The Future and Beyond by Jacque Fresco

[Reveling John]

Originally Posted by elirien

First of all thank you for the separation of the subjects at hand John.

No problem

When you ignore the individual and digitize the masses to social engineering statistics that will happen all over. Failure is built in these systems because it ignores the other side of humanity that science tries to learn and control of, spirituality. What the hell do these people think. If I put my head in the sand that it will go away? Hell no. There is more around you then you can even imagine. Why in logic's name would you want to use systems that oppress the individuals development by sucking them dry of their energy in form of money, motivation and intellect?

Well, Elirien, you are not making any sense. None of your commentary is directly addressing any of the quotes you are using. Here you say "why would you want to use systems that oppress the individuals development by sucking them dry of thier energy in form of money, motivation and intellect..." when this entire essay is the very anticedent of that. To prove my point I quote:

"...When education and resources are available to all without a price tag, there would be no limit to the human potential.

...The social designs that are proposed in this writing merely provide the opportunity for individuals to develop their fullest potential in whatever endeavor they choose without the fear of loss of individuality or submission to uniformity.

...People would be free to pursue whatever constructive field of endeavor they choose without any of the economic pressures, restraints, debts and taxation that are inherent in the monetary system of today."

-J.F.

Your arguments don't seem to be connected to any specific sentence or overall intent. Maybe you just have an issue with laying out the argument clearly, and if that's the case I would suggest quoting only one or two sentences at a time and fully addressing only that fragment before moving on to the next idea. Also it doesn't appear that you've read the entire essay, which makes it difficult to respond to a specific segment if you don't know how that segment relates to the whole piece. It's like going on a rant about a 5 sec clip from a film, without watching the rest of the film to see that clip's relationship to the entire composition. So, maybe you should finish reading before you make any further statements.

"The failure of communism to provide for human needs and to enrich the lives of its citizens is not unlike our own failures. Both failure and success are inherent in the on-going experiment that is social evolution. In all established social systems it is necessary to devise different approaches to improve the workings of the system. "
-J.F.

When you ignore the individual and digitize the masses to social engineering statistics that will happen all over.

What do you mean "that will happen"? It HAS happened. It IS happening. Human history is a history of dominant, boundary-defining, fragmented, and oppressive societies. Why are you addressing such memes as "ignore the individual" and "social engineering statistics" when this paper mentions none of those things except to implicate the current society's duplicity in breaking down the individual into a collection of meaningless cultural classifications? And if you think that's what is being said, you need to quote such references and clearly express what your comprehension of those passages are, before proceeding to rebuke them.

What does "digitize the masses" mean to you? While I await your extensive explanation, may I remind you that if you have an extensive knowledge of music, film, literature, games, etc. you can relegate a large portion of your capacity to know these things to the 'digitizing' of these various artifiacts. More than 90% of the media I've ever experienced, including text, music and film has come to me in a digital form and it was only the scientific/techinical process of digitization that allowed me to experience these things at all. I would say that this is true for most denizens of the western world, yourself most likely being included in that. But more importantly, what specific point are you addressing by using that phrase?

Besides linking "vision" to many esoteric symbolism there is the grand problem with his theory that he himself addresses. Everything changes in the universe. The problem with social engineering is that it tries to blend humanity to a form that they believe is to be true because of the meek science that has just understood a very small bit of what could be deemed as reality. Since everything changes in this "reality" there can be no "one perfect system" or "order".

First I want to address the "grand problem", then I will move one to this alleged 'social engineering'.

"Everything changes" is the foundation of the Venus Project.

The point is that current society and the current state of our proto-civilization is one that ignores the modern acheivements of science. Our economic system ignores and suppresses new technologies. Our foreign policy ignores experiementally proven observations about human psychology and sociology. Our social infrastructure places little value on systems theories and the scientificly established notion that we are all connected in being, action, and thought. WE ARE NOT A RATIONAL OR LOGICAL CIVILIZATION because we ignore the progress that has been made towards understanding nature (including human nature), in order to preserve an old, out-dated world-view (which we are all still operating with, btw).

