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Old 10-27-2008, 01:29 PM   #1
AndyH
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Default Police state UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7692677.stm

Sheesh.. I see that after looking at - http://www.no2id.net/newsblog/

and then there's this...
http://search.bbc.co.uk/search?uri=%...toolbar&q=stab

It's almost a daily thing now, a stabbing here then a law change removing yet more liberties here all in the name of fighting terrorism while all the time terrorism is going on in the towns of Britain with gangs of yobs running amok.

All I can say is...I'm glad I got the hell out and there's no way I'm coming back.
The daft thing is the newspapers are actually telling a lot of truths, including the BBC, but its always on the websites, never on the television or the front page of the papers. Makes you want to scream :/
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Old 10-27-2008, 02:29 PM   #2
Elephant Man
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I got out of London in 1987. Knew when I was a kid I would, but thats a long story.
When I visit London I notice stuff that residents dont, the rules and regs. are just getting out of hand. I have told my wife about it, but she never took too much notice. We were in England june this year, first time in a couple of years for her, she was amazed. The airport was crawling with armed (and I mean seriously armed) police, everything was checked, then checked again. Even traffic wardens outside the airport behaved like they were the police, seriously it was scary. Friends and family just sort of shrugged and said you learn to ignore it and what can we do about it anyway? That is the most scary, people are just accepting one insane law after another. I mean things like being fined for putting your rubbish bin out on the wrong day, it can result in a fine bigger than if you get caught for burglery!!! I'm trying to get family n friends to open up to whats going on, but am sorry to say that the general reaction is "what can we do about it?" The UK is seriously far down the road of total control and it is ganna have to stop. Good thread
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Old 10-27-2008, 02:59 PM   #3
AndyH
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Default Re: Police state UK

Aye, the apathy is the scariest of all...I suppose I'm guilty myself as I've run away from it. That said..what else can you realistically do for your family? Land yourself in jail for shooting chavs? Heh..I suppose I shouldn't laugh, I can see that happening very soon.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ssault-victims

Check that out...now THAT should be front page news, THAT is something real and dangerous.
I suppose western countries will report crime better hence the higher rates, that said it is still very important for the UK as it shows that there is clearly a problem.
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:15 PM   #4
Jacqui D
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Default Re: Police state UK

England has become the cess pit of the world i'm afraid to say, can't speak of Scotland, wales or Ireland because the only place i have travelled to would be Scotland and things have changed even there.
Inner London is a no go area, as many other counties are being taking over
by this loutish behaviour.
Our kids today have been programmed by these video games showing that crime is nothing but a game to them and killing is just another level to gain on their computor games.
Now they have become blind to where the line has been drawn nothing is unobtainable for them. Drink is handed to them cheaply by older peers or the scrupulous shopkeepers who don't care where they get there money from be it from kids most of the time.
Or there smoking themselves to death or worse on drugs and once that game is played out there is no way back.
Christ what a society this country has to look back on in future years that's if we are all still here.
Perhaps a cleansing of the planet may be the only chance.
Kids are not kids today they are robotic drones who have been manipulated by the establishment.
Shame but it;s the truth, god help us all!
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Old 10-27-2008, 06:01 PM   #5
AndyH
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Default Re: Police state UK

I wouldn't pin the blame on video games, I would say it's a small part of it.
I see the UK's problems stemming from a breakdown of the family.
Single mothers are the norm on many a council estate, some only pretend to be single with the father occasionally popping round from his flat or mates house etc, just so they can get extra benefits.
It's this nanny state system that has led to this imho.
It's no longer considered normal for a family to have the father as the breadwinner and the wife as the homemaker.
It's no longer even possible for a father alone to pay for a large family and to have all the goodies that a "normal family" has portrayed on television. Women have become very materialistic and men have become very violent and ignorant. It's the perfect recipe for disaster.
I noticed that a lot of families are on "working families tax credit" which boosts salaries up to a "respectable level" simply because many businesses cannot afford to pay a decent salary.
Business expenses are tax deductable but staff wages are not tax deductable and therefore they are the first to be hit with redundancies and pay cuts etc.
The whole system in the UK is geared to **** from high above on the ordinary Joe.
Little wonder gangs of yobs wander the streets, half of them have never had a normal family, most cannot be bothered to get a job because the state looks after them.
Menial tasks are given to Eastern European immigrants who are happy to work for little pay as it means much more to them back in their own country, not to mention, there are various state loopholes for these immigrants to use in respect to tax and welfare etc.
I don't blame the immigrants (after all I am one myself now) they're only taking advantage of what's on offer.
Just a shame the UK youth isn't doing the same..

