The Venus Project is a Pipe Dream.......unless....

[raulduke]

I apologize for the harsh title, but I beg you to please read what I have written here. If you disagree, then great! Please explain why, and we can begin to have the discourse that should have hapened on Alex Jones's show.

I've thoroughly read all of the Zeitgeist/Project Venus threads and I haven't heard much about what is, imo, the most important aspect:

"How do we actually get there?"


The more recent threads have been dominated by Alex Jones vs. Peter Joseph mentality. These men have personified thier respective movements and garnered many followers. As a result we have attatched ourselves to those people (who are both fallable) and have been let down by their personal shortcomings. The sorry excuse for an interview (on both of their behalfs) on AJ's show has set us back several steps.

AJ was certainly not the best fit for interviewing PJ, although his concerns are indeed waranted. Maybe Jeff Rense or Alex Ansary could have kept it civil, maybe Kerry and Bill, I would really like to get their opinion on this btw (Mods, could you help here?).

Peter Joseph represents what beautiful possibilities exist in a positive future.

Alex Jones represents "how we get there".

That being said, I feel that Peter Joseph is, at least, extremely naive.
I wish that Peter would acknowledge that while his vision is ideal, it is also very dangerous. I believe he has overlooked the forces that may wish to corrupt his ideals, because of this naivete. He seems to assert that the PTB are concerened only w/ money, and as such, setup a faulty sytem that
would benefit them using scarcity. The system, as PJ sees it, was not intentionally designed to fail but will fail anyway. The PTB will then be helpless and look to us (the masses) to show them the way. If they don't like it, then they will slink away.

Imo and from the research I have done, nothing could be more dangerous to free thinking people than assuming what Peter has.
I have concluded that his contentions about the PTB and evil ("aberrant behavior" as he insists on calling it) are too simplified. Maybe they are just ahead of their time, but currently they are dangerous.

Allow me to explain what I have gleaned fom Peter's words and works on the subject of evil ("aberrant behavior"). He contends that evil ("aberrant behavior") exists, but that we can identify the source and diagnose the problem thus rendering it impotent. If that is the case, then we are in dire need of an effective diagnosis before things go sideways.

Peter's diagnosis is as follows:

1. Expose Fed Cartel (express contempt)
2. Turn off T.V. news
3. Boycott the millitary
4. Boycott energy companies
5. Reject the political system
6. Create critical mass

These are all steps that must be taken indeed.

However, what he fails to explain is that these steps (if employed effectively en masse) will elicit a sh*t storm the likes of which we have never seen, from the PTB.
This is extremely dangerous, it is like leading lambs to the slaughter, in that if we expose the Fed cartel or reject the political system w/o exposing the cabals behind those institutions, they will be able to continue thier evil("aberrant behavior") occultly as they have before. Only now, they are near a bottle neck, so to speak, where something drastic must take place for them to retain control.
If a bear breaks down your door and charges after you, would the better decision be to react immediatley or to stop to consider why this bear has broken down your door in hopes that through your reflection, you could reason w/ the bear? I ask this because we are in serious trouble right now, moreso if we underestimate the opposition.
Wether or not evil("aberrant behavior") can be diagnosed in the future, Peter acknowledges that it exists now. He simplifies evil("aberrant behavior") motivations which is appealing as it is calming, but serious consequences result from this simplification, as I have detailed.

Peter himself says that current humans would not fair well in a venus project type of society. Some of people are there, but the large majority of us are not ready for this. This is indeed an idea beyond it's time. We need to take smaller steps toward this goal to ensure that we all can get there.

The bottom line is that the PTB are interested in control more than anything else and they will not slink away because the "system [venus project] is true" as Peter has said and it is naive to think that they will.


The only practical solution that I can think of is merely exposing all of this evil("aberrant behavior") and the plans that have resulted rather than identifying its source and diagnosing it. There will be time to do identify and diagnose the problem once we are aware of the problem. Imo this means something like what Alex Jones advocates (which is not violence as I have read from some PA members), public airing of all discretions coupled w/ some sort of trial and repercussions. (Disclaimer!: Alex's demeanor was awful in that interview and was counterproductive to our conglomeration as like minded poeple).

This (true) story I think characterizes what i have been talking about.

