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Old 11-24-2008, 01:25 PM   #1
Jacqui D
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Default Is our earth flat or round?

Do they really think the earth is flat?

Photos such as this one are deemed fakes by flat-earthers

By Brendan O'Neill


In the 21st Century, the term "flat-earther" is used to describe someone who is spectacularly - and seemingly wilfully - ignorant. But there is a group of people who claim they believe the planet really is flat. Are they really out there or is it all an elaborate prank?

Nasa is celebrating its 50th birthday with much fanfare and pictures of past glories. But in half a century of extraordinary images of space, one stands out.

WORLD VIEW
330 BC Aristotle provides evidence of spherical earth
240 BC Eratosthenes of Cyrene accurately calculates circumference of globe
8th Century AD work by Bede shows acceptance of sphere idea

On 24 December 1968, the crew of the Apollo 8 mission took a photo now known as Earthrise. To many, this beautiful blue sphere viewed from the moon's orbit is a perfect visual summary of why it is right to strive to go into space.

Not to everybody though. There are people who say they think this image is fake - part of a worldwide conspiracy by space agencies, governments and scientists.

Welcome to the world of the flat-earther.

Our attitude towards those who once upon a time believed in the flatness of the earth is apparent in a new Microsoft advert.
One rendition of what a flat earth might look like

Depicting an olden-days ship sailing on rough seas, presumably heading towards the "edge of the world", the advert is part of a $300m campaign aimed at rescuing the reputation of Windows Vista by comparing its critics to flat-earthers.

Satellite era

But are there any genuine flat-earthers left? Surely in our era of space exploration - where satellites take photos of our blue and clearly globular planet from space, and robots send back info about soil and water from Mars - no one can seriously still believe that the Earth is flat?

Circumnavigation is a case of travelling in a very broad circle across the surface of the Earth

James McIntyre
Flat-earther

Wrong.

Flat earth theory is still around. On the internet and in small meeting rooms in Britain and the US, flat earth believers get together to challenge the "conspiracy" that the Earth is round.

"People are definitely prejudiced against flat-earthers," says John Davis, a flat earth theorist based in Tennessee, reacting to the new Microsoft commercial.

"Many use the term 'flat-earther' as a term of abuse, and with connotations that imply blind faith, ignorance or even anti-intellectualism."

Mr Davis, a 25-year-old computer scientist originally from Canada, first became interested in flat earth theory after "coming across some literature from the Flat Earth Society a few years ago".

"I came to realise how much we take at face value," he says. "We humans seem to be pleased with just accepting what we are told, no matter how much it goes against our senses."

Mr Davis now believes "the Earth is flat and horizontally infinite - it stretches horizontally forever".

"And it is at least 9,000 kilometres deep", he adds.

James McIntyre, a British-based moderator of a Flat Earth Society discussion website, has a slightly different take. "The Earth is, more or less, a disc," he states. "Obviously it isn't perfectly flat thanks to geological phenomena like hills and valleys. It is around 24,900 miles in diameter."

Mr McIntyre, who describes himself as having been "raised a globularist in the British state school system", says the reactions of his friends and family to his new beliefs vary from "sheer incredulity to the conviction that it's all just an elaborate joke".

So how many flat-earthers are around today? Neither Mr Davis nor Mr McIntyre can say.

Disappearing ships

Mr McIntyre estimates "there are thousands", but "without a platform for communication, a head-count is almost impossible", he says. Mr Davis says he is currently creating an "online information repository" to help to bring together local Flat Earth communities into a "global community".

"If you will forgive my use of the term 'global'", he says.


And for the casual observer, it is hard to accept that all of this is not some bizarre 21st Century jape. After all, most schoolchildren know that ships can disappear over the horizon, that satellites orbit the earth and that if you head along the equator you will eventually come back on yourself.

What about all the photos from space that show, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the Earth is round? "The space agencies of the world are involved in an international conspiracy to dupe the public for vast profit," says Mr McIntyre.

John Davis also says "these photos are fake".

And what about the fact that no one has ever fallen off the edge of our supposedly disc-shaped world?

Mr McIntyre laughs. "This is perhaps one of the most commonly asked questions," he says. "A cursory examination of a flat earth map fairly well explains the reason - the North Pole is central, and Antarctica comprises the entire circumference of the Earth. Circumnavigation is a case of travelling in a very broad circle across the surface of the Earth."

