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Old 11-08-2008, 10:15 PM   #76
Mike_Jetson
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

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Originally Posted by Average Joe View Post
Sorry Mike, but I can only agree that Zorgon's plan is good for restoring credit and nothing else. It certainly does not benefit you financially.

The way he put it across, unless I misunderstood it, was as a kind of secret way of making yourself money, and obviously that is impossible.

As for the opening of credit card accounts and making monthly payments on time to repair your credit rating, I thought that was fairly common knowledge?

And why create a £5,000 debt for yourself from nothing and a £135 monthly payment just to have another £15,000 credit available on top just waiting to **** you over?

As you can tell, I'm not a fan of debt, even if my mantra is pay back what you owe.
Well its a good way of looking creditworthy. Its very important if you either want a mortgage or have a mortgage but have gone and messed up your credit somehow. Especially if you are coming to the end of a fixed deal or simply spot a better deal with our rates moving down.

This method does require discipline and isnt for anyone who lost discipline and got in a mess in the 1st place.

Yes I agree its not a way to make money. I will read it again as im sure ive read something similar.

Remember this method is for people who simply cant get credit. That could mean no landline phone, no mobile phone etc Many companies will credit check you even if they dont have to create credit for you. If you pay a bit of cash anyone can credit check you if they like. hell quite a lot of employers do it.

Technically its the best way of getting some good credit records with lots of lenders and it will cost you about $700

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Old 11-09-2008, 12:27 AM   #77
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

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Originally Posted by Esther View Post
I think your point is judging, something you do really well. When people pay a debt over and over and interests rate and rules keep changing so much one cannot keep up, when people loose their homes to lies, it's time to say stop. And when banks sell loans to other banks with different rules, it's time to say stop. And when governments allow the rules to change to the detriment of a nation, it is time to say stop. And when that same government gives corporations a huge bailout to companies that have had obscene profits, it is time to say stop!!!!!!

In insiders circles, banks are known as legal thieves.

At one point, my husband had to pay a deductible of over $24,000 because he ended up in intensive care. Did we get in debt? Yes, we did. I was not about to let him die.

Get off your high horse and stop judging others.
So did you pay it? Did you make arrangement to pay eighty dollars a month taking food off the table to do it until it was paid. I have Miss Esther and I have been in your shoes. My daughter was hit by a car and we did.

Or did you cry poor mouth and skate like another poster in this thread bragging how he paid pennies on the dollar for foolish debt and offering to show others how to do it?

Don't try to play high and mighty with me till you have
paid for your neighbors medicine out of your own pocket. I work in health care and I've done that several times on occasion through the years for my patients and coworkers.

We made an interest free loan to a man who needed a leg up of two thousand dollars three years ago. He paid me a thousand dollars back when I threatened him with
the felony of grand theft. Three years later he still owes me 1000 and is full of excuses. Fifty five dollars a month
would have seen it paid by now. I'd have been happy with ten dollars a month because it shows good faith.

I don't have too much sympathy for the sense of entitlement that I see on a daily basis among the very rich and the very poor. I love and have great respect for the working stiff who comes to me who has no insurance and no respect at all for the medicare recipient that I bring gatoraide for who then complains that they wanted orange and not green. Or the man driving the jag flipping his medicare card at me

Don't talk to me about high and mighty until you have been so poor that you have to save for months to buy a pair of shoes at the good will. My wife has been. Have you ever counted potatoes to make sure you had enough to last the week? My wife has.

Buy a sixty thousand dollar home instead of a four hundred thousand dollar home just because you can.

If your government has gone rogue on you and I agree with you that it has, honey, it's your own fault. You get the government you deserve. I suggest that you scrape together the money, perhaps join with your neighbors to buy a copy of Naomi Wolfs book Give Me Liberty. Then get up off your duff and do something about it.

I'm impressed with action, not excuses. If someone has done you a favor, you are in debt. Don't pay it back, pay it forward. Do your part to make the world a better place. America's greatest generation is all but gone now.
They had ethics. They had morals, and they had honor.
Do you?