A society that accepts the reality of emergence-- emergent cultures, emergent sciences and emergent possibilities-- is one that is ALWAYS changing, always opting for the more logical and tolerant approach to any given problem. That IS what this essay affirms OVER and OVER AGAIN.

Social Engineering

The only time the term 'Social Engineering' is used in this entire thread is when you use it to charactice the Venus Project (and here, in this reply). Go ahead, do a word search, and you will not find a single instance of that phrase in the original essay. That poses 2 problems:

1) You never define the term so I don't know what you are talking about. Since you are presumably """borrowing""" the idea from the essay you should at least choose some very specific quotes and then outline HOW these quotes support your claim that this material is about "social engineering".

2) The fact that you use terms to characterize an essay in which those terms are never used, gives me serious doubts as to your ability to use language as a means of expressing and developing ideas, rather than as a means of creating limited abstractions of ideas, further diminishing the intent and meaning of those ideas.

The second problem is particularly unforunate because it encourages me to believe that you are not comprehending the intent and meaning of MY ideas, so possibly these few statements that I've made are completely lost on you. I certainly am not comprehending the meaning of many of YOUR ideas due to what I percieve as a lack of explanation. For my sake, I would ask that you spend more time formulating and composing your sentences and that you address ONE idea at a time.

Thanks for your audience and participation in these discussions.

[Reveling John]

Actually, I need to apologize. The end of that last reply kind of turned into an attack, when I did not intend it to. I'm just frustrated that even when we use the same language, there is a perception barrier that stands in the way of us communicating or of us perceiving similar ideas in a given piece of literature.

Sorry, Elirien. Please continue your dissection of this piece with the knowledge that I'm truly interested in what you have to say.

Great Love,
John

[Peace of Mine]

I had a chance to visit the 25-acre Venus Project in Venus, Florida. I took my grandchildren, 8 and 12, at the time. Both were so intrigued as Jacques explained his project, with the use of hands-on robots and models and videos, etc, that they sat entranced for two hours.

We then toured the facility - we saw the domes they built themselves, and had demonstrations of the possible use of technology to make life easier for humans.

As we traveled home, the two children could discuss the concepts and ideas in depth. It intrigued them, to be able to check out kayaks or jet skies or skate boards, or cameras or movie-making gear, or to go to a computer station, or to have time to participate in live plays, or learn to play a banjo, just because you want to.

Jacque's ideas overcome the one "scarce resource" that keeps my grandkids from being able to do these things. It takes so much money to pay for individual jet skis, or movie-making equipment, or for banjo lessons, that my grandkids don't have ANY of those choices currently available.

I mean, given the state of wages and opportunities for the "Average Joe" these days, any discussion of ideologies, whether communism or socialism or "disaster capitalism", absolutely begs the question. Both parents are so busy working two jobs each just to pay for rent and food and transportation, ie, survival, they don't have time to be parents, much less think about banjo lessons.

Grandparents aren't much help. Pension plans, those that haven't been enronized or confiscated, erode daily. Social Security? It is criminal, how we consign our seniors to a life of worry and shame. In the richest country on earth.

BOTTOM LINE: Political, financial, and corporate leadership has failed MISERABLY to provide quality of life for the masses of people. If you are a reasonably sane person with no political ax to grind, the outcome of "Trickle-down Economics" is everyday exposed.

What Jacques seeks to do, imho, is move beyond the ideologies and use technology - sans MONEY - to take care of the very basics of living. His system would guarantee a clean, safe place to live FOR EVERYBODY, a community environment that would give each person every opportunity to "be all that they could be." They would not have to depend upon the little money they "earn" working for the current Wal-Marts - whether factory workers in China or cashiers in America. Robots from a central supply could handle most of the material needs of the people.

A mass-transit system would move people from home to central city for education, entertainment, health care, for libraries, and a place to "check out" the kayaks and movie-making equipment.

There is a plan for food self-sufficiency, so people do not have to struggle to feed themselves. There is no need to transport food across the globe, because most basics could be grown on the periphery of the city, or in rural land close-by.

The "Sea Cities" are simply one way to address over-population when there is not enough land mass available.

