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Old 11-24-2008, 01:25 PM   #1
Jacqui D
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Default Is our earth flat or round?

Do they really think the earth is flat?

Photos such as this one are deemed fakes by flat-earthers

By Brendan O'Neill


In the 21st Century, the term "flat-earther" is used to describe someone who is spectacularly - and seemingly wilfully - ignorant. But there is a group of people who claim they believe the planet really is flat. Are they really out there or is it all an elaborate prank?

Nasa is celebrating its 50th birthday with much fanfare and pictures of past glories. But in half a century of extraordinary images of space, one stands out.

WORLD VIEW
330 BC Aristotle provides evidence of spherical earth
240 BC Eratosthenes of Cyrene accurately calculates circumference of globe
8th Century AD work by Bede shows acceptance of sphere idea

On 24 December 1968, the crew of the Apollo 8 mission took a photo now known as Earthrise. To many, this beautiful blue sphere viewed from the moon's orbit is a perfect visual summary of why it is right to strive to go into space.

Not to everybody though. There are people who say they think this image is fake - part of a worldwide conspiracy by space agencies, governments and scientists.

Welcome to the world of the flat-earther.

Our attitude towards those who once upon a time believed in the flatness of the earth is apparent in a new Microsoft advert.
One rendition of what a flat earth might look like

Depicting an olden-days ship sailing on rough seas, presumably heading towards the "edge of the world", the advert is part of a $300m campaign aimed at rescuing the reputation of Windows Vista by comparing its critics to flat-earthers.

Satellite era

But are there any genuine flat-earthers left? Surely in our era of space exploration - where satellites take photos of our blue and clearly globular planet from space, and robots send back info about soil and water from Mars - no one can seriously still believe that the Earth is flat?

Circumnavigation is a case of travelling in a very broad circle across the surface of the Earth

James McIntyre
Flat-earther

Wrong.

Flat earth theory is still around. On the internet and in small meeting rooms in Britain and the US, flat earth believers get together to challenge the "conspiracy" that the Earth is round.

"People are definitely prejudiced against flat-earthers," says John Davis, a flat earth theorist based in Tennessee, reacting to the new Microsoft commercial.

"Many use the term 'flat-earther' as a term of abuse, and with connotations that imply blind faith, ignorance or even anti-intellectualism."

Mr Davis, a 25-year-old computer scientist originally from Canada, first became interested in flat earth theory after "coming across some literature from the Flat Earth Society a few years ago".

"I came to realise how much we take at face value," he says. "We humans seem to be pleased with just accepting what we are told, no matter how much it goes against our senses."

Mr Davis now believes "the Earth is flat and horizontally infinite - it stretches horizontally forever".

"And it is at least 9,000 kilometres deep", he adds.

James McIntyre, a British-based moderator of a Flat Earth Society discussion website, has a slightly different take. "The Earth is, more or less, a disc," he states. "Obviously it isn't perfectly flat thanks to geological phenomena like hills and valleys. It is around 24,900 miles in diameter."

Mr McIntyre, who describes himself as having been "raised a globularist in the British state school system", says the reactions of his friends and family to his new beliefs vary from "sheer incredulity to the conviction that it's all just an elaborate joke".

So how many flat-earthers are around today? Neither Mr Davis nor Mr McIntyre can say.

Disappearing ships

Mr McIntyre estimates "there are thousands", but "without a platform for communication, a head-count is almost impossible", he says. Mr Davis says he is currently creating an "online information repository" to help to bring together local Flat Earth communities into a "global community".

"If you will forgive my use of the term 'global'", he says.


And for the casual observer, it is hard to accept that all of this is not some bizarre 21st Century jape. After all, most schoolchildren know that ships can disappear over the horizon, that satellites orbit the earth and that if you head along the equator you will eventually come back on yourself.

What about all the photos from space that show, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the Earth is round? "The space agencies of the world are involved in an international conspiracy to dupe the public for vast profit," says Mr McIntyre.

John Davis also says "these photos are fake".

And what about the fact that no one has ever fallen off the edge of our supposedly disc-shaped world?

Mr McIntyre laughs. "This is perhaps one of the most commonly asked questions," he says. "A cursory examination of a flat earth map fairly well explains the reason - the North Pole is central, and Antarctica comprises the entire circumference of the Earth. Circumnavigation is a case of travelling in a very broad circle across the surface of the Earth."

Ultimate conspiracy

Mr Davis says that being a flat-earther doesn't have an impact on how one lives every day. "As a rule of thumb, we don't have any fears of aircraft or other modes of transportation," he says.

