US military chief makes unannounced visit to Pakistan

[Zarathustra]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...cle=1&catnum=2

US military chief makes unannounced visit to Pakistan

Sep 16 01:09 PM US/Eastern


Chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Michael Mullen, arrived in Pakistan on an unannounced visit Tuesday to discuss operations underway on the Afghanistan frontier with Pakistan's leaders, the Pentagon said.
"He will meet with Prime Minister (Yousuf Raza) Gilani and General (Ashfaq) Kayani to discuss ongoing operations in the border region with Afghanistan," the office of the Joint Chiefs told AFP, without elaborating.

The visit comes against a backdrop of tension between the two allies. Islamabad has vowed to defend itself against violations of its air space and incursions by US forces in Afghanistan, after a series of missile strikes blamed on US-led coalition forces left 38 people dead in Pakistan.

The Pentagon on Monday denied that US-led coalition helicopters based in Afghanistan were fired on in Pakistan and forced to turn back.

The incident "did not happen," said Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman, adding that after studying the facts, a statement by a Pakistani security official "didn't appear to be accurate."

Earlier there were conflicting reports that shots were fired when US-led coalition helicopters based in Afghanistan neared the border with Pakistan.

The gunfire was said to have broken out late Sunday about 100 meters (yards) from the South Waziristan tribal area, where Al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters are believed to be sheltering. There were no casualties.

"The US-led coalition troops in helicopters came close to the border and they tried to sneak into Pakistan territory but shots were fired by Pakistani troops and the coalition troops retreated," a Pakistani security official said.

But Whitman said in Washington: "I can't find any mission that correlates to the reports I saw."

"I can't find any report about helicopters being fired upon," he added.

The incident was also denied by Pakistan army's chief military spokesman, Major General Athar Abbas. "These reports are not correct," he said.

US Defense Secretary Robert Gates, meanwhile, arrived Tuesday to the Afghan capital for talks with coalition force commanders and President Hamid Karzai amid increasing concern about the Taliban insurgency.

Recent alleged US incursions into the area that have raised alarm in Pakistan have been welcomed by Afghanistan, which has for years said that more attention should be paid to extremist sanctuaries across the border.

[Rocky_Shorz]

If he leaves with an Agreement for Pakistan troops to join the Allies in Afghanistan... I'd feel much better knowing they don't want this mess to continue...

Ever get the feeling you are being watched?

whistles innocently and disappears...

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by Rocky_Shorz

If he leaves with an Agreement for Pakistan troops to join the Allies in Afghanistan... I'd feel much better knowing they don't want this mess to continue...

Ever get the feeling you are being watched?

whistles innocently and disappears...

I agree. If he leaves and the Pakistanis are still maintaining their border security, which they are allowed to do under international law, then that would show me that they have given Bush/Cheney "the finger".

[Rocky_Shorz]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

I agree. If he leaves and the Pakistanis are still maintaining their border security, which they are allowed to do under international law, then that would show me that they have given Bush/Cheney "the finger".

any updates yet out of the region?

[vega]

This is highly unusual. Robert gates and Mullen in Afganistan and Pakistan. Something did happen here and these two are here to sort things out so that the situation may not get out of hand.

We live in very dangerous times indeed.

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by vega

This is highly unusual. Robert gates and Mullen in Afganistan and Pakistan. Something did happen here and these two are here to sort things out so that the situation may not get out of hand.

We live in very dangerous times indeed.

Rocky,

Haven't seen anything yet.

Vega,

I agree that those two being over there at the same time is significant. If you look at other threads I've posted on concerning the Pakistan situation, you'll see my current threory elucidated. I think that Pakistan, pre Musharaff ouster, or leading to the ouster, decided they were no longer going to be American "lackeys" in the region. The Bush/Cheney cabal didn't take it seriously and perhaps even tested the resolve vis a vi sending troops across the Pakistani border. The Pakistani government responded strongly, and abracadabra - Gates and Mullen appear on the scene.

In my opinion, and this has not been born out by facts yet, is that there is a certain amount of "panic" involved, since the illegal (my opinion) occupation of Ahfganistan cannot continue without a willing stooge in Pakistan. Not to mention the fact that Pakistan is armed with nuclear weapons, not the ideal antagonist. My guess is that Gates and Mullen are staging an attempt to bring Pakistan "back into the fold". If that is the case I don't think it will work.

I also think that this relates to the Georgian conflict, and Russia's quick and successful defiance of Bush/Cheney/Israel, as well as the desire for Bush/Cheney/Israel to strike militarily against Iran.

