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Old 11-21-2008, 06:57 AM   #1
taomation
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Default Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

Bill and Kerry. I love you guys but I believe that you are making a big mistake.

Paying to post means that yet again, the money controls the information, just like it does on T.V. and the radio. If you got the bucks you choose the what people hear and see and what they don't. It just doesn't fly with what you promote that you are trying to do.

I believe that you should go the other direction and leave the forum alone and charge at Camelot, just like the Conscious Media Network does.

This may seem like the same logic, but it is not. This way people could still get old interviews and the information on them and the subscribers get first in line for the new stuff. This way, in the end, no one is censored. The non-subscribers just have to be a little more patient.

I completely understand that you need funds to do all of your great work, but I don't feel that shutting out the voices of the "Ground Crew" is the way to achieve
that. It doesn't quite jive...Tao
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Old 11-21-2008, 05:03 PM   #2
Connecting with Sauce
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

I agree 110% and have donated to PCamelot today $25 for the 2-3 months I've used Camelot. I have found the information invaluable but I'm not convinced people will stick around TBH for a forum which to quote Camelot's own words in their updated post today states...

Project Avalon costs almost nothing to host....

but being aware that...

The problem we're addressing is how best to fund Project Camelot... and ...with the running costs of the entire Camelot enterprise, which continues to expand in scope and potential

I would happily pay for Camelot for up to the minute information... I'm sure most people would who could or wait for a month or so for FREE ARCHIVAL INTERVIEWS as per CMN. Donations could still be possible also...

My view is make the thing that costs the money pay for itself and use the forum to promote latest articles and interviews etc recently posted on PC to get people to WANT to see it early...

I'm sure you could get advertising from ethical companies selling water filters, water energisers, suppliments, supplies, bullion dealers, you name it all the stuff we discuss on here... Even Adverts of none disclosed nature... Pizzahut is below CMN right now for "20% off your first online pizza!"

Using the Mayan consciousness level Ian Lungold discussions... Think of what is ethical and it will work. Getting us to pay for something which 'costs almost nothing' in my mind is not ethical so unfortunately I can't see it working long term...
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Old 11-21-2008, 05:17 PM   #3
RubyTuesday
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

I also agree totally. And thank you for everything Bill and Kerry. I wish you only the best and appreciate all you have done with PC.

There also appear to be a few mods who have been on powertrips of sorts. That's disheartening as well. Thank you to all the mods who have strived to treat the members here with kindness, consideration, respect and empathy in the spirit of Avalon.

And again I give much credit to Karen for sticking out her neck and trying to "fix" this. She deserves nothing but praise for her efforts to unite and all the work she has done along with the stress it all entailed.

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Old 11-21-2008, 05:36 PM   #4
joe2288
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Talking Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

well i have to honestly thank project camelot for a great deal of all the

information i have learned without there videos id still be confused about

what is really goin on if five dollars a month helps them fund there project

then im here to help
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Old 11-21-2008, 06:55 PM   #5
crowmirror
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

did it ever occur to anyone that you dont need to travel anywhere to
interview someone (especialy these days w/ all the tech we have)
if its the info that counts i dont need to see their faces! so to travel all over is a luxury...get over it....telephone...vid conference..ect but dont ask folks who have very lil to pay for your luxury
when they themselfves cant even go on vacation.





p.s. MODS: I respectfully request that my account, and ANY records you hold of my registration details/Email address, or any other info you have about me (?!) be deleted from ALL your systems please. My posts can stay visible/public.. no need to delete those. But I do wish to have all records/info/details about me which you hold on ANY of your systems or records immediately deleted. Many thanks.
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:11 PM   #6
raoulduke666
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

I have never been a member of a forum that I had to pay for nor will I probably ever will. Now, if sources of whistleblower testimony is released or info that is actually FACT...well thats a different story.

I'm tired of conspiracies. I want cold, hard facts!
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Old 11-22-2008, 02:23 AM   #7
BattleMage!
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

Knowledge is gained by participation as much as by observation. How can you claim to allow free knowledge (allowing non-donators to see the forums) but charge people to participate?