Christine Garwood, author of Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea, is not surprised that flat-earthers simply write off the evidence that our planet is globular.

"Flat earth theory is one of the ultimate conspiracy theories," she says.

"Naturally, flat earth believers think that the moon landings were faked, as were the photographs of earth from space."


Perhaps one of the most surprising things in Garwood's book is her revelation that flat earth theory is a relatively modern phenomenon.

Ms Garwood says it is an "historic fallacy" that everyone from ancient times to the Dark Ages believed the earth to be flat, and were only disabused of this "mad idea" once Christopher Columbus successfully sailed to America without "falling off the edge of the world".

In fact, people have known since at least the 4th century BC that the earth is round, and the pseudo-scientific conviction that we actually live on a disc didn't emerge until Victorian times.

Theories about the earth being flat really came to the fore in 19th Century England. With the rise and rise of scientific rationalism, which seemed to undermine Biblical authority, some Christian thinkers decided to launch an attack on established science.

Samuel Birley Rowbotham (1816-1884) assumed the pseudonym of "Parallax" and founded a new school of "Zetetic astronomy". He toured England arguing that the Earth was a stationary disc and the Sun was only 400 miles away.

In the 1870s, Christian polemicist John Hampden wrote numerous works about the Earth being flat, and described Isaac Newton as "in liquor or insane".

And the spirit of these attacks lives on to the present day. The flat-earth myth remains the outlandish king in the realm of the conspiracy theorist.

And while we all respect a degree of scepticism towards the authorities, says Ms Garwood, the flat-earthers show things can go too far.

"It is always good to question 'how we know what we know', but it is also good to have the ability to accept compelling evidence - such as the photographs of Earth from space."



-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for your comments. A selection appears below.

The closest geometric shape to describe the earth has got to be an oblate spheroid. Which roughly means a slightly flattened round thing. So the earth is both flat and round.
Nick L, Cirencester, UK

It's interesting actually, this isn't the first time I've heard of a conspiracy like this. It is of course scientifically impossible. How does a flat object manage to be dark and light at the same time? Its impossible surely. If you take a CD, try and make the same side both hot and cold, dark and light and all points in between. It can't be done, try and do the same to a ball and suddenly it is possible. Next they will be telling us that the sun circles earth.
Mike Nash, Birmingham, England

How do "flat-earthers" explain lunar eclipses?
Erin Walsh, Newtownards, Northern Ireland

There are two points to be made here. First, the modern flat earth society has not always insisted that the photographs from space were fakes. In the 1950s, after membership had dropped by two-thirds when the first pictures from the satellites were published, the die-hards came back with a hypothesis that the aerial view of the earth had been distorted by 'invisible and undetectable bodies' which refracted the light in such a way that it appeared spherical. It was only with the moon landings that they added the conspiracy theory that this had all taken place in the Nevada desert.

The second and more important point is that this article misrepresents the history of the theory, rejecting one extreme - the idea that everyone until Columbus believed the earth to be flat, which is patent nonsense; to replace it with an equally implausible extreme, the idea that virtually the whole of western Christendom was perfectly well aware that the earth was a sphere, with exceptions such as the atypical 'cranks' like Lactantius and Cosmas of Alexandria. It simply is not true that there were no flat earth beliefs among the educated classes, and certainly not true that it was all but dead by the Middle Ages.
Mark Tebbit, Reading

If the earth was flat as suggested by these "theorists", a plane flying from Santiago (Chile) to Sydney (Australia) would have to cross Mexico and California before reaching its destination. Having spent many hours on that route, I can assure the world that it doesn't. The world is not a flat disc. Period.
Alex Williams, London

The flat-earth theory of the planet being a disc can be proven false quite easily. Simply get a satellite photo of the South Pole showing Antarctica as one landmass surrounded by water.

Oh wait, they don't trust satellite photos. But they do trust aircraft. The reason planes fly routes in arcs is because this is the shortest and most efficient route on a curved sphere. Simply show that the distance/fuel consumption between two points in the Northern Hemisphere is roughly the same as between two points in the Southern Hemisphere.

For example, the distance between Rio de Janeiro and Cape Town is 3775 miles, and the distance from New York to London is 3470 miles. If the disc theory was correct, it would be something like 4x as far between the Southern Hemisphere cities, since you'd have to traverse the two points further from the center of the disc (ie the North Pole). Mr Davis can even fly the plane if he wants!