See this article detailing the buildup of U.S. naval power in the region as a possible attack force - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/17/iran.usa

As I have expressed to Rocky, more needs to come out before this can be parsed more accurately, but this is my feeling thus far.

[Rocky_Shorz]

On Wednesday, after his meetings with Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and the Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the U.S. Embassy issued a brief statement that Admiral Mullen reiterated the U.S. commitment “to respect Pakistan’s sovereignty and to develop further U.S.-Pakistani cooperation and coordination on these critical issues that challenge the security and well-being of the people of both countries”.

Well, not much said, but a hint of what I was expecting...

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by Rocky_Shorz

Well, not much said, but a hint of what I was expecting...

That statement was followed by this...

Suspected US missile strike kills 6 in Pakistan
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080917/...as/as_pakistan

[Rocky_Shorz]

no military shots were fired, and that incident was followed by this...

NATO's ISAF head General David McKiernan is also expected to arrive today.

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by Rocky_Shorz

no military shots were fired, and that incident was followed by this...

True, but you can't fire at a cruise missle, at least effectively. Notice that no troops have crossed the border since the firefight yesterday, that we know of, of course. We also don't know the Pakistani feelings on that missle. Alert me if you hear anything, I'll do the same.

[Rocky_Shorz]

oh you can shoot at it...

but they didn't

I'll let you know if I see more

[Rocky_Shorz]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

That statement was followed by this...

Suspected US missile strike kills 6 in Pakistan
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080917/...as/as_pakistan

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=17350

PESHAWAR: Three out of seven people killed in Wednesday’s US drone attack on Baghar village of South Waziristan Agency included two Arabs, one of them a senior al-Qaeda commander, and one hailing from the Punjab.

Sources close to the tribal militants told this scribe that the two Arabs were identified as Jiran, the al-Qaeda commander, and Sabri while the name of the militant commander from the Punjab could not be ascertained.

A senior militant commander, who wished not to be named, said all the three men were sitting in a vehicle parked in front of a mud-built house in Baghar village near Angoor Adda when two US drones fired four Hellfire missiles, killing them and four others staying in the house.

He said Jiran was appointed as al-Qaeda’s operational commander for a particular region in Afghanistan when another senior al-Qaeda commander Abu Imam died in fighting with the US forces near Bagram in Afghanistan three months ago.

“Jiran was a senior operational commander and was mostly living in the border areas between Afghanistan and Pakistan. He used to change his locations due to continuous surveillance by the US spy planes on the border villages,” said the tribal militant commander.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=17349

“This is not a question of helplessness. We are allies and cooperating with the US. They (militants and terrorists) are not confined to Afghanistan alone. Their actions are moving from our tribal areas to our settled areas, into Islamabad and Lahore. We do not subscribe to their interpretation of Islam. They have damaged Islam. There are serious threat perspectives inside mainland US from these Taliban and al-Qaeda. We have to address these concerns. Also we feel that fighting with the military is not enough as we have to have a multi-pronged strategy to wean (the saner elements) from these extremists,” the minister explained.

However, to a query on what the rules of engagement with the US were, whether these were verbal or in writing and whether they would be made public, the minister replied: “This is a big concern for all of us. We will see whether these rules of engagement can be reviewed or not. My understanding is that no foreign troops are allowed to operate inside Pakistan and if any action is taken across the border, then it is for the Isaf and Nato troops to do so.”

[Zarathustra]

quotes

"Despite repeated protests lodged by President Asif Ali Zardari and Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani over non-stop US air strikes on Pakistani tribal villages, two American spy planes again entered South Waziristan on Thursday evening and were seen flying over the area till the filing of this report."

"Ahmadzai Wazir tribesmen, who have raised a tribal Lashkar to defend their frontiers against the foreign forces, were critical over the alleged silence of the Pakistani security forces based in old Sra Kanda fort, about a kilometre from the Baghar village, on US drones flying inside the Pakistani territory."

"As far as Admiral Mullen’s statement which he made on Wednesday regarding Pakistan’s sovereignty, Qureshi said: “I have to respect it. But later when there is another attack (the same day), it appears there is an institutional disconnect (within the US). They will have to sort it out.”"

"He said when he visits Washington for the strategic dialogue, he would formally give his honest assessment."

"My understanding is that no foreign troops are allowed to operate inside Pakistan and if any action is taken across the border, then it is for the Isaf and Nato troops to do so.”

[Rocky_Shorz]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

"My understanding is that no foreign troops are allowed to operate inside Pakistan and if any action is taken across the border, then it is for the Isaf and Nato troops to do so.”