Ultimate conspiracy

Mr Davis says that being a flat-earther doesn't have an impact on how one lives every day. "As a rule of thumb, we don't have any fears of aircraft or other modes of transportation," he says.

Christine Garwood, author of Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea, is not surprised that flat-earthers simply write off the evidence that our planet is globular.

"Flat earth theory is one of the ultimate conspiracy theories," she says.

"Naturally, flat earth believers think that the moon landings were faked, as were the photographs of earth from space."


Perhaps one of the most surprising things in Garwood's book is her revelation that flat earth theory is a relatively modern phenomenon.

Ms Garwood says it is an "historic fallacy" that everyone from ancient times to the Dark Ages believed the earth to be flat, and were only disabused of this "mad idea" once Christopher Columbus successfully sailed to America without "falling off the edge of the world".

In fact, people have known since at least the 4th century BC that the earth is round, and the pseudo-scientific conviction that we actually live on a disc didn't emerge until Victorian times.

Theories about the earth being flat really came to the fore in 19th Century England. With the rise and rise of scientific rationalism, which seemed to undermine Biblical authority, some Christian thinkers decided to launch an attack on established science.

Samuel Birley Rowbotham (1816-1884) assumed the pseudonym of "Parallax" and founded a new school of "Zetetic astronomy". He toured England arguing that the Earth was a stationary disc and the Sun was only 400 miles away.

In the 1870s, Christian polemicist John Hampden wrote numerous works about the Earth being flat, and described Isaac Newton as "in liquor or insane".

And the spirit of these attacks lives on to the present day. The flat-earth myth remains the outlandish king in the realm of the conspiracy theorist.

And while we all respect a degree of scepticism towards the authorities, says Ms Garwood, the flat-earthers show things can go too far.

"It is always good to question 'how we know what we know', but it is also good to have the ability to accept compelling evidence - such as the photographs of Earth from space."



-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for your comments. A selection appears below.

The closest geometric shape to describe the earth has got to be an oblate spheroid. Which roughly means a slightly flattened round thing. So the earth is both flat and round.
Nick L, Cirencester, UK

It's interesting actually, this isn't the first time I've heard of a conspiracy like this. It is of course scientifically impossible. How does a flat object manage to be dark and light at the same time? Its impossible surely. If you take a CD, try and make the same side both hot and cold, dark and light and all points in between. It can't be done, try and do the same to a ball and suddenly it is possible. Next they will be telling us that the sun circles earth.
Mike Nash, Birmingham, England

How do "flat-earthers" explain lunar eclipses?
Erin Walsh, Newtownards, Northern Ireland

There are two points to be made here. First, the modern flat earth society has not always insisted that the photographs from space were fakes. In the 1950s, after membership had dropped by two-thirds when the first pictures from the satellites were published, the die-hards came back with a hypothesis that the aerial view of the earth had been distorted by 'invisible and undetectable bodies' which refracted the light in such a way that it appeared spherical. It was only with the moon landings that they added the conspiracy theory that this had all taken place in the Nevada desert.

The second and more important point is that this article misrepresents the history of the theory, rejecting one extreme - the idea that everyone until Columbus believed the earth to be flat, which is patent nonsense; to replace it with an equally implausible extreme, the idea that virtually the whole of western Christendom was perfectly well aware that the earth was a sphere, with exceptions such as the atypical 'cranks' like Lactantius and Cosmas of Alexandria. It simply is not true that there were no flat earth beliefs among the educated classes, and certainly not true that it was all but dead by the Middle Ages.
Mark Tebbit, Reading

If the earth was flat as suggested by these "theorists", a plane flying from Santiago (Chile) to Sydney (Australia) would have to cross Mexico and California before reaching its destination. Having spent many hours on that route, I can assure the world that it doesn't. The world is not a flat disc. Period.
Alex Williams, London

The flat-earth theory of the planet being a disc can be proven false quite easily. Simply get a satellite photo of the South Pole showing Antarctica as one landmass surrounded by water.

Oh wait, they don't trust satellite photos. But they do trust aircraft. The reason planes fly routes in arcs is because this is the shortest and most efficient route on a curved sphere. Simply show that the distance/fuel consumption between two points in the Northern Hemisphere is roughly the same as between two points in the Southern Hemisphere.