Every thing about the Venus Project PUTS PEOPLE FIRST. It asks "How can technology solve problems for humans so they are free to ENJOY LIVING, to HAVE CHOICES in how they spend their time, and CHOICES in how they can best contribute to the greater whole.

The question that should be asked is why our current religious, political, financial, and NGO's operate from any other assumptions.

Why should the majority of people stay broke and hungry, enslaved by those with a selfish agenda that benefits only a small minority? Why shouldn't we change the way resources are managed so that they benefit ALL THE PEOPLE? Why should we allow crony capitalists to wage war or imprison our families so they can make money at our expense? No sane person can sustain an argument to "keep doing the same old thing expecting different results."

The Venus Project presents a RADICAL NEW IDEA that is ripe for our time:

Instead of competing for scarce jobs and scarce wages, available resources are utilized to create optimum conditions for living. Housing, food, clothing, recreation, education, entertainment, etc, is available FOR EVERYONE, so that the best teachers are then free to serve the youth of the community. Or a budding scientist can turn his attention to free energy. Or a spiritual adept can experiment with how to use sound and color to optimize plant growth. Or one who loves to cook can work in the "food palaces" to create art through food presentations that nourish body and soul.

Take away the POWER OF MONEY to horde the resources for one small minority, and utilize ALL AVAILABLE RAW MATERIAL to create prosperity and plenty for ALL THE PEOPLE.

Why would you not be ecstatic to help birth such a vision?

[mntruthseeker]

As I was reading this, I felt more and more intriqued

How absolutely beautiful. I want to thank you so much for putting this out there for us to read. (I cheated towards the end as I was getting very tired, thats how speed reading works.....) anyhow, I plan on re-reading this tomorrow.

Thank you again and it was the most positive thought I had seen in a very long time. It is a dream come true

We can make this happen and I hope to stick around and be there with everyone else

Love & peace to all


Vickie

[elirien]

Originally Posted by Peace of Mine

I had a chance to visit the 25-acre Venus Project in Venus, Florida. I took my grandchildren, 8 and 12, at the time. Both were so intrigued as Jacques explained his project, with the use of hands-on robots and models and videos, etc, that they sat entranced for two hours.

We then toured the facility - we saw the domes they built themselves, and had demonstrations of the possible use of technology to make life easier for humans.

As we traveled home, the two children could discuss the concepts and ideas in depth. It intrigued them, to be able to check out kayaks or jet skies or skate boards, or cameras or movie-making gear, or to go to a computer station, or to have time to participate in live plays, or learn to play a banjo, just because you want to.

Jacque's ideas overcome the one "scarce resource" that keeps my grandkids from being able to do these things. It takes so much money to pay for individual jet skis, or movie-making equipment, or for banjo lessons, that my grandkids don't have ANY of those choices currently available.

I mean, given the state of wages and opportunities for the "Average Joe" these days, any discussion of ideologies, whether communism or socialism or "disaster capitalism", absolutely begs the question. Both parents are so busy working two jobs each just to pay for rent and food and transportation, ie, survival, they don't have time to be parents, much less think about banjo lessons.

Grandparents aren't much help. Pension plans, those that haven't been enronized or confiscated, erode daily. Social Security? It is criminal, how we consign our seniors to a life of worry and shame. In the richest country on earth.

BOTTOM LINE: Political, financial, and corporate leadership has failed MISERABLY to provide quality of life for the masses of people. If you are a reasonably sane person with no political ax to grind, the outcome of "Trickle-down Economics" is everyday exposed.

What Jacques seeks to do, imho, is move beyond the ideologies and use technology - sans MONEY - to take care of the very basics of living. His system would guarantee a clean, safe place to live FOR EVERYBODY, a community environment that would give each person every opportunity to "be all that they could be." They would not have to depend upon the little money they "earn" working for the current Wal-Marts - whether factory workers in China or cashiers in America. Robots from a central supply could handle most of the material needs of the people.

A mass-transit system would move people from home to central city for education, entertainment, health care, for libraries, and a place to "check out" the kayaks and movie-making equipment.

There is a plan for food self-sufficiency, so people do not have to struggle to feed themselves. There is no need to transport food across the globe, because most basics could be grown on the periphery of the city, or in rural land close-by.