In public he has to stand up and say it is wrong, but the non-actions by Pakistan's army is showing what their true stance is... He's no different than the leader of Syria, sitting on a powder keg with only a squirt gun to put out the burning fuses.

The Pakistan army is now coordinating with NATO on attacks inside of Pakistan. Which goes back to exactly what I said (about 10 threads ago, I couldn't even find it.. we don't need new threads for every update to the story... hint hint)

We had Drones flying over 15 villages today inside Pakistan without one shot fired...

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by Rocky_Shorz

In public he has to stand up and say it is wrong, but the non-actions by Pakistan's army is showing what their true stance is... He's no different than the leader of Syria, sitting on a powder keg with only a squirt gun to put out the burning fuses.

The Pakistan army is now coordinating with NATO on attacks inside of Pakistan. Which goes back to exactly what I said (about 10 threads ago, I couldn't even find it.. we don't need new threads for every update to the story... hint hint)

We had Drones flying over 15 villages today inside Pakistan without one shot fired...

Originally Posted by Rocky_Shorz

In public he has to stand up and say it is wrong, but the non-actions by Pakistan's army is showing what their true stance is... He's no different than the leader of Syria, sitting on a powder keg with only a squirt gun to put out the burning fuses.

The Pakistan army is now coordinating with NATO on attacks inside of Pakistan. Which goes back to exactly what I said (about 10 threads ago, I couldn't even find it.. we don't need new threads for every update to the story... hint hint)

We had Drones flying over 15 villages today inside Pakistan without one shot fired...

I acknowledge up front that you may be proven right. However "In public he has to stand up and say it is wrong" only shows what is obvious, that a spokesman is going to speak in a way that obfuscates the truth for the sake of "perception". What is not up for debate is the fact that the last time soldiers crossed the border, they were fired upon. Don't forget the fact that the "apparent" change in attitude came after the Indian air force flew over Kashmir territory. In other words, there is more going on here than meets the eye, and I find it very unlikely that the Pakistani government "loves" NATO, "supports" the U.S.'s war against Al Qaeda/ Taliban, "acquiesces" to foreign troops entering their territory, fundamentally "allies" itself with the Western viewpoint, or "celebrates" the commitment of the U.S. to root out terrorists NO MATTER where they geographically decide to do so.

Comments from ministers and government spokesmen neither prove nor disprove either of our viewpoints, no more than Rice and Cheney's condemnation of Russia's actions in Georgia eliminate the fact that they support the U.S. acting similarly (to put it most mildly) when they see fit.

Again, I fully acknowledge that you may have the better read on this situation. I still maintain that the original U.S. - Pakistani "alliance" was false, or rather, one born of temporary mutual benefit, that was destined to fall apart from its inception. Note - Musharaff is gone - not inconsequential or irrelevant. Note - post Musharaff the Pakistani government has not "played ball" as usual with Musharaff.

In addition, you have to look at the larger pattern very recently developing, unseen heretorforenow, of nations OPENLY siding against the Bush/Cheney/Israel, cabal - e.g. Latin America, South America, Russia, Pakistan - joining in with Iran et alia. China behind the scenes, playing the situation carefully and mostly silently - only threats coming from their alliance w/ Russia vis a vi Iran, via the Shanghai Cooperative, and subtle, but most devastatingly real economic threats via their state newspaper -
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...onid=351020404, as an example. I see Pakistan's obvious "change" in approach to the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Ahfganistan situation must represent something different than the previous mode of "cooperation".

Please continue to update me with information on this area, and please don't take my responses as a refutation of your ideas. I value your thoughts here,


Z

[Rocky_Shorz]

I do enjoy your inputs, seeing a different point of view brings up new questions that make me look for answers.

Remember the first day when the Pakistan Military leader Stated flat out there is no Al Queda or Terrorist in Pakistan's tribal region as the US Military had drones in the air, bombing and killing their Operations Leader...

Made the Pakistan Military leader look clueless...

Next thing we knew, the head of NATO flew out for the meeting.

Right after that, the government announced that NATO will be pursuing them into the country...

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by Rocky_Shorz

I do enjoy your inputs, seeing a different point of view brings up new questions that make me look for answers.

Remember the first day when the Pakistan Military leader Stated flat out there is no Al Queda or Terrorist in Pakistan's tribal region as the US Military had drones in the air, bombing and killing their Operations Leader...

Made the Pakistan Military leader look clueless...

Next thing we knew, the head of NATO flew out for the meeting.

