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Old 12-06-2008, 03:40 PM   #1
idunno
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Default -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate?
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12/6/2008 10:30 AM

Quote:
do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate?


our body is about 70% water.
you can talk to water and change it. Emoto in Japan.
so, when we talk to each other,
is it possible we are talking to the water
in each other's bodies?
good happy vibrations affect water.
so those same vibes might affect the water in your body.
which in turn affects your brain.

the dowser Raymon Grace and the Toronto dowsers
got me thinking about this.

water, it's such a strange thing.
we cannot make more of it, maybe take the salt out of seawater.
with more people born, water is being formed into bodies.
water becomes able to communicate to other water when it takes the form of a human.

are we taking human form to enable water to talk?
is water the highest form of life on the planet?

do we exist just for the pleasure of water having fun talking to other molecules of water?
is water using humans for its own entertainment?
Quote:
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 490694
12/6/2008 10:31 AM Re: do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? Quote

No.

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 521699
12/6/2008 10:31 AM Re: do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? Quote

yes

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 558244
12/6/2008 10:31 AM Re: do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? Quote

no? that's it? how do you know? can you prove it?
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...sage679571/pg1

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Old 12-06-2008, 03:42 PM   #2
idunno
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Default Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

Can a single molecule behave as a mirror?
(PhysOrg.com) -- “We have shown for the first time, theoretically, that a single molecule can behave as a perfect mirror,” Mario Agio tells PhysOrg.com. “Imagine that your mirror at home becomes a single molecule and that you put a strong lens between you and it. Well, you could still see the image of your face reflected…[A]mazing if you think that a molecule is just about a nanometer in size.”
http://www.physorg.com/news146230733.html
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

Wave
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

48-2=46--46/2= http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8666
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:07 PM   #5
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Default Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

btw.. -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? - or not?
idunno Today 04:48 PM
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:09 PM   #6
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Exclamation Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

......depicts the consonant intervals (sometimes referred to as "harmonic tuning" or "Just Scale") in rational number with the corresponding decimal and the "equal temperament" (E-T) scale for comparison..... The syllable for the solfe-ge &
AstralWalker>>
Quote:

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Old 12-06-2008, 04:57 PM   #7
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Old 12-06-2008, 05:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

pick http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedi.../W00026363.jpg
from Cosmic Bee SATURN AND THE WAR IN THE HEAVENS
Strange Saturn: WHAT EXACTLY AM I LOOKING AT? RSS
Quote:
User ID: 552990
11/17/2008 9:36 AM

Strange Saturn: WHAT EXACTLY AM I LOOKING AT?
Quote



[link to saturn.jpl.nasa.gov]




[link to saturn.jpl.nasa.gov]


SATURN AND THE WAR IN THE HEAVENS RSS
Cosmic Bee

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[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]


Check out the pics...

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Old 12-07-2008, 04:28 PM   #9
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Lightbulb Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

coma camaAh
kama*comma
norma&th-e-G-R-EA-T-r-Actor>> http://web.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/ja..._chart-NEW.jpg
what is Amar-?
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Old 12-07-2008, 04:42 PM   #10
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Electron in Motion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valence_(chemistry)
Space ? Real coordinate space?
(δ bonds) >> structure of water
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_bondhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wpDicW_MQQ&feature=related
answers.com/Q/Compare>>

A:
Coulomb's Law states:
The magnitude of the electrostatic force between two point electric charges is directly proportional to the product of the magnitudes of each charge and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the charges

Newton's Law of gravitation states:
Every point mass attracts every other point mass by a force pointing along the line intersecting both points. The force is proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the point masses:
Similarity: 1) Both apply the inverse-square law; intenity inversely proportional to square of the distance. 2) Talking about spherical objects i.e. point charge, point mass. Differences: 1) one is about large mass; one is about small size huge charges. 2) Gravitation is ONLY ABOUT attraction and NO repulsion. Coulomb's force has both attraction and repulsion
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Compare_an...al_gravitation
quarks-optimized-1
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Old 12-07-2008, 04:57 PM   #11
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Default Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

uum of a dynamic Native American history as long as we keep it ... - [ UUM ]uum of a dynamic Native American. history as. long as we keep it trapped within the frame- .... element in the. history of such museums and. is often in ...
www.jstor.org/stable/681731 -
[--] ALICE --
The vacuum is filled with virtual quarks and anti-quarks pairs ... are locked forever in particles out of which only protons and neutrons have survived. ...
aliceinfo.cern.ch/static/EditorialTalks/Torinoa.pps
Energy<>Mass conversion Text - Physics Forums Library - [ 10 .... ]
an electron positron pair can materialize from the vacuum field and exist .... However, energy conservation will not allow it, as the mass of a neutron is ...
http://www.physicsforums.com/archive.../t-177827.html - 15k -
God Exists - [ Swayambhu ]Earth, water, fire, air and ether are His five powers. Maya is His illusive Shakti (power). God is Swayambhu, self-existent. He does not depend upon others ...
www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/god_exists.htm - 283k - When there is no dielectric material between the charges (for example, in free space or a vacuum),
[Permittivity of free space]

Swayambhu, "the self-existent", hence the Logos, and the progenitor of mankind .... wherein there is spiritual vacuum or draught due to sensory attachments, ...
http://www.livingspark.net/pdf/SPIRI...UGE%20MYTH.pdf
http://www.makara.us/05ref/03charts/...2_logos_ss.jpg
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Old 12-07-2008, 05:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Quote:
Sorry, this GeoCities site is currently unavailable.
The GeoCities web site you were trying to view has temporarily exceeded its data transfer limit. Please try again later.

Are you the site owner? Avoid service interruptions in the future by increasing your data transfer limit! Find out how.

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>>


Method 2

In this method a distant light source is reflected into the eye via two parallel paths:

reflected from a unconnected PMT photocathode and

reflected from the silvered surrounding of the photocathode via a

piece of attenuating film.



The attenuation of the piece of film is selected until the two images appear the same brightness.

Under these conditions: –

A x R = A x (film attenuation)2

(Remembering light passes through the attenuator film twice.)



So R, the coefft of reflection of the PMT photocathode = (film attenuation)2



R can now be determined by measuring the attenuation of the attenuator film. This is done in Fig. B using the PMT as a light intensity measurer and of course connected to its normal counting circuitry.


7 richis

Hi AllL

the spin-orbit effect splits the 3P-->3S transition in sodium(which gives rise to the yellow light of sodium vapor highway lamps) into two lines 589.0 nm corresponding to 3P sub 3/2-->3S sub 1/2 and 589.6nm corresponding to 3P sub 1/2 --> 3S sub 1/2.