For example, the distance between Rio de Janeiro and Cape Town is 3775 miles, and the distance from New York to London is 3470 miles. If the disc theory was correct, it would be something like 4x as far between the Southern Hemisphere cities, since you'd have to traverse the two points further from the center of the disc (ie the North Pole). Mr Davis can even fly the plane if he wants!

But, I forgot, logic has already failed these people. Why should this be any different?
Matt, NYC, US








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Old 11-24-2008, 01:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

Flat?

There are folks who think the world is flat still? h#### #### ##### !

Even at 40 thousand feet the curve is very visible.... no. I refuse to sit and waste words of people that are not living in dense rain forests with stone age tools for survival but still think the worlds flat...
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Old 11-24-2008, 02:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

I brought this up a week ago when people were talking about Hollow Earth Theory.

One recurring theme between Flat Earth Theorists, Hollow Earth Theorists, Global Conspiracy Theorists etc, etc is their unerring ability to think "do not take things we are told at face value, don't just accept what you are told if it goes against your senses".

Now its fair enough to think like that, and certainly in some areas you need to look deeper than you are told, but also in some areas what you are told is actual FACT with no agenda behind it.

But the trouble with the "do not take things at face value, do not automatically accept what you are told" mentality is that it can take over your mindset and suddenly you believe ANYTHING that opposes the mainstream view on ANY subject.

All it takes is for somebody to suggest that pics of the spherical Earth are faked (by PTB), and offer a bit of pseudo science as evidence of flat earth, and believers are born.

Basically gullible people with the right mindset.

I see no difference between Flat Earth, Hollow Earth and many other highly unlikely theories, then people say to me "you're negative and narrow minded". No, I don't think so.
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Old 11-24-2008, 03:26 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

I am afraid of this radicalism. But it is different to a hollow earth theory. Hollow earth makes sense while flat earth does not.

Even though I naturally find it hilarious anyone would be serious the earth is flat. I still want to take them seriously because I only care about sensible things so if they have reason to believe it then lets think about it and give them a chance.

First when you look at the moon and sun. Why is it round then? If the moon and sun is round there's a good chance planets are round. And it's unlikely that both moon and sun would be facing the right way if it was a flat disc.

From first hand experience this is sadly the only evidence I can offer and it is circumstantial.

I have not gone out of my way to know for sure. Let me think about it...
Lets say any photo can be faked although it's probably unlikely. Lets say all photo are unreliable.

I have never flown in a plane in a straight line so I can't say anything about that either.

I lack the means to prove it from first hand experience. The good thing is I am able to know that. Others don't know the difference between first hand experience and what is passed on to them from sources not fool proof.

It's safe to assume for me the world is round and hollow. I could be wrong. For now that's what the information is telling me.

From first hand experience that's all I can say about it.

Now I'm curious how to prove it to myself actually.
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Old 11-24-2008, 03:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

LOL yes of course it's flat. You don't walk in circles,do you? LOL
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Old 11-24-2008, 03:39 PM   #6
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I just realized something now that you say that.....It could be both and neither and one and the other.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:02 PM   #7
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Onto Hollow Earth Theory, would anybody out there like to give me an explanation of how a planet could actually form.....hollow! Every common sense thing I know tells me that it would not be possible for a forming spinning new planet to form hollow. It would just fill itself in as it span and cooled.

I'm not discounting the theory that the core may not be iron, as in popular theory, but the way I see it, the sphere that we stand on has to be solid. Whatever is in the core, I'd stick my neck out and say its not empty space.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:23 PM   #8
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Well, if we look at all other planets in the universe they're round.
It's a quite small chance we're flat lol
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:24 PM   #9
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The basic thing behind it being hollow is this.....

The lava exists heated by something, what heats it? An inside sun. A sun can't exist with an iron core or without space inside from the crust. How could lava stay hot forever without a heat source inside....

Last edited by Dean Plejaren; 11-24-2008 at 04:50 PM. Reason: left the word 'without' out
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:30 PM   #10
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The Earth may be round but our universe err multiverse is flat.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html


he shape of the universe is determined by a struggle between the momentum of expansion and the pull of gravity. The rate of expansion is expressed by the Hubble Constant, Ho, while the strength of gravity depends on the density and pressure of the matter in the universe. If the pressure of the matter is low, as is the case with most forms of matter we know of, then the fate of the universe is governed by the density. If the density of the universe is less than the "critical density" which is proportional to the square of the Hubble constant, then the universe will expand forever. If the density of the universe is greater than the "critical density", then gravity will eventually win and the universe will collapse back on itself, the so called "Big Crunch". However, the results of the WMAP mission and observations of distant supernova have suggested that the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating which implies the existence of a form of matter with a strong negative pressure, such as the cosmological constant. This strange form of matter is also sometimes referred to as the "dark energy". If dark energy in fact plays a significant role in the evolution of the universe, then in all likelihood the universe will continue to expand forever.