Why do you think the wisest people tend to be the oldest? Because wisdom is acquired by doing as much as it is by watching. They've lived, they've watched, and they done. Charging people to post is charging people to ask questions. It is charging them to learn. It is charging them for the information you pretend is free.

I sure hope those in power reconsider.

Last edited by BattleMage!; 11-22-2008 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 11-22-2008, 02:32 AM   #8
SoulSuspect
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

I know the meaning to life and I am charging $10000 if you want the answer.
If you cant afford it ,just make some down payments and you will get a letter or a word here and there. I am also charging $10 to meet God. Whose down?

One
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:45 AM   #9
Consciousness
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

The simple truth seems to be either Bill & Kerry receive sufficient funding or we run the risk of losing PC and or PA.

Subscriptions are proposed to allow for sufficient funds to continue the video interviews we all love to see, (and I personally think it is far superior to that of a less costly web cam set up) agreed?

OK,

However I do find myself in general agreement with the principle of this thread, I mean yes I can see the benefits of paid membership if it includes things like an internet chat with a whistle blower or two or perhaps the facility to email the WB's during the actual interviews (how cool would that be?) ...... In fact if subscriptions include those facilities count me in, principles can come and go right?

But seriously folks...... Maybe as soon as the PC/PA merchandise hits the internet shelves we should all buy the heck out of it, that way the profits gained may just negate the need to impose the Avalon subscription.

A further suggestion is for Camelot to announce a target figure (or a representative target meter) for each new proposed project, that way those who can afford to donate or to buy more merchandise can do so, thereby ensuring each projects fund is met, and everyone keeps the same rights of access.

The power of suggestion is intended.

Namaste
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Old 11-22-2008, 04:23 AM   #10
Dean Plejaren
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

In this situation making people pay to post here is like making an organization to help homeless people for instance and then charging the homeless people to keep the organization running. It's just, self contradicting.

The entire project is about giving people a voice to be herd and providing communication and information. Sure you need to make money out of it but in a balanced way. It's fair to charge for some information you gather. But it isn't fair to charge more for a forum than the forum costs to run. You can even have 4 times as much as the forum cost to run just as a thank you. Beyond a healthy return for the effort made it's getting immoral. And a subscription charge would produce over 100 times more than what the forum costs to run and that becomes unbalanced.

If the PC work is in danger that is because you have being giving it out for free! It's worth more than that and now it seems to be in danger because of no balance achieved. You can only give so much....Until the laws of nature take that ability away because not being willing to receive what you need to continue. Now they are going to react by attempting to use something else the Avalon forum so they may continue giving other work out for free. That is an unusual approach and I don't think it will hold up.

I am convinced all the supporters energy that is behind Bill and Kerry is way more than enough to help the work continue, and so I don't think it's needed to resort to overcharging for this forum to have the work exist, and I think that is detrimental to achieving a balance in the long term. Even a fund raiser is better than a subscription and that is proved by all those in the other thread that were willing to give more money than the actual subscription cost, just to stop it happening!

If you are listening to the people who support this cause who are discerningly useful you would find another more balanced way to channel their support so you may continue, rather than going against a majority of supporters by making a decision they do not find appealing. A decision which is clearly a mistake.

Last edited by Dean Plejaren; 11-22-2008 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 11-22-2008, 05:27 AM   #11
isotelesis
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Wink Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

The original purpose of Avalon is to assist members in finding others to enable self-organizing communities. Times are tough, a dollar a month isn't much to ask, it costs money to host these sites. They have both gone out of their way, investing their own time and money for the benefit of others, there are many researchers out there who sell merchandise to sustain their efforts. Chipping in is part of what makes a community sustainable you know.
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Old 11-22-2008, 11:29 AM   #12
milk and honey
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

A declaration of commitment has been made to keep Project Camelot Interviews free for the 'benefit of humanity'. The suggested motive by the founders of PC is that this information belongs to no-one and therefore should be free to everyone.

