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Old 09-20-2008, 12:02 AM   #1
historycircus
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Default Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

I have some thoughts on the economy that I would love to get some responses to:

First: Capitalism (and I'm using a narrow, economic definition: a market system subject to the laws of supply and demand) was born out of colonialism. The death knell of fuedalistic mercantilism was the "discovery" of two continents; one filled with gold, the other with abundant naval resources, and both with potential sources of labor. Capitalism was born through the physical exapansion of nations and resource exploitation.

Second: The very expansion that gave rise to the market systems now practiced globally is required to sustain this particular economic system. Capitalism is unsustainable without continued growth. The economist Keynes understood this very well, and his views drove the expansion of global Capitalism in the last half of the 20th century - despite the weakness of Keynesian economics exposed by the abusrdities of "Regeanomics" in the 1980s. "Rising tides lift all boats" thinking has limped along regardless - for whatever reason (insert illuminati theories here if you wish) - and expansion still means the acquisition of more resources, more territory, etc. What do most economists, politicians, and CEOs agree will spark most of the wars in the 21st Century? Natural resources - primarily fossil fuels and arable land. Capitalism does not necessarily mandate conquest, but that is how it came to be, how it exists today, and is predicted by most involved to continue.

Third: If we were to wake up tomorrow, and all the mechanisms of Capitalism were forever gone, would that really be a bad thing? So what if the dollar collapses? So what if the power goes out and grocery stores run out of food? Such a chaotic event would certainly lead to immediate wide-spread death and destruction on the planet, but is that really any worse than the orderly, well planned death and destruction we have today? The "economic collapse" as spoken of in the mainstream and alternative media is not deserving of the panic it commands.

Just some thoughts - let me know what you think.
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:03 PM   #2
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Third: If we were to wake up tomorrow, and all the mechanisms of Capitalism were forever gone, would that really be a bad thing? So what if the dollar collapses? So what if the power goes out and grocery stores run out of food? Such a chaotic event would certainly lead to immediate wide-spread death and destruction on the planet, but is that really any worse than the orderly, well planned death and destruction we have today? The "economic collapse" as spoken of in the mainstream and alternative media is not deserving of the panic it commands.

Just some thoughts - let me know what you think.
Well said, though I note few responses to your succint analysis. The last time we were so close to collapse, FDR stepped in, created some safety nets for the people and got the US involved in a war, which is what really got the economy back up and running - albeit after it killed about 50 million people. Prior to all that, revolution was in the air, their were labor strikes, and an awakened and angry public. FDR convinced the world that capitalism could be fixed. I hope now, we can at least see that a system based on profit is inherently unsustainable and brutal, one which cannot and should not be 'fixed.'
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:13 PM   #3
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That is the kicker about FDR, not only did he convince them that it could be fixed, he side-stepped others who were asking whether or not it should be fixed. There was actually a pretty healthy debate about that in the 1930s, and some communinst party members were actually elected to governerships and other positions - believe it or not, primarily in the West. It was an opportunity lost, and does seem to fit with claims about FDR's involvement with a NWO/illuminati/world banking shadow group.

What is sad is that when these fundamental questions about Capitalism are raised in mainstream arenas, the timeless insult of "communist" gets flung - even in the so-called "left-wing media."

Thanks for the reply, I was getting lonly.
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:20 PM   #4
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What is sad is that when these fundamental questions about Capitalism are raised in mainstream arenas, the timeless insult of "communist" gets flung - even in the so-called "left-wing media."

Thanks for the reply, I was getting lonly.
Thanks for the post, as I was getting lonely. Stumbled upon this article by a guy named Richard Moore. Don't know who he is really, but he often writes things of relevance and the below ties in well with what you and I (presumably alone!) are discussing (and how could FDR be anything BUT a member of the illuminati!):

We are living in 'interesting times'


I mean 'interesting times' in the sense of the traditional Chinese curse – may you live in interesting times. Thus one might say, the sacking of Rome was interesting, or the Nazi era in Germany was interesting. These were times when major changes were afoot – but not times one would necessarily choose to live through oneself. We today, however, have no choice. The whole world is passing through 'interesting times', and the changes afoot are profound.