But, I forgot, logic has already failed these people. Why should this be any different?
Matt, NYC, US








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Old 11-24-2008, 01:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

Flat?

There are folks who think the world is flat still? h#### #### ##### !

Even at 40 thousand feet the curve is very visible.... no. I refuse to sit and waste words of people that are not living in dense rain forests with stone age tools for survival but still think the worlds flat...
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Old 11-24-2008, 02:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

I brought this up a week ago when people were talking about Hollow Earth Theory.

One recurring theme between Flat Earth Theorists, Hollow Earth Theorists, Global Conspiracy Theorists etc, etc is their unerring ability to think "do not take things we are told at face value, don't just accept what you are told if it goes against your senses".

Now its fair enough to think like that, and certainly in some areas you need to look deeper than you are told, but also in some areas what you are told is actual FACT with no agenda behind it.

But the trouble with the "do not take things at face value, do not automatically accept what you are told" mentality is that it can take over your mindset and suddenly you believe ANYTHING that opposes the mainstream view on ANY subject.

All it takes is for somebody to suggest that pics of the spherical Earth are faked (by PTB), and offer a bit of pseudo science as evidence of flat earth, and believers are born.

Basically gullible people with the right mindset.

I see no difference between Flat Earth, Hollow Earth and many other highly unlikely theories, then people say to me "you're negative and narrow minded". No, I don't think so.
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Old 11-24-2008, 03:26 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

I am afraid of this radicalism. But it is different to a hollow earth theory. Hollow earth makes sense while flat earth does not.

Even though I naturally find it hilarious anyone would be serious the earth is flat. I still want to take them seriously because I only care about sensible things so if they have reason to believe it then lets think about it and give them a chance.

First when you look at the moon and sun. Why is it round then? If the moon and sun is round there's a good chance planets are round. And it's unlikely that both moon and sun would be facing the right way if it was a flat disc.

From first hand experience this is sadly the only evidence I can offer and it is circumstantial.

I have not gone out of my way to know for sure. Let me think about it...
Lets say any photo can be faked although it's probably unlikely. Lets say all photo are unreliable.

I have never flown in a plane in a straight line so I can't say anything about that either.

I lack the means to prove it from first hand experience. The good thing is I am able to know that. Others don't know the difference between first hand experience and what is passed on to them from sources not fool proof.

It's safe to assume for me the world is round and hollow. I could be wrong. For now that's what the information is telling me.

From first hand experience that's all I can say about it.

Now I'm curious how to prove it to myself actually.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Joe View Post
I brought this up a week ago when people were talking about Hollow Earth Theory.

One recurring theme between Flat Earth Theorists, Hollow Earth Theorists, Global Conspiracy Theorists etc, etc is their unerring ability to think "do not take things we are told at face value, don't just accept what you are told if it goes against your senses".

Now its fair enough to think like that, and certainly in some areas you need to look deeper than you are told, but also in some areas what you are told is actual FACT with no agenda behind it.

But the trouble with the "do not take things at face value, do not automatically accept what you are told" mentality is that it can take over your mindset and suddenly you believe ANYTHING that opposes the mainstream view on ANY subject.

All it takes is for somebody to suggest that pics of the spherical Earth are faked (by PTB), and offer a bit of pseudo science as evidence of flat earth, and believers are born.

Basically gullible people with the right mindset.

I see no difference between Flat Earth, Hollow Earth and many other highly unlikely theories, then people say to me "you're negative and narrow minded". No, I don't think so.
Well said, and reasoning that is very applicable to many other against-the-mainstream claims. I'll go one further and say that the flat/hollow Earthers have almost a disinformation/discreditation flavor about their work.
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Old 11-24-2008, 03:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

LOL yes of course it's flat. You don't walk in circles,do you? LOL
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Old 11-24-2008, 03:39 PM   #7
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I just realized something now that you say that.....It could be both and neither and one and the other.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:02 PM   #8
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Onto Hollow Earth Theory, would anybody out there like to give me an explanation of how a planet could actually form.....hollow! Every common sense thing I know tells me that it would not be possible for a forming spinning new planet to form hollow. It would just fill itself in as it span and cooled.

I'm not discounting the theory that the core may not be iron, as in popular theory, but the way I see it, the sphere that we stand on has to be solid. Whatever is in the core, I'd stick my neck out and say its not empty space.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:24 PM   #9
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The basic thing behind it being hollow is this.....

The lava exists heated by something, what heats it? An inside sun. A sun can't exist with an iron core or without space inside from the crust. How could lava stay hot forever without a heat source inside....