How can I use these wavelengths to calculate the effective magnetic field experinced by the outer electron in the sodium atom as a result of its orbital motion ??
Formulas and Equations:
c = λ × f λ = c / f = c × T f = c / λ

View Full Version : Is Mass Really Condensed Energy
Quote:
onychoJun17-06, 07:19 AM
A. Einstein contended that (E=mc2) energy was equal to mass X velocity of light squared.

Does is it not follow that M=e/c2 or that mass is really condensed energy?

If mass is truly energy, then what is it that we observe from our mind's point of reference?

Finally what is energy?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

pervectJun17-06, 01:27 PM
In physics, energy is the ability of a system to do work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy

Work is defined by force * distance (in an inertial frame)

If you consider particle / antiparticle reactions (say an electron and an anti-electron), you can see examples of how mass can be converted into energy. This does not mean, however, that the energy contained in a mass M is necessarily fully accessible to us. Generally, it is not accessible, unless we have access to a supply of antimatter of equal mass.

Anti-matter does not occur naturally (as far as we know) and has to be artifically produced. The amount of energy it takes to produce anti-matter is much more than the energy which it actually liberates.

As far as whether matter is "really" condensed energy, that's a bit philosophical. What experimental tests would convince you that it was? What experimental tests would convince you that it wasn't?

M
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...=12262&page=23

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Quote:

Re: Antimatter, matter and time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that observation was originally due to Feynman. Draw something like a large "M" on a sheet of paper. Think of the space axis as horizontal and the time axis as vertical. Take a straight edge, place it horizontally across the bottom of the page and move it slowly up the page. Think of the points at which the lines cross your straightedge as being the positions of particles at the present time. Initially you have two particles that are moving toward each other. Think of the particle on your left as being an electron and the particle on the right as being a positron.

When your straightedge meets the central "V" of the "M", two new particles magically appear out of nowhere! That is a "creation pair"- a particle and its anti-particle, an electron and a positron. Now continue moving the straight edge up the paper. You now have two pairs of particle moving toward each other, one pair on the left, the other on the right. When you finally reach the two "/\" points of the "M" those two pair disappear: an electron and a positron have annihilated each other. The electron that was originally on the left has annihilated the positron that was created in the middle and the electron that was created in the middle has annihilated the postitron that was initially on the right.

Now lift your straightedge and look at the "M" itself. Do you see that you can think of that a single track: as an electron coming in on the left, moving "forward in time" then suddenly is turned "back in time" until, at the "V" it turns "forward in time" again , eventually hits the top "/\" and turns back in time once more. The movement "back in time" is what we, with our limited "one instant" perspective, see as a positron.

You might suspect that it would take some real cataclysm to change motion "forward in time" to "backward in time" and vice-versa. That's exactly right! It is the enormous energy, E= mc2, necessary to create an eletron-positron pair or given up when such a pair annihilates.

I have no idea how "serious" Feynman was when he proposed this but it does answer one basic question: All electrons are identical because there's really only one electron, bouncing back and forth in time!


Nov8-08, 09:38 AM #6
Unredeemed


Re: Antimatter, matter and time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by lewi
Now i understand everything and nothing at the same time

well its the same ...as always ...2 me
or iI
__________________
"If speaking is through speech,
if breathing is through breath,
if seeing is through eyes,
if hearing is through ears,
if thinking is through mind,
then who am I ? ~ Eternal Stories from the Upanishads ~

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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03-12-2008, 03:31 AM #227
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Senior Member




Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,395 The Planes of Existence

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Planes of Existence
...
Gross/Gross Physical
Etheric/Imaginal/Subtle/Subtle Physical
Causal
Transcendent Physical

Orectic
Ideational
Higher Spiritual
Divine
...

__________________
"If speaking is through speech,
if breathing is through breath,
if seeing is through eyes,
if hearing is through ears,
if thinking is through mind,
then who am I ? ~ Eternal Stories from the Upanishads ~

The Real and the Apparent Man
Swami Vivekananda
(Delivered in New York )
Quote:
Yet, this analysis is only partial. This much has been known even to modern physical science. Beyond that, the research of physical science cannot reach. But the inquiry does not stop in consequence. We have not yet found that one, by knowing which everything else will be known. We have resolved the whole universe into two components, into what are called matter and energy, or what the ancient philosophers of India called Akasha and Prana. The next step is to resolve this Akasha and the Prana into their origin. Both can be resolved into the still higher entity which is called mind. It is out of mind, the Mahat, the universally existing thought-power, that these two have been produced. Thought is a still finer manifestation of being than either Akasha or Prana. It is thought that splits itself into these two. The universal thought existed in the beginning, and that manifested, changed, evolved itself into these two Akasha and Prana: and by the combination of these two the whole universe has been produced.


http://books.google.nl/books?id=ot8Y...um=3&ct=result

at-ma
Atom is the smallest particle of an atom!

Atom

I INTRODUCTION



http://cell-atom.blogspot.com/
ARTICLE 12a - ESOTERIC KNOWLEDGE OF SLEEP
Figure 12b – The Arrangement of the Subtle Bodies in the Waking State Falling Asleep
http://www.esotericscience.org/article12a.htm
Dream Brain
http://fusionanomaly.net/iching.html


[...]

...an "I' comes about - in my view, at least - via a kind of vortex whereby patterns in a brain miror the brain's mirroring of the world, and eventually mirror themselves, whereupon the vortex of "I" becomes real, causal entity. For an imperfect but vivid concrete analogue to this curious abstract phenomenon, think of what happens when a TV camera is pointed at a TV screen so as to display the screen on itself (and that screen on itself, etc.) - what in GEB I called a "self-engulfing television", and in my later writings I sometimes call a "level-crossing feedback loop."


/loops

Last edited by idunno; 12-07-2008 at 05:50 PM. Reason: ARTICLE 12a - ESOTERIC KNOWLEDGE OF SLEEP
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Old 12-07-2008, 05:52 PM   #13
Rareheart
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Default Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

Hiya idunno,

Quote:
do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -
thought creates water and humans...who uses whom for communication purposes seems irrelevant in that context.


Quote:
The universal thought existed in the beginning, and that manifested, changed, evolved itself into these two Akasha and Prana: and by the combination of these two the whole universe has been produced.
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Old 12-07-2008, 05:54 PM   #14
idunno
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View Full Version : Nuclear battery


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

{~}08.14.06, 05:30 PM
I was going to post this in the nuclear engineering forum but my question is really more electrical.

A beta emiter is a radioactive substance which radiates electrons (beta particals) in all directions.