Consider for example the recent conflict in Georgia, and the sudden polarization that has arisen between Washington and Moscow. The Western mainstream media has been presenting those events in a very distorted, propagandistic way, so it's not obvious on the surface what really happened in Georgia, what is the meaning of Russia's response, and what is the meaning of Washington's response to Russia's response.


The first thing to realize is that everything that is happening around Georgia has been planned out well in advance by the usual suspects in Washington. The events have not in any sense been caused by tensions in the Caucus, rather those tensions have provided a convenient venue for Washington to pursue its grand designs. Washington armed and trained the Georgian forces, and in the weeks prior to Georgia's attack on South Ossetia, US & Georgian forces engaged in joint military exercises. This has been a 'psy-op' – an incident arranged by the US in an attempt to demonize and isolate Russia.
The second thing to realize is that Russia has no interest whatsoever in conflict. By this I don't mean 'Russia is good', but rather 'Russia is sensible'. The conflicts now and to come are entirely the creation of US/UK/EU elites, in their pursuit of global domination. The Georgian attack on South Ossetia was as if Serbia were to attack the capital of Kosovo – and you can imagine the violence of the US/NATO retaliation against Serbia if that were to happen. The Russian response, by contrast, was not at all disproportionate.
The third thing to realize – and this is well known in both Washington and Moscow – is that the US has been preparing for many years to carry out a nuclear first-strike against Russia. That's what Reagan's 'Star Wars' was about, and the thread continues to space-based lasers, new kinds of tactical nukes, US bases surrounding Russia and China, radar stations in the Czech Republic, and the missiles in Poland.
The fourth thing to realize is the reason why this first strike is critical to US/EU elite interests. Without it, the overwhelming balance of global power will shift to Eurasia, to Russia and China. Eurasia is growing rapidly economically and structurally, while the US & EU are in terminal economic decline – and these trends are not going to change without decisive military intervention.


The US has always been very clever about the wars it's gotten into, always managing to blame its own aggression and conquest on the victim. Pearl Harbor is the most famous example – the Day of Infamy. We now know that President Roosevelt schemed systematically to provoke the Japanese to the point where they had no choice but to respond militarily. We know that the Japanese codes had been broken, the lookouts sent home, and Pearl Harbor left intentionally undefended. Roosevelt knew exactly when the attack was going to happen, and sent the strategically important aircraft carriers out to sea and safety. Those left in the harbor were sacrificed as so many pawns in an anti-Japanese psy-op so that America could enter the war as 'the good guy', 'the offended party'. Infamy indeed.


The US is now pursuing that same basic script with Russia. The Georgian incident was merely the opening salvo. The plan is to poke the Russian Bear again and again, each time forcing it to roar and swipe with its military claws. Each time it swipes, that will be another 'proof' of Russian aggressiveness. The radar and missile installations are pokes, and other pokes could be delivered by admitting the Ukraine to NATO or by imposing a blockade on Iran. If the US tries to rebuild Georgia's military, that is a poke Russia has already said it would swipe at.
These 'pokes' would be like Russia installing nuclear missiles in Cuba or Mexico, and one can understand why Washington could not tolerate that, and would take the installations out with so-called 'precision' bombing raids – for justifiable defensive reasons. Similarly, Russia is likely to take out the missiles in Poland, just before they are scheduled to be operational. Except in this case Russia will be accused by the West of carrying out an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation that had 'done nothing wrong'. All hail the power of spin.


This game of 'poke and swipe' is entirely under the control of Washington. They can pace the pokes, and their severity, depending on how far the Pentagon has progressed with its first-strike weapons systems. When the systems are all go, the US can deliver a big poke, the kind that might cause Russia to sink one of the Pentagon's big carriers. Then with a cry of "Russia started it", the first strike would be launched – indeed the stealth B1's would probably be airborne before the carrier even gets hit.


