Vegetarians or Vegans?

[Morgan]

To add to the B12 discussion, I have read in multiple many (non-MSM) books/places that the B12 levels they state as 'normal' on blood tests are not only INCREDIBLY vast in range (I think the labs I go to say 200-800?), but also many alternative health professionals will tell you that 200 is WAY TOO LOW. Most people start to feel low energy and other symptoms of B12 deficiency before ever dipping below that level. (I was one of them.)

Additionally, the "healthy" or "normal" levels on the blood tests are actually 'averages' or what have you of the samples blood labs take from people. (Check out books by Sherry A. Rogers MD for more specifics. She's an allergist who became anti-pharmaceuticals and now treats people by looking for causes, recommends supplements, saunas, etc.) Now use logic - who gets their blood tested most often, sick people or healthy people? And who is more likely to be vitamin deficient? Dr Rogers basically states that the levels medical labs use for 'normal' are too low for people who want to be genuinely healthy.

B12 is only found in animal products, or, I am told, in fermented foods. Bacteria can produce it.

Looking for a supplement, aim for B12 in the form of methylcobalamin. (The cyanocobalamin is not absorbed as readily.)

-------

Now I want to comment on being vegan/vegetarian. I was vegetarian for 9 years and vegan for over half that duration, until becoming severely ill. My diet wasn't ace, but I was more nutritionally informed than probably 90% of people. I was deficient in all kinds of micronutrients and found to be allergic to literally ALL grains (yes, even spelt and the alternative grains).

I switched to a meat, veggie, and fruit diet. My health has recovered considerably.

So my 'beef' (ha) with this 'vegetarianism is more spiritual' is that - what do I do? With my allergies and other health experiences, I barely survive on a vegetarian diet, nevermind vegan. There has been much research into epileptics and other health conditions that show some people/health conditions do MUCH better on ketogenic or high protein diets.

So what does one say to my sector of the population? We won't ascend because we can't survive on plants alone? We will never progress spiritually because our ill health requires us to eat animal sources of protein?

I totally 100% support vegetarians/vegans, and I would be one were I in a different situation. I just find it hard to believe that my spiritual advancement would be blocked because in this incarnation I have conditions that require me to adhere to a particular diet in order to function in society.

I don't mean to cause any trouble either, and I love this thread, but I had to speak up on this. Vegetarianism, done with some knowledge, is absolutely healthy and ideal for people who are suited to it.

[chelmostef]

Originally Posted by Morgan

Most people start to feel low energy and other symptoms of B12 deficiency before ever dipping below that level. (I was one of them.) until becoming severely ill. My diet wasn't ace, but I was more nutritionally informed than probably 90% of people. I was deficient in all kinds of micronutrients and found to be allergic to literally ALL grains (yes, even spelt and the alternative grains). I switched to a meat, veggie, and fruit diet. My health has recovered considerably. So my 'beef' (ha) with this 'vegetarianism is more spiritual' is that - what do I do? With my allergies and other health experiences, I barely survive on a vegetarian diet, nevermind vegan. .
So what does one say to my sector of the population? We won't ascend because we can't survive on plants alone? We will never progress spiritually because our ill health requires us to eat animal sources of protein?
.

Thats a tricky situation to be in. If it effects your own health and well being, then you have no choice, its just something you cant do. You have tried it to you own detriment maybe this is enough. I have heard acording to you blood group that this can affect which foods you can eat.
Maybe its ones frame of mind that counts towards ascention, living in harmany with the world around us.
I have always thought it was a fallacy put out by meat eaters that you need meat, maybe I am wrong.
I personally have never had any ill health or felt less fit or had less energy from being vegan. I would go as far to say I feel much better for it.
I am not blowing my own trumpet, but I am a lot fitter than most people.
As for B12 vitamin, I looked at my chocolate alpro soya milk and for a 250ml serving you get 1.25ug or 125% of your RDA(recommended daily allowance) of B12 amongst other things + For 30g of my cornflakes I get 30% of my B12s

Maybe thats why I havent gone completely crazy despite what my freinds say!

[King Lear]

Meat is my vegetable!