Last edited by Baggywrinkle; 11-09-2008 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:14 AM   #78
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

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Originally Posted by 371 View Post
I got out of over $20,000 of reckless credit debt by paying $2500 few years ago.

I did it myself, you just gotta know what to say
Although, this comment is NOT aimed directly at 371
take this for what it is worth:

there was $20,000.00 of energy taken
(reckless, or, otherwise, it does NOT much matter)
you used $20,000.00 worth

then there was $ 2,500.00 of energy paid back

the $17,500.00 is still floating / NOT yet paid back

one way/or another the universe will haul it out of your ass

NOW...another thing to ponder

whatever you have ever been, you always get to be

and,

whatever you have lost,
will always, & in all ways,
be returned to you, in some other way

energy is energy

a contract is a contract - it is an oath (to pay back)
(or, to get paid back) depends on what side of the equation you are on

there is NO getting out of any kind of energetic transfer !!!

some of us, do hit a point,
where we start to get, philantrophic karma,
and, there are a lot of people, who benefit,
from that type of energetic transfers,
when parents/or family, or friends,
who pass on & leave money in their wills,
to us

oft times, if you raise your energy,
the flow of dollars, will also increase,
however, i am glad, that anything,
i have ever borrowed,
i have always, been able to pay back.

when i look, at people, who borrowed from me,
and, never did pay me back, i do NOT need to wonder,
why they are still floundering and, struggling,
and, what is worse,
is they do NOT even realise why,

a few of them,
do NOT appear, to be doing that badly,
however, i look at them, and, they buy the wife,
a 2nd hand BMW, to look good, and,
yet, they do NOT have the $5,000 to pay me back -- sooner, or later,
some of them, might get wise,
and, realise, that, they could pay me $50/mo
instead of nothing
& a lot of things would change for them

however, what is the purpose,
to hound them for the money ?
they know they owe me

the universe, will take it from them,
one way or another
and, the universe, will give it back to me,
one way or another
it is really an intrique weaving process,
which is merely, the way in which, the score gets kept

personally, i do NOT think you escape anything

it is a time to be responsible -- live simple !!!

love
susan
the eXchanger
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Old 11-09-2008, 01:06 PM   #79
Mike_Jetson
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

Susan youve missed the point entirely. If you missed some of the facts I wrote then this could be why youve maybe missed the point. If you want to look at it as transference of energy than I can handle that easily.

A true asset that the bank has the possibility to lose creates risk. The risk factor decides the interest rate. Now, if the bank has no risk of losing any asset then how do they decide on the rate? Its a fact that they create an asset which you lawfully own. You own the instrument that is held against the debt which you are supposed to get back once the debt is paid. This is most definately not like loaning a neighbour some cash, thats entirely different as the asset held is trust. Your neighbours doesnt pay he loses the trust he had with you.

The banks fraudulently create an asset in your name and use this to create the debt that you can use. You are using your own money. Its like the secured credit card zorgon talked about except instead of you paying the bank cash so you can use their credit facilities the bank creates the cash for you. Its your cash before you even start to borrow it.

I strongly suggest people watch http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...&q=big+swindle

It was uploaded by a club I was a member of before I joined Liberty Wealth Club. Fast forward to 14min and the key part is around the 15min mark
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:08 PM   #80
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

Hi everyone

I'd like to add my two-penneth worth into this discussion.

Some years ago I managed to get myself out of all personal debt by selling a house that had apprecaited in worth. The reason was three fold:

1) So I didn't waste time working just to pay interest on what I borrowed.
2) To ensure as few people/organisations had any hold over me (when you owe someone, they have power over you).
3) Because I DETEST the immoral banking system.

Let's get one thing straight here: the majority of money in our economy HAS BEEN CREATED FROM THIN AIR! Where did the billions come to bail out the banks? It was created from nothing! Nobody put anything of worth into the deal - the money was simply created from nothing. This money is backed by nothing of worth - it is "fiat" currency.