The same could as easily be said for Project Avalon and PC Forums and in my opinion -- if it is a contest between which website should pay the costs of PC research -- then the Forums are more worthy candidates for a 'free for all' philosophy simply because everyone here contributes freely to them.

If the discussion forums remain 'free' (barring our own time and effort) and if instead a modest fee was applied to the Project Camelot interviews (say, $1.00 per view up to 90 days from the date presented) then people using the forums would have a huge incentive to keep up to date with the PC research because it would enable interested parties to intelligently contribute to forum discussions relating to it. For forum viewers, there should be no financial or philosophical barriers to joining the discussion.

Importantly, the 'pay per view' model would give discerning forum members the personal power to decide whether or not a particular PC interview is "essential information for the benefit of humanity" by choosing the paypal button, or not. After reading the posts on a busy discussion forum right here (busy because it's free) some may decide to go back and view it after all. Newcomers to the PC website could first get some indication of value by freely perusing the archives.

Given that members are responsible for the volume and quality of the content here at the forums, i agree that it could be career suicide to go down the proposed path of subscription. The minimum one dollar per month is not much for most 'westerners' but for reasons stated, the price is not the main issue.

What is the product and where is it? The Project Camelot Interviews, at the PC website.

The Interviews are considered core to the PC / PA juggernaut. They are, but so are the viewers who provide balance for the forums by providing important critical analyses of the PC content. We decide what is true or not and how to apply truth in our lives. With or without the PC interviews we are responsible for changing ourselves and our world. We are the 'body' of the necessary work at hand and to each of us Project Camelot can be seen for what it's worth as just one of Shiva's many sword wielding 'arms' -- Notwithstanding the disinfo it obviously contains and which must be discerned if the truth is to have any value other than just sugar coating to the main payload of disinfo.

Granted, Project Avalon is supposed to be purely a repository of shared information and a conduit for so called "ground crews" to connect and prepare for a better future. But it - and PC Forum - are places for discussion and wherever that happens there can be no pre-suppostion of inviolate "truths". Therefore, these venues for discussion are essential to the process of distilling the truth from PC Interviews - and other important sources - and because everyone contributes to that distillation it should remain free to all.

The difficult question about how to fund the PC interviews, if resolved in favour of the current proposal to charge forum posters, will most likely result in cutting off the 'body' of Shiva (who could just as easily support Project Camelot with pay per view) to save an 'arm'.

Last edited by milk and honey; 11-22-2008 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 11-22-2008, 11:49 AM   #13
Dean Plejaren
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

Milk and honey,
You said this way better than I could explain it. Well done....
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:15 PM   #14
Karen
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

The decision has been made. Bill and Kerry have heard every argument against it a bazillion times. They looked at all the options, looked at all the feedback and now this is their decision, which from day one, they said would probably happen. The subscription page is being designed and the plans are progressing, are you?

If you say you donít have the money,
Then we say there will be gift memberships.
If you say you donít want to ask for charity,
Then we say you can help out.
You can be a moderator, a researcher Ö
your imagination is the only limit.
Look around this forum and http://projectcamelot.org.
Imagine what skills you have to give a hand Ö
Send me a PM.

If you object based on the principle of the matter,
Well, then maybe it will have to be goodbye.
You will be missed.

If you have info to share
and you refuse to participate in the subscription fee
or are a whistleblower, send an email to
support@projectcamelot.org

These are the options, now move along Avalonians, move along.
The decision is final.

But if you still feel a need to vent go ahead and get it out ...
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:17 PM   #15
christopherthomson
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

It may go against the philosophy of Project Camelot, but when you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, are you still going to hold to your dogmas?

I think if the people who use this forum have an investment in it, no matter how small, the quality of their use will improve. It will exclude the useful idiots who are latching onto the ears of the enlightened, and allow for a more organised discourse. It does not matter if you hold to ideals of freedom or chaos, availability and access, for this forum's PURPOSE to be achieved, the muddy waters need to be cleaned.