[chelmostef]

Got chucked of the other threads did we king liar

[Phtha]

Originally Posted by King Lear

Meat is my vegetable!

That quote on your attachment implies to 99.99% of meat eaters as well. They get someone else to murder for them.

[igniop]

99% Vegan here! (I do occasionally succumb to pizza with cheese

I do believe that everybody has different needs - we just need to listen to our body and the vegan diet is not for everybody!
as for B12 - one can get enough through dairy and eggs.
as for getting sick - for me, I have been the same as when i was eating meat.
My husband has been vegan for 11 years and for the 5 years that i know him he has never been sick - not even once!


here are some stuff from wikipedia:

Health benefits and concerns

Vegetarianism is considered a healthy, viable diet. The American Dietetic Association and the Dietitians of Canada have found a properly-planned vegetarian diet to satisfy the nutritional needs for all stages of life, and large-scale studies have shown vegetarianism to significantly lower risks of cancer, ischaemic heart disease, and other fatal diseases.[10][11][35] Necessary nutrients, proteins, and amino acids for the body's sustenance can be found in green leafy vegetables, grains, nuts, and fortified juices or soymilk.[36]

Vegetarian diets can aid in keeping body weight under control[37][38] and substantially reduce risks of heart disease and osteoporosis.[39][40][39][40] Non-lean red meat, in particular, has been found to be directly associated with dramatically increased risk of cancers of the lung, oesophagus, liver, and colon.[13][41] Other studies have shown that there were no significant differences between vegetarians and nonvegetarians in mortality from cerebrovascular disease, stomach cancer, colorectal cancer, breast cancer, or prostate cancer.[42]

The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada have stated: "Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals."[35]

Vitamin B12

Plants are not generally significant sources of Vitamin B12,[51] However, vegetarians can obtain B12 from dairy products, eggs, fortified foods and dietary supplements.[52][53] Since the human body preserves B12 and reuses it without destroying the substance, clinical evidence of B12 deficiency is uncommon.[54][55] The body can preserve stores of the vitamin for up to 30 years without needing its supplies to be replenished.[51]

The recommendation of taking supplements has been challenged by studies indicating that exogenous B12 may actually interfere with the proper absorption of this vitamin in its natural form.[56] The research on vitamin B12 sources has increased in the latest years[57] and researchers at Hiroshima University have developed methods for growing plants rich in vitamin B12.[58]

[Blufire77]

The free will choice to become vegetarian or vegan has always been interesting and at the same time perplexing to me . . . . especially the part about not eating something that once was a living sentient being.

I spend the majority of my time outside on my farm growing organic food and tending to the various medicinal herbs and plants that I grow both by cultivation and wild crafting. Plants and trees for me are just as alive as the numerous animals here on the farm. When we harvest the vegetables, grains and fruits their “life force” is released and the plant “dies” . . . . it no longer can continue to grow or live through its natural cycle of life.

When I am in the garden or woods the plants and trees share their energy and communicate to me in a different way than an animal or person, but there is an emotional response none the less. Most have probably heard about plants that are talked to or are lovingly cared for are healthier than those left alone and given only the basic needs of life. Is this not a “form” of emotional intelligent response?

I eat all types of meat, eggs and dairy products as well as fruits, whole grains and vegetables. I embrace and accept my “human” designation in the “animal” kingdom and part of that designation is an “omnivore”, one who consumes both plants and meat. Humans are not classified as carnivores (meat only eaters) or herbivores (plant only eaters). Our bodies require complex proteins and amino acids that only red meat can supply. Does that mean that humans cannot survive on only a plant or meat only diet? No obviously humans can as many of you in this forum do. But there is a difference between surviving and thriving.

I am striving toward a completely off-grid, self-sustaining environment. Part of being self-sustaining means not only do I grow all the food I eat, I also grow all the food my livestock eat. All life on this farm (four and two legged and rooted) is respected, loved and honored. I abhor the way animals are treated in mass producing slaughter houses and I will not eat meat produced in this way . . . for many reasons not only morally. I also detest mass produced vegetables and fruits. These “living beings” are also grown in toxic, hostile environments.