Now, I don't have any credit card debts so I can't test out the fact that the agreements are uneforceable. But for those of you that, like me, would like your view of how the financial world works blown apart, I suggest you read "Spiritual Economics: How I Clobbered Every Bureaucratic Cash-Confiscatory Agency Known To Man" by Mary Elizabeth: Croft. You can download it for free from various places on the net.

For those of you who argue that, if you borrow $ 10,000 and don't pay it back, someone loses out show a naive understanding of how our economy works. If I spend $ 10,000 on my credit card, who has actually loaned me the money? No-one! It's just credit that has been created by my signature. That's why the contract is unenforceable. If you ask the credit card company to show you the actual accounting to validate the debt, they can't! They do not sustain a loss if you do not repay because the credit was created from nothing!

Lastly, a question for Mike. I quite like the sound of the Liberty Wealth Club but I have fallen victim to some of these network marketing scams before. Does the club offer something of real value or does it just teach people a "system" whereby you get paid for recruiting people into the system?

In other words, does it provide worthwhile financial information to their members in return for a fee, with those members that recommend others to join being paid a small commission or residual on their subscription (nothing wrong with that in my book)...

or...

Do they simply show you how to make money by recruiting people into the system who, in order to make money, have to recruit others with no actual worthwhile service or product being offered (a con, in my book)?
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Old 11-09-2008, 04:58 PM   #81
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Hi everyone



Let's get one thing straight here: the majority of money in our economy HAS BEEN CREATED FROM THIN AIR! Where did the billions come to bail out the banks? It was created from nothing! Nobody put anything of worth into the deal - the money was simply created from nothing. This money is backed by nothing of worth - it is "fiat" currency.
Agreed.

But that does not address the exchange of energy [labor] for goods and services, or goods and services exchanged for goods and services[barter].

No one wants to talk about that aspect

If you want a wide screen television that is valued at
1.36 ounces of gold, which is real money by any accounting that would be 1000 fiat dollars for discussion.

It took labor and materials to build that television. You need to come up with an equivalent amount of energy or goods to compensate the builders for their effort. Or you need to build your own television.

Put another way. The jerk that owes me 1000 fiat dollars. You are saying that he owes me nothing because I gave him nothing. This is not correct. I gave him forty hours of my life. He took the equivalent of my time and translated it into goods and services. Now he refuses to return the equivalent of my time to me. In order to replace that stored energy I am required to give up forty more hours of my time just to return to where I was before I encountered him. I am eighty hours older to maintain my lifestyle because of him.

You purchase a home for twohundredthousand dollars.
The owner walks away with the equivalent of 8000 hours of labor/life time that he will not have to work (using the pay rate of twenty five fiat dollars an hour). Now if you only give 1000 hours of your time, the owner has the time and your lender does not.

The value of an object or service is relative. If you can convince the owner to trade that home for a paper clip -
than it is a fair exchange because both parties are content with their exchange. However, if one of those parties is not content, then you have disparity and a problem. The point is, at the time of exchange you agreed that the value of that home was 8,000 hours of your life. Then, down the road you change your mind and only want to give 1000 hours of your life, yet can still exchange that home for eight thousand hours of another persons life? There is a disparity apparent here which I do not understand. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Money is just an exchange medium. A system of stored
energy. What is the value of your life? A paperclip? It is all negotiable.