I pity those still in the UK and both my wife and I miss our friends and family still over there.

This outrageous attack on the traditional family unit is at the heart of everything...divide et impera.
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:08 PM   #6
pineal-pilot-in merkabah
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Default Re: Police state UK

learn some defence techniquies. i have some dvds on lethal and non lethal knife and gun disarm.. remember if someone points a knife at you , you have to assume your life in in danger so you must act accordingly. breaking someones elbow or temp blinding /braking their nose is preferable to being stabbed. although not nice for the assailant-s its better than breaking their necks and killing them..
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:14 PM   #7
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Andy - I know you haven't exactly outlined the situation I'm about to mention, you simply mentioned a particular group of people - but I wanted to reply in respect of what I feel to still be a somewhat dubious perception about women.

I definitely believe in the family unit - for the most part it is invaluable. However, much of the work I've done over the last decade is within the community and I know of two-parent families where the kids are witnessing domestic violence before they've even left home in the morning for school. In a past 'nuisance youth' situation, only one child in the thirty-strong group came from a single-parent home.Many of the kids who get into trouble locally come from two-parent families. It just isn't possible to generalise and say that two parents = social balance, one parent = social destruction.

I was a single-parent who worked my socks off to get a mortgage, educate my son and keep him in activities and off the streets. Still, I was tarred with the 'single mother' brush. It never ceased to amaze me why, in what often seemed a witch hunt of single mothers, the man who had chosen to walk away was never mentioned. The focus is almost always on the woman. Who, incidentally, chose not to terminate, adopt or walk away. Odd.

There are single parents at every level - the Royal family, for example, is or has been mostly single mothers (i.e. Diana, Sarah, Anne, and minors). The same is true of celebrities. Very few cast aspersions on these single parents because they are financially able - the perceptions are different. This leads me to believe that money, not marriage, is the variable.

I'll climb off my portable soapbox soon

Having also worked closely with local bobbies and the like, the truth of the matter is that the police have very few powers. They want to curb the nuisance youth issues but have few laws to use. The edict from on high is that we shouldn't criminalise children, thus, when they get into trouble, the options available to the police and JP's are limited.

Parents no longer support teachers. Police cannot act. Children are fully aware of their 'human rights' . Coupled with the daft health and safety measures and the overly-cautious child protection issues and you have absolutely no way to give a kid the boundaries they need. People are increasingly backing away from working with kids because it's just too darned risky. Perhaps you saw a recent documentary on TV where a couple of child actors posed as lost children in a shopping mall - literally hundreds walked by them, too nervous to approach and offer help. Similarly, youth clubs, sports schemes and so on fail because either a) people are too wary to work with kids or b) the community is too apathetic to support the schemes and work together. It's always someone else's responsibility.


Back in the 80's and 90's the competitive element was removed from schools. The rationale was that children shouldn't feel failures at a young age. I can remember my son growing up in that era and playing football - to my horror he got a medal simply for turning up at 5-a-side competitions. Winning had no place. The knock-on effects of that are kids who do expect something for nothing. Programs like the X-factor, Big Brother or highly paid sportsmen have made celebrity desirable. Kids want to be famous and look up to dubious role models.

I've mentioned parents, but I'll mention them again - many do not support their children. Some don't question where their kids are going, who they are with or what they're planning to do. I don't say this as a generalisation, but as a result of working experience. The more parents opt out, the more the government is invited in.

People do have a voice but they are often too apathetic to use it. Certainly, the last decade or so of spin has left many cynical. Still, I notice how easily people are deceived by the celebrity culture themselves - voting for the politician who has the most charisma or voting for a specific party because they always have - as did their father before them. If they really want something done they need to find their own voice and get involved with their community rather than wanting the government to do it all - and then freaking out because the State is beginning to control.