At this point, I would like to state that I strongly take objection with the idea that only vegetarians or vegans can ascend to a higher level of enlightenment. My personal enlightenment and spiritual growth rapidly took off at the point I began meditating and praying outside in all weather and seasons while going about the daily tasks of farm life . . . . all tasks of farm life. I have became very sanguine and completely at peace with the “circle of life”. Simply with the absolute knowledge and understanding that “life” never, ever ends . . . .it is unfathomably and wonderfully infinite.

So for me when one says they are superior to me because they only eat “dead” plants, fruits and vegetables means that perhaps they should come here to my humble little farm and shovel poop.

[uniconr]

Originally Posted by Morgan

I was deficient in all kinds of micronutrients and found to be allergic to literally ALL grains (yes, even spelt and the alternative grains).
..
So my 'beef' (ha) with this 'vegetarianism is more spiritual' is that - what do I do? With my allergies and other health experiences, I barely survive on a vegetarian diet, nevermind vegan. There has been much research into epileptics and other health conditions that show some people/health conditions do MUCH better on ketogenic or high protein diets.
..
So what does one say to my sector of the population? We won't ascend because we can't survive on plants alone? We will never progress spiritually because our ill health requires us to eat animal sources of protein?

its really surprising to me that a meat diet is your only option, but if it is truly the case then so be it. health is paramount.
to your segment of the population i would say talk to a nutritionist and if they know their onions theyll point you in the right direction.
grains arent even an essential to the human diet. have you looked into acupuncture? my girlfriend is actually being cured of a few of her allergies and sensitivities, but it tends to be pretty expensive..

[uniconr]

Originally Posted by Blufire77

When we harvest the vegetables, grains and fruits their “life force” is released and the plant “dies” . . . . it no longer can continue to grow or live through its natural cycle of life.
..
Our bodies require complex proteins and amino acids that only red meat can supply. Does that mean that humans cannot survive on only a plant or meat only diet? No obviously humans can as many of you in this forum do. But there is a difference between surviving and thriving.
..
So for me when one says they are superior to me because they only eat “dead” plants, fruits and vegetables means that perhaps they should come here to my humble little farm and shovel poop.

i disagree with the idea that harvest means death. i believe much of the life force is still present in the plant until it is broken down in some way, either by digestion bacterial or animal, or by cooking.

plants still reproduce sexually, but when its seeds germinate in the ground around the plant, competition for water and sunlight wont do either plant or sprout any good. plants need animals to poop their seeds far and wide, thats why fruit is so delicious! the infinity of animal life though does not benefit from being eaten..

i dont think that meat consumption is a detriment to spiritual growth, and i dont think exclusive vegetable consumption is a detriment to thriving.

in conclusion shoveling poop is really good money. for serious

[pineal-pilot-in merkabah]

mostly vegan here, if i visit others houses and are given gifts of food then i accept dairy products. been veggie since 2000 and vegan for a year. i will eat meat if i have to tho if it comes to it. obv wild rabbits or deer or whatever squirrels?? im also looking at buying a few hundered cans of sardines for absolute emergencies!!

[truthseekersearching]

Interesting topic.

I have toiled with whether a human body actually "needs" meat to sustain itself or not, for a few years now. My gut tells me it’s all about your individual DNA make-up whether or not your body can effectively process meat or not. I personally and two other direct family members have had to have our gallbladders removed, which is the main organ that breaks down fat from meat products, so the cards are stacked against me from a physiological standpoint.

Personally, not eating meat is a moral decision I have made. I have also learned that meat and dairy products are low vibration foods and I have received enlightenment to stop consuming low vibration foods. Not eating dairy products has been a challenge.

Realistically, if certain outcomes do come to pass, meat wrapped in a nice little package in the refrigerated isle of your local grocery store will become a thing of the past and consumers will either need to hunt for their meat, which brings up the topic of who owns the meat that you hunt? Unless you are hunting wild hoofed stock chances are the meat you are stalking is owned by a rancher somewhere and you run the risk of being shot for stealing their meat. That would mean consumers would need to rely on a very unsanitary open market scenario to buy/trade for meat.

Interesting topic indeed.