I do not have a problem with renegotiating the entire system. But rest assured, it will be replaced with another system unless you are clever enough to get the rest of the world to give you their lives with nothing in return as the money changers have. In the end it all comes down to meeting the needs and wants of people.
On a small scale this is fairly easy. Face to face, you know when you have been swindled. You also know when you look in the mirror if you have behaved without integrity. But on a larger scale, it is much easier to lose sight of the ethics of living in the world.
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Old 11-09-2008, 05:30 PM   #82
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

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For those of you who argue that, if you borrow $ 10,000 and don't pay it back, someone loses out show a naive understanding of how our economy works. If I spend $ 10,000 on my credit card, who has actually loaned me the money? No-one! It's just credit that has been created by my signature. That's why the contract is unenforceable. If you ask the credit card company to show you the actual accounting to validate the debt, they can't! They do not sustain a loss if you do not repay because the credit was created from nothing!
Absolute utter rubbish. Get in the real world people.

It does not matter a toss whether the money is real or created from fresh air. It does not matter if the money is indeed fresh air. The FACT is that if you go to a shop and spend 10 grand on your credit card, the credit card company gives the shop 10 grand for your goods. The shop WOULD NOT accept your card if it thought it would not get the 10 grand from your credit card company!

The credit card company has PAID out 10 grand to the shop, who want their money, and is thus 10 grand down, and YOU owe it to the credit card company who advanced the money to the shop! There is no two ways about it and no getting away from this very basic fact!

It matters not that the credit card company did not send 10 grand in notes to the shop, and that it is just numbers on a computer screen or statement.

I can't believe the **** that people come out with to justify things.
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Old 11-09-2008, 06:02 PM   #83
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

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Absolute utter rubbish. Get in the real world people.

It does not matter a toss whether the money is real or created from fresh air. It does not matter if the money is indeed fresh air. The FACT is that if you go to a shop and spend 10 grand on your credit card, the credit card company gives the shop 10 grand for your goods. The shop WOULD NOT accept your card if it thought it would not get the 10 grand from your credit card company!

The credit card company has PAID out 10 grand to the shop, who want their money, and is thus 10 grand down, and YOU owe it to the credit card company who advanced the money to the shop! There is no two ways about it and no getting away from this very basic fact!

It matters not that the credit card company did not send 10 grand in notes to the shop, and that it is just numbers on a computer screen or statement.

I can't believe the **** that people come out with to justify things.
The problem is that it is also **** to change the rules on the ones who owe, to make them pay incredble amounts of money, something that constitutes government sponsored ususry by continually changing the rules. That is also an unfair exchange of energy. And I repeat, a repeal of the original contract.

What lalaland some people live in...
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Old 11-09-2008, 06:22 PM   #84
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

for those who are creating "the money"
there is major karma for them to pay, for doing so

i, for one, am very glad, i am NOT in their shoes

in fact, the only shoes, you can be in, are your OWN

do you honour the ones you are in ???

brightest blessings
susan
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Old 11-09-2008, 06:27 PM   #85
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

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Put another way. The jerk that owes me 1000 fiat dollars. You are saying that he owes me nothing because I gave him nothing. This is not correct. I gave him forty hours of my life. He took the equivalent of my time and translated it into goods and services. Now he refuses to return the equivalent of my time to me. In order to replace that stored energy I am required to give up forty more hours of my time just to return to where I was before I encountered him. I am eighty hours older to maintain my lifestyle because of him.
No, I am not saying that. The original question talked about credit agreements; what you allude to is not a credit agreement but a contract to supply goods or services. You do not have a legal right to create credit as banks do. If you attempted to do so, you would be arrested for counterfeiting.

In the transaction you detail above, you are more than able to show the accounting (i.e. that you have suffered material loss by somebody not paying you). Therefore, if you can also show that you have a legally binding contract with that person for supply of goods, you can collect, in fiat currency or any other medium of exchange agreed in your contract.

Banks and credit companies have given NOTHING and can therefore not show where a liability has occured. Again, I suggest you read the Mary Elizabeth: Croft book if you want to study the arguements.

Thanks for your comments, friend, and for advancing the discussion.
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Old 11-09-2008, 06:44 PM   #86
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

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Absolute utter rubbish. Get in the real world people.