I'm not saying nuclear war is absolutely inevitable, but it is more likely in the near future than it ever was during the Cold War. In those days the US was content to isolate Russia, so that US and its 'allies' could have a free hand exploiting the so-called 'Free World'. Mutual assured destruction worked fine for that era. But now the US has strong reasons to want to actually destroy Russia, and is clearly pursuing that agenda militarily, diplomatically, and with psy-ops. This new era of polarization, created by Washington and threatening armageddon, is one of the profound changes now afoot in our world.


There's not room here to go into similar detail with each of the other profound changes, so I'll summarize some of them for now:


• The current 'economic slump', or 'credit crisis', is not a cyclic phenomenon, as they're trying to make us believe. Rather these things are the beginning of profound, historic, economic shifts. We will not return again to 'business as usual'; things are going get much worse for us in the West economically.
For one thing, we are seeing the mantle of capitalist hegemony moving from the US & Europe to China. Similarly, beginning in the late 1800s, the mantle passed from Imperial Britain to America. Earlier it passed from the Dutch Provinces to an emerging British Empire, and before that from the Genoese banking network to the Dutch Provinces. That's the nature of capitalism: each round of capital accumulation ends up unintentionally financing a successor hegemonic power.
At the same time, capitalism as-a-whole is running up against global limits it has never had to deal with before. Obviously growth cannot continue forever on a finite planet with finite resources, and we are now at the point where the unstoppable force is colliding with the immovable object.


• US and EU elites are absolutely committed to creating a centralized EU government, with all semblance of sovereignty removed from national governments, and with no democratic accountability. The European Commission, which wields all the power in Brussels, is not elected, and it takes its orders from financial elites. There are two major objectives behind this drive for centralization.
The first objective is to impose neoliberal policies on all of Europe – total privatization, low corporate taxes, deregulation of corporate abuses, drastic reductions in public services and welfare payments, etc. While the very rich will continue to get richer, the general standard of living in the EU will be declining down toward third-world levels. As usual, the future can be seen first in the USA, whose cities are filled with the homeless and with crime, and where something like 40% of the population lacks adequate access to health care. This is the response of Western elites to the economic shifts that are underway globally – pass the suffering on to the general population.
The second objective is to turn the EU into an imperialist military power, most likely involving conscription, so that EU elites can play a more active role in the geopolitical games that will be unfolding – assuming armageddon is somehow avoided. Already Ireland has given up its traditional neutrality, with its hosting of US military and rendition flights, and its participation in imperialist occupation operations, euphemistically called 'peacekeeping missions'.


The people of Ireland are to be congratulated for their wisdom in voting No to the Lisbon Treaty, but we need to be prepared for the same wolf to return in different clothing. He was rebuffed in his Constitutional garb and his Lisbon garb, but he'll be back more determined than ever, huffing and puffing and threatening to blow our houses down if we don't let him in. The Irish government is loyal not to us but to Brussels, so they'll be doing all they can to sneak the wolf in the back door.
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

A little capitalism doesn't hurt.

Its just when it gets out of the marketplace and affects infrastructure that we run into problems.

Very insightful post though and it leads me to get a bit of an epiphany on some other issues.Thought provoking.

Thanks for the conjure.
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:35 PM   #6
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Excellent article, and thank you for posting.

I heard Condy Rice's spiel the other day on NPR, where she said Russia was on a path to "self imposed isolation and international irrelevance." Puhleeez . . .

Russia controls one of the largest natural gas reserves on the planet at a time when fossil fuel use has YET to reach its peak. Putin could moon the United States delegate on the floor of the UN, and still command more "relevance" than say, France or Spain in the world. The same could be said for China, with its manufacturing and banking explosion. Both China and Russia don't really have to respond to any criticism from the West - they don't have to. That fits with what the author said about war provoked by the west.

What are your thoughts on Benjamin Fulford, and his views of the east-west economic dichotomy that has emerged since the fall of the Berlin Wall?
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:52 PM   #7
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It seems to me that the most life saving humanity centric event possible, in this moment, would be for the US fiscal system to be abandoned or collapsed, through either chaos or orchestration (which may be the same thing).

I say this because it might reduce the insanity of war in many forms, such as direct physical conflict and the more subtle economic hitman type conflicts, which lead to the same ends, human suffering.