Peace

[King Lear]

I'm soooo mean

Aren't plants living creatures too? Or is it only OK to eat living organisms outside our biological classification?

[arcora]

I believe the body craves what it needs.

Suddenly I feel like having a pork chop.

[izz]

Originally Posted by arcora

This thread is very good news for me.

After all hell breaks loose and only we enlightened people are left standing, red meat will be plentiful.

see deliberately provoking ATS style ...

[Shobhana]

The time will come when men such I will look upon the murder
of animals as know the look upon the murder of men.
Leonardo da Vinci

[arcora]

Originally Posted by izz

see deliberately provoking ATS style ...

I am truly sorry if I offended anyone with my remark. I was trying to be humorous. Please forgive me.

[Theresa]

YEA!!! great thread~

I am vegan, on and off for 20 years, now on for several months for good. I have been guided that it most definitely is a higher vibration way to live/eat, however, spirit cautions that not every evolving "ego" is ready for the higher vibration. In other words, if that souls' evolution still requires the "vibration" of animal foods to continue it's "growth", it will manifest as a nutrient 'need' for animal protein. HOWEVER-there is no debate scientifically now that less animal protein and more whole plant foods prevent and heal disease (see THE CHINA STUDY by T. Colin Campbell, PhD).

I feel SOOOOO much better on a plant based diet, but WITHOUT refined sugar! Sugar is "vegan" but also carcinogenic!

Viva La Vegan~

[Sideshow Shaman]

Originally Posted by chelmostef

Hi all!

I was wondering if any one else was veggie or vegan?
Does anyone think this is important step towards ascention?

Stef

It is an important step towards human species survival.
Producing meat uses far more resources than vegetables.

That said, I am not really vegetarian. Was vegan for some time. I eat meat about twice a month now, but I do consider all animal flesh (even fish) to be meat.

If you are looking to increase the health of your mind+body...
focus on doing good things.
Not on avoiding bad things, that will happen naturally once the good is flowing.

[Phtha]

Originally Posted by historycircus

Aren't plants living creatures too? Or is it only OK to eat living organisms outside our biological classification?

It's known that the vast majority of plants live on a far lower plane of consciousness then even the most lowly animal.

Many fruits and vegetables are designed to be eaten. Just look at them and think about how they work and you'll see. I can't think of one animal
where the same can be said.

[Blufire77]

Originally Posted by Sideshow Shaman

It is an important step towards human species survival.
Producing meat uses far more resources than vegetables.

That said, I am not really vegetarian. Was vegan for some time. I eat meat about twice a month now, but I do consider all animal flesh (even fish) to be meat.

If you are looking to increase the health of your mind+body...
focus on doing good things.
Not on avoiding bad things, that will happen naturally once the good is flowing.

Sideshow Shaman I'm curious . . . . what experience do you have growing vegetables or producing meat?

[Shellie]

I feel no guilt for being at the top of the food chain. The only thing I feel guilt about is not being able to share my gratefulness to the creature that died for me; by treating it compassionately during its life and asking its spirit both for its blessings and forgiveness.

Then, it is OK to harvest for sustinance any living organism that has a lower level of conciousness than ourselves? That should present a real problem for those who believe extraterrestrials are doing the same thing to humans, and are horrified by it.

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Phtha

It's known that the vast majority of plants live on a far lower plane of consciousness then even the most lowly animal.

Many fruits and vegetables are designed to be eaten. Just look at them and think about how they work and you'll see. I can't think of one animal
where the same can be said.

[Shellie]

"Life" doesn't spontaneously come from nowhere... it just gets passed along. Somewhere, something has to "give" in order for something else to "receive".

Good point Boogies. Native American hunters did that very thing. European traders found it odd that Indian hunters would speak to the fallen prey after the chase. In a couple of recorded instances, we know they were thanking the spirit of the animal for its gift. We could probably do the same I guess, but it would be eaisier if we had an up close relationship with our meat (caught or raised ourselves).

Originally Posted by 99Boogies

I feel no guilt for being at the top of the food chain. The only thing I feel guilt about is not being able to share my gratefulness to the creature that died for me; by treating it compassionately during its life and asking its spirit both for its blessings and forgiveness.