Last edited by Dean Plejaren; 11-24-2008 at 04:50 PM. Reason: left the word 'without' out
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:30 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

The Earth may be round but our universe err multiverse is flat.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html


he shape of the universe is determined by a struggle between the momentum of expansion and the pull of gravity. The rate of expansion is expressed by the Hubble Constant, Ho, while the strength of gravity depends on the density and pressure of the matter in the universe. If the pressure of the matter is low, as is the case with most forms of matter we know of, then the fate of the universe is governed by the density. If the density of the universe is less than the "critical density" which is proportional to the square of the Hubble constant, then the universe will expand forever. If the density of the universe is greater than the "critical density", then gravity will eventually win and the universe will collapse back on itself, the so called "Big Crunch". However, the results of the WMAP mission and observations of distant supernova have suggested that the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating which implies the existence of a form of matter with a strong negative pressure, such as the cosmological constant. This strange form of matter is also sometimes referred to as the "dark energy". If dark energy in fact plays a significant role in the evolution of the universe, then in all likelihood the universe will continue to expand forever.




The density of the universe also determines its geometry. If the density of the universe exceeds the critical density, then the geometry of space is closed and positively curved like the surface of a sphere. This implies that initially parallel photon paths converge slowly, eventually cross, and return back to their starting point (if the universe lasts long enough). If the density of the universe is less than the critical density, then the geometry of space is open, negatively curved like the surface of a saddle. If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a sheet of paper. Thus, there is a direct link between the geometry of the universe and its fate.

The simplest version of the inflationary theory, an extension of the Big Bang theory, predicts that the density of the universe is very close to the critical density, and that the geometry of the universe is flat, like a sheet of paper. That is the result confirmed by the WMAP science.
Measurements from WMAP

The WMAP spacecraft can measure the basic parameters of the Big Bang theory including the geometry of the universe. If the universe were open, the brightest microwave background fluctuations (or "spots") would be about half a degree across. If the universe were flat, the spots would be about 1 degree across. While if the universe were closed, the brightest spots would be about 1.5 degrees across.

Recent measurements (c. 2001) by a number of ground-based and balloon-based experiments, including MAT/TOCO, Boomerang, Maxima, and DASI, have shown that the brightest spots are about 1 degree across. Thus the universe was known to be flat to within about 15% accuracy prior to the WMAP results. WMAP has confirmed this result with very high accuracy and precision. We now know that the universe is flat with only a 2% margin of error.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:33 PM   #11
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Wheres' the edge

WTF


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Old 11-24-2008, 04:46 PM   #12
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One more thing AJ has anyone witnessed a mass of energy evolve itself into a solid ball? Never. Anything that condenses does so from outside In. Mass does not start condensing from the center. It gathers from the outside. The last place it would ever condense is therefore the center. A sun could easily attract around itself during it's evolution a mass of energy that would then form into a planet.
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 777 The Great Work View Post
Wheres' the edge

WTF

To be fair, where's the edge if the Universe is a sphere or cube? What is past the edge? Its all pretty mind boggling really.
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Joe View Post
To be fair, where's the edge if the Universe is a sphere or cube? What is past the edge? Its all pretty mind boggling really.
Some times we forget that all of this is inside of us and not outside.They are all concepts and ideas that are shaped by whatever we imagine.The imagination is infinite.

I'm pretty sure if there wasn't a hollow earth,there is one now because we imagine it.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:52 AM   #15
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I wish I could see Average Joes face when he reads the article posted by Jacqui D.

I like to stay more with what we can know for certain and that article is going out there on a limb it may be someones active imagination working overtime or more dis-information. Something tells me that article is not reliable.
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Old 11-25-2008, 01:24 AM   #16
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

what if the definition of FLAT means LINEAR? if that were the case, then there wouldn't be an argument
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Old 11-25-2008, 09:16 AM   #17
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Wrong thread.

Last edited by Average Joe; 11-25-2008 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 11-25-2008, 10:59 AM   #18
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

Well I think it's a round solid lump
But some people actually think it's square
I was looking to find out if Glastonbury was one of the four corners of the earth and found this site http://pw1.netcom.com/~rogermw/square_earth.html
They seem to be evil religious types

Quote:
Frequently Asked Questions

"Can I believe in the round Earth and still get into heaven?"
No. As you know, if you do not accept every word in the bible as literally true, you are not really accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and are doomed to burn in Hell for all eternity. God won't let any half-assed believers into heaven.