Now, where's my spanner - I really need to dismantle this soap box
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:42 PM   #8
AndyH
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Default Re: Police state UK

Allie, of course I'm generalising. You are obviously not of the ilk I described above. However, most of the yobs on the estate I used to live in (near Newcastle) were indeed just as I described. Not all of the UK is like this, I used to live in Cumbria and it was a lovely place but I couldn't afford to stay there once I got married and had kids so I had to move...to that hellhole.
I notice that parliament are about to vote on outlawing smacking (again).
I don't blame women and I don't even blame men. I blame the UK in general for letting things get this far.
The tories,lib dems and the labour party are all one and the same. A bunch of self serving corrupt puppets with the exception of a few MP's who never make it because they "don't toe the party line".
This is the problem with a society based on benefits, there's no way to examine each and every individual case and give fair and balanced judgements.
Socialism doesn't work any better than capitalism. It's just another excuse to stick their noses in your life and make a mess of it.
The UK cannot even hope to vote their way out of trouble as there is no other choice to be had.

I suppose this backs up what has been said by several of project camelot's interviewee's and Zeitgeist for example, what's needed is a complete change in the way we live our lives. Knowing what is right instead of depending on others to do the right thing for us.
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Old 10-27-2008, 08:05 PM   #9
Allie
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I've got to agree with your last paragraph, Andy

There is a massive state of dependency and apathy in parts of the UK. The dependency isn't necessarily to do with benefits, but in the notion that the raising of children is the role of everyone else - except the parents. Aaargh!!

Locally, there are so many people who berate 'someone else' because there is not enough being done in the way of activities for children / young people. Not a single one of them would be prepared to get off their sofa's and help out at a club or a fund-raising event. People are pretty good at moaning, but pretty useless at taking some action.

Working in a community is an absolute eye-opener. As I said in my previous soapbox, we really shouldn't be surprised at a Nanny state - our apathy is just inviting it in. We've become very inward-looking - and pretty darned litigious too. Some of the health and safety measures exist simply because people sue over the tiniest things and create the need for institutions to be very wary and careful.

Well, better be off. My toast has just burnt my mouth so I need to go and sue the manufacturers.
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Old 10-27-2008, 08:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: Police state UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allie View Post
I've got to agree with your last paragraph, Andy

There is a massive state of dependency and apathy in parts of the UK. The dependency isn't necessarily to do with benefits, but in the notion that the raising of children is the role of everyone else - except the parents. Aaargh!!

Locally, there are so many people who berate 'someone else' because there is not enough being done in the way of activities for children / young people. Not a single one of them would be prepared to get off their sofa's and help out at a club or a fund-raising event. People are pretty good at moaning, but pretty useless at taking some action.

Working in a community is an absolute eye-opener. As I said in my previous soapbox, we really shouldn't be surprised at a Nanny state - our apathy is just inviting it in. We've become very inward-looking - and pretty darned litigious too. Some of the health and safety measures exist simply because people sue over the tiniest things and create the need for institutions to be very wary and careful.

Well, better be off. My toast has just burnt my mouth so I need to go and sue the manufacturers.
Wow you read my mind. Excellent post!
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Old 10-27-2008, 08:27 PM   #11
AndyH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allie View Post
I've got to agree with your last paragraph, Andy

There is a massive state of dependency and apathy in parts of the UK. The dependency isn't necessarily to do with benefits, but in the notion that the raising of children is the role of everyone else - except the parents. Aaargh!!

Locally, there are so many people who berate 'someone else' because there is not enough being done in the way of activities for children / young people. Not a single one of them would be prepared to get off their sofa's and help out at a club or a fund-raising event. People are pretty good at moaning, but pretty useless at taking some action.

Working in a community is an absolute eye-opener. As I said in my previous soapbox, we really shouldn't be surprised at a Nanny state - our apathy is just inviting it in. We've become very inward-looking - and pretty darned litigious too. Some of the health and safety measures exist simply because people sue over the tiniest things and create the need for institutions to be very wary and careful.

Well, better be off. My toast has just burnt my mouth so I need to go and sue the manufacturers.
Absolutely, we've got a community just like that in Ireland (one which people help each other rather than govt), I feel safe here and the wife and kids love it.
What's better still is the Irish love us for some reason

Don't get me wrong, Ireland's far from perfect, there's still some places here (mainly Dublin & Limerick) that suffer from occasional trouble but it's a world apart from the UK.