The density of the universe also determines its geometry. If the density of the universe exceeds the critical density, then the geometry of space is closed and positively curved like the surface of a sphere. This implies that initially parallel photon paths converge slowly, eventually cross, and return back to their starting point (if the universe lasts long enough). If the density of the universe is less than the critical density, then the geometry of space is open, negatively curved like the surface of a saddle. If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a sheet of paper. Thus, there is a direct link between the geometry of the universe and its fate.

The simplest version of the inflationary theory, an extension of the Big Bang theory, predicts that the density of the universe is very close to the critical density, and that the geometry of the universe is flat, like a sheet of paper. That is the result confirmed by the WMAP science.
Measurements from WMAP

The WMAP spacecraft can measure the basic parameters of the Big Bang theory including the geometry of the universe. If the universe were open, the brightest microwave background fluctuations (or "spots") would be about half a degree across. If the universe were flat, the spots would be about 1 degree across. While if the universe were closed, the brightest spots would be about 1.5 degrees across.

Recent measurements (c. 2001) by a number of ground-based and balloon-based experiments, including MAT/TOCO, Boomerang, Maxima, and DASI, have shown that the brightest spots are about 1 degree across. Thus the universe was known to be flat to within about 15% accuracy prior to the WMAP results. WMAP has confirmed this result with very high accuracy and precision. We now know that the universe is flat with only a 2% margin of error.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:33 PM   #11
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Wheres' the edge

WTF


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Old 11-24-2008, 04:46 PM   #12
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One more thing AJ has anyone witnessed a mass of energy evolve itself into a solid ball? Never. Anything that condenses does so from outside In. Mass does not start condensing from the center. It gathers from the outside. The last place it would ever condense is therefore the center. A sun could easily attract around itself during it's evolution a mass of energy that would then form into a planet.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Joe View Post
I brought this up a week ago when people were talking about Hollow Earth Theory.

One recurring theme between Flat Earth Theorists, Hollow Earth Theorists, Global Conspiracy Theorists etc, etc is their unerring ability to think "do not take things we are told at face value, don't just accept what you are told if it goes against your senses".

Now its fair enough to think like that, and certainly in some areas you need to look deeper than you are told, but also in some areas what you are told is actual FACT with no agenda behind it.

But the trouble with the "do not take things at face value, do not automatically accept what you are told" mentality is that it can take over your mindset and suddenly you believe ANYTHING that opposes the mainstream view on ANY subject.

All it takes is for somebody to suggest that pics of the spherical Earth are faked (by PTB), and offer a bit of pseudo science as evidence of flat earth, and believers are born.

Basically gullible people with the right mindset.

I see no difference between Flat Earth, Hollow Earth and many other highly unlikely theories, then people say to me "you're negative and narrow minded". No, I don't think so.
Well said, and reasoning that is very applicable to many other against-the-mainstream claims. I'll go one further and say that the flat/hollow Earthers have almost a disinformation/discreditation flavor about their work.
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren View Post
The basic thing behind it being hollow is this.....

The lava exists heated by something, what heats it? An inside sun. A sun can't exist with an iron core or without space inside from the crust. How could lava stay hot forever without a heat source inside....
The basic fact as I know it, and I'm waiting to be corrected here, is that it is pretty much impossible for a planet to form hollow.

You can theorise all you want about it must have an inner sun surrounded by space and how could the lava stay hot etc, but until we can see a way how the earth could have even formed hollow then there is no point even talking about inner suns etc.

Also, lava is hot as we know. If you follow the hollow earth theory, then you have...inner sun, empty space, earths crust. So, the lava which by the way is many thousands of degrees, must be within the earths crust right?

The inner sun would have to be very, very hot to heat the lava contained within the earths crust, this heat would have to radiate first of all through the empty space before even warming the crust, thus killing everything within the hollow earth space by incineration.