It does not matter a toss whether the money is real or created from fresh air. It does not matter if the money is indeed fresh air. The FACT is that if you go to a shop and spend 10 grand on your credit card, the credit card company gives the shop 10 grand for your goods. The shop WOULD NOT accept your card if it thought it would not get the 10 grand from your credit card company!

The credit card company has PAID out 10 grand to the shop, who want their money, and is thus 10 grand down, and YOU owe it to the credit card company who advanced the money to the shop! There is no two ways about it and no getting away from this very basic fact!

It matters not that the credit card company did not send 10 grand in notes to the shop, and that it is just numbers on a computer screen or statement.

I can't believe the **** that people come out with to justify things.
Please read the "Croft" book I have already alluded to and you will see a different side to the arguement.

Contempt, prior to complete investigation, enslaves men to ignorance. – Dr. John Whitman Ray

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident. – Arthur Schopenhauer Philosopher, 1788-1860

Capital must protect itself in every possible way, both by combination and legislation. Debts must be collected, mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible. When through the process of law the common people lose their homes, they will become more docile and more easily governed through the strong arm of government applied by a central power of wealth under leading financiers. These truths are well known among our principal men who are now engaged in forming an imperialism to govern the world. By dividing the voter through the political party system we can get them to expend their energies in fighting for questions of no importance. It is thus by discreet action we can secure for ourselves that which has been so well planned and so successfully accomplished. – 1924 US Banker’s Association Magazine

When Rothschild said, Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes its laws, it was the beginning of the modern era’s financial, political, social, commercial, and military strife and subversion. – perfecteconomy.com

The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That board administers a finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. That system is private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people’s money.
This (Federal Reserve) Act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the president signs this bill, the invisible government by the monetary power will be legalized. The people may not know it immediately but the day of reckoning is only a few years removed, the worst legislative crime of the ages perpetrated by this banking bill. – Charles A. Lindbergh, R-MN

We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the money
vultures who control it. A superstate controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together to enslave the world for their own pleasure. – Louis McFadden, D-PA

Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve system have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States. – Barry Goldwater, R-AZ

I have unwittingly ruined my country. – W. Wilson, upon passage of Federal Reserve Act, 1913

If one understands that Socialism is not a “share the wealth” program but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of super rich men promoting Socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead it becomes logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking
megalomaniacs. Communism, or more accurately Socialism, is not a movement of the down-trodden masses but of the economic elite. – Gary Allen

It (the Great Depression) was not accidental; it was a carefully contrived occurrence. The international Bankers sought to bring about a condition of despair here so that they might emerge as rulers of us all. – Louis McFadden

The Federal Reserve definitely caused the Great Depression by contracting the amount of currency in circulation by one third (1/3) from 1929 to 1933. – Milton Friedman

There may be a recession in stock prices, but not anything in the nature of a crash. – Irving Fisher, leading U.S. economist, New York Times, Sept. 5, 1929

Practices of the unscrupulous money-changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men. The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. – FDR, who admitted he never read the Act which recalled the gold in 1933

History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance. –
James Madison

It is well enough that the people of this nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. – Henry Ford

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace in a continual state of alarm (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing them with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. – H. L. Mencken
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Old 11-09-2008, 07:03 PM   #87
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

Here is an interesting thread from the "Think Free" forums that give a perspective of "money" straight from the horses mouth, as it were, the Bank of England.

http://www.thinkfreeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3797
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Old 11-09-2008, 07:44 PM   #88
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It does not matter what money is or where it comes from, it is just a system of credits and debits anyway.

What i said in my last post is fact, fact and only fact.

You spend money on the credit card, it is somebodys money no matter what, and you owe it.

Now the extortionate interest rates, which they change as and when they feel like, now thats a point well made by esther.
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Old 11-09-2008, 09:42 PM   #89
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

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It does not matter what money is or where it comes from, it is just a system of credits and debits anyway.

What i said in my last post is fact, fact and only fact.

You spend money on the credit card, it is somebodys money no matter what, and you owe it.