Is it Warburtons or the toaster manufatcurers you're going to sue btw? lol!
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Old 10-27-2008, 08:50 PM   #12
Allie
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Re the Warburton/toaster manufacturer, I'm thinking the both of them.

Warburton's should take responsibility for producing the darned bread in the first place. If bread didn't exist, I wouldn't have attempted to make toast.

The manufacturer's of the equipment are without doubt culpable. How irresponsible to make a toaster produce toast that isn't automatically cooled down to the level of my sensory nervous system!

The irresponsibility of everyone else, eh?

I reckon I'm looking at suing for at least half-a-million
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Old 10-27-2008, 08:53 PM   #13
Allie
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PS - Can I join your community?

I think I've had it with mine. I could of course live up to my own maxims and start my own.....now there's an idea who's time has come
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Old 10-27-2008, 08:56 PM   #14
AndyH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allie View Post
PS - Can I join your community?

I think I've had it with mine. I could of course live up to my own maxims and start my own.....now there's an idea who's time has come
Absolutely! There's loads of Brits here, along with a german and a dutch family in the village. I live just a few miles from Jeremy Irons and his pink castle lol...

You would definitely blend in well here with a sense of humour like yours for sure
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Old 10-27-2008, 09:12 PM   #15
Allie
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I think that's more to do with your Council Tax, Patti.There's no obligation to vote per se - the average turn out at elections is proof of that
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Old 10-27-2008, 09:14 PM   #16
Allie
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I'd fight with you but I'm off to Andi's community

It's the mere thought of that pink castle
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Old 10-27-2008, 09:18 PM   #17
Allie
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By the way, Andi - my family is mostly French.

I suspect I have a kind of dual nationality that has an advatage in the UK - the Scots were strong allies of the French and my grannie was from County Cork. I'm currently seeking a Welsh link. Then I can't go wrong, really.
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Old 10-27-2008, 09:20 PM   #18
AndyH
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I'd fight with you but I'm off to Andi's community

It's the mere thought of that pink castle
LOL! Actually it happened unexpectedly, he painted his castle a completely different colour (how it should have looked when first built) but it reacted chemically with the stone wall and turned pink..lol. The Irish had quite a good laugh at his expense
Google Kilcoe castle.

Patti- in Ireland us Brits actually have the right to vote for Irish parliament (but not for their senators) and of course the EU elections. I chose not to register and guess what, the lady who called at the house said that's fine, you don't have to register, bid me a good day smiled at the kids and off she went.
There is no council tax here...period. !!
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:09 AM   #19
jack5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyH View Post
I wouldn't pin the blame on video games, I would say it's a small part of it.
I see the UK's problems stemming from a breakdown of the family.
Single mothers are the norm on many a council estate, some only pretend to be single with the father occasionally popping round from his flat or mates house etc, just so they can get extra benefits.
It's this nanny state system that has led to this imho.
It's no longer considered normal for a family to have the father as the breadwinner and the wife as the homemaker.
It's no longer even possible for a father alone to pay for a large family and to have all the goodies that a "normal family" has portrayed on television. Women have become very materialistic and men have become very violent and ignorant. It's the perfect recipe for disaster.
I noticed that a lot of families are on "working families tax credit" which boosts salaries up to a "respectable level" simply because many businesses cannot afford to pay a decent salary.
Business expenses are tax deductable but staff wages are not tax deductable and therefore they are the first to be hit with redundancies and pay cuts etc.
The whole system in the UK is geared to **** from high above on the ordinary Joe.
Little wonder gangs of yobs wander the streets, half of them have never had a normal family, most cannot be bothered to get a job because the state looks after them.
Menial tasks are given to Eastern European immigrants who are happy to work for little pay as it means much more to them back in their own country, not to mention, there are various state loopholes for these immigrants to use in respect to tax and welfare etc.
I don't blame the immigrants (after all I am one myself now) they're only taking advantage of what's on offer.
Just a shame the UK youth isn't doing the same..

I pity those still in the UK and both my wife and I miss our friends and family still over there.