One question that needs to be addressed: When the forum becomes subscription based, how will the psy-op agents be dealt with? They will have no problem getting the money for subscription, and once they have paid, will they not find it easier to sway opinion in a forum where trust between members is increased (through the membership mentality)?
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:36 PM   #16
milk and honey
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

I hope that all the threads devoted to this question of 'subscription' are not destroyed but rather kept as a part of the PA archive. From a philosophical standpoint it has been an important sharing of views, not merely a base venting of frustration.
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:50 PM   #17
milk and honey
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen View Post
The decision has been made. Bill and Kerry have heard every argument against it a bazillion times. They looked at all the options, looked at all the feedback and now this is their decision, which from day one, they said would probably happen. The subscription page is being designed and the plans are progressing, are you?

If you say you donít have the money,
Then we say there will be gift memberships.
If you say you donít want to ask for charity,
Then we say you can help out.
You can be a moderator, a researcher Ö
your imagination is the only limit.
Look around this forum and http://projectcamelot.org.
Imagine what skills you have to give a hand Ö
Send me a PM.

If you object based on the principle of the matter,
Well, then maybe it will have to be goodbye.
You will be missed.

If you have info to share
and you refuse to participate in the subscription fee
or are a whistleblower, send an email to
support@projectcamelot.org

These are the options, now move along Avalonians, move along.
The decision is final.

But if you still feel a need to vent go ahead and get it out ...
My last word on the subject...

With respect, your post misses the points Karen.

1) We all have "info to share" right here on the forum. No need to email PA about it.

2) The suggestion to make some other kind of contribution to PC/PA misses the point that a contibution is already being made by our participation here.

3) Asking someone else to pay the subscription fee for us is no solution just like asking someone else to pay fines for breaching an unjust law is no solution to that.

I have no hard feelings about it. Just keeping the issues straight.
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Old 11-22-2008, 01:50 PM   #18
Dean Plejaren
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

Milk and honey you did a superb job at clarifying yourself and pointing it all out. I don't think any hard feelings are apparent at all.

Last edited by Dean Plejaren; 11-23-2008 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:03 AM   #19
MaskMarvl
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen View Post
The decision has been made. Bill and Kerry have heard every argument against it a bazillion times. They looked at all the options, looked at all the feedback and now this is their decision, which from day one, they said would probably happen. The subscription page is being designed and the plans are progressing, are you?

These are the options, now move along Avalonians, move along.
The decision is final.

But if you still feel a need to vent go ahead and get it out ...
I guess it's a lost battle then, and like I said in another thread:

If it's true that the majority of the current members are against the subscription concept (mainly based on principal), then I suggest that all who oppose this idea to simply "stand-by" and not pay the fee, a sort of " workers' strike" if you will.... Or in this case, a "posters' strike"

We can take it from there... see what develops.

Maybe this way we can get B & K to reconsider the other options.

P.S. (for the record, I didn't appreciate the "move along" remark as if you were hearding sheep)

Last edited by MaskMarvl; 11-23-2008 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:13 AM   #20
David
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

It always amazes me to see people who want to have something for nothing. I could make a hit song with all the blues singing here.


Last edited by David; 11-23-2008 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:23 AM   #21
Karen
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

Quote:
Originally Posted by milk and honey View Post
I hope that all the threads devoted to this question of 'subscription' are not destroyed but rather kept as a part of the PA archive. From a philosophical standpoint it has been an important sharing of views, not merely a base venting of frustration.
As far as I know, there is no plan to destroy any more threads or posts on this forum. I know a couple of deleted threads happened by accident, and a failsafe has now been installed to prevent future events of that type. I believe there are still a lot in a holding bin to be sorted out and I have advocated for them to be released back into the forum without further time used to sort them. Yes, and I feel unfortunately so, some threads were deleted because the original goal was for this to be a great repository of resources for people, and some were judged not to fit that criteria. I advocated for no deleting of anything (except the spammers of ads and porn) and that is the view now expressed in Kerry's post yesterday.