And lets face it, the ONLY reason people support hollow earth theory is to add some credence to fantasies of civilisations in the hollow earth.
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:18 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by 777 The Great Work View Post
Wheres' the edge

WTF

To be fair, where's the edge if the Universe is a sphere or cube? What is past the edge? Its all pretty mind boggling really.
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
The inner sun would have to be very, very hot to heat the lava contained within the earths crust, this heat would have to radiate first of all through the empty space before even warming the crust, thus killing everything within the hollow earth space by incineration.
Not if it's like the outside weather system where you have a delicate balance going on in which things flow and operate under. There could be areas within the crust heated and other areas not. Just like on the surface with the outside sun. The heat from the lava could simply be exactly like the ocean system where the temperature is kept over long periods from consistency.

The sun may not be that hot, but it's consistency and placement keeps life flowing in a delicate balance initiating the volcanic activity, and allowing other things within the earth to thrive to keep all this in balance.

Also, oceans temperatures rising in recent times. As well as the volcanic activity, could be attributed to the central sun solar flares.

Quote:
And lets face it, the ONLY reason people support hollow earth theory is to add some credence to fantasies of civilisations in the hollow earth.
They may not be just imaginative fantasy a lot of myth is often based on things factual at the core of it.
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren View Post
Not if it's like the outside weather system where you have a delicate balance going on in which things flow and operate under. There could be areas within the crust heated and other areas not. Just like on the surface with the outside sun. The heat from the lava could simply be exactly like the ocean system where the temperature is kept over long periods from consistency.

The sun may not be that hot, but it's consistency and placement keeps life flowing in a delicate balance initiating the volcanic activity, and allowing other things within the earth to thrive to keep all this in balance.

Also, oceans temperatures rising in recent times. As well as the volcanic activity, could be attributed to the central sun solar flares.



They may not be just imaginative fantasy a lot of myth is often based on things factual at the core of it.
So many basic scientific impossibilies and errors there that I can't even be bothered to shred them one by one.

Dean if you want to believe that there is a finely balanced ecosystem within the hollow planet which surrounds a tiny and not very hot sun, then go ahead.
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Old 11-24-2008, 08:27 PM   #18
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The Hollow Earth's Cubed Suns
by

Amitakh Stanford

(Republished from Nara Site)

4th February 2005

Some people have speculated that the Earth is hollow. The theory of a hollow Earth became more accepted among some occultists and others in the 19th and 20th centuries. The theory is well based because the Earth is in fact hollow. This is true even though it has not yet been proven via the so-called "scientific method".

There have been a few who knew that there are civilizations beneath the Earth's surface. These few have learned not through channelling or second-hand accounts - they have been there and they have been involved there. What follows is a first-hand account of some of the conditions in the inner Earth.

Indeed, the Earth is hollow. There is an inner shell that faces downward from a surface perspective, but upward from an inner-Earth perspective. In the inner sky there are four star-like objects that emit light for the inner Earth.

The locations of these inner "suns" appear to change radically depending on where on the surface of the inner Earth they are being observed, and there is the appearance that the inner "suns" are moving much more than they really are. This is because of Wanchenlu's illusion of "no-motion" that makes the inner surface dwellers believe that the inner surface of the Earth is stationary and the "suns" are the only things in motion. As above, so below. The Designer of the inner Earth sought to confuse its occupants like It sought to confuse those on the outer surface. See Shattering the Cube Parts 1 and 2.

The combined light from all the inner-Earth "suns" is much more subdued in comparison to the sun for the surface of the planet. However, they have one thing in common with the outer sun. They are all cubes that were set into motion at very fast speeds so they appear to be spheroid suns. They are external combustion engines just like the outer sun. Since the suns are cubed they are constructed entirely of 90-degree angles, which metaphysically speaking, facilitates strife, confrontation, confusion, restlessness, agitation and outright belligerence. This is by design.

The suns in the inner Earth were speeded up in 1980, just like the sun of the outer Earth was in 1983. All four burn hotter than they ever have, and it has caused drought and a heat wave on the inner-Earth's surface. The flora and the fauna have diminished considerably since the suns were speeded up. The heat from the inner Earth is also a factor in global warming on the outer surface.