This outrageous attack on the traditional family unit is at the heart of everything...divide et impera.
dont see any nanny state system you refer to.All i see are hard faced officials trying their best to deny people a decent standard of living.Most people i come into contact with are completely brain dead fom watching tv, and i refer to not only the youth but most so called adults.People who work are to busy protecting their own backs and pretending not to be human, to make any sense of what is going on in society.Shopping, washing cars, cutting grass, and doing simple do-it-yourself tasks are most peoples only interest, no wonder we are in such a mess!
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:22 PM   #20
AndyH
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Originally Posted by jack5 View Post
dont see any nanny state system you refer to.All i see are hard faced officials trying their best to deny people a decent standard of living.Most people i come into contact with are completely brain dead fom watching tv, and i refer to not only the youth but most so called adults.People who work are to busy protecting their own backs and pretending not to be human, to make any sense of what is going on in society.Shopping, washing cars, cutting grass, and doing simple do-it-yourself tasks are most peoples only interest, no wonder we are in such a mess!
Kind of depends on your perspective. All I see is rampant violence in the UK but I spent most of the time that I gained this impression in bad areas.
That said, I did post the news search link further up the thread showing stabbings on a daily basis.

By nanny state I meant socialism as it's presented in the UK.
I don't live there anymore so I have to pay my own way.
Funnily enough I pay less for the private health insurance than I did on UK taxes.
I added how much I paid as a percentage of my salary on all UK tax while I was there btw, turns out it was around 55%.

Here in ROI it's 28% inc tv license,road tax etc.

Whats really puzzling is that the irish govt pay almost 3 times the child benefit that's given in the UK.

A family with 4 kids can expect €738 a month in child benefit, iirc it was around £210 for 4 kids in the UK when I left a couple years ago.738 euros is roughly 590 quid. My guess is that they can manage it because they're not bashing the Arabs to death with the freedom stick.

Personally I couldn't care less, I'd rather simply have minimal govt and minimal taxation and be done with it.

The Eton and Harrow toffs we have in govt are clearly just as dim as the public who vote for the muppets.
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:38 PM   #21
Allie
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Oh, Andy, Andy - will you never learn?

I, too, went to Eton.

No - not really. (I'm female for a start)

Just fancied a little mischieviousness.
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:20 PM   #22
AndyH
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LOL!!
Must admit I almost bit there. I wonder if Thatcher went there with short hair and pants on?
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:29 AM   #23
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LOL!!
Must admit I almost bit there. I wonder if Thatcher went there with short hair and pants on?
Hi, Thatcher went to grammer school.Typical lower middle class up-bringing realy.
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Old 10-31-2008, 05:09 PM   #24
Allie
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Hi PattiSorry - maybe I was being a bit vague As usual Or perhaps I'm not thinking of the same form. I get one every year and it does say that you could be fined if you don't complete it. It's possible to complete it by phone if the information you gave last year hasn't changed.

If this is the same type of form then yes, it is often called an electoral register, and yes, there IS an obligation to list those over 18 who live in your house. However, its purpose is to determine from the information you provide, the number of people elibible to pay the council tax.

Council tax, is by law, an obligatory payment since it maintains public services. Because it's a law, non-payment results in a court summons. If you don't attend the court you can either be found 'guilty' in your absence or arrested. I've known it to happen. Councils chill you with the prospect of a fine because court proceedings cost them money.

Last edited by Allie; 10-31-2008 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:49 PM   #25
Jacqui D
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Default Re: Police state UK

Whilst i have to agree with the young mum syndrom( living on benefits etc

I do think we need to take a step back and look at where it all went wrong with the kids today.
Yes there are many broken families, but there were broken families when i was a kid also in the early 60's.
I myself was from a dysfunctional family but it never made me into a lout, a drunk, or gave me behavioural problems.
I also agree that the women today have to work because they need to keep up with the social must have these days.
It took years to get your home together when i first got married, today they want everything right away, now i'm not saying that they are not entitled to the home luxuries etc but there is no saving today to get those things you want, you just get out your credit card and pay for it later.
Well the situation of finances today may put a stop to that way of living and the old ideals may have to re occur.

As for the kids, they do not want to work these days, most have a chip on there shoulder about what they should or shouldn't do.
They have no experience yet they do have all the answers, when we were younger we had to listen too our elders and we actually learnt from there experiences. The young have no respect for older people and treat them with distaste. I know there are still a few good kids out there whom this doesnt refer to but on the whole, most of the British kids today are selfish unreliable, drunken, swearing louts.
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