My question is, is there a way to generate electricity from electrons traveling away from a spherical source?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dlgoff08.14.06, 06:02 PM
Most beta emitters (well the ones I've worked with) are not very energetic. Like C14; the particles can be stopped by a couple sheets of paper. But I quess there's a little energy you could gain from. I don't know how you would make a battery though.

Regards

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{~}08.14.06, 06:04 PM
well wha if it were a strong source? Isn't ther any process in electronics where you might do something like this?

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berkeman08.14.06, 07:02 PM
Put the emitter ball inside a larger concentric sphere, and connect the load resistance between the outer metal sphere and the inner beta emitter. Seems like it would work.

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chroot08.14.06, 07:26 PM
Problem 1:

A metric ton (1000 kg) of carbon-14 has about 6 \cdot 10^{29} atoms. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_14 (Wikipedia), Carbon-14 has a specific activity of 14 disintegrations per minute (dpm) per gram carbon.

Thus, a metric ton of carbon-14 undergoes about 233,000 disintegrations per second.

A typical hair dryer consumes 15 amperes of current at 110 volts. This means that approximately 200,000,000,000,000,000,000 electrons are travelling through the hair dryer every second.

If you wanted to power your hair dryer with the electrons ejected by beta decay, you'd need something on the order of 30 trillion tons of carbon-14. Doesn't sound very efficient, does it?

Problem 2

As the electrons are ejected from the atoms of a beta-radioactive substance, the remaining atoms become more and more positively charged. It would be quite difficult to continue pulling electrons from them indefinitely.

- Warren

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NoTime08.14.06, 07:32 PM
My question is, is there a way to generate electricity from electrons traveling away from a spherical source?
I can't see this as any normal battery, because you arn't generating any holes for the electrons to move back into.
OTOH if you simply put a sphere around the source it seems like the sphere should eventually generate a negative charge with respect to ground(in this case literally ground)

Problem is that 1 amps worth of current for a second represents something like 6 X10^18 electrons. That is a lot of decay events. Using it as some sort of power source seems to be shy a few orders of magnitude.

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NoTime08.14.06, 07:37 PM
Problem 2

As the electrons are ejected from the atoms of a beta-radioactive substance, the remaining atoms become more and more positively charged. It would be quite difficult to continue pulling electrons from them indefinitely.

- Warren
Do they?
If C14 decays to C13 arn't the number of protons the same. The electron shels would stay the same with the same occupancy.

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chroot08.14.06, 07:48 PM
How in the world is carbon-14 going to decay to carbon-13? Are you suggesting that somehow a neutron just "jumps" out of the nucleus?

Perhaps you do not understand what beta decay is: the decay of a neutron into a proton and an electron (and an electron antineutrino). Carbon-14 decays to Nitrogen-14 via beta decay.

- Warren

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chroot08.14.06, 07:51 PM
I can't see this as any normal battery, because you arn't generating any holes for the electrons to move back into.
OTOH if you simply put a sphere around the source it seems like the sphere should eventually generate a negative charge with respect to ground(in this case literally ground)

This is not true -- this would violate the conservation of charge, which does not happen in any particle decay.

- Warren

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NoTime08.14.06, 08:07 PM
How in the world is carbon-14 going to decay to carbon-13? Are you suggesting that somehow a neutron just "jumps" out of the nucleus?

Perhaps you do not understand what beta decay is: the decay of a neutron into a proton and an electron (and an electron antineutrino). Carbon-14 decays to Nitrogen-14 via beta decay.

- Warren
Fair enough.
My knowledge of decay paths leaves something to be desired.
OTOH this decay path generates a hole for an electron to move back into as in berkeman's post.

PS: Wouldn't that have to be N-13 and not 14?

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chroot08.14.06, 08:19 PM
Yes, you could conceivably create a circuit, allowing the ejected electrons to move through a circuit before coming back to the sample. (I thus retract my "Problem 2.")

And no, the decay product is definitely nitrogen-14. Carbon-14 has 6 protons and 8 nuetrons. If one of those neutrons decays into a proton (+ electron, etc.) the resulting atom has 7 protons and 7 neutrons, and is nitrogen-14.

- Warren

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NoTime08.14.06, 09:12 PM
:rofl: I never could add.

What's the basis for the nuclear batteries used on some spacecraft?

Is it something like this with a high rate alpha or beta emitter or is it a thermal process?

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{~}08.14.06, 10:16 PM
Spacecraft use a thermal process. The decaying source generates heat which is simply tapped into with thermal couples.

I wasn't expecting to get one electron volt per electron emitted or anything like that. What I was thinking was to try and tap into their kinetic energy using inductance. They do, after all, have moving magnetic fields.

Forget about the whole nuclear thing for minuet. What if you had a magically powered electron gun that could be used to power something else? How would you generate electricity from that?

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NoTime08.14.06, 11:20 PM
Spacecraft use a thermal process. The decaying source generates heat which is simply tapped into with thermal couples.
This was always my impression, but this thread made me realize I didn't actually know how it was done.

I wasn't expecting to get one electron volt per electron emitted or anything like that. What I was thinking was to try and tap into their kinetic energy using inductance. They do, after all, have moving magnetic fields.
I'm thinking you might be worse off this way.
I seem to recall that the ejection speeds are fairly low as such things go and with a mass of 10^-28g or so...
Might do better with an alpha emitter.
Don't know.

Forget about the whole nuclear thing for minuet. What if you had a magically powered electron gun that could be used to power something else? How would you generate electricity from that?
Don't see how. The efficiency would always be less than 100%.

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{~}08.14.06, 11:25 PM
Does it matter if you don't have perfect efficiency? For the point of this thought experiment the electron gun is powered by something else entirely that we can't tap and aren't controling in any way. The electron gun emits an incoherent beam of electrons. We can't control the gun in any way. The gun could potentialy be a source of energy but the only thing we can manipulate is the beam.

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Astronuc08.15.06, 07:42 AM
Spacecraft use a thermal process. The decaying source generates heat which is simply tapped into with thermal couples.

Radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs) have been used to power spacecraft for decades.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionar...ic%20generator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiois...tric_generator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems..._Power_Program
http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/mes...dmess/RTG.html
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/safety.cfm
http://sse.jpl.nasa.gov/scitech/display.cfm?ST_ID=705 ('Expanding Frontiers with Radioisotope Power Systems' - pdf download available)

What if you had a magically powered electron gun that could be used to power something else? How would you generate electricity from that? :uhh: Magically?!? Well, an electron gun would produce a current of electrons, which IS electricity.