Now the extortionate interest rates, which they change as and when they feel like, now thats a point well made by esther.
Yes, this is the game of commerce.

"A deposit created through lending is a debt that has to be paid on demand of the depositor, just the same as the debt arising from a customer's deposit of checks or currency in the bank. Of course they do not really pay out loans from the money they receive as deposits. If they did this, no additional money would be created. What they do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts." – Federal Reserve Bank, Chicago, Modern Money Mechanics, p. 6

So, if you want to keep playing the game and pay back money that they never lent you, go ahead. I've done the same thing, but I'm learning the rules of the game fast.

To quote Mary Croft:

" When we ‘borrow money’ from a bank, which seems to be the only entity from which we can borrow, our signature upon a ‘promise to pay’ is not only what gets us the loan but also what immediately repays the loan. Did the bank lend us money? No. There is no money. It didn’t lend ‘money’, it exchanged the credit we created for bank promissory notes. I watch people’s eyes glaze over when I mention this concept so think of this:

I take my credit card over to Sears and purchase $100 worth of goods. I sign on the line which states, “I agree to pay...” I do agree to pay, just as soon as they can devise a method for me to do this. Since 1933, when the USA declared bankruptcy and who knows when in Canada (since Canada was on and off the gold standard for some time after the uSA fell to the banksters) public policy (in the uSA: HJR 192 of June 5, 1933, and in Canada, Order in Council No. 16, April 10, 1933) has dictated that since there is nothing of
substance with which to pay, the best I can do is promise to pay. All public debt will be discharged by the feds. Those who hold the gold pay the debt. The only way to do this is to sign a note with the number attached to it. It is a promissory note – the same as that which we sign in a bank just before we are told they won’t lend us cash.

I have asked ‘loan officers’ why they won’t just hand over to me the cash which we’ve just agreed I was going to borrow. They say, “I don’t have the cash right here; I’ll give you a cheque which you can take over to the teller and she’ll either deposit it into your account from which you can then withdraw cash, or you can just cash the cheque.” I ask, “If its right over there with the teller, why can’t you go over for me and get the cash?” They then tell me that I have to endorse the cheque they intend to give me. But I signed for cash. I promise to pay $10,000 plus interest for ... $10,000, not a piece of paper with numbers and a date on it. Why isn’t this a straight exchange – note for cash? Because they want two signatures. Keep in mind that every time we sign anything, we are creating credit, rather, bringing forth our unlimited credit, and if for some reason we don’t receive this credit, count on the fact that someone else did – by stealing our exemption. To
boot, we have agreed to it – take a look at the (unilateral and hence, unenforceable) contract, whether it is your driver’s licence or your credit card application. Your exemption is being stolen through your signature. It is
worth a fortune. Time to take control, eh?

Let’s get back to Sears. When I went into the store for the goods and I made payment, in whatever form, what did I get for my payment? No, not the goods; I got a receipt. The direct exchange was signature for
receipt. The goods were already mine; I just came to collect them. So, the merchant is happy because I signed for the goods; i.e.: he exchanged goods for my signature which that day was worth $100, so his accounts are
balanced. He doesn’t see that he exchanged his receipt for my signature. My books are balanced because I exchanged my signature for his receipt, I also happened to get the goods, which were pre-paid. Then, the merchant sends to the bank, my signature along with the hundreds of others which he gathered that day. The bank then transfers funds electronically over to Sears. The bank did not gather up cash (or anything of substance) and send it over to Sears; it transferred to Sears, by the clicking of computer keys (Electronic Funds Transfer), the amount of credit matching, and hence balancing the amount of, the credit slips. I’ll say it again, because it is so stunning: NO MONEY ever left the bank to PAY Sears.

The next thing I know I get a bill from VISA for $100. For what? I’ve already ‘paid’ – at least to the extent of my ability. Public Policy has dictated that this is all I can do. How do you want to ‘pay’ for goods which are already yours? Via working forty hours a week? Or via your signature, thereby giving them your tax exemption?"
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:28 PM   #90
Average Joe
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

"If you want to play the game and pay back money that they never lent you"... Come on man.

