with night vision scopes. During and after the protocol meditation, there where light orbs floating all around the group. I could see them without the night vision, but most could not. However on the night vision they where like something out of a special effects movie.

Independent people brought there own radar / laser detectors and these little off the shelf devices became interactive with what people where sharing they experienced during the meditation. Explain how out in the middle of a peice of farm land that multiple independent radar / laser detectors are going off on different bands of radar or laser at different times?

Not only that we had a craft fly overhead of the group. It was very high up in the upper part of the atmosphere. However, it was brighter than Venus and made an angular turn at what was probably at least a thousand MPH if not more. Then suddenly it went dim and turned into what looked like a normal aircraft with blinking lights on it.

Also multiple people saw the holographic image of a being emerging from the edge of the tall grass at the edge of the field. One person even caught a frame of it on their camera. It was not in your face, but there was something there. We also had a cloaked ufo strobe and interact with the lasers about 30 degrees off of the horizon multiple times.

After you experience stuff like this, you tend to have a paradigm shift and begin to understand why there is so much smear stuff posted about Greer. It is not a cult for the simple fact that Greer tells all of the people he trains that they should do it on their own and that he does not have to be around to get results. He also tells people not to follow him because he is no more special than anyone else.

Do your research and stop making assumptions that protect the box you think in.
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Old 02-12-2010, 03:40 PM   #289
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My "intent" is for Ufology to crawl up out of the gutter of irrationality and purge itself of the role-playing fakes that clutter the field.
One of the best works in the field that I have seen is Richard Dolan's series of books on "UFOs and the National Security State". Besides documented sightings, he discusses the various mechanisms put in place to manage the cover up. Among these mechanisms is infiltration and control of civilian UFO organizations. Dolan provides references and names names. All civilian UFO organizations are infiltrated and controlled to some degree. Greer has stated that this is his reason for staying separate from the rest of the field. I met a fellow who was a Mufon field investigator many years back. He related an incident where one of his superiors in Mufon fabricated a balloon, launched it, and then used that as an excuse for labelling a very good case report as a hoax. I know of a lady who recently reported a sighting to Mufon and made the mistake of saying that it was the result of using Greer's protocols. The case report was promptly deleted. Evidently CE5s are not part of the approved Mufon message.

I fail to see how denying entire classes of phenomena is "rational". A truly curious person would investigate, even if such phenomena challenged his or her notions of what is real and possible. At one time, talking about landings was not considered "respectable" and mainstream ufologists avoided it. Talk about crashes and beings was likewise avoided. Over time, these things became accepted and now we have astronauts talking about such things on the record.

I'm not sure what aspect of Greer's protocols for establishing contact you would consider "irrational". Being a hard core atheist until just a few years ago, I have some ideas. I can certainly understand how any material for general publication would be in danger of being disregarded as nonsensical for talking about telepathic contact and such things. However, I personally am no longer able to deny that such things are possible. I'm an empericist - this is due to observation and experience, not belief.

If you dig enough, you will find that even the sciences are controlled to prevent the discovery of certain things. The real nature of gravity is one of those things. How do you UFOs move silently, going from hovering to thousands of miles per hour at great accelerations? Field propulsion is not feasible with our current understanding of physics. Should that be used as a reason for denying observations of UFO performance?

I think you've nailed it, though. This is all very much about what we consider real and "rational".
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Old 02-12-2010, 04:20 PM   #290
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I've already posted enough on Greer. If folks still want to engage in his nonsense then so be it. I had no delusions of actually convincing anyone of anything. It is obvious to many serious researchers that Greer is a determent to Ufology.

The incredible amount of B.S. in what passes for Ufology has discouraged many serious investigators and caused them to abandon or consider abandoning the field. When they do all you will have left is the confidence men tickling the ears of the non-critical thinking general population.

The phenomena is real enough however I am almost convinced that it will never be understood because it does not want to be. The mystery and secrecy surrounding the phenomena is not controlled or owned by the government or any other human entity. It is owned and controlled by the phenomena itself. When this sinks into all of our heads we'll see a new wave of discouragement and abandonment I'm sure.

Light shows and "feeling special" about their "expanded consciousness" will keep the cultists and the deluded happy and the con-men clothed and feed but it will not led to open contact, any real information, or progress.
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:46 PM   #291
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trainedobservor, meaning no disrespect, but for all we know about you personally, you could be a disinformation agent yourself out to smear anyone who is making progress with actual positive ET contact. Your name implies that you are trained as an observer. Who trained you? Where are your credentials? What were you trained to observe? Many of us here go by our real names with real photos and a means to check out our backgrounds. There is a spirit of openness that both Kerry and Bill wanted for the members of the forum as Bill really doesn't like false fronts that avatar names provide. I just like to know, who are you to make the kind of posts that you do? What is your level of expertise? How long have you been in the UFO field? What books have you read? Who in the field have you personally had conversations with to form the opinions that you do? What have you researched? In checking out your profile page I noticed you didn't put anything down about yourself at all. Why is that? What are you hiding or afraid of?

onawah, I very much appreciated your thoughtful post and do agree with you on many points. I too share some of the same questions.