A British climber on K2 recently was decending alone when he came across 3 Korean climbers connected to each other, entagled in their ropes, and dangling helplessly above an abyss. The first one was babbling incoherently, the second was unconscious, and the third was somewhat coherent. The British climber immediately began to do what he could to help, but the somewhat coherent man was only trying to explain what had happened to them, rather than work w/ the British climber. They were above 14,000 feet and as such, had very little time to save themselves. The British climber could not help the Koreans w/o their participation which he wasn't receiving, so he radioed for help and decended to save his own life, but all three Korean climbers died. If they would have addressed the problem they faced, the British climber would have had a chance to help.

We all face the same problem, and until we agree upon what that problem is, we will always be helpless.
We can be our own saviors if we know what we face.

[Jenny]

"Peter himself says that current humans would not fair well in a venus project type of society. Some of people are there, but the large majority of us are not ready for this.
This is indeed an idea beyond it's time.
We need to take smaller steps toward this goal to ensure that we all can get there."


Hi Raulduke,

The quote above says it all.

The problem is Time.

It is all about time.

In my experience all that separates us from our dream and from each other and separates species and space is Time.

We live in a personal timeframe or timeloop.
These frames or loops we as individuals do experience 24/7 is what is dividing us and keeping us from coming together and assess the state we are in NOW.

Some of us are stuck in the past, some of us are living in a furture time.

The problem is Time. In what time are you living inside?

We will meet in the NOW we will come together and find the best way to go about things when we live in the NOW time/space.
In facing what is NOW, it is what it is now, staying emotionally neutral, we will solve the problem and find the solution to anything. As 1 species. 1 humanity.

This is an internal personal work we all need to accomplish and we cannot put the responsability onto someone else.

Jenny ( this is a personal post)

[undetected]

The Zeitgeist/Venus movement's main discordance is, in my opinion, putting technology above spirituality. I'm not sure if they really think that way or it just seems so, but there's too much of this "technology is THE most important..." propaganda, at the cost of something that I think should come first.

Simple example. Imagine a society that is spiritually very advanced but has little technology. They will live in poorer conditions maybe, but they will live in peace and be happy and they will enjoy life.

Now imagine a society that is technologically very advanced but lacks spirituality. It's a total disaster, the current elite is pretty much an example of that. You have the capability for global genocide and no moral safety lock to stop you from executing it.

So, even if the Venus Project technological vision was realized, without humanity advancing spiritually it wouldn't solve as much as it thinks it would. It would work for the creators of it, it would work for the Zeitgeist people, it would probably work for this forum's members, but most people are still used to think in ways of abusing anything to their advantage. And I'm not even talking about the elite who will do anything to destroy the project.

I am all for the Zeitgeist movement and Project Venus, but before educating people on technology, we need to educate people on spirituality, because in it is the understanding of how everything works, not in technology. And without understanding, the system can't sustain itself.

Technology on its own won't bring a solution, especially with the elite still in power. They already have all the advanced technology and they won't hesitate to use it against us if they feel a threat to their power. They're not afraid of us having hi-tech machines. But they are scared of us really understanding what's going on and advancing spiritually. Their goals of keeping us poor are far behind their goals of keeping us dumb and asleep. If we learn to use all the potential we have as human beings, they will have no power over us.

Remember when in The Matrix Neo realizes how it works and suddenly even bullets can't touch him? That's a good parallel. When we reach that point, then we can use technology, but using it without deeper understanding of the spiritual forces of the Universe won't get us far.

[Harper]

Raulduke & Jenny,

This is the kind of discussion I am very happy to be engaged in! I have been mulling over and back a back to basics type of idea for the last year and because of the enormity of the amount of information out there I just don't know which button to push inside myself first. One I agree wholeheartly with R but Jenny the time question is such a poison chalice and within it much confusion that for an initial premise maybe we could put it to one side for a moment. I am glad to explain it (in my opinion) in another post but would mix this one up too much to get into to it here.

So R & J,

What practical steps can any human or group get on with to further this notion. 1. the complete colapse of our financial system over night would almost equate to everyone on the planet being hurt more than they are already, the growth of militias to protect the small groups trying to start again in some semblance of society, would in actual fact just be the seeds of trying to recreate what was already destroted. Unprepared people (and I mean almost everyone falls into this group) would fall ill, starve, be killed or kill themselves if food and water became impossible to come by. I don't care what anyone says about being prepared, the bottled water, petrol, food, and medicine that we are all addicted to in some way or another would run out way sooner than anyone could imagine. Children would die by the thousands due to cold or overheat and malnutrition. Basically at the moment we and this is maybe karmically our fault have no idea how to live with the earth. Our bodies are relieant on so many things that we don't even think of. We have forgotten everything that would be necessary to survive healthily on our planet.