The "Sea Cities" are simply one way to address over-population when there is not enough land mass available.

Every thing about the Venus Project PUTS PEOPLE FIRST. It asks "How can technology solve problems for humans so they are free to ENJOY LIVING, to HAVE CHOICES in how they spend their time, and CHOICES in how they can best contribute to the greater whole.

The question that should be asked is why our current religious, political, financial, and NGO's operate from any other assumptions.

Why should the majority of people stay broke and hungry, enslaved by those with a selfish agenda that benefits only a small minority? Why shouldn't we change the way resources are managed so that they benefit ALL THE PEOPLE? Why should we allow crony capitalists to wage war or imprison our families so they can make money at our expense? No sane person can sustain an argument to "keep doing the same old thing expecting different results."

The Venus Project presents a RADICAL NEW IDEA that is ripe for our time:

Instead of competing for scarce jobs and scarce wages, available resources are utilized to create optimum conditions for living. Housing, food, clothing, recreation, education, entertainment, etc, is available FOR EVERYONE, so that the best teachers are then free to serve the youth of the community. Or a budding scientist can turn his attention to free energy. Or a spiritual adept can experiment with how to use sound and color to optimize plant growth. Or one who loves to cook can work in the "food palaces" to create art through food presentations that nourish body and soul.

Take away the POWER OF MONEY to horde the resources for one small minority, and utilize ALL AVAILABLE RAW MATERIAL to create prosperity and plenty for ALL THE PEOPLE.

Why would you not be ecstatic to help birth such a vision?

Did they share with you the technological basis or so to speak the blueprints of the projects they aim to fulfill? I am just curious if they are a subcontractors or the real deal themselves and if they believe in teaching people how to fish then rather giving them two fishes for their 'solution'.

[Peace of Mine]

Reply to Elilren:

"Did they share with you the technological basis or so to speak the blueprints of the projects they aim to fulfill? I am just curious if they are a subcontractors or the real deal themselves and if they believe in teaching people how to fish then rather giving them two fishes for their 'solution'."

Subcontractors? The real deal? Jacque Fresco is a FUTURIST - one who envisions how social and technological developments shape the future. His specialty is Industrial Design and Human Factors Engineering. He built a research facility on the 25 acres THAT INCLUDES WORKING MINATURES of everything from the special extruders to build low-cost housing (with built-in choice for the family who would occupy the home) to planning how the environment of the city could work with humans to maximize well-being for both.

Does the Venus Project "teach people how to fish?" As in, the current system, where TPTB force people to work at a Wal-Mart, or Arby's, or Camping World, for less than survival wages so they can "participate" in a system that guarantees that if they work hard while on earth they can have their reward in the afterlife? Is two weeks of vacation a year your idea of "quality of life?" Or maybe your kid is one of the "lucky" ones who works 36 hours a week without benefits. And takes another job to pay the rent.

Is that what you mean by teaching them how to fish? Dangle "higher education" and "The American Dream" in front of folks so they believe if they work harder, longer, somehow the current system will provide anything more than a debt-laden existence with no time to enjoy any of it?

What is the "two-fish" solution? Is it possible to stretch your thinking beyond what currently DOES NOT WORK to envision a society designed for maximum quality of life for EVERYONE rather than for the "chosen few" only at the top?

That's what The Venus Project did for me. It helped me envision a kinder, gentler world not ruled by The Money Game. Yes, WE, THE PEOPLE can create it if we can imagine it. Seems like there was a precedent set by a wise man who threw the money-changers out of the temple.

It is possible to mix your metaphors and come up with a wholly unexpected "new way of doing business." Get ready. We're in for some major - and very welcome - mind-blowing changes.