This is why the Ron Paul campaign was an interesting curiosity for me to ponder, as, to remove the IRS and the Federal Reserve, his stated goals, was effectively to remove most of the government itself, leading towards PEACE, similar to the storyline in the fabulous book Cra$hmaker.

Lease Peace

~ namaste ~

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Old 09-20-2008, 05:11 PM   #8
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It seems to me that the most life saving humanity centric event possible, in this moment, would be for the US fiscal system to be abandoned or collapsed, through either chaos or orchestration (which may be the same thing).

I say this because it might reduce the insanity of war in many forms, such as direct physical conflict and the more subtle economic hitman type conflicts, which lead to the same ends, human suffering.

This is why the Ron Paul campaign was an interesting curiosity for me to ponder, as, to remove the IRS and the Federal Reserve, his stated goals, was effectively to remove most of the government itself, leading towards PEACE, similar to the storyline in the fabulous book Cra$hmaker.

Lease Peace

~ namaste ~
I have always loved Ron Paul and was exceptionally irritated that he was dismissed out of hand by the "controlled" media. For this nation to get back on its financial feet it indeed needs to get rid of the IRS and those bansters, the Federal Reserve.
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Old 09-20-2008, 05:23 PM   #9
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It seems to me that the most life saving humanity centric event possible, in this moment, would be for the US fiscal system to be abandoned or collapsed, through either chaos or orchestration (which may be the same thing).

I say this because it might reduce the insanity of war in many forms, such as direct physical conflict and the more subtle economic hitman type conflicts, which lead to the same ends, human suffering.


~ namaste ~
Absolutely agree - The only social economic system consistent with human rights is unrestricted, unregulated, laissez-faire - with a separation of state (including any 'shadow government!) and economics. It will only be after the demise (manufactured, chaos, or not) of Capitalism that a new system will form. This is not a process that can be spelled out, it must be literally a conceptual leap – in other words starting off on a different level of thinking - creatively. In such a system the state must have its power strictly limited, it will have to be designed in such a way as to protect the rights (life, liberty, property etc) of its citizens.

greetings
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Old 09-20-2008, 06:47 PM   #10
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Wow,

This thread brings me comfort as we civilly dialog and present.
Quick, we need an instigator to get it off track and heated!

My deep concern is with orchestration, yet it remains my great hope, in glorious paradox.

I think we have a chaotic universe and economic microcosm, whereby the Knights feel they can direct and maneuver it in their intended directions, such as a collapse to provide a global control of increased intensity. While it has been a grueling His-Story of continual and advancing oppression, perhaps we are all alive NOW to witness the real transitions, a free and loving market of exchange based on respect and sovereignty, perhaps I'm delusional too. I DUNNO!

I do know I don't want to subsist/exist on the backs of 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 or any other number of '3rd' world slaves, whether they be in the US (soon?) or anywhere on the globe, so for me, I'm super-down-sizing, I wanna be a wisp with a micro-footprint.

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Old 09-20-2008, 07:06 PM   #11
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I'm glad this thread fills you with positivity Zynox.

There is some great work out there for reading if you are interested in learning about exchange, or pre-capitalist, economies. THE BEST, the book that sort of changed my life, is a book by French Anthropologist Maurice Godelier titled "The Mental and the Material." He has another book out, "The Enigma of the Gift," which is partly his own views on gift giving, and partly a critique of another, early twentieth century anthropologist named Marcel Mauss. One other name worth mentioning is Claude Meiliaseux [sic - I never can spell the guy's name right unless I'm looking at it, sorry], who wrote "The Anthropology of Slavery," and "Maidens, Meal, and Money." All of these works give insight into the process called "articulation," which is the way exchange/pre-capitalist economies succumb to external market forces.

I'm also going to instant messenge you on another point, so as not to derail the thread.
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:17 PM   #12
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Thanks for the book recommendations HistoryCircus,

My favorite read on future look from current money replacement endeavors is Health Money Healthy Planet.

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Old 09-20-2008, 08:26 PM   #13
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Excellent article, and thank you for posting.

I heard Condy Rice's spiel the other day on NPR, where she said Russia was on a path to "self imposed isolation and international irrelevance." Puhleeez . . .