So do not fear, I think the deleting has been stopped.

Karen
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:31 AM   #22
Karen
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaskMarvl View Post
P.S. (for the record, I didn't appreciate the "move along" remark as if you were hearding sheep)
Thank you for the feedback on my attempt at a little lightness and humor on the situation, and I really mean that and will take it into consideration in the future. The tune of the song popped into my head and made me giggle - I even took out the word "little." OK, I give myself a D in the comedian category. I do truly apologize. I try so hard not to be offensive and it takes me quite some time to write posts. I am trying to give people the answers to the questions that everyone is asking and no one else is answering.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:50 AM   #23
MaskMarvl
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen View Post
Thank you for the feedback on my attempt at a little lightness and humor on the situation, and I really mean that and will take it into consideration in the future. The tune of the song popped into my head and made me giggle - I even took out the word "little." OK, I give myself a D in the comedian category. I do truly apologize. I try so hard not to be offensive and it takes me quite some time to write posts. I am trying to give people the answers to the questions that everyone is asking and no one else is answering.
I guess I didn't get the "joke" since I don't know what song you're refering to...

In any case, no hard feelings...
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Old 11-23-2008, 06:13 AM   #24
KathyT
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

I never knew about the Avalon for a few months after I started listening to the interviews. And when I did hear about it, I thought it was to support the "ground crew".

That concept, is people helping people. If new people that come along have to "pay" to post an urgent message to begin participating among the "ground crews", it is going to restrict their access and needs.

I suggest that any new 'member' be given a month of free introductory time to begin to participate in the forum.

Anyone with a little knowledge of the forum, or someone with a month's introduction, will then know whether they're staying or not.

It is going to make quite a few people drop, that I anticipate. I actually think advertising would probably bring in more revenue and wonder why that hasn't been tried.
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Old 11-23-2008, 06:15 AM   #25
Karen
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Default Re: Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

Quote:
Originally Posted by milk and honey View Post
My last word on the subject...

With respect, your post misses the points Karen.

1) We all have "info to share" right here on the forum. No need to email PA about it.

2) The suggestion to make some other kind of contribution to PC/PA misses the point that a contibution is already being made by our participation here.

3) Asking someone else to pay the subscription fee for us is no solution just like asking someone else to pay fines for breaching an unjust law is no solution to that.

I have no hard feelings about it. Just keeping the issues straight.
Yes, I did miss those points in my post, because there is nothing more I can do to advocate for them. I do have them written upon my heart. I have a stack of papers an inch high on notes about how to improve avalon. I noted almost everyone's comments on the subscription fee and had a chat with Bill about people's best objections, some of which you list above. I tried to advocate for an all out and proper fund raiser. After listening to Bill's responses I decided that to take it any further felt like sabotage to their plans already in the works.

I talked to Kerry on the phone earlier about a new moderating strategy that is more gentle and kind and is based on discussions with members when a problem is perceived and that the deletion of posts and threads was really upsetting a lot of people. She announced her vision of how the forum should be run the next morning.

I am a 9 on the Ennegram, the top point, and I can see all sides of an argument, but making decisions on something is very difficult. After my chat with Bill, I decided to accept their choice and do what I can to help it succeed. I think the forum will be OK,

I am the one with my ear to ground listening to the complaints and questions, and taking note of them, even before i became a moderator here. Anyone can PM me, for I cannot read the entire forum and will miss many of them that are posted here and there.

I am posting this as information for everyone, not just you, Milk and Honey. So many questions have never been answered. I hope people will look at the concepts/ideas and nobody pick's at my choice of words, I have been at this post for a long time now. And I wanted you to know I did try for the option you want ... I am not trying to argue with anyone about this. I just had to go with the fact that their decision is final and was the original intent that I read when I came here on the first day it was created. I think many who came along later missed that.

Karen
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