[Reveling John]

Thank you, Elirien for your level headed responce and expanding upon the thoughts you had layed out earlier. I'm glad you reminded me that you're from Turkey, so I can take into acount some of the cultural differences that that presents. For one thing you may not be accustomed to seeing extreme poverty (sick, disoriented homeless people) standing about 20 feet away from extreme wealth (a guy smoking a cigar, sitting in a hummer, talking on his iphone, who lives in a mantion in Beverly Hills) the way we see it here in the states, and as I particularly see it here in Los Angeles. I tell you if you understood how truly wealthy this country is, none of the poverty that exist ANYWHERE in the world would make any sense to you. And I'm looking at it everyday, and I'm shocked by it more and more so. Like Jacque says in his passage about incentive:

Some may question that if the basic necessities are accessible to all people, what will motivate them? This is tantamount to saying that children reared in affluent environments, in which their parents provide all the necessary food, clothing, shelter, nutrition, and extensive education, will demonstrate a lack of incentive or initiative. There is no evidence to support this fallacious assumption. There is overwhelming evidence to support the facts that malnutrition, lack of employment, low wages, poor health, lack of direction, lack of education, homelessness, little or no reinforcement for one's efforts, poor role models, poverty, and a bleak prospect for the future do create monumental individual and social problems, and significantly reduce an individual’s drive to achieve.

The rich folks aren't being told that they need to have their wealth removed in order to motivate them to make meaningful contributions to society. So why are the poor being told that if they had free access to vital necessities (and I consider education, healthcare and love necessities) that they wouldn't have any incentive to achieve their goals? This is BS in a way that gives BS a bad name.

Thank you, Peace for sharing your experience with the VP. You pretty much confirmed my suspicion of Jacque that he's a wise old sage who's willing to share his vision with anyone who asks. After viewing an old appearance he had on Larry King, I commented to a friend how amazing it is that this guy has kept at it for so many decades and is only now being taken seriously. Quite honestly, if I were in his position I wouldn't have made it this far. I simply wouldn't have survived for this long, so I'm glad he's had the fortitude to keep dreaming.

Great Love,
John

[elirien]

Originally Posted by Reveling John

Thank you, Elirien for your level headed responce and expanding upon the thoughts you had layed out earlier. I'm glad you reminded me that you're from Turkey, so I can take into acount some of the cultural differences that that presents. For one thing you may not be accustomed to seeing extreme poverty (sick, disoriented homeless people) standing about 20 feet away from extreme wealth (a guy smoking a cigar, sitting in a hummer, talking on his iphone, who lives in a mantion in Beverly Hills) the way we see it here in the states, and as I particularly see it here in Los Angeles. I tell you if you understood how truly wealthy this country is, none of the poverty that exist ANYWHERE in the world would make any sense to you. And I'm looking at it everyday, and I'm shocked by it more and more so. Like Jacque says in his passage about incentive:



The rich folks aren't being told that they need to have their wealth removed in order to motivate them to make meaningful contributions to society. So why are the poor being told that if they had free access to vital necessities (and I consider education, healthcare and love necessities) that they wouldn't have any incentive to achieve their goals? This is BS in a way that gives BS a bad name.

Thank you, Peace for sharing your experience with the VP. You pretty much confirmed my suspicion of Jacque that he's a wise old sage who's willing to share his vision with anyone who asks. After viewing an old appearance he had on Larry King, I commented to a friend how amazing it is that this guy has kept at it for so many decades and is only now being taken seriously. Quite honestly, if I were in his position I wouldn't have made it this far. I simply wouldn't have survived for this long, so I'm glad he's had the fortitude to keep dreaming.

Great Love,
John

O.K. Well about the extremes between rich and poverty in my country is like this. My boss can afford to buy a three story villa near the Bosporus while I can't pay my rent and dude I have it even good compared to the teachers in public schools and other low paying workers for the state. I am a translator by the way amongst other things I do. So poverty is quite the issue in a country that sells everything it has got to foreign investors because of their national foreign debt which is being used by the IMF and the World Bank. I know what you guys over there are going through because the same happened over here over and over. I could rant like crazy over just this subject but I'll leave it here. Just know that there are century gasps between our cities and villages.

I'm watching the video by the way. There is an interesting question by Jacque Fresco: "What competition did Jesus have? (around 0:33)". Well that guy was crucified wasn't he? I think that's kind off competition right there. Besides that the video is actually quite good except that it comes from a materialistic background.

Take care.