Right after that, the government announced that NATO will be pursuing them into the country...

True enough, Rocky, and thanks for the compliment, I return it to you. However, that doesn't even touch on the issue of defining the true nature of Al Qaeda, a generally acknowledged "creation" of the CIA in the 80's. I think it is important that we not take the word of the government, specifically the liars (my opinion, and the opinion of many) that constitute the Bush, Cheney cabal, as to the definition of the ENEMY, yet alone the proper course to follow to alleviate the problem they cause, IF that problem exists (according to their definition).

Therefore, if even a miniscule amount of skepticism is applied to our "war on terror", then the "mainstream"/ Bush justification for violating the borders of any nation is in jeopardy, much less the border of a nation that up until very recently we have called "friends", "allies", "compatriots", et cetera. One might ask, "How can this issue of a border dispute with Pakistan EVEN exist?", "Are we not brothers in the fight against the Taliban?", "Do we not oppose an undemocratic Ahfganistan together?", etc... etc...

In other words, once the "Al Qaeda as the ultimate enemy of mankind" or "if the Taliban is not destroyed, freedom will die" arguments fail to hold up, then the excuses for crossing the Pakistan border similarly fail. If that is the case, then the Pakistani cries for "sovereignty of their OWN border" can be seen in a different light than the Mullen/Rice/Bush viewpoint of "Hey, we're just getting the bad guys, like we talked about." I think that neither the Pakistani government, no matter how involved with the West they committed themselves, nor the Pakistani people, will ultimately see things the Bush way.


Let's see where it goes, and keep the info coming

[Rocky_Shorz]

several threats towards Iran has come out in recent weeks from Al Queda...

They are accusing them of being allies of the US against Afghanistan and Iraq...

Kind of a twisted view, but I know you understand the two edged sword mentioned in your last post.

If they directed the same towards the leadership of Pakistan, the whole country would explode into violence.

I did get out of the government from Pakistan what I was hoping to see...

[Zarathustra]

Understood, Rocky, and it goes towards the theory of "the taking of sides" I have outlined in other posts. Let's see what happens.

[Rocky_Shorz]

a little bird laid this before me, all I can do is smile...

Story Link

U.S. military advisors may soon head to Pakistan
The U.S. and Pakistan have cleared remaining obstacles, so the long-delayed team may arrive within weeks, Joint Chiefs Chairman Michael Mullen says.
By Peter Spiegel, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 19, 2008
A long-delayed plan to send dozens of U.S. military advisors to Pakistan to train its army in counterinsurgency could begin in a matter of weeks under a new agreement on a training base, according to the top U.S. military officer.

Washington for months has urged the Pakistani military to accept the training team. Pakistan has resisted, asking for additional weaponry and equipment some U.S. officials believe is best suited for its standoff with regional rival India.

Mullen said he believed Pakistani officials were insisting on their right "to defend their country, which I understand, which anybody understands."

He added: "Clearly we have no desire to get into any kind of engagement with the Pakistani military."

[Zarathustra]

US defies Pakistan with new air raid

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-25837,00.html


Pakistani president tells foreign troops to keep out

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapc...n.sovereignty/

[Rocky_Shorz]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

US defies Pakistan with new air raid

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-25837,00.html


Pakistani president tells foreign troops to keep out

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapc...n.sovereignty/

Well what do you expect for him to tell Pakistan after he watched a bomb make a crater 30 feet deep in front of a highly guarded hotel...

They can't handle it which is why there is going to be coordination starting, but al queda's enemy is the US, for us to open a base there is going to give them a "target"

What do you think is going to happen the first time al queda makes an attack on the US base?

[Rocky_Shorz]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7651249.stm

The evening attack killed at least 20 people, unnamed Pakistani security sources and the Dawn News television channel said.

It is believed to have targeted a house in the village of Mohammad Khel, 30km west of Miranshah, the region's main town.

'Most were foreigners'

Most of the dead in Mohammad Khel are thought to be foreign militants.

"Our reports suggest that around 20 suspected militants were killed..." an unnamed "senior Pakistani security official" was quoted as saying by AFP news agency.

"Most were foreigners," the official added. Dawn TV reports that 16 of the dead were foreign.

North Waziristan is a stronghold of Islamic militants, including the Taleban and al-Qaeda. ...

However, the agency later quoted a Pakistani military spokesman, Maj-Gen Athar Abbas, as denying there had been any intrusion into Pakistani territory.

Instead, he said, an international operation had been launched against militants on the Afghan side of the border.