Lower efficiency just means that one has to produce more energy from one source to get a particular amount of electrical energy. For a system of 25% efficiency, one must generate 4 kW of power from a source to get 1 kW of electrical energy. At 33.3% efficiency one would only need to develop 3 kW of power to get 1 kW of electrical energy.

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NoTime08.15.06, 07:50 AM
Does it matter if you don't have perfect efficiency? For the point of this thought experiment the electron gun is powered by something else entirely that we can't tap and aren't controling in any way. The electron gun emits an incoherent beam of electrons. We can't control the gun in any way. The gun could potentialy be a source of energy but the only thing we can manipulate is the beam.
Tapping the beam current seems to be the best way.
Ie: put whatever you want to power in the electron return path.
The beam itself would constitute a DC current, so you would need to steer it in and out of a transformer core or have a pulsed beam.
Also you might get something using the Hall effect.
Edit: Or thermal effects.
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Old 12-07-2008, 05:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

Oscillation is the repetitive variation, typically in time, ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave
A wave is a disturbance that propagates through space and time, usually with transference of energy. While a mechanical wave exists in a medium (which on deformation is capable of producing elastic restoring forces), waves of electromagnetic radiation (and probably gravitational radiation) can travel through vacuum, that is, without a medium. Waves travel and transfer energy from one point to another...
Surface waves in water
>>><<<< read the Navigator’s name written > Columbus was 100%.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_(geometry)[IMG]://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/1919_eclipse_negative.jpg/300px-1919_eclipse_negative.jpg[/IMG]M-ir-ror >> so the unit vector is
http://razd.evcforum.net/Age_Dating.htm
(“The Language of Der Spiegel”)...., http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Throu..._%28episode%29
where is the norm (or length) of .The term normalized vector is sometimes used as a synonym for unit vector.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_vector ..thumb/a/ad/Spherical_coordinate_surfaces
Water on the moon - [ -- ]The spectrometer measures neutrons that are formed when the moon is bombarded ... those cold lunar shadows, and thus would probably evaporate and disappear. ...
whyfiles.org/060moons/ourmoon2.html - 8k - In cache
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_space
Physics Letters B : Conventional sources of fast neutrons in “cold ... - [ --]In “cold fusion” experiments with heavy water a source of neutrons is the dissociation of .... so that the radioactive signal could disappear with time. ...
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/0370269389905455 -
door M Cribier - 1989 -
Gain factors with the new supermirror guide system at the Budapest ... - [ --]to install there a cold-neutron source and a neutron-guide. system. A 15×27 m .... epithermal component disappears from the neutron spectrum, ...
www.springerlink.com/index/0J62GN53PAY822KX.pdf - Gelijkwaardige pagina's
door L Rosta - 2002 - Geciteerd door 1 - Verwante artikelen - Alle 3 versies
Neutronic analysis of a liquid- He source for ultra-cold neutron ... - [-- ]UCN disappears by neutron β-decay rather than up-scattering. due to phonon annihilation. ... 0.316µeV (g < 76) at both boundaries (i.e. vacuum boundary ...
www.springerlink.com/index/ADTD0RRVXK7F1FUL.pdf -
Authors
Y. Abe1, N. Morishima1
1Department of Nuclear Engineering, Kyoto University, Yoshida, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501, Japan


Abstract

Ultra-cold neutron (UCN) production and storage in a liquid-4He source are evaluated by means of multi-group neutron-transport analysis. Using the cross-section model developed by the authors, a set of group constants for liquid 4He at many different temperatures down to 0.1 K is generated. Major results thus obtained are as follows. As the temperature is decreased below about 0.5 K, the UCN density shows a saturation behavior because of no significant up-scattering and UCN loss by neutron #-decay only. Single down-scattering of a 1-meV neutron and also multiple scattering of a higher-energy neutron contribute largely to UCN production. A high UCN density of 12105 cm-3 is possible with a high reflectivity of a storage vessel, say over 0.9999.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-set_topology
In mathematics, general topology or point-set topology is the branch of topology which studies properties of topological spaces and structures defined on them. It is distinct from other branches of topology in that the topological spaces may be very general, and do not have to be at all similar to manifolds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold

Last edited by idunno; 12-07-2008 at 06:25 PM. Reason: repetitive variation
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Old 12-07-2008, 06:45 PM   #16
idunno
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Default Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rareheart View Post
Hiya idunno,



thought creates water and humans...who uses whom for communication purposes seems irrelevant in that context.
Hi! What Iz NeGa-T-ivam Sunya?

i?
...awakening from the dream 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG3ftoJhSKA

What it Means to Be Real......... //I?..... it follows that almost all real numbers are irrational.[1] Perhaps the most well known irrational numbers are π, e and √2.[2][3][4]

....silhouette of the subject.

The use of equal negative space, as a balance to positive space, in a composition is considered by many as good design. This basic and often overlooked principle of design gives the eye a "place to rest," increasing the appeal of a composition through subtle means. The term is also used by musicians to indicate silence within a piece.


[edit] See also
Mu (negative)
Wu wei, a term in Chinese philosophy
Ma (negative space), a word of Japanese origin used in art and design

[edit] References
^ language definition
^ Referenced from several webpages including:
[1]
[2]
[3]
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Old 12-07-2008, 07:31 PM   #17
idunno
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-do humans exist for ...

YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS
Lucian Ilea
User ID: 350414
1/5/2008 7:46 AM
Quote:
YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS


NO ONE CARES IF YOU'RE IN THIS WORLD OR NOT
ALMOST NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU DO OR HOW UNHAPPY YOU REALLY ARE
NO ONE CARES ABOUT MORALE,LAWS ,SEXUAL AND RELIGIOUS CUSTOMS
EVERYONE JUST PLAYS WITH YOUR MIND
SO LIVE LIFE TODAY
BECAUSE TOMORROW YOU'LL BE DEAD
DONT INVEST TIME IN GETTING YOU TO DO WHAT YOU WANT
DONT INVEST TIME IN TRANSFORMING YOU INTO A SLAVE
DONT INVEST TIME AND ENERGY IN OTHERS UNLESS THAT IS SERVING YOU
DONT SPEND TIME IN SCHOOLS
DONT SPEND TIME IN GETTING FAMOUS
JUST DO NOW WHAT YOU WANT AND WHAT IS GOOD

__________
Lucifer.Zalmoxe.Hermes.Kaital II.Toth.Ram.Apollo.Jesus.Enki.Osiris.Saturn.Lucian Ilea.Nimrod.Marduk.Jade Emperor.Alexandru.Silver Pahishah.Quetzalcoatl.Caligulas.Popocatepetl.Dan.J ulius Caesar.Light Bringer
We are in the last stages of our planetary little drama
All the posts of this energy being have absolutely no connection with stupidity or ignorance,so read them at your own risk!
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Old 12-07-2008, 07:39 PM   #18
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Does Today = Yesterday? Return of the Gods, Looking at a larger picture shows the plan... Rating Options Track this topic

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Orion von Koch
Nov 13 2008, 04:28 PM Post #1


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Educator, Journalist, Writer, and working international designer/ illustrator. Loves Archaeology, Philosophy, Science Fiction and Deep Stuff.