[elirien]

Originally Posted by Peace of Mine

Reply to Elilren:


Subcontractors? The real deal? Jacque Fresco is a FUTURIST - one who envisions how social and technological developments shape the future. His specialty is Industrial Design and Human Factors Engineering. He built a research facility on the 25 acres THAT INCLUDES WORKING MINATURES of everything from the special extruders to build low-cost housing (with built-in choice for the family who would occupy the home) to planning how the environment of the city could work with humans to maximize well-being for both.

What is the "two-fish" solution? Is it possible to stretch your thinking beyond what currently DOES NOT WORK to envision a society designed for maximum quality of life for EVERYONE rather than for the "chosen few" only at the top?

That's what The Venus Project did for me. It helped me envision a kinder, gentler world not ruled by The Money Game. Yes, WE, THE PEOPLE can create it if we can imagine it. Seems like there was a precedent set by a wise man who threw the money-changers out of the temple.

It is possible to mix your metaphors and come up with a wholly unexpected "new way of doing business." Get ready. We're in for some major - and very welcome - mind-blowing changes.

My question was if they did share with you guys the technology they spoke of so greatly of, like in the manner of "this is how you can build your cheap and efficient home. Just give this blueprint to a civil engineer and an architect".

You know what I mean with a "two fish" solution. Something more then just inspiration or a house to look upon to buy people off from the idea of individual property and money. You can get inspired by other means as well. I wouldn't need the venus project for that. That's for sure

Futurism doesn't work if you have a mind controlled society. It's like exploding million dollars worth of fireworks on the 4th of july while there are homeless people around. It's basic irony. That guy you spoke of was crucified for what he had done. There's a slight difference.

I'm getting ready and I know that this change is sadly very welcome amongst many people. People do adore the love change although they are in a universe that never ends to change every nanosecond. It's so weird.

[Luminari]

I posted a thread here in the avalon section where you can download your own high definition video of Jacque Fresco's "Future By Design" that comes with an awesome pdf book too... This has everything to do with Avalon, solutions for the future etc, but it was immediately moved to the camelot section and put in books, videos, articles etc by a moderator. Check it out if you are a torrent user, this is very special and something to save for future generations, better than a pixelated web-stream version. Peace

[elirien]

Originally Posted by Reveling John

No problem

Well, Elirien, you are not making any sense. None of your commentary is directly addressing any of the quotes you are using. Here you say "why would you want to use systems that oppress the individuals development by sucking them dry of thier energy in form of money, motivation and intellect..." when this entire essay is the very anticedent of that. To prove my point I quote:



Your arguments don't seem to be connected to any specific sentence or overall intent. Maybe you just have an issue with laying out the argument clearly, and if that's the case I would suggest quoting only one or two sentences at a time and fully addressing only that fragment before moving on to the next idea. Also it doesn't appear that you've read the entire essay, which makes it difficult to respond to a specific segment if you don't know how that segment relates to the whole piece. It's like going on a rant about a 5 sec clip from a film, without watching the rest of the film to see that clip's relationship to the entire composition. So, maybe you should finish reading before you make any further statements.



What do you mean "that will happen"? It HAS happened. It IS happening. Human history is a history of dominant, boundary-defining, fragmented, and oppressive societies. Why are you addressing such memes as "ignore the individual" and "social engineering statistics" when this paper mentions none of those things except to implicate the current society's duplicity in breaking down the individual into a collection of meaningless cultural classifications? And if you think that's what is being said, you need to quote such references and clearly express what your comprehension of those passages are, before proceeding to rebuke them.

What does "digitize the masses" mean to you? While I await your extensive explanation, may I remind you that if you have an extensive knowledge of music, film, literature, games, etc. you can relegate a large portion of your capacity to know these things to the 'digitizing' of these various artifiacts. More than 90% of the media I've ever experienced, including text, music and film has come to me in a digital form and it was only the scientific/techinical process of digitization that allowed me to experience these things at all. I would say that this is true for most denizens of the western world, yourself most likely being included in that. But more importantly, what specific point are you addressing by using that phrase?




First I want to address the "grand problem", then I will move one to this alleged 'social engineering'.

"Everything changes" is the foundation of the Venus Project.