"What about all those pictures from space, showing that the Earth is round?"


Just more proof that Hollywood is in league with the devil.

"How come no airline pilots have ever reported seeing the edges of the Earth?"


Airline pilots are also in league with the devil.




Anyone writing rubbish like this would go to hell if there was such a place
Some poor idiots are stupid enough to believe this cr@p, even worst others must be telling their kids this is how it is.



Quote:
EARTH SQUARE!

Got a problem with any of this? Are you an unbelieving heathen who believes the world has round edges or — God help you — might even be spherical? Then contact me at: rogermw@ix.netcom.com and I will pray for the redemption of your obviously misguided and hell-bound soul.
What a twat

Last edited by Swanny; 11-25-2008 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
I'm pretty sure if there wasn't a hollow earth,there is one now because we imagine it.
When a critical mass of us believe in something...so shall it be.

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Old 11-25-2008, 08:52 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

let me do a translation for everybody sake. "Flat-earthers" = naive dumb asses & probably obama supporters.
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:36 AM   #21
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

In the illusion of humanness, the earth appears spherical, and behaves flat. In reality, it is neither rounded nor flat.
The earth revolves around the sun at blistering speed of approx. six thousand mph, yet we do not feel a thing.
We live in Australia which is litterally down under this sphere, yet we feel like we are standing on top of a flat surface.
In terms of the earth being hollow, and housing the biblical garden of eden, and Columbus's "Eldorado, the city of gold", the death bed confession of Olaf Jansen, the norweigan fisherman who puportedly sailed into the hollow earth in the company of his father, makes a compelling argument.

http://www.ourhollowearth.com/PartOn...mpet::trumpet:
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Old 11-27-2008, 09:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: Is our earth flat or round?

The world only exists in the minds of those creating it - round, square, flat, it really does not matter a bit.
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Old 11-26-2008, 07:33 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swanny View Post
Well I think it's a round solid lump
But some people actually think it's square
I was looking to find out if Glastonbury was one of the four corners of the earth and found this site http://pw1.netcom.com/~rogermw/square_earth.html
They seem to be evil religious types


Anyone writing rubbish like this would go to hell if there was such a place
Some poor idiots are stupid enough to believe this cr@p, even worst others must be telling their kids this is how it is.





What a twat
Am I the only person that can see the Q&A is clearly written as a joke?

Hellloooooo? Anybody there? Anybody? Hello, hel, hel? Anybody?

FFS you lot will soak anything up like a sponge and take it as serious.
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:07 PM   #24
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The basic thing behind it being hollow is this.....

The lava exists heated by something, what heats it? An inside sun. A sun can't exist with an iron core or without space inside from the crust. How could lava stay hot forever without a heat source inside....
The basic fact as I know it, and I'm waiting to be corrected here, is that it is pretty much impossible for a planet to form hollow.

You can theorise all you want about it must have an inner sun surrounded by space and how could the lava stay hot etc, but until we can see a way how the earth could have even formed hollow then there is no point even talking about inner suns etc.

Also, lava is hot as we know. If you follow the hollow earth theory, then you have...inner sun, empty space, earths crust. So, the lava which by the way is many thousands of degrees, must be within the earths crust right?

The inner sun would have to be very, very hot to heat the lava contained within the earths crust, this heat would have to radiate first of all through the empty space before even warming the crust, thus killing everything within the hollow earth space by incineration.

And lets face it, the ONLY reason people support hollow earth theory is to add some credence to fantasies of civilisations in the hollow earth.
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
The inner sun would have to be very, very hot to heat the lava contained within the earths crust, this heat would have to radiate first of all through the empty space before even warming the crust, thus killing everything within the hollow earth space by incineration.
Not if it's like the outside weather system where you have a delicate balance going on in which things flow and operate under. There could be areas within the crust heated and other areas not. Just like on the surface with the outside sun. The heat from the lava could simply be exactly like the ocean system where the temperature is kept over long periods from consistency.

The sun may not be that hot, but it's consistency and placement keeps life flowing in a delicate balance initiating the volcanic activity, and allowing other things within the earth to thrive to keep all this in balance.

Also, oceans temperatures rising in recent times. As well as the volcanic activity, could be attributed to the central sun solar flares.

Quote:
And lets face it, the ONLY reason people support hollow earth theory is to add some credence to fantasies of civilisations in the hollow earth.
They may not be just imaginative fantasy a lot of myth is often based on things factual at the core of it.
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