We are witnessing the Rebirth of the Elite Gods with this Financial Thing. Yes, it is how they will divide the nation with the very rich becoming the gods and we the silly dumb people will become the serfs once again. We will wallow in the dirt of our own making. We will starve and fight and kill just to survive. We will lose our homes and cities via the Hell Wars that are about to follow the destruction of The United States by the Liberals of this nation. They will become the Gods while we live in boxes and stand in line to become solient Green. Folks, if you think it is bad, just hide and watch what happens when they take what little money we have now. Get ready to eat dirt.


Human History May Change With
Re-evaluated Studies of Data


What if there is evidence that humanity was once just as advanced or more so than we are today? What if flying machines, cars, computers, radios, televisions, nuclear weapons, lasers, spacecraft, advanced medicine, genetic engineering, and master-building-design were representations of a civilization like ours only it was firmly held in the hands of the very rich and the politically-powerful elite? They might have ruled the earth via technology, fear, and supreme intelligence. They could prolong life and discovered the secrets of being and becoming. Compared to common man they seemed like gods and positioned themselves accordingly. Could our civilization be polarizing in this direction now, with the rich getting richer and the poorer masses exploding toward obscurity? Is this what the War on Terrorism might eventually produce?

This small but highly aware power-group may have ruled on the Earth some 10,000 to 15,000 years ago (some say more). The evidence of this epoch setting period does exist everywhere, and it is reinforced more every day by the finds of archaeologist, anthropologists, and other scientists. The truth of some of their work never reaches the public ear however, because it would require a gestalt paradigm shift for most of us to even understand the implications of such enigmatic data. Instead, we are offered the preliminary-spin from cautious minds not able to entirely perceive the real meanings behind the remains of Earth's past history. To them, a fertility-cult is always responsible for whatever looks strange.

The accomplishments of ancient man are many and powerful when one puts away the weak assessments and lack of creative thought by the learned experts from the elitist institutions and universities. It is as though there is and was a conspiracy among these folks to hide the truth of an incomprehensible civilization. One that has always been kept hidden behind a facade of ancestral worship, astrology, savagery, cursory bloodletting and other forms of supreme underestimation or outright concealment of ancient capabilities and intellect. The reality and mythology of the past is out of focus with academic assessments of actual artifacts. It seems they have forgotten where we are with technology today…with the capability to genetically reengineer civilization -- just like what must have happened to our ancestors or us for that matter.


The collective scientific community seems to support one another in a common "story" about our past. Are they afraid of the truth or do they protect something much larger? Perhaps they protect themselves. Zecharia Sitchin has taken a scholarly approach to an Eric von Daniken-like theory of our past. He has torn back the veil of Isis to expose the possibility that we did and possibly still do, have gods of super advanced technology living among us or the stars. He has presented evidence of the Anunnaki, who were human-like beings from the planet Nibiru (planet “X” 39 au away, currently coming into our solar system?) living on Earth for perhaps half a million years. He has gleaned this evidence from the ancient records of the Sumerians, Egyptians, Hittites, and the Tiwanakuans of Lake Titicaca of Bolivia (before the Inca). His work is collected in THE EARTH CHRONICLES, a series of books dedicated to deep research into the why of such magnificent engineering accomplishments as the Great Pyramids, Baalbek, Teotihucan, Tower of Babylon, and much more. Even the Bible offers this information, yet many see it in the light of a lesser gestalt-paradigm and flippantly pass it off.
Many of Sitchin's questions have gone unanswered by today's scholars who prefer to explain away phenomenal engineering feats requiring advanced thought in the simplest of terms. For anyone who has actually seen the sites such as the Great Pyramid of Egypt, the markings that run dead-straight for eight miles in the deserts of Nazca Peru, or even the beautiful constructions in Mexico--some of the puny conclusions by scholars seem totally out of context with the evidence.

An example--a few years ago the Japanese tried to construct a 35-foot tall miniature version of the Great Pyramid, which is almost 482 feet tall. In the end they had to resort to modern earth-moving and lifting technology which ultimately could not do the job. Modern man had to abandon this attempt to emulate ancient man. The Great Pyramid is 2.3 million blocks of 5,000 lb. perfectly dressed stone. Stress relieving stones in the King's Chamber are estimated at 50 to 80 tons. In other parts of Egypt, stones weighing 200 tons were routinely positioned in the Osireion. Scholars suggest that the Egyptians would have had to position 6.7 stone blocks per minute in order to build the limestone structure in the 20 years calculated for the construction. If this were true, forces greater than any I am familiar with would have had to be used and I pushed around some large stones in West Texas.

In the fortress at Baalbek in Lebanon, the use of 1,000 ton monolithic stones pique the interest of any thinking engineer of today, especially one who wrestles with 150 ton beams for some of our "massive" projects. Of course, there are thousands and thousands of unanswered questions like the above.

Even von Daniken's work begins to take on a realness when one finds an old National Geographic from 1933 corroborating the "Band of Holes," that he personally inspected a few years ago. Each hole is a meter wide and just as deep. There are eight holes spanning 24 meters in width, marching in repetitive uniform fashion, from the Pisco Valley rolling over numerous miles of hills and mountains -- finally disappearing in the misty mass of Peru. These holes remind this old West Texas boy of the traces left by a massive drilling rig moving along methodically, testing the geology of the Andes for precious metals. Lasers have also left such tracings in the ground. Archaeologists say they represented defensive positions or graves for the ancient ones, except why would you bury anyone on a slope in rocky soil at more than a 45-degree angle?

But my friends, there are tons of anomalies in the mysterious lands of South America -- Colombian models of delta winged forms, giant pyramids in the Amazon Basin, built on mountain slopes covered by inaccessible jungles and others are examples. Are these mysteries part of why Teddy Roosevelt was so introspective upon his return from the Amazonian adventure which eventually caused his death? This is an area where satellites from space represent the best vehicles for discovery of the great structures or patterns on the ground. The Amazon hides “tall, robust” civilizations of the past, that have been radio-carbon dated just recently to over 10,000 years old, and it seems we have not even scratched the edges of this area's massive hidden potential for learning the true “why” of its humanity.