Now that sounds horrific, doesn't it? I agree. Can I complicate things even further, the mostly white western world tells the so-called developing world that they too must struggle to have education, medical care, vaccinations and how to "farm", "take resourses" and "trade" to make money -- just like us. The only peoples on the earth who had a fighting chance of surviving such a calamity are now seeking what we now know to be the unrelenting road to disaster.

R, you are so right to say that these changes take generations to implement, by taking our children to different schools where they don't learn that the "British or Roman or Catholic or Monetary Empires" are/were the greatest in the world, that the heros who took africa "for the purpose of speading civilisation" were not the most admirable leaders in the world but instead were bloodthirsty villians. Where they learn to play and sing before sitting in desks 8 hours a day and then considered difficult of hyperactive when they mis-behave. Where the obiedient and downtrodden child is the one held up for admiration instead of the artistic or creative 'even if this is shown by dismantling machines :-)) child is abused and confused before they even get going in life.

Small steps- small steps BUT one other giant step must be taken concurrently. That each human who has the opportunity to be exposed to these ideas do one thing ! Each of us must take a diary/think/meditate do whatever way you want to but devote a portion of our day to sit in gratitude/love/openess whatever word you please to admire our own greatness, our fingers; our friends; the fact that we can write in this forum; the fact that we can eat or read what we want; the beauty and wisdom of our cat -- you know who knows whatever details get pushed aside by worry and negativity to take that back. That is something that no one can give or take from you. The things you trully posess ................your ability to forgive or make delicious cakes -- this concentration on our true wealth, ourselves and our hearts I think will give us all the time we need to establish a new world order of our own making. Peace an love folks -- a pleasure to write to you. g

[raulduke]

Hello Jenny,undetected, and Harper,
Thank you all for taking the time to induldge my concerns.

Originally Posted by Jenny

The problem is Time.

It is all about time.

This is exactly what I was getting at. Our time is drawing ever closer.
I am speaking literally of "the point of no return".
Very soon, we will be put to a decision where in one hand we can choose to allow what is happening around us to happen, and in the other hand, the opportunity to influence what is happening.
Few of us here are sitting back, doing nothing, in hopes that all will go well. We are actively trying to influence the flow of reality by illuminating it's true nature, which is massively complex.
Our only chance to progress positively past "the point of no return" is if we can create enough human consciouness in a very short timespan.

Originally Posted by Jenny

This is an internal personal work we all need to accomplish and we cannot put the responsability onto someone else.

Well said. To proceed in any other manner would be counterproductive to our overall understanding, thus just as bad as disinformation. What I have learned (through much refinement) in broaching these subjects to people is to find something relative to our struggle that interests that particular person, and ask about their views on said subject. Listen and then offer your point of view. Many times I have found that, later they will return to me w/ their own questions, and from there, we can build.

We will one day realise that we are all our own saviors.
Therefore, our only hope is each other. Save your nieghbor/Save yourself are one in the same.

Thanks again everyone.

[Mark]

Sprituality along side technology along side nature with a leaning to the spiritual and the natural, to me, seems the way to go.

Alex was a child in the interview and I have been a fan for years - since that interview I've found it very hard to listen to the show. He says most days that if you disagree with him you get to the top of the phone queue, but when you do it's really hard to make your point with him - no matter how valid. I do think the Venus Projust smacks of New World Order in a way that seems unhealthy and with 'there' reincanated 'Jesus' starting and ending Zeitgeist seems to say it all to me.

I see the point completely about ridding ourselves of organised religion - they are just 'big business', but finding a truth with spirit seems very natural - a faith in ones self and in others - life.

Money - what a day that would be when we no long have to worry about it. The weight lifted of all our shoulders would be incredible. I do like the idea - StarTrek Next Gen, where people - lifeforms - work but work for the betterment of themselves and the betterment of civilisation. I don't work in the traditional sense - being beaten up saw pay to that, but even though I have to rely on benefits, I try, when I am able, to change my situation - getting off benefits - the best I can. I have a natural drive to do this and, health permiting, 'work' constantly - it is natural to me - i think it is for most peoeple - well those not on junk food and slaves the television - you know what I mean?