Russia controls one of the largest natural gas reserves on the planet at a time when fossil fuel use has YET to reach its peak. Putin could moon the United States delegate on the floor of the UN, and still command more "relevance" than say, France or Spain in the world. The same could be said for China, with its manufacturing and banking explosion. Both China and Russia don't really have to respond to any criticism from the West - they don't have to. That fits with what the author said about war provoked by the west.

What are your thoughts on Benjamin Fulford, and his views of the east-west economic dichotomy that has emerged since the fall of the Berlin Wall?
A lesser evil would have choked on her words, but Condee managed to twist the truth quite convincingly to those who continue to believe that the US is the greatest nation on earth. Glad you mentioned that speech. I nearly swerved off the road into a tree just to quell the rage and disgust I felt listening to her.

I watched the Fulford video on teh China quake many times. IF it was due to HAARP, the Chinese are certainly aware, but have chosen to do nothing, perhaps they recognize that time is on their side.

Every time I hear or see something about the Berlin Wall I'm reminded by the prophetic lyrics of Leonard Cohen written, I think, almost 15 years ago:

Give me back the Berlin wall
give me Stalin and St Paul
I've seen the future, brother:
it is murder

It's only recently that I've come to understand that the collapse of the Berlin Wall meant the end to any impediments to rapacious capitalism - at least in the West. One only has to look down south, to events in Venezuela and Bolivia to see that the beast has its limitations.
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:36 PM   #14
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I watched the Fulford video on teh China quake many times. IF it was due to HAARP, the Chinese are certainly aware, but have chosen to do nothing, perhaps they recognize that time is on their side.
Perhaps Hurricane Ike was a directed response by the 'Chinese', perhaps all powers are in the game together with 'minor' skirmishes and weather wars, geo-wars almost treated like children playing rock-em sock-em robots, with deadly and nonproductive consequences.

All I am certain of, as fact, is that the laced trails in the skies were not present when I was a child, teen or in my 20s. I first observed them around 1997.

~ namaste / Chem-Trails - Got a Theory?~
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:48 PM   #15
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i beleive the current system is defunct now and wil not be recoverable.im not bothered about it crashing apart form the untold suffering of the human population still trapped and asleep in their material prisons. ill justy get on with it whatever comes. i just want to be ready thats all, food, equipment, seeds, survival gear.then get networking inot commune type existences. if we get left alone that is;/
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:21 PM   #16
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I too feel sorry for those still asleep, and for those who don't recognize that there are other ways. I think the powers that be have done a great job getting us to use the phrase "free markets" instead of "market system" in reference to Capitalism. Market systems, by their very nature, are already free. The term "free market" is an oxymoron. The "free" has been added to tie it with notions of "freedom," which is patriotic, etc. To challenge the "market system" does not invoke the sentiments of cultural treason quite like challenging "free markets." Because, as we know, challenging "free markets" means that one must support unfree markets, and is therefore an unpatriotic, devil worshipping traitor.

I too want to be prepared before it all goes to ****, and I think many of us will be, and can help those who don't quite get it together in time.

Thanks for your comments
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:32 PM   #17
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HistoryCircus,

You have jarred loose a meme for me, in the application of free markets as a phrase. I suppose I fell into a trap on this, as there are a variety of market types, regulated markets, bars and meat markets (smiles), global and local markets, etc. So it felt ok to use the predecessor free with markets, as it seemed to ensure which markets were referenced.

But now, I suspect that you are spot on my friend, I absorbed a meme which I shall endeavor to unmeme (tm). With my inherent respect for sovereignty, I find I have also associated the two, like the free market phrased parasitically attached itself to my deeper core orientation towards all things sovereign.

What I see for the next three to nine weeks is cascading markets, and, impacts across the lands.

~ namaste ~
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:40 PM   #18
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You know what is interesting Zynox? I almost used the word "meme" in that last post, and figured it might lose some. But meme it is - for many, Capitalism means exactly that: "free" markets. That is why so many don't want to let go . . .
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:47 PM   #19
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As I think about it more, I agree with Zynox - how in the hell can one look at what is going on and conclude something different. The markets are indeed going to head even further south in the coming weeks.