You get a loan off a bank, its in your account, they lent you it! You owe it! Its money that you never had before you signed the form!

On another note, I'm increasingly disappointed at the "blame culture" that has sprung up in the last 10-20 years, and that blame culture is alive and kicking on this forum.

Its never our fault, always somebody elses. Its the banks fault that some people are drowning in debt, you fall over and cut your knee its somebody elses fault, you over eat and get fat or ill its somebody elses fault. Its never my fault or your fault though is it?

Why can people no longer take responsibility for their own actions? "Oh its not my fault I'm in debt - its the banks fault, and anyways they never really lent me the money in the first place! - so I shouldn't have to pay it back"

Truth be told it makes me sick.

How are we supposed to move forward as a population if nobody can take responsibility for their own actions, if people are looking for immoral ways out of debt and so on? What about other areas that we talk about?

Fact is if the SHTF and we've actually managed to build communities, how likely is it that these communities are full of not highly tuned, loving, giving people, but "Average Joe's" who will take no reponsibilty in the community, blame everybody else in the community when things go wrong, and given half a chance will stab you in the back?

Hell, a lot of us have a looooong way to go in personal development, and dodging agreed debt will set us back.
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:09 AM   #91
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

well all take our responsibility when they quit screwing everyone. No one has any money to pay it back with cuz the jobs suck and you 2 know it. We all dont work for the CIA. If I have a choice and I do, then the tables are turning. Debt is your game not mine.

Bring back all the jobs oh smart ones, make all this NWO stuff go away.

Peace out
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:14 AM   #92
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:05 AM   #93
MMe M
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Money is created from nothing. Zilch. Zero.


You are doomed to fail no matter your lifestyle when the lenders are in charge of the economy. What you could once afford with a little belt tightening is now beyond your income by large sums. Incomes have decreased and at best stagnated for twenty plus years in this country. You must eat, have transportation to work and live, shelter and clothing. If your income does not keep up with the cost of shelter, food, clothing and transportations costs you cannot maintain even a very frugal lifestyle without credit. The lenders know this. The money exchangers are in the house so you will be in debt till they are removed from power. It is that simple.

Many of you are pious and self rightous and say if you had only went without as I have you would not be in debt. If you werent so lazy you could work as I did to stay out of debt. If you didnt self indulge so often you wouldnt be in this mess. To those of you that go on and on in this vein, I say to you "Beware the words you spew today for you will live to see the others side in the most extreme example that can be visited upon you". This is quite simply the laws of fate and you asking for an abject lesson in humility to add insult to injury. The system is designed for many to fail and few to prosper. We are none of us indulgant in anything save survival currently. Many of us homeless or soon to be. How much more must we do without?
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:17 AM   #94
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simple.Money is created from nothing. Zilch. Zero.




Many of you are pious and self rightous and say if you had only went without as I have you would not be in debt. If you werent so lazy you could work as I did to stay out of debt. If you didnt self indulge so often you wouldnt be in this mess. To those of you that go on and on in this vein, I say to you "Beware the words you spew today for you will live to see the others side in the most extreme example that can be visited upon you". This is quite simply the laws of fate and you asking for an abject lesson in humility to add insult to injury. The system is designed for many to fail and few to prosper. We are none of us indulgant in anything save survival currently. Many of us homeless or soon to be. How much more must we do without?
You say that like it's a bad thing. Righteousness is the wellspring that gives you the power to move
mountains. No man, no system, and no government can stand against you when you move with the
conviction of righteousness. The problem right now is, you aren't mad enough.

When you got nothin, you got nothin to lose. If you are prepared to bleed, if you are prepared to die,
then ready your sauce pans for battle and bring them down. I will meet you there. Together we shall
speak truth to power.

HOOAH HOOAH!