In Bolivia, the archaic site of Tiwanaku on the shores of Lake Titicaca represents one of the greatest question marks for all mankind. Here are the remains of a city with one of the most sophisticated sewer systems for even modern times. According to archaeologist Alan Kolata from the University of Chicago, he has never seen or heard of a better system. His awe is also taken by the remarkable agricultural system of canals and hydraulic systems that he is even now using to increase potato production for area residents. The raised field system used by the ancients must have occupied 400 to 500 square miles and could easily have fed the 100,000 or more ancient residents living on the arid Altiplano. One wonders what grand questions hide under Lake Titicaca.

Kolata and Oswaldo Rivera of the Bolivian National Institute of Archaeology are currently excavating this great area which includes 2.5 square miles of an advanced form of building. There are pyramids with some interlocking stones weighing 160 tons. Many of the structures offer interior hydraulic systems that control water, which runs under and through the massive structures. It has been said that this site contains the biggest stone-built buildings in the Americas and everywhere archaeologists are finding that the concisely cut stones are interlinked by copper clamps to hold them together. Not even the more recent Inca culture knew to use the clamps. Many of the structures also use the interlocking stone work, which is famous in Peru, but a different twist is found in evidence at Tiwanaku. These stones resemble the work of a master gunsmith, with complex breach-locking levels and sophisticated cuts that have never been seen in any other ancient culture. No written language has been found but unusual designs that compare to configurations of today’s computer chips have been unearthed. How did these geniuses of engineering, make do without a written language? Some say the original language is computer compatible.

If humankind could suffer a gestalt paradigm shift, thus enabling us to see anew the reality of what we are now discovering about life on Earth and the Universe, then perhaps we would realize that we have been here before. Some ancient records say that this is the 5th round of existence that we are experiencing. Cycles are in evidence everywhere in nature and in mathematics. Could the past records of Earth finally push human intellect beyond the little minds that we are now perceiving life through to a higher level of understanding, thereby letting us spring from the pedestal of this planet into the oceans of new learning that await us to finally arrive? And, when we do, will we know the territory when we see it?

Unless we open our minds to this easily perceived potential -- of beings as advanced as we are today and more, thus impacting our current genetic and nano-projected civilization -- we will never attain the level of their past examples. It is so readily apparent when one sees "gestaltly" the whole record of existence.

O M said, "This is our moment, this is our time." Is this code for those who know the plan???

This post has been edited by Orion von Koch: Nov 13 2008, 04:36 PM
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Old 12-07-2008, 07:59 PM   #19
idunno
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whosa --weeeeena--argh-->

whats ..a vina?... is a vina (pronounced "veena")>>

About...... > History (of с п a с E ртаm?)
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:03 PM   #20
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http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt
космос По-русски
MEMBRANA | Робот-принтер размером с портальный кран распечатает дома - [ ... ]21 апр 2005 ... Робот-принтер размером с портальный кран распечатает дома. ... Более того, земная технология может однажды подняться в космос. ...
http://www.membrana.ru/articles/inve...21/192200.html - 48k - In cache -
Наука: открытия и исследования, космос и авиация, генетика и ... - [ .... ]23.10.2005 США: робот-принтер размером с портальный кран распечатает дома ... дом разрабатывает планы пилотируемых космических полетов к другим планетам ...
news.battery.ru/theme/science/?newsId=1831698&from_m=smail - 54k -
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:04 PM   #21
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.............................
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Old 12-07-2008, 09:32 PM   #22
goody8504
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Default Re: -do humans exist for the purpose of enabling water molecules to communicate? -

it seems more like a function of human beings rather than the actual purpose. i believe the purpse of a human being, along with everything else, is to experience.
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Old 12-07-2008, 10:20 PM   #23
idunno
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&valente-in- experienc-ing- function of Pi ?
.......in the E_g_G >>


e=mc^2 is just Pi in disguise RSS
Shoemaker II
User ID: 561459
11/29/2008 2:28 AM
e=mc^2 is just Pi in disguise
Quote

area formula of a circle : a = pr^2
Einstein BS : e = mc^2

Funny how these are so much alike, identical in basic structure…

Why? because light is not linear!! Light "streams" like water, or more specifically: like ****.

Yellow and blue make green - that is the facts o' the ring!! For you math persons: factoring.

Look at a spectrum.

Why do Jews circumcise the males? To show them the true nature of light, and how to understand it. Why else would they cut part of their dicks off?

Light is like a "hoop and stick", light moves in all directions, in a forward motion.

As the Leprechauns say: "It’s the pot of gold at the end of me rainbow"

pot of gold = ****

What morons run science in this day. You peoples need to THINK!!

BTW, in case you didn’t know, e=mc^2 was NOT needed to split the atom.

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 539828
11/29/2008 2:30 AM Re: e=mc^2 is just Pi in disguise Quote


Treasure Bound

User ID: 520207
11/29/2008 2:33 AM
Re: e=mc^2 is just Pi in disguise Quote


As the Leprechauns say: "It’s the pot of gold at the end of me rainbow"

pot of gold = ****

What morons run science in this day. You peoples need to THINK!!
Quoting: Shoemaker II
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...sage675236/pg1

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 561563
11/29/2008 8:30 AM Re: e=mc^2 is just Pi in disguise Quote

Also, kinetic energy ke = 1/2 x mv^2

All energy is equivalent, so
ke = e => m x 1/2v^2 = m x c^2
=> v = sqrt(2) x c = 1.414 x c

=> the velocity of matter is permanently equal to the velocity of two light beams travelling at right angles to each other.

Matter is trapped light!
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Old 12-07-2008, 10:29 PM   #24
idunno
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View Full Version : Is Mass Really Condensed Energy


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onychoJun17-06, 07:19 AM
A. Einstein contended that (E=mc2) energy was equal to mass X velocity of light squared.

Does is it not follow that M=e/c2 or that mass is really condensed energy?

If mass is truly energy, then what is it that we observe from our mind's point of reference?

Finally what is energy?


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pervectJun17-06, 01:27 PM
In physics, energy is the ability of a system to do work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy

Work is defined by force * distance (in an inertial frame)

If you consider particle / antiparticle reactions (say an electron and an anti-electron), you can see examples of how mass can be converted into energy. This does not mean, however, that the energy contained in a mass M is necessarily fully accessible to us. Generally, it is not accessible, unless we have access to a supply of antimatter of equal mass.