The point is that current society and the current state of our proto-civilization is one that ignores the modern acheivements of science. Our economic system ignores and suppresses new technologies. Our foreign policy ignores experiementally proven observations about human psychology and sociology. Our social infrastructure places little value on systems theories and the scientificly established notion that we are all connected in being, action, and thought. WE ARE NOT A RATIONAL OR LOGICAL CIVILIZATION because we ignore the progress that has been made towards understanding nature (including human nature), in order to preserve an old, out-dated world-view (which we are all still operating with, btw).

A society that accepts the reality of emergence-- emergent cultures, emergent sciences and emergent possibilities-- is one that is ALWAYS changing, always opting for the more logical and tolerant approach to any given problem. That IS what this essay affirms OVER and OVER AGAIN.

Social Engineering

The only time the term 'Social Engineering' is used in this entire thread is when you use it to charactice the Venus Project (and here, in this reply). Go ahead, do a word search, and you will not find a single instance of that phrase in the original essay. That poses 2 problems:

1) You never define the term so I don't know what you are talking about. Since you are presumably """borrowing""" the idea from the essay you should at least choose some very specific quotes and then outline HOW these quotes support your claim that this material is about "social engineering".

2) The fact that you use terms to characterize an essay in which those terms are never used, gives me serious doubts as to your ability to use language as a means of expressing and developing ideas, rather than as a means of creating limited abstractions of ideas, further diminishing the intent and meaning of those ideas.

The second problem is particularly unforunate because it encourages me to believe that you are not comprehending the intent and meaning of MY ideas, so possibly these few statements that I've made are completely lost on you. I certainly am not comprehending the meaning of many of YOUR ideas due to what I percieve as a lack of explanation. For my sake, I would ask that you spend more time formulating and composing your sentences and that you address ONE idea at a time.

Thanks for your audience and participation in these discussions.

John, first of all I can't see any of your sentences as an attack because they are written with the purpose to further the debate. I'm not questioning your sincerity and you can swear if you'd like to emphasize your points (which I like very much ). But let's continue with the topic at hand.

I didn't read the whole thing because I had no time the last days, but I didn't want you to wait for some comment and if I would be wrong I could still adress that later on without you having to wait for an answer from me.

Now as I can see the problem lies with my paragraph that stated:

"When you ignore the individual and digitize the masses to social engineering statistics that will happen all over. Failure is built in these systems because it ignores the other side of humanity that science tries to learn and control of, spirituality. What the hell do these people think. If I put my head in the sand that it will go away? Hell no. There is more around you then you can even imagine. Why in logic's name would you want to use systems that oppress the individuals development by sucking them dry of their energy in form of money, motivation and intellect? The venus project is nothing more then the same experiment-failure that is called "the great work" by some. Why would one want to try that if you know that it's the same system packaged differently and optimized for more central control through the wrong use of technology?"

Let's dissect that:

When you ignore the individual and digitize the masses to social engineering statistics that will happen all over. Failure is built in these systems because it ignores the other side of humanity that science tries to learn and control of, spirituality.

Digitizing some visual element like a book or film or some aural element like music or voice is not what I'm talking about here of course. Even though in these cases the analog counterpart of the above mentioned elements are being degraded to digital data through sampling. I don't know much about how that goes on in video but in audio any type of re-sampling kills the original sound even if you sample it at let's say 32 bit with a 192 kHz sampling rate. Later on you have to pick that up and enhance it through various means but the end product is still degraded even though it is "polished" so to speak. (I recorded and mixed a lot of stuff before I got into this area of research so I know a little bit about this stuff).

I am studying business (in a college) and I read about statistics and how they work for the same aim as digitalization of music and optimization that is used in calculus for various reasons. Statistics take samples and boil down the rest to conform with these samples with no regard to uniqueness and of course unknown factors like spirituality and for example dark matter, Schumann Resonance or any other "occult knowledge".