Steven, c'est la vie. There is a difference between stating an opinion and outright slander. I reacted. However, I do agree that all of us here are after the truth and hopefully we'll keep an open mind for new information.

lisa, good on you. Your courage to stick up for your beliefs is admirable.
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:12 PM   #292
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

I consider "disinfo" to imply the person is aware what they are saying is not only not true, but is formulated to deliberately mislead people.

Whereas "misinfo" would be someone who believes what they are saying, but those beliefs are caused by that individual being given false information, or making a mistake in their own conclusions.

"Misinfo" happens all the time. It is not malicious. It's just part of our existence.

"Disinfo" is malicious, with the intent to mislead. This is not helping the world, it is self serving.

Greer a Disinfo agent?.. I have no idea. I do not agree with many of his conclusions, but I have also never felt he is deliberately spreading disinfo either. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it won't matter.. I just listen to him, I don't "follow" him. There is a very significant difference in my opinion. I listen to anyone who has something to say, otherwise my conclusions are based on limited information.

The idea, of a medical doctor giving up their practice to chase UFO's in order to gain money does not seem very logical to me.. However I can't totally rule it out either. People do some very illogical things at times.

In my heart I feel Greer is a good man. If he is giving disinfo then I suspect there is a much deeper motivator that money. Either way, I do not require Greer or Mufon or any other group or individual to convince me of anything.

I simply enjoy listening... You can learn many things, ( even from a disinfo "pusher", perhaps just not what they intended.) when you listen.


In light, of love
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Old 02-12-2010, 10:01 PM   #293
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I'm glad to see this discussion continuing and becoming more clarified and refined!

It was late when I entered my last post and I was tired, so I forgot one point in answer to a point Carol made. She cited Greer's devotion to his wife and child, which she thought demonstrated that he could not have been responsible for the nude photos etc that he allegedly posted. While I still agree that it could well have been a clever smear campaign directed at him, I have to take exception to Carol's conclusion, because even actively gay men can also be very devoted to their wives and children.

I also forgot to point out the obvious,that in our homophobic society, when closeted gays admit to themselves that they are gay, it can be a huge, very fearful and stressful time, a time of earth-shaking change for them, leading to erratic behavior, change of loyalties, etc.etc. Becoming public and becoming actively gay can be an even bigger step and can also lead to unusual behavior, emotional breakdowns, etc. . So while I have no idea or real opinion about whether Greer is gay or not, the possibility does factor into the questions about his behavior. If he really is gay and is struggling with uncloseting himself, he certainly needs and deserves our support. If he is being the target of a smear campaign, he also needs and deserves our support. But I also don't really know if that's the whole story. Only time will tell.

I also believe he is a good man, but I think he's walking a very high tightrope, and that is what concerns me the most, not only for his sake, but because his reputation and stature in the Disclosure community has and will likely continue to affect the whole Disclosure Movement so much. If he is gay and is still trying to hide it, it may be why he seems to be uncomfortable in public circles of truth-seekers, who are pretty good at ferreting out secrets!. I would encourage him to Come Out then, because the cat is already out of the bag if that is true, and he will get support from the Disclosure Community if he places his trust there, and I doubt his sexual preference will affect his stature in those circles. If he's not gay, then I think it would be a good idea for him to state so publicly. Lying or pretending like nothing is going on will probably just drag the whole thing on even longer.

While I do not agree with TrainedObserver on most points, I do share frustration about the lack of clear communication between our apparently benevolent Visitors and ourselves. No doubt most whistleblowers including Greer are frustrated too. How many years can one wage this battle and repeat oneself over and over again, continue to fend off the same old poisonous BS, disinfo and misinfo before there is enough definitive proof to allow us to move up to the next level of the work and finally see some of our long cherished goals accomplished? I think the strain has been getting to all of us, but I can imagine that for Dr. Greer, it could be magnified, as much as for those like Bob Dean and other venerable Whistleblowers who have been at this for an even longer time. Patience is certainly a virtue we have to cultivate to stay sane on this journey! I hope that what Dean, David Wilcock and others have been saying, that things are going to start shifting dramatically very soon, is true. It may still get worse before it gets better, but it feels to me like we've been poised on the edge of this precipice long enough.