Anti-matter does not occur naturally (as far as we know) and has to be artifically produced. The amount of energy it takes to produce anti-matter is much more than the energy which it actually liberates.

As far as whether matter is "really" condensed energy, that's a bit philosophical. What experimental tests would convince you that it was? What experimental tests would convince you that it wasn't?

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FarsightJun17-06, 01:56 PM
onchyo, in simple terms:

Mass is a property of a thing. Imagine thing A is moving, and you want to slow it down. If it's massive then even if it's going slow, it has a lot of Mass, so you have to work real hard to slow it down.

Energy is also a property of a thing. Imagine thing B is moving, and you want to slow it down. If it ain't massive but it's going real fast, it has a lot of Kinetic Energy, so you have to work real hard to slow it down.

A and B have different properties, but these properties can sometimes look like one another. And they can be actually translated into one another for real. But I wouldn't say mass is condensed energy. Energy isn't a thing, it isn't something you can condense. It's just a property of a thing. It's like colour. It can't exist on its own. The thing exists. The motion exists. The energy does not. That's why it can't be created or destroyed. Because it doesn't exist in the first place.

What is energy? It's just a measure of how much change in motion the thing can achieve on another thing.


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pmb_phyJun19-06, 07:38 AM
A. Einstein contended that (E=mc2) energy was equal to mass X velocity of light squared.

Does is it not follow that M=e/c2 or that mass is really condensed energy?

If mass is truly energy, then what is it that we observe from our mind's point of reference?

Finally what is energy?E = mc2 is a relationship between the energy supplied to a closed system and the quantity of mass increase of the system due to the added energy. It is also the maximum amount of energy a system can transfer to other systems, e.g. like the amount of rest energy possesed by a pion. The pion can disintegrate into two particles, the sum of the energies of the two particles adding up to the rest energy of the pion. Mass is not "frrozen energy."

What is energy? Nobody knows. This is a complicated question which deserves a complete answer. Unfortunately the answer is too long to post here. For that reason I made a web page to address this question. Please see

http://www.geocities.com/physics_wor..._is_energy.htm

Note the comment by Feynman

It is important to realize that in physics today, we have no knowledge of what energy is. We do not have a picture that energy comes in little blobs of a definite amount. It is not that way. However, there are formulas for calculating some numerical quantity, and we add it all together it gives “28” - always the same number. It is an abstract thing in that it does not tell us the mechanism or the reasons for the various formulas.


Pete

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actionintegralJun19-06, 12:12 PM
I don't believe this question belongs in a relativity forum. "What is mass" and "What is energy" are questions which should be discussed in general physics.

After those discussions are held, we can then ask - "now how does relativity affect these concepts". Relativity does little to shed light on the nature of mass and energy.

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pmb_phyJun20-06, 03:09 PM
I don't believe this question belongs in a relativity forum. "What is mass" and "What is energy" are questions which should be discussed in general physics.

After those discussions are held, we can then ask - "now how does relativity affect these concepts". Relativity does little to shed light on the nature of mass and energy.
The OT asked a question about the relationship between mass and energy, i.e. E = mc2 which is a relationship derived using tghe principles of special relativity. Hence this forum is the right forum to post this question.

Pete

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actionintegralJun20-06, 03:26 PM
I know, but I wasn't trying to shut down the discussion. The big giant font
at the end of the question gave me the impression that the original poster was searching relativity for clues about the nature of energy. I was only pointing out that there was none to be found.

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gijeqkeijJun21-06, 05:51 PM
A. Einstein contended that (E=mc2) energy was equal to mass X velocity of light squared.

Does is it not follow that M=e/c2 or that mass is really condensed energy?

If mass is truly energy, then what is it that we observe from our mind's point of reference?

Finally what is energy?

For me, energy makes sense only if you can define an energy invariant conservation law. Better, the energy conservation law is what define energy.
gijeqkeij

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pmb_phyJun23-06, 04:53 PM
I know, but I wasn't trying to shut down the discussion. The big giant font
at the end of the question gave me the impression that the original poster was searching relativity for clues about the nature of energy. I was only pointing out that there was none to be found.I would say that there are clues in that there are properties of energy, but energy itself is quite undefinable as far as we know.

Pete

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actionintegralJun23-06, 08:55 PM
Ditto for mass!

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pmb_phyJun24-06, 07:48 AM
Ditto for mass!Why? Mass is a well defined quantity.

Pete

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gijeqkeijJun24-06, 04:13 PM
Why? Mass is a well defined quantity.

Pete

How mass can be a well defined quantity in GR if there is not a mass conservation law?
gijeqkeij

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pmb_phyJun24-06, 04:17 PM
How mass can be a well defined quantity in GR if there is not a mass conservation law?
gijeqkeijWho says that there is no mass conservation law?? he conservation law for mass is identical to the conservation law of energy, i.e. Tuv;u = 0.

Pete

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gijeqkeijJun24-06, 04:59 PM
Who says that there is no mass conservation law?? he conservation law for mass is identical to the conservation law of energy, i.e. Tuv;u = 0.

Pete

Pete, first of all we are now talking of energy and not only mass anymore; second Tuv;u = 0 is not a proper conservation law (that the reason for the energy pseudo-tensor and all the relevant discussion).

gijeqkeij

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pmb_phyJun24-06, 05:20 PM
Pete, first of all we are now talking of energy and not only mass anymore; ....Huh? This is a thread on mass is it not? In anycase I was addressing you're assertion that mass can't be defined.
second Tuv;u = 0 is not a proper conservation law (that the reason for the energy pseudo-tensor and all the relevant discussion).I don't see how you arrived at this assumption. Please clarify as to how you arrived at this assertion.

The equation I posted is standard GR stuff. Its actually called the conservation of energy-momentum (i.e. energy is conserved and momentum is conserved). Its called the Law of local energy-momentum conservation. See MTW page 386 if you have that text.

Thanks

Pete

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GarthJun24-06, 05:58 PM
The equation I posted is standard GR stuff. Its actually called the conservation of energy-momentum (i.e. energy is conserved and momentum is conserved). Its called the Law of local energy-momentum conservation. See MTW page 386 if you have that text.
Actually Pete Tuv;u = 0, the conservation of energy-momentum does not generally imply the conservation of energy and the conservation of momentum; those are frame dependent concepts and in a freely falling frame the separate total energy and momentum of another object, freely falling in a different part of the gravitational field will not themselves individually appear conserved.

The (-+++) nature of the metric means that the 3-momentum component is vector subtracted from the total energy to obtain the 4-momentum or energy-momentum of the object, and it is this resultant, which is the rest mass, that is conserved in GR.