Now let's look at it from the human factor. A human is composed of the physical part and the non-physical part am I right? We know more about the physical part (not all of it) but we almost know nothing about the non-physical part which is mostly addressed by ancient religions and mythology and also by the mystery religion and almost totally ignored by any modern school of thought connected with the masses, politics and science. That's why I used the term social engineering. Not that I know a whole lot about it but it is a good synonym and summary of the concept that I was adressing. No wonder communism and capitalism failed even though both of them were never applied on the world, only their tainted versions were and are around.

That's what I tried to connect here. That an approach to bring a new system that uses the old methodology is futile and empty rather then repairing and "upgrading" the old one. The basis is still empty and that makes it corruptible the same as our old systems. It's the same mentality that buys a new sink because it looks better. Repair your pipes damn it!

But let's continue:

What the hell do these people think. If I put my head in the sand that it will go away? Hell no. There is more around you then you can even imagine.

Well, this looks like that I was kinda ranting about the above mentioned topic. Your spiritual and non-physical aspects don't go away because you ignore them.

Why in logic's name would you want to use systems that oppress the individuals development by sucking them dry of their energy in form of money, motivation and intellect? The venus project is nothing more then the same experiment-failure that is called "the great work" by some. Why would one want to try that if you know that it's the same system packaged differently and optimized for more central control through the wrong use of technology?"

Now here I kinda summarized a lot and that's why it could look confusing or rant-like. I totally ignored the technological aspect here because I think it has been adressed enough and because technology advances even under our circumstances. The next step that the venus project talks about is nothing more then the same system except it will be more centralized and more suppressed.

Why? Because there will be no solution to the people that made it this way in the first place (not the politicians by the way. They are anchormen of the agenda). Cutting them off from the money? They make money and I'll love to see these people (or anyone) living on their own without any money. They could set an example for us at least with reality rather then visuals, aurals and books on the topic. But like the left wingers around here that are for the people and live in grand mansions across the Bosphorus they don't do that (kinda hard eh?).

In the next phase I can see nothing more then a centralized elite with all resources in their hands (because we handed them to them through the likes of the venus project) and a population controlled through something much more horrible then the rfid chip which is one in religion, nationality and totally devoid of individuality (I can be proven wrong since I didn't read all of their publications). How can they promise the opposite with all that Atlantis like civilization going. The centralization of all power is "the great work" imho and almost everyone is working for that endeavor with many pretexts (for the Israel in the bible (which i think was stated as spiritual Israel and not nuclear), the Maitreya, the return of "the Christ" or Christ and of course the ever popular anti-Christ).

Now let me adress the quote you gave from Fresco at the beginning and then I have to go get my ass kicked for being late at work

"...When education and resources are available to all without a price tag, there would be no limit to the human potential.

...The social designs that are proposed in this writing merely provide the opportunity for individuals to develop their fullest potential in whatever endeavor they choose without the fear of loss of individuality or submission to uniformity.

...People would be free to pursue whatever constructive field of endeavor they choose without any of the economic pressures, restraints, debts and taxation that are inherent in the monetary system of today."

-J.F.

Yeah well there is that small problem that stupid people can waste resources (a.k.a wars, killing of humans (which became sadly a resource in the modern paradigm: "Human Resources")). People have to earn things in my book like my friendship or companionship in any form because everyone can't handle anything. I wish everyone could (me included of course). So that priceless resource idea is not for me (or logically seen anyone). I mean you wouldn't give a gun to a chimp now would you? And a gun is wrong used technology. Like an A-Bomb is. The venus project fails at the machinised paradigm of good and evil here aswell imho but I'm saying that perhaps because I didn't read all of what they had to say. The second sentence I adressed to much anyway and the third is what free market economy is imho. Taxation is mostly based on bs people are too lazy to care for themselves (like paying education taxes in my telephone bill just because some moron in the government fudged up the budget that he created from the taxes of people too many times and schools because of this are deteriorating).

Well that's about it. I hope I got over better this time. Don't forget that I'm a Turkish guy struggling with a foreign language here and that I am just human. I make tons of mistakes and un-covered rants. I thank you John that you didn't dispose of me as "a ranting truth seeker" or "illuminati schill" and asked what I meant.

Take care my friend and everyone reading or not reading.

I'll try to go further in this article later on.

[optimistic]

There's a movie on his work 'Future by Design' on youtube.