You have forgotten the symbolism and the power that resides here

You no longer know what it is let alone what it means or why it is important. You don't know why this symbol adorns the emblem of your military and the seal of the U.S. Senate.

When you are angry enough with the conviction of righteousness to once again don the bonnet rouge contact me
and we shall have a tea party.

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Old 11-10-2008, 06:33 AM   #95
MMe M
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

[QUOTE=Baggywrinkle;76268]Then prepare your sauce pans for battle and bring them down


You are not in any position to disagree being that you use money. You know where you can put your sauce pans. I dont even know where your comments are coming from or what your intention is with that picture but if that is supposed to be some sexist commentary focused at me regarding the truth about the money lenders and this society we live in, then you can just shove your visuals along with any other utensils up your haystack! You are out there to be certain. For one, taking an Amish persons picture is creating a graven image, a bigtime no no in their religion, for another you live in the city but go on and on about primitive ways and means.

You presume to know what I have lost or not. You have no idea, nor sense enough to know the difference.

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Old 11-10-2008, 07:01 AM   #96
MMe M
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I am not French this go round, had a public school education and had to look up the red bonnet rouge. Fer chrizs sake. What does that have to do with pots and pans?

Its a wise child as kens it own father, fold and press.

Id host the tea party but I havent lost enough yet. Maybe next month. January for sure.

Last edited by MMe M; 11-10-2008 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:17 AM   #97
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.

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Old 11-10-2008, 07:26 AM   #98
MMe M
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

[QUOTE=Baggywrinkle;76286]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMe M View Post

I love you, and I honor and respect you enough to challenge you to remember your heritage.

We are Quakers, with strong Anabaptist leanings. As a seeker I do not yet have the conviction to take
the Dordrecht confession. That makes me a fighting quaker. Smedley Butler is a hero of mine.

Now go and do your homework, to see what those images really mean.

With loving intent

-d-
okey dokey. Ill go look.

You just cant judge those that appear as though they arent careful and are seemingly wanting to shirk their responsibilities. Those that do will pay with their own lessons to be learned. Goodness knows I must have had more money than my share in a previous incarnation to be on this end of the stick this go round. Some are less fortunant than others and its duced hard to budget what isnt in existance. Its just a trap set by others.

There but for the grace of the Gods go I. Thats the ideal I try to live by.

Love to you too, Baggs

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Old 11-10-2008, 10:03 AM   #99
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well all take our responsibility when they quit screwing everyone.
Course you will. Why don't I believe this?

All I've been saying is that two wrongs don't make a right.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:03 PM   #100
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Default Re: Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayabl

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Course you will. Why don't I believe this?

All I've been saying is that two wrongs don't make a right.
You know, I can really empathise with Av Joe's point. No-one forces us to borrow money in excess of our means. However, for most of us it is a necessary evil, particularly where property is concerned. I was taught the principles of living within my means and all the rest that goes along with it but I am prepared to accept that my behaviour and attitudes have been conditioned to a certain extent.

I believe there is much evidence that our monetary system is corrupt and is manipulated by the central banks to achieve social change and profit. There is also ample evidence that our currency is backed by nothing except our own confidence in it's ability to be accepted as a means of exchange.

However, recently much information has been put in the public domain regarding the actual mechanics of money creation. For instance, there is the arguement that all money is actually debt, borrowed into existence by our governments, backed by government bonds which are in turn backed by...what? The resources of a country? The population's labour? Some assert that our birth certificates are floated as bonds...Some assert that the money that accrues from this is put into trust as our share of the national wealth. Governments then borrow against these bonds.

What is the truth?

Does it matter?

The system is clearly corrupt, outdated, unworkable and unsustainable. It is my opinion that these credit card agreements are unenforceable because of what I have said above. Because nothing of value is involved - only movement of debt (money being a debt instrument, not an instrument of value).

If people challenging these agreements hastens the end of the monetary system and gets us all thinking about new ways to order our lives, then I for one shall be glad.
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