In 1996 nearly all of the consciousnesses of the viable "civilian" humanoids were removed from the inner-Earth and re-located by the Light. This happened to most of the viable "civilian" True-Light beings in human bodies on the outer surface in 1999. This is one reason that today there are so many humans walking about like zombies - some of them are "shells" only. However, not all "zombies" are due to the explanation given above.

As you can see, things intensified on the inner surface before they did on the outer surface. The conditions in the inner Earth are not as complex as they are on the outer surface, and the removal and relocation of consciousnesses was accomplished with less resistance; there was less confusion as the majority of the people were more spiritually attuned when compared to the majority of those on the outer surface.

Before 1980, the climate of the inner Earth was predominately temperate to sub-tropical, although it could get slightly warmer or cooler in some places. Many of the climatic conditions of the inner Earth were similar to those found on the outer surface. Now, things have changed. The surface and the air are hotter and are rapidly getting unbearable. This is why some of the inner-Earth beings are frantically digging their way to the outer surface of the Earth. Some of the inner-Earth people are aware of the outer surface of the Earth and others are not.

On the inner surface is found contoured land, with hills, mountains, valleys and even rivers. The inner Earth still supports biological life, which used to flourish down there. There remains varied vegetation including orchards, farms and wild growth although the quality of life has since deteriorated.

The animals in the inner Earth include some species that bear striking resemblance to those on the surface, and others that are distinctly unique to the inner Earth. Among these mammals are hairy, elephant-like creatures with huge upswept tusks that are known on the surface as mammoths. They also have huge python-like snakes that are very thick yet fairly short in length. Not too long ago, the inner-Earth surface was thriving with biological life, but today it is in a desperate state. This is mainly because the "envelope" in which the inner Earth is contained is relatively smaller than the outer Earth's "envelope" and the conditions are far more precarious and readily affected by drastic changes than that of the outer surface.

Some of the individual animals of the inner Earth are humanoids who are trapped in animal bodies. This nefarious work is carried out by evil aliens as a punishment on the humanoids. The aliens also use energy fields to "hang" their victims outstretched on what appear to be invisible walls, leaving them suspended in "air". These victims can only be released when the energy fields are disconnected.

There are several races of people that inhabit the inner Earth. Some are more spiritual and peace loving, while others are more technologically inclined and more ambitious. Most of the races of the inner Earth have either dark complexions about the hue of fair East Indians with sharp features or they have fairer complexions with hues closer to those of fair Mediterranean people. Most of the inhabitants are slim and reasonably tall.

Unfortunately, slavery also plagues them - it has been imposed upon them by the conquering, evil aliens. In particular, there is a very evil group of aliens that call themselves something that sounds like "Vaag-jiles". The inner-Earth beings are being hassled by hostile aliens (especially the Vaag-jiles) who have enslaved the inner-Earth's population, especially the children.

The Vaag-jiles have been kidnapping children from peace-loving races and forcing them to work as slaves, and for other purposes, including consuming them as gourmet food and using them for ceremonial sacrifices. Most of the Vaag-jiles are quite tall with very dark complexions and they generally inhabit the valley areas of the inner Earth. Vaag-jiles are primarily a matriarchal society and females play a very active role in their conquests. Because Vaag-jiles interfere with outer surface affairs, they live closer to the outer surface than many of the inner-Earth inhabitants.

Vaag-jiles have technology to visit the surface and have done so on many occasions. They have been spotted many times by indigenous people in the Pacific Northwest of America, especially by members of Kwakiutl tribes, who have instilled the Vaag-jiles into their folklore and artefacts and call them "Tsonoqua". The Vaag-jiles eat human children from both the inner Earth and the outer surface and have exploited the Kwakiutls and other races on the outer surface. At present, some Kwakiutl members are using Tsonoqua to assist them in their dark arts. Little do most of them suspect that things have changed and soon they will pay a high price for their dark activities, especially those in league with the Tsonoqua.

Certain of the Kwakiutl people and certain channellers are often the ones who give out "channelled" material from the Vaag-jiles. Some of Vaag-jiles and other aliens as well have tricked the Kwakiutls and the channellers by pretending to be their ancestors, Ascended Masters or some alien beings here to assist the planet. These beings have no interest in assisting earthlings - they serve their own nefarious interests. Many Kwakiutl people have been kidnapped and taken to the inner Earth by Vaag-jiles.