I also think part of the challenge and responsibility for us is to grow into the more subtle energies enough so that we can all have the types of experiences that Tone3 describes. If we haven't achieved that as yet, it doesn't ring true to discredit those experiences that others have had or to assign value or meaning to them which we obviously cannot truly comprehend..

There are channelers, healers and psychics who are able to bring those energies through so that others may experience them in their presence, and I have experienced that many times. For some years now I have also experienced that kind of energy at times when reading some of the channeled information online, reportedly from higher dimensional beings, and have learned to differentiate between the ones that are giving disinfo or misinfo and the ones who are in touch with something or someone who is genuinely benevolent and far seeing (in my opinion, Lisa Renee is one of these—I see someone on these forums has been copying her messsages). I also like Aluna Joy and Tyberonn. That has helped me a lot in my healing process and in staying in touch with those energies that I believe our planet is moving toward.

For those like myself who don't have the wherewithal to go to Sedona, Crestone or Trout Lake for a CSETI field trip or something similar, and/or don't know how to summon a UFO, it's a pretty good substitute. I believe what these channelers are saying is true (and the Mayans who understand what their Calendar is really saying) that the lies and negative agendas that have been created on our planet will fall to the wayside as our solar system continues to move into a different alignment with the Great Central Sun. (Nassim Haramein has great info about this too- he's a treasure!) So I don't worry about our future, but I do want to play a part in the unfoldment and revealing of the truths which will help us all (and Gaia herself) to make the transition more smoothly and easily.

If we dwell too much on the past and what the negative forces have planned for our future, the possibilities for a bright future become dimmed in our minds, and we lose some of the power we have as individuals to be a conduit for those positive energies. The great thing about looking to the future and imagining how great it will be is that it helps disconnect us from those past agendas and puts us in a different playing field. We ignore the past to our peril, but we don't have to perpetuate it either. We create our own reality by what we focus on...

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Old 02-12-2010, 10:28 PM   #294
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

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Quote:
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I've already posted enough on Greer. If folks still want to engage in his nonsense then so be it. I had no delusions of actually convincing anyone of anything. It is obvious to many serious researchers that Greer is a determent to Ufology. [quoted part of post trimmed]
So I guess that is a no.

Last edited by Karen; 02-12-2010 at 11:44 PM. Reason: trim longish quote
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Old 02-12-2010, 10:33 PM   #295
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

I read some of this thread for the first time today.

I do see people not playing nice in this thread - so I guess the moderators have to work harder now.

For my own contribution to the debate - there are no facts that can be presented with sufficient clarity on a forum that will satisfy all of us. What we have here is the grey area (no pun intended) of "testimony" and its worth remembering that each of us on this forum is allowed to present that and should be able to do so without fear of ridicule, but that does not always seem to be happening.

You were all born with a 100% accurate B******t meter inside you - you can all learn to use it with 100% accuracy but it takes work. Owing to the fact, that none of us have mastered this yet - or maybe some of us have - I dont know, I know I have not. Even if I had, on the forum its still my words and they can be doubted even if they contain truth.

So what we have left is debate and discussion. The moderators are not here to protect anyone or show favours. The moderators are here to see to it that "Avalon" proceeds according to the forum guidelines.

Many recent posters to this thread are encouraged to review thier approaches.

A..

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Old 02-13-2010, 05:00 AM   #296
tone3jaguar
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Heated debate is part of debate, there is no avoiding it. These are sensitive topics, it is going to happen. It is a natural healthy part of the process of learning.
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Old 02-13-2010, 07:10 AM   #297
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Heated debate is part of debate, there is no avoiding it. These are sensitive topics, it is going to happen. It is a natural healthy part of the process of learning.
I agree, so long as people can stay respectful, I say why not let it all out.

My opinion of Greer is that he started out well enough with good intentions before and up to his disclosure project in 2001, but you know what they say; the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I think Greer lead himself to the point of today, which is not really that different from many of the figures in this field, its a very common thing, you know, they get old, their accomplishments start feeling like failures, they have nothing new to say in interviews so they make stuff up, they will have already tried living with integrity but usually end up broke, so they do what most everyone else is doing, try to make money and join the community of alternative entertainers who are just full of stories to tell.

Unfortunately this has a counter effect in that tarnishes the previous good and serious work that he/she/they became renowned for.

Mr. John Lear calls it "UFO disease".

However I do believe that a percentage of those CSETI expeditions do result in genuine ufo sightings, I've met more than one person that confirmed this for me, not including Jnana here at Avalon, who I also definitely believe.