Those counting on liquid currency to prepare - to create those "radiant zones" - need to do that stuff now.

If you have credit cards, you could, if you buy these theories, stockpile, and help those who will find you. When the smoke clears, those companies will not be hunting you down.
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:58 PM   #20
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You know what is interesting Zynox? I almost used the word "meme" in that last post, and figured it might lose some. But meme it is - for many, Capitalism means exactly that: "free" markets. That is why so many don't want to let go . . .
And is everything BUT free! If you start to think how chasing this illusionary dream has enslaved us...from the personal level, to the fabric of families and nations ... As soon as I think I am free of all restrictive thinking about money/economy/capitalism another meme-bug surfaces from those well conditioned corners of my mind...
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:08 PM   #21
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That is how they get you. You carry thier symbols in your wallet. So do I. It was a system designed and imposed on us before our births (unless you're like 80 or something). We are waking up, however, and will soon have a choice. Fair exchange, or exchange for profit? The solace I take from the coming collapse is that that very question will be decided by us. I hope we make the right one.

Keep your cheer and your humor - despite the crap.
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Old 09-21-2008, 01:39 AM   #22
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Folks, Friends,

This may turn out to be a long post, I am never certain when I plant the seed how high the tree will grow.

We have somewhat diverted from HistoryCircus' (not sure where to put that apostrophe, the old rules escape me) post, yet I really am enthused by what we are discussing here, so many cool tangents.

I am fortunate (how the hell that happened or why escapes me) to have no debt and a minor preservation of wealth (so far!), 90% in metal. Yet, with all my engagement in research and exposure to great writers and minds, I still get enchanted by the memes, perhaps because they are so numerous and well orchestrated and financed, I DUNNO!

What I have found is most intriging, and that is, statistically unproven, 99.23145 % of the US population doesn't seem to recall honest money, backed by restrictive silver and gold. I routinely give silver dollars as tips when I eat out, and often the 'value' of the tip is 40-90% of the bill. I slip these discretely into the check holder with a business card sized deal that says "Your service has been as precious to me as this genuine silver dollar" and goes on to briefly talk about the shenanigans amplified by fiat paper money, the Federal Reserve and that it all leads to war.

I always glance later, hanging out like a spy, to gauge reactions, and mostly, recipients are excited to hold it, to show it off and usually it passes many hands. All I can conclude from these fun moments is that there is some core gene, some core knowing, some core magnetic attraction by humans to these elusive metals. In the end, as I have exhaustively exposed and expelled here on Avalon, the stuff is a tool, a mechanism to control the government, to limit war and to preserve wealth as we transition, from here/now to there/now.

~ namaste / Attracted to Shiny Metals? ~
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Old 09-21-2008, 02:30 AM   #23
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Perhaps silver, gold, and platinum exude a field magnetic (or magic), in conjunction with other magnetic and gravitational fields, that keeps us paying attention - for some reason.

Hell, I don't know.

Honest money has been long gone before you and I were born. Andrew Jackson, despite being a disgusting, racist, Indian hating killer, warned us about transferring our system to paper. He hated Biddle, the father of our central banking system. His hate was probably wrong, but his apprehension about the use of paper, symbolic script seems right on.
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Old 09-23-2008, 10:53 PM   #24
RaKaR
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

Capitalism is doomed.

It is a matter of evolution; capitalism should have gone to the next step long ago, that is, the stage whereby some social justice, the environment, the Spiritual needs of People... would be taken into serious consideration.

Only having a Human face - that is evolving into some sort of scientific and technological socialism - could yet save this system and all the good things it could have provided to mankind, provided it would be guided by Reason and not greed alone.

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RaKaR,
www.futureofmankind.co.uk
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Old 09-23-2008, 11:41 PM   #25
historycircus
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Default Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

If we face a future where it is up to us to create a new economic system, could we return to the use of the market, or are we better off finding another way? Perhaps a return to principles of exchange? Should we consider some sort of socialism - despite the failures observed in the old USSR?
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