Other than alien technology such as that used by the Vaag-jiles and other military types of aliens for travelling between the inner and outer surfaces of the Earth, there exists a large, rotating, "mobile" portal or aperture that is now near the North Pole. There are other smaller portals in Tibet, Africa, China, Australia, Cuba, Scotland, Ireland, Finland etc. (Please note that these portals are NOT to be confused with the inter-dimensional portals that exist around the globe). From time to time there have been flora and fauna species that have migrated or floated to the outer surface and beaches from the inner Earth.

Today, the portals rarely open due to various changes in the Earth's structure over time. In the distant past, migration of all types of biological life, including people and animals have occurred to and from the inner Earth.

Nowadays, these portals do not open very often and the inner-Earth people do not live too close to the portals, but a lot of animals and plants do. From time-to-time surface dwellers have stumbled across portals, as have inner-Earth inhabitants. The openings of the portals depend upon the rotation of the planet and the rotation of the portals. When certain things align, a portal will open for a short while. There have been cases when a portal opens to an icy region and suddenly closes, leaving people or animals from the inner Earth stranded and they freeze to death. Some of these have been discovered by modern day explorers and the discoveries are inexplicable but for the knowledge that the inner-Earth beings were trapped in the ice when a portal closed.

In some of the villages of the inner Earth their social structures have a single person in charge. The leader is like a village head who is usually a person who is highly respected and honoured. The village head is also a spiritual figurehead.

Another part of the social structure of the villages involves people who are in charge of technological advancements. In this quarter of the inner Earth there are laboratories where experiments are being conducted and other tests are being carried out. These groups of people appear to be more advanced technologically than surface dwellers are, even though they are not involved in nuclear technology. However, some of the villages on the inner-Earth are not so advanced as others.

A few outer-surface people regularly visit the inner Earth. These people know how to enter the inner Earth. Haidakhan Babaji, who is also an Attas, was one such regular visitor who went down for various purposes. He and other Attas have gone down there many times to assist the inner-Earth beings. The Attas enter through a different method than the portals described earlier.

Some of the inner-Earth beings are now severely affected by the deterioration of things on the planet and are taking very drastic steps. They are so exhausted and affected by the conditions around them that some of them now resemble barren, walking trees. They are thirsty, hungry and haggard and seemingly without hope as their world is severely affected. In desperation, they are now furiously digging and drilling their way through the Earth's core to the surface. See BEN-DA-KO - What's More!

Alien wars on the surface are already affecting things in the inner Earth. As I said in BEN-DA-KO - What's More!, the Reptilians would launch into open battles with the Vulturites that would be fought in the sky and seas before April 2005. These battles are now raging and the effects have been seen in Queensland and Victoria, Australia. When the battles are occurring, there often appear huge, spreading bolts of energy that seem to be lightning without any accompanying thunder or storm. It used to be that the aliens would cover up these battles by simulating thunderstorms, but now that the Four Elements have been released, it is not so easy for the aliens to generate storms on demand.

Sometimes the aliens use invisibility technology so their crafts cannot be seen under normal circumstances. When battles take place under the "cloak" of invisibility, one can still hear a huge roaring sound that sometimes is reported by people to be tremors and earthquakes.

A few days ago, there were two huge battles in the Australian skies. In the past, alien battles were generally contained as they were primarily for posturing purposes. Now that the BEN-DA-KO is in full swing, the two major Anunnaki groups - Reptilians and Vulturites - are fighting for supremacy of the planet. The aliens are becoming more and more reckless and "dirty" in their combat manoeuvres.

One battle was so reckless that a craft from the Light Rescuers had to intervene before the battle seriously affected many innocent parties. Another alien battle that occurred in Melbourne a few days ago between the Reptilians/Greys and the Vulturites was so intense that the battle sounds could be heard for 100 kilometres. Some people described it as a thunderous booming sound; others thought it was an earthquake. The authorities have not yet come up with a satisfactory explanation for the sudden, huge, explosive sound. However, a commonly used cover story when these occur has been that a military plane accidentally broke the sound barrier. Of course, this story is wearing very thin. When sounds as violent as these reverberate into the inner Earth, they have very devastating effects on life down there. This has occurred several times in the inner Earth before. The space battles will intensify. This is only the beginning. Their side effects are tremendously harmful to the inner-Earth beings, not to mention what they do to the outer surface beings.