Dr. Greer is neither a disinfo agent nor a 100% completely pure man, he is somewhere in the middle.
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:12 AM   #298
Carol
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Default Re: Dr. Steven Greer, Disinfo Agent? Details Please!

To be perfectly frank, discussing anyone's sexuality on this forum in my personal opinion is offensive. Should we now discuss Kerry's and Bill's sexual preferences? What about the moderators or other members here ~ do you think they might be gay?

What people fail to note is that this forum is about finding safe places, information and resources for building communities, site suggestions. It is not about smearing someone without having the facts... and even if there were facts, sharing someone's personal sexual preference isn't a topic appropriate for this forum - ever!

Personally I would like to see all posts related to Greer's sexuality deleted. It isn't anyone's business and these types of topics should be banned.
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Old 02-16-2010, 03:01 AM   #299
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It's just that everyone simply can't be'' Dr Greer'' ? Have you noticed that ? Not everyone can be ''Ashayana Deene'' either . Problem ? 500 $$ to get there ?

The being you call that and that name , has special talents and above that, he trained himself in those talents ..
not everyone has the same dispositions, constitution, type of intelligence , so, as much as you can train people..
they may not be of any use for this.

ET contact is something you have to be introduced to by ETs, so far.

By that I'm not implying that these people are any better than other people, no but they were forced to accept a role.

We all have a role to play in this drama , the rest depends on timing .

I'm not sure whom am I addressing but need to say , follow your own selves , realize your uniqueness, train yourself . Find your role that perfectly suits your knowledge...pay with real life values .If you mean it , else rather don't pay . People are being misused because of misunderstanding.
You can't get enlightened for 500$$ , you can't get ET contact for that much either , unless it's the last thing you have ..
unless it's the only thing you want , and beware of false promises..
look back and see you have families people and can't take them all to Andromeda so what to do now..see my point ?



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Old 02-16-2010, 05:22 PM   #300
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Your name implies that you are trained as an observer.
The "trained observer" name is nothing but a handle to use in forums and whatnot. It is a vague reference to its use in UFO literature. It is essentially meaningless otherwise. It could have been Pudd'n and Tang for that matter. You are trying too hard. I don't use my real name because it is just as meaningless and I rather like my privacy however, I routinely exchange contact information with individuals who ask for it and I have become familiar with to some degree. I have a great respect for people's privacy and certainly enjoy my own. I've seen too many peoples personal lives destroyed by this subject to be devil-may-care about it. You shouldn't be either.

Quote:
What have you researched? ... books read ...
I have had a life-long interest in UFOs which began at the age of 11 or so for no particular reason than I thought it was an interesting subject. I've read pretty much all I could get my hands on it for over 40 years or so. I have a small library of UFO books and pamphlets (some pretty hard to find) I have collected over the years. I have personally interviewed several people who have shared their experiences with me in confidence. I have never published anything that has ever been told to me in confidence.

I am a trained observer however in one respect. I was trained to observe events that occur in nanoseconds ... using the appropriate instrumentation of course. Something I no longer do. I am also trained to solve problems and present information in a coherent manner (although I frequently fail). I was trained by the various commercial entities that I worked for as many people have been throughout their careers.

The whole "disinfo" business, like most of the UFO business is 99.9% make believe. Government agencies really have no need to interject disinformation into the UFO community. It generates its own quite well. I do however recognize that disinformation campaigns have been run by government and military organizations in the past and undoubtedly continue to this day although for the life of me I don't know why they continue to bother.

I'm sorry if I've hurt anyone's feelings in this discussion about Greer. It is just so obvious from evidence that is readily available to anyone who cares to review it that the man is fabricating so many things that I find it incredible it even has to be pointed out. Sometimes my bed-side manner, so to speak, could be better I admit.

I have been taken advantage of and abused over the years like everyone else. I hate to see others taken advantage of and their good natures abused. So when I perceive a con-job I have to say something. I have an interest in learning the truth about the UFO phenomena however I am extremely discouraged that this will ever take place. The secrecy and mystery surrounding the UFO phenomena is owned and operated by the phenomena itself. Any disclosure or revelation must come from it and not human agents. Sadly, history shows us in stark relief that the UFO phenomena has no intention of revealing itself to us in other than the most obtuse manners imaginable. To take anything presented as "truth" by any aspect of the phenomena itself is a classic mistake often made. The word of alleged aliens is notoriously unreliable and should be viewed with great suspicion and caution. It should be obvious from Greer's own statements that he has 'gone native' and believes whatever he thinks they tell him (if they are indeed communicating with him). I cannot put enough emphasis on how dangerous such a thing can be and how far from the truth it can lead you.

So, peace, love, and all that jazz.

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