Later this year I've a book being published - all due to the need to create and the will to better myself and to bring a laugh to my readers - the very last thing on the list is to make lots of money - make some - sure becuse that it he world I live in at the moment, but not the end result. This drive, as I say, it natural in me - I'm sure that it is natural in you all here also - otherwise you would problem be looking at a porn site or glued to the televison.

Keep the faith, find the love and come up with a better way of living...

[nivosh]

Hello dear friends.

I think that we miss a very important point.
most of the people are NOT ready for a true revolution which is not against PTB/FDA/Ilumanati etc' but rather against the domination of our ego.

when we truly understand the nature of ourselves and the simple fact that we CAN'T die, CAN'T be killed, CAN'T be controlled then our actions will reflect that wisdom and all of these institutions will be obsolete.

we will triumph not by a violent revolution but rather through a silent one, within ourselves.

this is the true battle which has been going for ages.

our job is first to educate ourselves, and then teach others what we have found.

time is irrelevant, there is only now.

and the practical aspect's of that is:

first, meditate.
second, be aware of your reactions to others, and others to yourself.
third, try to remember that you are an infinite and indestructible soul.
fourth, stay in touch with people that understand that language and are able to contribute to the conversation.
five, don't run away from your live and hide in the cave. make the change from inside the mess and the darkness.

i wish you all love and peace.

[Phosphene_Sparks]

Originally Posted by nivosh

Hello dear friends.

I think that we miss a very important point.
most of the people are NOT ready for a true revolution which is not against PTB/FDA/Ilumanati etc' but rather against the domination of our ego.

when we truly understand the nature of ourselves and the simple fact that we CAN'T die, CAN'T be killed, CAN'T be controlled then our actions will reflect that wisdom and all of these institutions will be obsolete.

we will triumph not by a violent revolution but rather through a silent one, within ourselves.

this is the true battle which has been going for ages.

our job is first to educate ourselves, and then teach others what we have found.

time is irrelevant, there is only now.

and the practical aspect's of that is:

first, meditate.
second, be aware of your reactions to others, and others to yourself.
third, try to remember that you are an infinite and indestructible soul.
fourth, stay in touch with people that understand that language and are able to contribute to the conversation.
five, don't run away from your live and hide in the cave. make the change from inside the mess and the darkness.

i wish you all love and peace.

This is all very lovely but really what evidence do you have to substantiate such claims? I really would love to believe the ideas of control and death you have here but i'm not having anything real to hold on to.

[raulduke]

Hi nivosh and PS, thanks for your replies.

I have always felt that what nivosh says about the "nature of ourselves" is true. Even when I was very young and my Roman/Catholic schooling was telling me that the "afterlife" is something to be feared, I was never fearful. This will sound crazy I'm sure but, the earliest memory I have was that of a dog. Yes, I might be crazy. My parents reminded me (while joking w/ their friends at a dinner party) when i was 8 or so that at 4 years old I was recounting tales of being a black labradour, and immediatley I remembered the same detailed visions. I remember feeling that there was an entire other life I had lead. As a youngster I just thought it was cool that I had these strange memories (because I love dogs), but as I grew up and had time to reflect, I began to think that if this was not a past life, then it was at least a sign that life goes on in ways we can't imagine. It's very off the wall, but in a way, that is the reason that I believe to be "immortal" for lack of a better word.

So I die, big deal. I'm actually looking forward to death, not because I hate my life or anything like that (I do feel like I have alot left to do/experience/influence here on earth), but because it will be a great adventure. What does concern me, is seeing my fellow human beings being exploited unwhittingly or otherwise. My life has been so easy, I've had plenty of daydreaming time to consider so many philisophical questions. I just want to do all I can to help others realise the limitations of their surroundings. I think alot of these "spiritual awakening" movies like zeitgeist can potentially cause poeple to turn them into a religion of sorts thereby skipping the critical thinking we would normally apply.

Nivosh is right, the real work must be done inside each of us individually, but we need to realise that, for things to be set right (here on earth), we all need the chance to do the work unincumbered by disinfo and mental manipulation. Forget zeitgeist, forget project camelot, forget what i have said, forget it all, what do YOU think?

[TranceAm]

Originally Posted by Phosphene_Sparks

This is all very lovely but really what evidence do you have to substantiate such claims? I really would love to believe the ideas of control and death you have here but i'm not having anything real to hold on to.

So why are you holding on to 'death' then? ;-)