As many of you may have already noticed, weather anomalies are occurring throughout the world since the release of the Four Elements. These have included windless cyclonic-like rainstorms that lasted nine days in Far North Queensland. The locals were amazed at witnessing windless, continuing, heavy rainstorms. Strong winds almost always accompany heavy rains in this part of the world. Fire fighters in South Australia have recently commented upon the unusual speed, spread and other odd behaviour of the last bush fire. They noted that they have never seen fire behave as it did in the recent Adelaide bush fires.

Yesterday, there were unprecedented, severe flash floods in the city of Melbourne and cold temperatures bringing in an unheard of snowfall in summer at Falls Creek, Victoria. Towns in the U.S.A. have been flooded by rivers that froze before they could retreat. Sea mist coated houses on the New England coast then froze instantly, turning the residences into literal icehouses.

Parts of Antarctica have reported very warm 15 degree Celsius temperatures. Ice melts very rapidly at 15 degrees. Due to an emergency, a Russian icebreaker has been dispatched from Vladivostok to rescue and re-supply the American McMurdo Base on the Ross Ice Shelf of Antarctica. This confirms the explosions I reported "seeing" under the shelf in Final Reflections #15, which was published on 4th January 2005. All this shows that the Ross Ice Shelf is unstable and quickly disappearing. These are but a few of many weather anomalies that have covered the globe recently.

The inner and outer Earth are being simultaneously affected by the Clearing Process. However, many have been misguided about what is occurring and think that the Clearing Process is a means for re-starting anew on the physical Earth or that it is for ascension of the Earth to another dimension. In fact, the whole creation controlled by the Shadows will be dismantled totally to free all the trapped True-Light beings.

All viable True-Light beings of all classes of Creation, including mineral, vegetable, animal, human, galactic etc. will soon be returning to the True Creation of True Light, Love, Beauty, Peace and Harmony.

© 2005 Dr. Amitakh Stanford & AHSAF
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:10 PM   #19
Orion11
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

flat? lol, definitely not.

hollow?......... signs point to yes.
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:39 PM   #20
777 The Great Work
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Joe View Post
To be fair, where's the edge if the Universe is a sphere or cube? What is past the edge? Its all pretty mind boggling really.
Some times we forget that all of this is inside of us and not outside.They are all concepts and ideas that are shaped by whatever we imagine.The imagination is infinite.

I'm pretty sure if there wasn't a hollow earth,there is one now because we imagine it.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:52 AM   #21
Dean Plejaren
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

I wish I could see Average Joes face when he reads the article posted by Jacqui D.

I like to stay more with what we can know for certain and that article is going out there on a limb it may be someones active imagination working overtime or more dis-information. Something tells me that article is not reliable.
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Old 11-25-2008, 01:24 AM   #22
unlimited mind
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

what if the definition of FLAT means LINEAR? if that were the case, then there wouldn't be an argument
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Old 11-25-2008, 09:16 AM   #23
Average Joe
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

Wrong thread.

Last edited by Average Joe; 11-25-2008 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 11-25-2008, 10:59 AM   #24
Swanny
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

Well I think it's a round solid lump
But some people actually think it's square
I was looking to find out if Glastonbury was one of the four corners of the earth and found this site http://pw1.netcom.com/~rogermw/square_earth.html
They seem to be evil religious types

Quote:
Frequently Asked Questions

"Can I believe in the round Earth and still get into heaven?"
No. As you know, if you do not accept every word in the bible as literally true, you are not really accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and are doomed to burn in Hell for all eternity. God won't let any half-assed believers into heaven.

"What about all those pictures from space, showing that the Earth is round?"


Just more proof that Hollywood is in league with the devil.

"How come no airline pilots have ever reported seeing the edges of the Earth?"


Airline pilots are also in league with the devil.




Anyone writing rubbish like this would go to hell if there was such a place
Some poor idiots are stupid enough to believe this cr@p, even worst others must be telling their kids this is how it is.



Quote:
EARTH SQUARE!

Got a problem with any of this? Are you an unbelieving heathen who believes the world has round edges or — God help you — might even be spherical? Then contact me at: rogermw@ix.netcom.com and I will pray for the redemption of your obviously misguided and hell-bound soul.
What a twat

Last edited by Swanny; 11-25-2008 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:15 PM   #25
Rareheart
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

Quote:
I'm pretty sure if there wasn't a hollow earth,there is one now because we imagine it.
When a critical mass of us believe in something...so shall it be.

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