This has the result that rulers remain of fixed length and clocks remain regular.

Garth

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gijeqkeijJun25-06, 05:36 AM
Huh? This is a thread on mass is it not? In anycase I was addressing you're assertion that mass can't be defined.
I don't see how you arrived at this assumption. Please clarify as to how you arrived at this assertion.

Probably I was unclear: in GR you can only speak of energy conservation and not mass conservation...and also energy conservation in my opinion is not well defined.

The equation I posted is standard GR stuff. Its actually called the conservation of energy-momentum (i.e. energy is conserved and momentum is conserved). Its called the Law of local energy-momentum conservation. See MTW page 386 if you have that text.

Yes I do have MTW; pls check page 466ff: in GR you can't localize the energy of gravitational fields... that means in general: no proper energy conservation law available and without a proper energy conservation law you can't define energy properly.

gijeqkeij

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pmb_phyJun25-06, 06:47 AM
Probably I was unclear: in GR you can only speak of energy conservation and not mass conservation...Since relativity considers energy and mass to be the same thing then I ask you on what do you base this assertion?

Yes I do have MTW; pls check page 466ff: in GR you can't localize the energy of gravitational fields... that means in general: no proper energy conservation law available and without a proper energy conservation law you can't define energy properly.That is the energy of the gravitational field. I was speaking about the energy/mass of matter.

In any case I was responding to your comment
How mass can be a well defined quantity in GR if there is not a mass conservation law?
When I posted my assertion that mass is a well defined quantity I had in mind the mass of a particle (i.e. inertial mass), not a general definition of mass which encompasses all of GR (i.e. active and passive gravitational mass.

In any case I now understand what you meant when you said that mass is not conserved and I therefore have no more questions to ask you so I will bow out here so that this thread doesn't drone on about mass/energy conservation. Seems like many threads get sidetracked with conversations like this and end up donminating a thread. I don't wish to contribute to that in any threads, hence my bowing out. Thanks.

Garth - If you recall, we discussed your comments in the past ad nauseum and I understand that you have a different opinion on that point so I see no reason to go over the same discusssion again. Thanks.

Pete

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gijeqkeijJun25-06, 07:00 AM
Since relativity considers energy and mass to be the same thing then I ask you on what do you base this assertion?
That is the energy of the gravitational field. I was speaking about the energy/mass of matter. Otherwise WTW would be contradictiing themselves.

Thanks

Pete

Probably we say the same things in different words. Let me rephrase: you can't actually distinguish in GR between mass, energy, energy of gravitational fields. That why you can't have in GR a proper energy conservation law... so mass and energy can't be well defined in GR.
gijeqkeij

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actionintegralJun26-06, 01:43 PM
I would be interested in learning the definition of mass. Please post it.

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pmb_phyJun27-06, 04:59 AM
I would be interested in learning the definition of mass. Please post it.It depends on what you mean by "mass." There are several meanings to the term: inertial mass (aka relativistic mass), proper mass, active gravitational mass and passive gravitational mass.

Inertial mass - The quantity m such that mv is a conserved quantity in elastic collisions. m is a function of speed, i.e. m = m(v).

Proper mass - For a tardyon m0 = m(0). For a luxon m0 = 0.

Active gravitational mass - That which is the source of a gravitational field.

Passive Gravitational mass - That which a gravitational field acts on.

For a detailed definition please see

http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/mass_paper.pdf

Pete

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pervectJun27-06, 02:31 PM
I am basically with gijeqkeij and Garth on this issue, as long-time posters will probably be aware.

The way I describe mass in GR is not that there is no defintion, it is rather that there is no single definition. There are many different defintions of mass in GR, some of the more comon are

ADM mass, Bondi mass, and Komar mass. The first two are applicable in asymptotically flat space-times, and differ on how they handle energy in gravitational radiation. The last is applicable in any static space-time.

Other posters have talked briefly about other sorts of mass (such as Dixon mass), which I want to learn more about someday.

See

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive.../t-110905.html

for some past discussion.


If the space-time is neither static nor asymptotically flat, there is no general definition of mass in GR, just as there is no general definition of energy.

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pmb_phyJul2-06, 01:04 PM
Actually Pete Tuv;u = 0, the conservation of energy-momentum does not generally imply the conservation of energy and the conservation of momentum;I was speaking about conservation of energy, not momentum. One would never assume that a quantity such as momentum is a constant of motion when it is moving in a gravitational field. The law of conservation of momentum applies only to those particles on which no force is acting. I.e. in Newtonian gravity a particle falling in the Earth's gravitational field (as observed by someone sitting on its surface) will measure the energy to be constant and yet the momentum will constantly changing when in free-fall. However since this is a static field then the energy of such a falling particle will be zero.
..those are frame dependent concepts and in a freely falling frame the separate total energy and momentum of another object, freely falling in a different part of the gravitational field will not themselves individually appear conserved.
Actually its a geometric property when external 4-forces are zero. The equation div T = 0 is a geometric statement, i.e. independant of spacetime coordinates. It is easily found by calculating in a locally Lorentzian frame. So while its true that energy is frame dependant it is not true that the Law of conservation is frame dependant. Its sort of like measuring proper mass. It is measured when the particle is at rest in a locally Lorentzian field. If one is evaluating the energy from a freely-falling frame in a curved spacetime then the field will be time independant and such a field is non-conservative.

Its not as if the GR community calls this "local" energy-momentum conservation for nothing Garth. They state it that way for a reason.

The (-+++) nature of the metric means that the 3-momentum component is vector subtracted from the total energy to obtain the 4-momentum or energy-momentum of the object, and it is this resultant, which is the rest mass, that is conserved in GR.3-momentum is not vector subtracted from energy since one is a tensor of rank zero while the other is a tensor of rank one. The meaning of the equation you speak of (i.e. the T^0u_u = 0 equation) is a conservation equation which states that energy entering a small enclosed surface will equal the rate at which energy passes through the surface which is the rate at which energy decreases from external to the surface. Plus you can't add 4-vectors which are located at different events in spacetime. That is a violation of the rule for adding vectors. In any case, when the energy for a single particle in free-fall in a static g-field is calculated then the energy (E ~ P 0) it will be a constant of motion, i.e. conserved.

When one speaks of conservation laws one must take into account the specific example and see if it matches the condition postulated in the law. I.e. in that case "momentum" is rarely conserved since the law states that "The momentum of a free particle is conserved" and therefore you must take into account forces acting on a particle. Likewise the energy of a particle in a field is not constant unless the potential is time-independant, i.e. a conservative field.

Pete

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